Vykan12

If you don’t want to debate then there is no purpose in posting in a topic about a unit’s relative use compared to others. Or more precisely, they don’t understand that their own personal outcome for a character’s development in a playthrough has virtually no meaning due to the random nature of levelling. They also don’t seem to understand that probability theory accounts for as many outcomes as you wish, and as such theorizing has infinitely more value than simply accumulating numerous people’s opinion of a character in their respective playthroughs. I think your use of the word hardcore is somewhat unwarranted. You don’t need experience to understand the fundamentals of debating, just a solid sense of logic and possibly a little mathematical knowledge. Anyways, assuming I could be considered a “hardcore” debater, I do not assume most other people are willing to spend hours examining a unit’s performance to burn time. In fact, I’m quite aware that only a handful of people on FE forums care to debate to this extent and most others are more than satisfied to give one line answers, if that. I do not have a problem with this in the least, though it bothers me somewhat to see a person such as luigi bros persist in supporting their character as superior based on clearly fallible logic. In case you are not aware, 20/20 stats only reflect a unit’s lategame performance, which is not even applicable to this game since a realistic endgame level is more along the lines of 20/10. The problem I see here and possibly with most other posters who think 20/20 stats are everything is that they do not care in the slightest about efficiency and thus do not see the value in base stats, joining situation, availability, etc. and for some puzzling reason put an excruciatingly large amount of emphasis on a unit’s potential, particularly their performance in the game’s final chapter. The statistics you present have no meaning unless compared to relevant enemies or other playable characters. For all we know, every other character could average 30+ in every stat at base level, meaning your Lilina was terrible. Of course that is not the case but you should nonetheless see how useless it is to boast about your character without any contrast to others. This just proves my point that those who make the most elementary debating blunders don’t care in the slightest about efficiency. Even supposing Lilina could solo chapter 21, such a strategy is pointless when you could reach the throne sooner using a team at max deployment. Another issue here is that you are showing no recognition to the blatant kill favoritism you are giving to Lilina by having her solo the map. You need to recognize that doing this for most other characters would result in the same outcome, so it doesn’t serve much value in measuring a unit’s relative use. What makes you think debates using statistics is pointless, at least relative to debating with personal experience? I don’t see how this has relevance to your previous comment. However, it is a valid presumption that if a player is aiming to beat the game efficiently then he/she is more likely to use good characters than bad ones. I’ve re-read this excerpt multiple times and still cannot distinguish fully its meaning. Anyway, although 1 debater does not represent all, the only conflicts that should pertain to an individual debater is if they are making invalid suppositions (eg/ vastly over-estimating gained levels over 3 chapters) or if a comparison is decided almost purely by subjective factors (eg/ 1-2 range vs healing). Otherwise, what a debater says could more or less be considered factual since it is impossible to argue with the consistency of numbers (for instance, Lugh having a speed advantage in this comparison in all likelihood). It would be foolish to think that debaters are “ripping other posters apart” as an act of displaying intellectual superiority or something. It’s all a matter of being bored and suitably annoyed with someone’s persistently flawed posts. Not just the average Lilina, but as many Lilinas that one has the patience to account for. There is a reason people bring up pre-promotes as being RNG proof; if Lilina is stat screwed or blessed, Cecilia will not be affected herself until she begins to level up, and since Cecilia has fewer level-ups to gain, she’ll face a lower stat deviation than Lilina. Then considering how they compare when taking various support partners, along with considering how realistic any of those hypotheticals are, and things can get rather complicated (as they are supposed to in a comparison seeking an accurate conclusion). And yet another flaw that commonly presents itself in people who over-emphasize 20/20 stats and all that jazz… how much you like a character has no relevance to their performance in the game since personality traits do not have an effect on growth rates or anything of the sort. Understand that although there is no right or wrong when it comes to opinion, one’s opinion must have some sort of foundation. It’s already been pointed out in detail as to why personal experience is insufficient support in defending a character’s performance value. I don’t particularly feel like going through the remainder of the thread… it’s really just recurring themes and it’s tiring to try to address every point when it reaches such a point of redundancy.

Before this gets forgotten, let's cover one of the easiest chapters to tier. ======= Chapter 5x ======= Obama tier Orson Sarah Palin tier Ephraim Kyle Forde

Hmm... I tried it out with the savestate I made for you. Although I can get Ephraim within seize range, I can't achieve any means to get an attacker close enough to Orson. A bolting or purge attack would've worked, but none are technically available at this point in the game. Here's the 1 turn attempt I was describing above

What about Tauroneo, the laguz alliance, the BK, Nailah and Rafiel? Also, you'll probably want to use Jill to support Volug.

