Green Poet

I may be around for phase end. Would be willing to consolidate on a RD lynch. Having both of my top scumreads subbing out doesn't help with being able to further the cases, meh. Refa is still managing to be a null read for me. Mitsuki would be willing to consolidate on Proto, and I think I'm okay with that. Proto ISO and case: (I liked the formatting from my response to Eury so I'm going to do that again here) Proto's first game post: "My vote wasn't serious. Even scum wouldn't be stupid enough to think they can earn towncred by posting entertaining videos that are unrelated to the game." The wording feels off, considering that the dominant scum faction is informed, and less liable than town to make any stupid mistakes/posts. The vibe I get from this is very minor and somewhat difficult to describe, but I feel as though the wording tries to disassociate Proto from scum, as well as Proto from responsibility of his RVS vote ("My vote wasn't serious." But all RVS votes aren't serious, just like the one he proceeds to comment on...?). The video discussed here was clearly a joke, so that it warranted a mention worded in this way is just... odd. Reply to Eury (that I initially, and for most of D1, considered very townie): "Also, players can't be expected to have some deep thought and strong justification in every single post they make, so I find it pretty weird that you're asking me to justify what seems to be a normal response from hearing somebody else claim. Did you find my question to Poly to be suspicious or odd in some way?" As I've explained probably a couple times before, this struck me as townie because it's a blunt admission of having no reads. I reasoned that scum would try and come up with at least some half-assed response to every question instead of openly saying "No, you're right, I don't have strong ideas right now." However, such a conclusion is not inclusive of a situation in which scum tries to deflect the responsibility of having unique or insightful posts, which is what Proto is possibly doing here. "I find it pretty weird that you're asking me to justify X" can just as easily serve the same rhetorical purpose as "I don't want to/can't justify X." "Did you find my question to Poly to be suspicious or odd in some way?" This is a question scum asks when they want to know if they've triggered alarms. It's a self-centered question that aims to gather information about other players' impressions on themselves, rather than what others think about their question (which should be more important to town). Proto's Boron/eclipse case: "I don't like how she reacted to Paper's scum hydra theory. Sure, it's not definitively known whether SB would allow 3 Town Hydras or not, but this is Day 1 and we don't have any other definite information. So I wouldn't just disregard the idea as being "dumb" right off the bat. Well, considering that the scum hydra theory makes her one of the three lynch targets, I'm not surprised that she'd try to break that logic (even if she were Town), but I still think she looks worse than PoetMitsuki." This is scummy because it votes one player (Boronclipse slot) for a reason that could be exactly applied to another player (GP/M slot), but ignores the second player entirely. As in, you could literally replace the last word of this quote with "Boron/eclipse" and it would still make perfect sense. Proto doesn't list me as a scum read because "Poet seems to be pretty active and has been trying to approach everything in a clear logical manner (which is not necessarily townish, but it looks really good)." This doesn't explain specifically how I am acting logical, and he even qualifies this read by stating how it's not necessarily indicative of my towniness (but if that's true, why am I exempt from the same reasoning that he formed his last scumread around?). The difference is that I expressed a townread on Proto earlier. Scum!Proto benefits from having a townie buddy, so he wouldn't alienate them by grouping me together with his Boronclipse scumread, but town!Proto would have no reason to hold back on calling me out for doing the same thing Boronclipse did, since town!Proto would believe in the scuminess of the tell. Short post directly after the last: "(my post looks so big, despite having almost no content; Sorry, I'm not trying to pretend like I'm contributing a lot. I know I'm contributing almost nothing because I'm generally not a fan of Day 1 logic)" Just a display of self-consciousness. Theoretically a null tell but I think people can relate to how scum might end up posting this, especially after Proto's previous post which had some pretty selective scumreading, so scum!Proto could've posted this because the error bothered him. Flavorspec: "But anyway, I think SB was mainly setting up based on R1 or the first half of R2. I doubt he'd put spoilery stuff that are only valid for the second half. With Orange being suspected of being loyal to Rurushu, I'd say Miller is the perfect role for him." Basically, this attempts to validate that Orange = Miller. Proto telling Poly "Orange works as Miller, you're good" also attempts to validate that Poly = Orange. So Proto can be assumed to be pushing the idea that Poly = Miller, thus Poly = town. This tells us that it is not likely for Poly to be town/Miller if Proto is mafia, since clearing a townie would work against scum!Proto's wincon. Comment on Elieson's reaction test: "Also, if Elieson didn't actually roleblock Mitsuki, then I find his fakeclaim of doing so as being really weird. Reaction test or not, falsely claiming that he roleblocked Mitsuki sounds like a really stupid move. I hope he can elaborate on that once he's online." "really weird" and "a really stupid move" don't describe why Proto's specifically bothered by this. I think this is particularly telling because it emphasizes that lying is bad, rather than that the reaction test is bad. I don't see why lying would be inherently bad, or so obviously bad that Proto can assume people understand why just from him calling the gambit "really weird/really stupid." Asking Elieson to elaborate feels like rolefishing, like Proto's effectively saying "It would be bad if you lied. So you should confirm if you lied or not, and tell me if you're actually a hooker." TL;DR - would be ok with consolidating towards Proto. This scumread is still fairly weaker than my Marth read.

