Vykan12

Rofl I think I have myself a new sig.

\begin{serious post} Let's arbitrarily compare both characters at 20/1, which isn't entirely unreasonable considering characters tend to cap their level before getting access to a promo item in this game. It also shows how both units are doing after a good period of development, but not so much so that we're only talking about a few lategame chapters remaining. 20/1 Lugh: 29.5 hp, 15.6 mag, 16.5 skl, 16.5 spd, 7.8 def, 12.7 res, 11 luck 20/1 Lilina: 27.6 hp, 21.8 mag, 11.8 skl, 13.6 spd, 4.9 def, 15.6 res, 13.5 luck Since there's no Lugh fanboys here to worry about, we can openly concede that Lilina wins magic, resistance and luck. What remains to be done is convince the Lilina fanboys that Lugh's leads actually exist. Lilina has a 32% chance to have 29 hp or higher. Lugh has a 68% chance. Clearly, 68 > 32. Lilina has a 6% chance of having 16 skl or higher. Lugh has 68 again. Clearly 68 > 6. Lilina has an 18% chance of having 16 spd or higher. 68 > 16. Lilina has an 8% chance of having 8 def or higher. Lugh has a 55% chance. 55>8. You can check for yourself here and here if you don't believe me. Unless you're questioning probability distributions such as this, or the growths of the characters, everything stated so far is objectively true. \end{serious post}

I can't tell if people are being serious or playing along or both... anyway, I noticed failmaster actually posted another Lugh hatred video 5 days ago, so clearly he doesn't listen, to our amusement I suppose. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPHLmzQ_Gys...re=channel_page

Even assuming his growths DO suck, what matters is average stats, availability, supports, performance relative to enemies, and other situational factors affecting Lowen such as map size, enemy frequency, special weapon/item availability, etc. If you think Lowen is a bad paladin, you've yet to see the likes of Fiona, Jeigan, Amelia, Conomore, and a couple other people who were named already.

More like a unit with low move and who isn't hitting any caps without abusive measures. Too many? The frequency of units in a specific class doesn't matter in the least. As an easy example, you want a hell of a lot more paladins on your team than snipers.

It took you months to get past 2-E? Ouch. Even with a completely untrained set of units, it can be beaten rather trivially by putting unarmed, durable units at chokepoints and waiting out the 15 turns.

I think you’re exaggerating the 2HKO thing (this can be checked with enemy stats, too lazy to do it now), though more importantly, the Wo Dao is Mia’s best weapon here, as it gives her >50% crit chance in 2 hits against anything she faces, substantially higher with adept in case she gets it. Considering not even w1n GMs like Titania and Gatrie can even double yet, Mia’s actually one of your better offensive units in these 2 chapters. There are 6 buyable wyrmslayers over the course of the game. That is indeed true. Mia develops her supports earlier, at any rate. She also has constant player phase whereas Ranulf needs olivi grass every 2-3 turns. Later on, tempest blades show up, and Mia gets hit from her affinity to offset the tempest blade’s horrible 55 hit rate. Ranulf also cannot use forged weapons (which are infinite in this game and fairly cost efficient), or other killer/special weapon types. I think you mean 2 round. You seem to like to ignore avoid, of which there is a huge disparity between Mia and Soren. That doesn’t prevent her from getting partial durability boosts. That’s not a terribly concerning issue with how high activation rates can get. For instance, with 32 spd and 25 display crit, the odds of at least one adept, astra or crit in 2 hits is 82%, and even removing adept from the equation, still amounts to 61%. Also, you can plan which weapons to use in a specific situation, meaning Mia could use her 61-82% activation with say, a steel/silver blade vs generals, or when going against a group of much less durable enemies like warriors/halberdiers, she can opt to use a killing edge and up her activation above 90%. What’s wrong with that? 120-94 = 26, which is 13.78 true. If you give her a wind/thunder support, then her avo goes up by 8, at which point she’s only facing 6.6 true. You’re exaggerating. The only part 3 enemies I know of who reach 150ish hit are enemy priests, and they have low att. There’s also some 140-150 hit generals in 4-E-1, but that’s a lot later on. And you also have to consider Mia’s avoid growth, which is 165%, in addition to the jumps associated with promotion and support building. She’ll pass 100 avo rather quickly. Really now? I’ve seen her one round enemies with steel blades in 3-2 NM, how much stronger do you think these HM enemies are? In any case, we can always check int’s enemy stats to verify your claims. This is a pretty generalizing argument. As a simple counter, a lot of GMs still have trouble doubling in third tier, especially stuff like those 4-4 enemies (you need 29-30 spd to double consistently there), and obviously Mia’s faring better in 2-3 attacks (considering proc%ages) than others are in 1. You can say this to try and make anyone look bad (why the hell do I need Gatrie and his low ass move when I can h3x 4-1 and 4-4 with the likes of Ike, Nailah and Titania?). Try and avoid arguments about the necessity of a unit, as it is not an accurate reflection of a unit’s worth.