The run's been published

Whether it’s arena abuse or babying, Lilina has to do this whereas Lugh does not, which is a rather major advantage for Lugh. That’s impossible. For Lilina to be the best healer in the game, she’d need to have an A rank upon promotion. Once that happens then yes, Lilina could possibly heal more than people like Saul and Ellen (note that they probably have a rather sizeable level lead, though). But how much value would that even entail? Maybe 2-3 warp spaces and the ability to heal severe wounds slightly better… not nearly a good enough pay-off for the amount of work put into making Lilina promote reasonably early. How is Lugh not able to do this? Also, most of your other mages don’t have trouble both attacking and healing. The fact that you’re insisting that Lilina heals full time suggests her durability really is quite bad even with all the favoritism you’re giving her. This is going by the assumption that Lilina can somehow do more damage in one hit than Lugh can do in two in most situations. 20/3 Lilina: 29 hp, 23 mag, 12 skl, 14 spd, 5 def, 16 res, 15 cev 20/3 Lugh: 31 hp, 16 mag, 18 skl, 18 spd, 8 def, 13 res, 12 cev Assuming the most common situation is Lugh doubling and Lilina isn’t, then enemies need to have more than 20 resistance for Lilina to win damage output, which definitely isn’t true for most, if not all, melee enemies. Of course, Lilina wins offence when both or neither double, so feel free to show that such a situation occurs often based on enemy stats. I’m not sure how you’re judging Lugh’s lategame performance on generals (most likely PEMN), but if damage is the issue, just have him use a stronger tome. There is, however, no compensation for poor AS other than body rings and speedwings. That and babying already has her resource consumption well above the average unit. She’d have to blow Lugh out of the water at comparable levels to have any shot at winning such a comparison, and clearly she doesn’t. Or, you could give the similar things to Lugh so that their resource consumption is similar, at which point Lugh is obviously still ahead. Since when do supports give AS? Lilina doesn’t somehow get so much mag that she can 1HKO most targets on the map. Oh, and her support options are pretty cruddy. Roy will take Alan and Lance before her, so she might only get a C out of him. This leaves her the likes of Bors, Barth, Oujay, Gonzales, Marcus, Wendy, Garret, Astohl and Cecilia. Nevermind Bors, Barth, Marcus, Wendy or Garret for being lolterrible. Astohl is fielded mostly for thieving utilities and Cecilia is her slowest support (50+1), so forget those as well. That really just leaves Oujay and Gonzales to fall back on, and it’s unlikely that both are in play at the same time.

Generally I lure Joshua in with an unarmed Seth or Gilliam, then recruit him, something which can generally be done fairly quickly without employing any real risk. I don't see many outcomes where Joshua is recruited when the map's more than halfway done, especially since the majority of the enemies are at his longitude or higher (as in further north of his starting position). Edit: Oh yeah, and I agree with everything else you said.

This is a really easy map compared to the others, in the sense that almost no one will have trouble doubling. For that reason, reaching the enemies sooner takes the most priority in this level, which is why Franz should be > Garcia. Vanessa also shines on this level though you didn’t include her. Probably around where Garcia or Franz is, though maybe even higher since she can really get ahead of the main group with her flying advantages, do things like javelin from a mountaintop, etc. I also think Artur could go above Gilliam since he is probably the best unit for taking out all those eyeball d00ds and the difference between Gilliam and Artur’s durability isn’t quite that large when considering 1-2 range and the low enemy frequency. What puts Ross so much higher than Artur and Lute? Ross will basically be attacking with a hatchet all the time, and Artur and Lute are probably out-damaging him, though perhaps I’m under-estimating a 10/1 Ross. Plus of course Joshua is better than Ross even despite joining maybe on turn 3-5 since he comes with a killing edge you likely won’t trade away immediately (in fact I’m not sure anyone else has the rank to use it), and Joshua’s one of the only units who can consistently double anything at this point, meaning he’s out-damaging people like Garcia even if he has less attack power. Perhaps I should start running some numbers soon since we’re getting far enough into the game where these judgments aren’t just intuitive.

Update: CrimsonFlash21 and Anouleth have timed out while Charmander forfeited. Mekkah has until tuesday to respond. In case you're wondering, I let Reikken post rather late since he PMed me and we worked out an agreement.

Joshua lv 14/0: 31 hp, 11 str, 18 skl, 19 spd, 7 def, 4 res, 10 lck Marisa lv 5/0: 23 hp, 7 str, 12 skl, 13 spd, 4 def, 3 res, 9 lck Marisa gets beaten handidly upon joining time, and this is without even factoring Joshua's possible C-B Artur and/or Natasha supports. In terms of growths, (+ for Marisa, - for Joshua): -5% hp, -5% str, 0% skl, +5% spd, -5% def, +5% res, +20% lck Joshua actually leads in the important growths aside from spd (though lol at him not doubling), so Marisa won't even really close the stat gap as the level gap decreases. Even this short analysis is already showing Joshua >>> Marisa.

Well technically, she's the only one who got off her ass and bought a USBgecko. I could do that I suppose and figure out how to h4x the game, but I have other pre-occupations at the moment. Edit: Also, lol at animations being on. That pretty much ruined the video for me.