Also, him just offering a Paper townread is a very safe move given how much Paper /efforted in late D1 and did other townie-looking things

Now that I'm actually thinking about it, the fact that RD still lacks reads is very scummy As in, if you're consolidating a vote against someone in late D1 and then are not willing to vote them again immediately in D2 (esp. when they're a popular wagon and it looks like late D1 all over again except w/o the person who was actually lynched) there should be a very good reason for it No such reason presented + no other new reads presented = scum incapable of coming up with scumreads

two non-committal statements that I'd found scummy in your posts (1) artificial-feeling reply to Proto: "(At this point) It isn't necessarily an indicator either way imo, but I chose to ask anyways to see if anything could be gained as a whole from your response. (As I said in the "Tl;dr", I wanted to hear more thoughts, which you provided, so thank you for that.)" reads like you actually gleaned nothing from Proto's response ("it isn't ... an indicator either way" - so his response was non-indicative of alignment, or what you were originally looking for; "anything could be gained as a whole" - so nothing actually specific enough to quote in words?). due to implying that the questioning was successful in some way, despite not feeling like you actually gleaned anything, the questioning felt unnecessary + meant to appear contributory, thus scummy (2) the post containing the two-lane alley/head analogy "Clearly one person/head is working to help you, which is fine, but the other is clearly there to mess with you, or potentially get you killed. And the other one certainly isn't helping you by trying to lead you down the death pit, so it's by simple logic that he's thus antagonizing the situation. But how does the person who's relying on their information know who's telling the truth, and who is lying to them? This and the rest of the post that it was in felt like padding via discussion of hydras and what they represent in mafia rather than anything related to this particular game or its hydras. Yes, hydras have two people reading the game and thinking. Yes, hydras are less effective when their members disagree (eheheh mitsuki >.>). Yes, sure... a literal hydra whose heads are trying to mislead one another is bad. But this relates to the game obscurely at best, esp. when the question this was responding to was "How am I (Paper) scummy to you?" Also, I remember the two-lane situation as an analogy meant to model a particular type of game theory where one chooses a lane to run through based on the psychology of someone chasing them, not based on whether the lane is safe... so I was like "wat, I don't understand how is this analogy relevant to hydras, it looks more like it references a commonly known analogy so that it's not questioned and/or accepted as insightful" tbh your replies still haven't changed my opinions on these instances but I realize that they are comparatively small samples of your total text posted, and that I would need to read more of your walls in order to hold a most updated and inclusive opinion, which is why I'm more comfortable with voting Bluedoom now for his easy vote on you (and b/c the Mistuki whispering in my ear is telling me that you're obvtown but ehhhh) Also if I were scum!Eury during near-deadline D1 (approx. when you showed up and lurked the thread for a few mins) I would have voted the competing wagon on kirsche, since at least he wouldn't be the same alignment as scum!Eury. So while it's very scummy by policy that you didn't post during that crucial period, it's retrospectively actually an indication that you didn't take a scum-motivated opportunity tl;dr - here are my reasons for why I voted Eury, now I must regretfully inform y'all that I don't have a scumread on Eury anymore, I blame mistuki