Of course not. That could only hold true if both debaters were of exactly equal ability, and both considered just about every existing facet of the game affecting the characters in question. Though yes, as far as I know, Marisa is higher on the tier list than Ross.

Since this debate is already over, I’ll just name some things I spotted on both ends. ZXValaRevan Don’t forget that Ross also gets something like 30-40 exp per atk, so he’ll be maxing out his trainee level before that in all likelihood. You shouldn’t be comparing iron axe Ross to Shamshir Marisa. The former has an inexpensive, buyable weapon, the latter is holding just about the opposite; an expensive, finite weapon that many other people want. Even though Marisa starts with the weapon, she can easily trade it away even during that chapter. Avoid is better than both of those tiny concrete durability leads because of the 2RN system. Not really. If Marisa is that much better on offence, she’ll be accumulating kills and thus exp much faster than Ross. The 4 level disparity between them isn’t enough to offset that. Not sure why you didn’t mention Joshua or Colm. Marisa has one of the best support lists in the game, so it’s odd why you wouldn’t want to emphasize how each of her options are legitimately possible. Something you neglected is that if Ross isn’t doubling, he might as well up his damage with a steel axe. There is a good chance that ross does about the same damage in 1 hit as Marisa does in 2 if he goes steel. This is a joke, right? Ross’ hp and def leads don’t even allow him to take an extra hit. However, 34 avo is a ridiculous lead. If Ross faces 50% real hit, Marisa faces 5% real. Yes, her odds of getting hit are 10x less likely than Ross in those situations. Even if Ross faces 80% real, she’s facing 25% real, so she’s still 3x less likely to be hit. This was probably the biggest opportunity you missed in your opener, though you did mention it in a counter somewhere. Last thing, you omitted mentioning stuff like Ross’ garm use, or how buyable special weapons decrease the gap between their offensive performance lategame, though I can understand why you’d omit that. Camtech075 You don’t elaborate on the significance of either. Particularly, the 1-2 range is a major point, as Marisa’s doing 0 damage vs javelins/hand axes/anything mage that Ross is countering, so he auto-wins there, and having 1-2 range detracts enemies from attacking you on enemy phase, which is a durability win for Ross. As for the critavo, you need to show which enemies actually have a critical rate on Marisa and contrast it to Ross. This made me laugh pretty hard. ZxValaRevan addressed it in any case. This isn’t how you go about showing Ross has supports. You have to go over every option (Garcia, Amelia, Lute, Ewan, Gerik), disregard the low tier characters since they aren’t likely to be played in accordance with Ross (leaves you with Lute and Gerik), then argue why those 2 characters have a free slot for Ross by showing that their alternative options suck. I’d go about it something like this: Gerik has Innes, Tethys, Marisa, Saleh, Joshua and Ross. (give quick reasons disregarding Innes and Marisa). The tethys support is impractical because it is difficult to get a dancer who is going about everywhere reviving units to somehow end her turn besides Gerik, so that’s unlikely. That leaves Saleh, who is route dependant, and Joshua, who isn’t exactly top tier so there’s a somewhat decent chance of him not being played, which means Gerik taking a Ross support is far from implausible. You could also cover support bonuses. For instance, Gerik would rather take Ross than Joshua since he wants avoid more than critical evade, which can also be said of the Saleh support. That point can be used against you. Once you pull the “Ross can double because SS enemies stink” card, then suddenly Marisa’s below average atk isn’t a big deal since she’s still one rounding enemies. In general I’d avoid claims about the game’s difficulty alone as much as possible when defending a point, as it’s much more effective just to use an enemy sample to prove your point. And in the process, Ross loses atk and 1-2 range, which doesn’t help your case. You should argue that him having 2 weapons offsets Marisa’s avoid advantage since he can manipulate weapon triangle advantage in his favor more often. Survivability and durability are essentially the same thing in terms of FE debating terminology. What you are describing is raw defence, or hit sustainability, which is merely one aspect of durability. Actually, your definition of survivability is a bit off too. Avoid has nothing to do with how many times you can get attacked, it has to do with reducing the probability of getting hit, and in some cases, dying. A unit with good survivability is one who can stay on the frontlines with little risk of dying and/or very little need to heal frequently.

First of all, don't put resolve on Boyd. Rather, once you get resolve (chp 28 technically), put it on Ike, mainly to make killing Ashnard easier. If you saved wrath, put that on him too. Second, why put vantage on Soren when you can get 2 characters to have the wrath + vantage combo? In other words, put it on Neph instead. That frees up an adept you can put on someone else like Tanith.

You're opening in Oscar vs Calill, right Camtech?

Okay, in that case I request that a moderator changes the topic title of my debate with camtech such as to prevent confusion.

If you've never debated before, you don't want to go vs me with a fair match-up since I have quite a bit of experience with the debating process. Since you mentioned FE9 HM, how about you take Oscar and I'll defend Calill?

Tino, let me remind you that you have this and this which aren't finished yet >_> If you're not interested in those match-ups anymore, just tell meh. In other news, bored silly these days and the gfaqs and FEP debates are progressing slow as molasses. How about some FE10 Mordecai vs Boyd?

*Searches topic for youtube link showing POR sol activation* *Finds lame one liner discussion about why Rolf sucks* Anyway, if this is true, then Soren will actually be durable enough to frontline post promotion when combined with his B Ike support.

Nathan, I think you're exaggerating the whole "only in lategame" deal. Ilyana lv 20/1 (B Mordecai): 30.3 hp, 6.5 str, 17.0 mag, ~9 crit, 15.2 spd, 9.1 def, 21.0 res, 12.3 cev, 42.7 avo Soren lv 20/3 (B Ike): 31.5 hp, 3.0 str, 20.5 mag, ~10 crit, 18.4 spd, 7.1 def, 20.4 res, 11.3 cev, 63.1 avo Soren wins across the board. On offence, he has +3.5 mag (7.0 per double), 3.2 AS and even slightly more crit. Durability wise, 20.4 avo is leagues beyond 2 def and 1 res. As for tome weight, Ilyana only wins AS if Soren equips bolganoe, thoron, a seige or an S rank tome, while tying with elthunder and winning with everything else. Since they're roughly the same level, might as well just compare growths for the future, though Ilyana might pick up a Zihark support on the way if either of Brom or Muarim isn't used (+10 avo and +2 def). Differential (+ for Ilyana, - for Soren): 0% hp, +20% str, -10% mag, -10% skl, -10% spd, 0% def, -5% res, +10% luck Soren wins in everything important (mag, skl, spd) while only losing luck (lol), so Ilyana's strength growth advantage is all she's got to look forward to. So I'd say Soren is in fact winning by a lot.

Faster supports too *looks at B Ike*

What the? A skill archetype? Skill isn't even that useful a stat. I see cavalier patterns more in pairs. Red + green FE5: Kein + Alva (?) FE6: Alan + Lance FE7: Kent + Sain FE8: Forde + Kyle FE9-10: Kieran + Oscar

Give everyone either SS rank, preferential, brave or forged weapons. It's that simple. And if you have any heated competition for a specific weapon, you could just add a laguz to your roster instead. Even if you didn't raise any, the laguz royals are already more or less superior to anyone in your army at base level.

In that case, drop Amelia, Ross, Neimi and Ewan from your team since they are among the worst units in the game (well not Ross so much, but he's still pretty bad). Also, you're missing a lot of B supports. I'd reccomend the following replacements: Seth (supports Eirika and Natasha, also the best unit in the game) Franz (supports Seth and Natasha, also arguably the second best unit in the game) Cormag (supports Tana, Natasha and Seth) Tethys (supports Gerik, and dancers are amazing units in general)

Rate the team based on what? How good the units are? How their personalities are? How they perform in CC? All you asked is whether your team is good, which is ambiguous.

That sucks. Maybe try someone like Morva or Lyon then.