This is literally the fourth time I am typing the same post due to backspacing the browser or something idk good lord it's extremely annoying Refa, how does Elie's reaction test contribute to your read/vote on him, if at all Junko, what's caused your Eury read to go from late D1's "slightly slightly town leaning" to the currently much stronger (paraphrased) "Eury is town and some of the cases on Eury are insubstantial"? I do agree that RD's vote is questionable but not for the same reason - RD voted Eury last phase, not this phase, so asking him to justify his current (nonexistent) vote is moot So RD's lack of a vote is questionable because something's made him no longer willing to vote Eury. RD, did you only vote Eury because of deadline pressure? What are your other reads? RD has expressed no reads today other than a shy Paper townread which doesn't mean much. Junko, pressure RD with me pls Bluedoom's Eury vote is scummy because it is not consistent with any previous Eury reads, in fact, he'd yet to talk about Eury at all prior to the vote. The willingnes to vote Eury is not previously explained, and very out of the blue (ha) He votes Eury to ask her what her reads are: and avoids stating whether or not he actually thinks she's scummy. The vote is there, a unique reason for it is not. This is probably an easy hop to the Eury wagon ##Unvote ##Vote: Bluedoom I have something to say about Poly's role but it's going to have to wait until I hear back from SB. But it will be good. If I get the answer I'm hoping to get. Hopefully.

whoa posts gotta read

Refa, why were Boron/eclipse and Elie the "only remaining people who can be scum"? Also, by virtue of kirsche flipping town, Poly's vote towards the end of the last day phase isn't bad. ..,well by that I mean it's still not great that he didn't talk about what he thought of Eury's posts at all before voting her, but the groundwork for having a krische townread was there in his quote that I posted just before hammer, and his vote reflects that he stuck to it. Poly is probably town because of this, actually, since scum would take the momentum and vote known-to-them-townie kirsche. (Unless Eury is also town.) And speaking of Eury, Mitsuki's expressed that she's not as certain in her Eury scumread after reading overnight. Going to check in with her on the reasoning behind it soon but I personally am still willing to vote her based off of yesterday's cases + her appearing in thread but not posting at deadline ##Vote: Eury

or no, that's a bit vague, maybe it was partially/implicitly justified, I mean to cite "DUNNO WHY KIRSCHE IS TUNNELLING SO HARD ON REFA. HIS CASE SEEMS FINE, BUT I DON'T GET WHY HE'S GOING SO HARD ON REFA WHEN NOBODY ELSE SEEMS TO SUSPECT HIM."

poly's kirsche townread was unexplained and I don't think he talked about eury at all prior to voting her. junko was "slightly townreading eury." the last time he discussed kirsche he was asking for someone to explain kirsche cases to him, dunno if he pointed out anything in particular that convinced him to vote kirsche

eury was online for a bit when we were inching closer to deadline

or any of the other 4 anons

Proto, your vote is on boronclipse and she's not viable rn, switch to kirsche please

she listposted a lot and had a lot of scumreads, which probs contributed to her becoming a wagon really quickly

Did you mean to vote Eury? o.o

mmk I'm here and should be around for phase end, though I'm deferring to Mistuki's judgment for the vote unless she's not around then and the situation is exceptional.