Dart joins in 19, Hawkeye joins in 23. So Dart has 4 levels to level up before Hawkeye joins, 5-6 when considering gaidens. Considering he joins at level 8 but with 12 str, 8 spd and axes, he will both level fast and shouldn’t have too much trouble killing enemies. Another thing is if Rebecca is in play, their C support only takes 16 turns, so Dart could have that when Hawkeye joins. Assuming maybe 1.4 levels per chapter, that would put Dart at lv 16/0, give or take a few. Dart lv 16/0 (C Rebecca): 40 hp, 18 str, 10 crit, 13 spd, 8 def, 2 res, 37 avo, 6 cev, 10 con Hawkeye lv --/4: 50 hp, 18 str, 22 crit 11 spd, 14 def, 10 res, 35 avo, 13 cev, 16 con All I’ve got to say is Dart is losing decisively here. On offence, they tie in attack, so it’s basically 12 crit vs 2 AS, but hawkeye also has a huge 6 con lead, meaning if both are using steel axes, then Hawkeye is actually faster, for what that’s worth. I can see Dart’s spd advantage as being significant, but I wouldn’t be able to know for sure without some enemy samples. Then again, before I forget to mention it, Hawkeye wins hit by more than 10 points if C Rebecca doesn’t happen, so Hawkeye is in all likelihood winning offence by a bit. But the dagger comes in the durability comparison. Hawkeye has a whopping 10 hp, 6 def, 8 res and 7 crit evade lead on Dart. All Dart has to match that is… 2 avo. I could easily see Hawkeye being able to take twice as many hits as Dart based on these leads, especially if the enemies have a hard time breaking 20 att. Skipping along to Dart’s promotion: Dart lv 20/1 (B Rebecca): 46 hp, 22 str, 30 crit, 16 spd, 10 def, 5 res, 49 avo, 7 cev, 13 con Hawkeye lv --/7: 52 hp, 19 str, 22 crit, 12 spd, 15 def, 11 res, 38 avo, 14 cev, 16 con Now Dart is clearly winning offence. How much such a lead will matter I’ll leave Mekkah to determine. On the durability end, Hawk’s leads have decreased to 6 hp, 5 def, 6 res and 7 crit eva. Well tbh, Dart is still getting h3xed by Hawkeye in this department, and the only thing he has going for him is that 11 avo lead (which falls to 1 if Rebecca’s not used), and what’s worse is I’m pretty sure 49 avo is not generally too reliable. So, imo Hawkeye is still winning. Just to prove a point, let’s jump way into the future. Dart lv 20/10 (A Rebecca): 53 hp, 29 str, 37 crit, 22 spd, 12 def, 6 res, 69 avo, 10 cev, 13 con Hawkeye lv 20/12: 54 hp, 21 str, 23 crit, 13 spd, 16 def, 13 res, 42 avo, 16 cev, 16 con At this point, Dart’s offensive leads are wtfhuge. 8 att, 9 spd and 14 crit leads are nothing to ignore, but these are slightly mitigated if Hawkeye is fully supported now. Moreover, Hawkeye has 73% crit per hit with a killer axe, so it’s not as though he cannot kill anything. Tbh I think most of Dart’s leads are overkill, which just means his killing reliability is asymptotically close to 100% whereas Hawkeye isn’t quite so reliable, particularly if he’s not doubling anything (which I doubt, considering Marcus is somehow doubling things, and has less con). And, no matter how hard he tries, Dart never seems to win durability. He’s still losing everywhere he was before (1 hp, 4 def, 7 res and 6 crit evade), which at least at this point is debatable against 27 avoid. As far as I can tell, Hawkeye is definitely better. First of all, if neither is supported (which is quite likely), then Hawkeye wins indisputably. The closest Dart ever gets to beating Hawkeye’s durability was outlined in the above comparison, but without Rebecca he loses 15 avo, so now it’s 1 hp, 4 def, 7 res and 6 crit evade vs 12 avo, at which point the choice seems obvious to me. So I think it’s well established Hawkeye wins durability forever, and Dart is only really winning offence reliably about half the time. Considering the proof of how badly HHM enemies fail, it seems really, really obvious to me who is superior. Edit: Oh, and Hawkeye wins hit rate forever if Becky doesn't support Dart, and by margins of ~7-15 the entire time they're mutually available. If Dart has any trouble hitting things, then that just makes offence more arguable than it currently is. Also, Dart is 50g more expensive than Hawkeye in funds, which just adds to the list of things going in favor of the shirtless 'zerker.

Well, bows start at E rank, so they're not even superior to begin with, and even if they get to be, it's that vs javelins we're talking about, so the difference is still rather minimal. Another thing is having lances doesn't simply have WT control advantages... you also get more access to special weapons. Why only be able to use a braxe axe when you can use a brave lance as well? Same applies to killers, laguzslayer type weapons, all of which are finite in this game. Sure, you could say the same for bows, but that only applies once every turn unless you make a situational trade.

What happens if you stone Fomortiis?