mm, we've talked somewhat but we're aiming to have consistency between reads when I do the eventual posting, so I won't be attributing certain parts of what I say to mitsuki's reads/reasoning and other parts to my own. unless there would be specific benefit to citing mitsuki herself, I'll just keep posting as I have been. other reads: (pedit: basically just Eury) -eury's first listpost/wallpost was good and all of her reads clearly did have thought put into them. the final bluedoom vote wasn't sheepy/derivative and it makes sense in the context of all her reads comparatively. -re: the second wallpost regarding hydras and how hydras are meant to be played... I don't particularly like it because it feels like she dwells a lot on the two-way alley analogy (which I thought was supposed to be an analogy reflective of a single person's psychology in terms of game theory, rather than two people's conflicting thoughts?) and I don't quite see how this is relevant to paper's questions. -agree with this: -eury's tangent on paper not seeming to address the possibility that his is a scum hydra slot is... interesting but not terribly relevant to paper's question imo: Why would this need to be established outside of pushing a paper scumread? it's implicitly acknowledged that paper's own slot could be scum, but unless he attempted to deny this possibility (which he hasn't afaik) there's no reason to point it out? tl;dr - seeing some portions of eury's posts (particularly reads) that are logical/clear, other times I read questions or exposition on certain topics that I don't think are relevant and it comes off as scummy and/or fluff. re: some people's mindset of "elie is just an easy vote/wagon right now because he hasn't posted much" Elie is equally likely to be inactive scum as inactive town. if people are going to refrain from voting/consolidating towards elie it should be because his lynch wouldn't yield many associative reads, not because the fact that he's posted infrequently somehow indicates that he's town.

I should add that my inability to solidly read Baldrick also makes it difficult to definitively consider Baldrick/Paperblade as scum. Paperblade pinging me + not having an inclination on Baldrick's alignment = "I'll vote that slot but I won't be happy about it."

Poly's case on me is underdeveloped and half of it wasn't relevant to my actual vote :/ Already explained that this was a pressure vote. It was invalidated once I realized that you have a new forum name, and had been posting, and that my vote on you was not serving its purpose. The reasoning was that Eury's questions to Proto were empty and artificial. There was nothing that could be gained from asking them, and her response to them was simply "OK, I like these answers" with no explanation as to why they were sufficient or what insight they provided. Empty questions/posts = potentially scummy. Pretty sure I spent a good three posts or so going over why I thought Eury's questions to him were fluff. The reasoning should have been clear. I'd clarified that I'd meant Baldrick rather than Eury long before Poly made this post. Sure, I can see how it'd be odd if I were to voice suspicion on Elie when I had basically not talked about him before that. Yes, the initial name mix-up was my mistake, but Boron understood immediately and no one commenting on my post was confused... I'm getting the feeling that Poly wasn't reading my posts very thoroughly when making this case. However, Poly did bring up how my lack of confidence in my Baldrick/Paperblade vote was an issue, which I definitely agree with (my hesitance when voting was pretty obvious. If I wasn't ready to discuss it when pressured, I'd have hid that hesitance. I'd also probably be scum.) Boron sheeped it later, so this addresses both: And actually, this is more or less accurate. Let me explain. My thought process was pretty much: Paper thinks it's scummy that I don't believe he 100% knows SB's mod meta? OK, I guess he's either scum who already knows the hydra slots' alignments, or he's very confident town who's trying to get me to sheep something I'm just not equally confident of. In either case, I should be careful and not quickly agree to his idea, and keep an eye on any scum intent associated with this idea if he tries to push it again some other time where it's even less applicable/safe. Not knowing much about SB's mod meta myself, I can't come to a straight conclusion as to whether or not Paper is scum. But given my current read, a vote on him is my what I am most comfortable with. Just from weighing what scum has to gain from making such a proposal, there is a fair chance that "let's lynch all the hydras" is a scum ruse. Add that to the sudden "well, SB confirmed that he randomized the slots, oh well!" and it just seems like a quick way to toss the idea without having to answer to those pointing out its flaws. It wasn't received well by either myself or Boron/eclipse, the other two hydras, but town!Paperblade would have less reason to allow this to dissuade him from pushing the idea if he thought it was actually good, and if he himself actually believed in it. After, all, Paper's own slot is a hydra, and since he was willing to risk having his own slot lynched when presenting this plan, why did he drop it so easily? His scumreads on Refa and myself consisted of just: and He used solely people's reactions to his idea to back his scumreads. You'd think there'd be more confidence in that idea. But there isn't, and that's scummy, so I'll be keeping my vote where it is.

Looks like I'm behind. Reading stuff now. If people have any questions for me right now, I'll answer those first.

still need to read Boron and Junko, will probably do that tomorrow when I'm free. signed up thinking I'd not be posting too much this time around and yet I've already sat here for hours arggh

@boron I just realized that poly is probably Blackhawk Sleeper, so I'll need to reread him. @refa -I think proto is pretty tonwie, went over one of his responses to eury and it was very genuine sounding + didn't have to come up with an empty response to hide lack of content -I've been questioning blitz and baldrick's play somewhat but I don't think either of them have done anything that sticks out to me as necessarily or probably scummy. Baldrick did get us out of rvs and while the questions he asked in order to do it can be seen as overreacting/paranoid, I don't think it's as scummy as blitz made it sound. Blitz could also be onto something with what he sees in elie-baldrick-eury interactions but it would probably be more relevant when elie has posted more -I think I'm not understanding what paper's saying sometimes. maybe it could be seen as scummy to disagree with paper's analysis that one out of three hydras is definitely mafia from the viewpoint of someone who's made games before? And I don't understand his most recent post much at all There's probably some connection I'm assumed to be able to make but can't. /shrug "If there are no mafia among the hydras then Refa is scum" is what I'm getting but idk what leads to that conclusion. Was there ever a case? Basically I can't follow paper's thinking yet. The sudden sweeping statements + lack of explanation makes it difficult to read him. -I thought I was onto something with Eury's questions to Proto, though possibly the plain honesty of proto's response caused me to conversely assume scuminess in Eury's questioning? Eury does begin her games with a lot of questions to everyone so I'm possibly trying to believe too much in an ED1 gutread than I should. Initially pinged me as possibly scummy. Her recent response was fine. ##Unvote ##Vote: Paperblade/Baldrick not thrilled about this vote but it's more relevant than keeping a vote on poly, for whom my previous reason for voting suddenly no longer applies.

Has he changed his name recently? If he really has been posting I haven't been able to tell, gonna check

Eury or Baldrick, I mean. Don't have enough of an opinion on Elie yet. uhh hmm I get that this is a gut vote, maybe I'm coming off as too apathetic or something? to clarify though my stance is slightly indecisive on paper's idea since I've yet to try designing a mafia game and/or accommodate hydra slots in a setup, so I can't jump to agreement or disagreement that SB would definitely do one thing or another with hydra slot alignments. it's not something I have a preformed opinion on, so paperblade's response that I was trying to weasel out of something that wasn't cleared to me as 100% reliable rasied a flag. sorry if that's not the answer you're looking for lol

Poly vote was from rvs/placeholder vote until he posts, which he hasn't yet. I've been considering switching my vote to either eury or elie, and will probably do so later on. dunno what you mean by exaclty passive approach though, if you want elaborate reads on specific people, let me know. otherwise I've just been spitballing immediate thoughts on people's posts and don't have much more to add atm. the passivity might also be the perceived difference from how I'm playing/typing differently from a few months back in my last game, possibly.

this is basically saying "gp is scummy because she disagrees with my proposition for lynching." no, convince me why SB would definitely have one or more mafia hydra slots. convince me why the concerns I've raised about the plan should be put to rest, rather than telling me that having concerns is scummy. i have.