Mage Knight- Even if you're going to creature campaign and care about caps, mage knight's mobility boost is a lot more appreciated than increasing the character's overkill offensive paramaters. Druid- Allows the character to use anima tomes, meaning no more lame speed loss from heavy dark tomes. Bishop- Slayer and exp gain bonus obviously makes this the better choice.

The BK is one of those few playable characters in the series who's forced to die because of the plot, so I don't see much reason to rank him. Though, if he were ranked, he'd probably be somewhere near Nailah.

Why do you care so much about his opinion other than to support your own feelings about a character? He even says in his character review topic "now with pure bias!!!", which should indicate to you that his opinions don't say much about the objective worth of a character relative to others.

If you consider using just Edward and Nolan as easier than some alternative team selection you've been using, then why do you need our help? Also, I didn't notice that 80% of your TC post was about which weapon to give them in 4-E (I was admittedly skimming). If that's your pre-occupation, then you're not going to have much fun babying units for 95% of the game to prepare for the easiest 5% that's remaining. If you want to take such an approach, I reccomend arena abusing in FE6-7 instead as a means to satisfy your desire for seeing rapid unit growth.

You guys haven't even pointed out most of the problems with Meg. Anyone can be an excellent unit in this game, especially with how the BEXP system works. However, being a marshall only lets her have a 31 speed cap, which means she'll be unable to double spirits without Nasir and auras, period. Oh, and nothing besides celerity or boots repair her crap move. So even at max potential, Meg has little to offer vs other units who've capped everything. Now, backtrack to part 1. Sucktackular joining situation. Joins as a level 3 unit when most of your units are lv 7-10, and her bases aren't somehow excellent to compensate for this disadvantage. Without giving her BEXP, she's already getting 1RKOed by a good portion of 1-4 enemies. So congrats on being the worst unit in the DB before their pre-promo hax even joins. Though, even if you do baby her to hell, she has 5 move and faces more movement loss than the average unit from passing through grass or moving up tiles. Considering how much of these there are in maps such as 1-6, 1-7 and 1-E, Meg isn't even reaching enemies, much less killing them. Then let's look at her "potential" which the TC is hyping. With her spd cap issues and poor affinity, her avoid will only be decent at best, so her 35% def growth is killing her, especially in chapters like 3-6 and 3-13 where the enemies are both highly accurate and damaging. On offence, by the time she overcomes her inability to double enemies, she's barely doing any damage due to swords + 35% str growth. There really is nothing redeeming about her, and she's easily one of the worst units in the game.

Tips? You won't have any problems in part 1, so just give Nolan beastfoe + crossbow in 3-6, and Eddie resolve + cancel. 3-12 is lulz and 3-13 is just a matter of either killing Ike really fast with an astra manipulation or something, or unarmed chokepoint concoction popping. I'm not sure what makes this challenge remotely interesting for you, though.

Reaching enemies sooner = facing more enemies, so it does indeed have combat benefits. Where did the topic creater specify that the benefit could only be considered for direct fighting paramaters only?

I don't want to partake in this too much, though there is one thing I wanted to address. People counter PEMN by saying averages account for very few gameplay possibilities. However, that is ignoring things like chances to reach x in a stat or lower, which you can find on a lot of sites that contain averages. One's ability to analyze the game is limited only to the amount of data they can collect. All that personal experience contributes to an argument is knowledge about certain factors about the maps, chapter length, objectives, etc. but even those things can be found by watching videos or reading the arguments of others.

I'd assume Roy is partaking in the Roy-Alan-Lance support triangle for obvious reasons, and at best Lilina gets a C from him. Edit: D'oh, Mekkah beat me to it lol

I agree with Mekkah here. Bad joining time, never has any real means to achieve good durability and doubling ability. The only thing that saves her from being awful is having as many support options as Roy and a high mag growth, meaning she can at least decently injure things later on in a single hit.

It is largely impossible to determine the most important stat given the large number of hypotheticals which shift the value of each individual stat. Here's a breakdown: Hp- You must have a sufficient amount if you have no way to avoid damage. What's the point of having h3x stats everywhere if 1 hit is going to kill you? From that basis alone, hp already serves a vital function. Str- So long as the weapons you wield alone are enough to injure the enemy, then strength cannot claim the same type of importance that hp does. Though assuming the opposite, then both hp and strength become equally as vital, assuming the goal of the map involves mandatory enemy kills. Skl- Definitely not vital because of the high base value of hit that weapon have, as well as the fact that crits are never truly necessary. Spd- Doubling an enemy is nice but if you do not damage them, it is of no consequence. Thus, strength easily trumps speed in importance under that assumption. Luck- Gives minor boosts to avoid, hit and crit. Since neither stat is truly necessary, neither is luck. Def- If your defence is high enough that enemies cannot injure you, then you are invincible. Thus, this stat trumps speed since avoid is unecessary, as well as hp since the minimum hp of 1 will suffice. Res- Similar to defence, though in most FE games the number of physical attackers outnumber magical ones, so this stat cannot claim more importance than defence. So my vote's on defence as most important stat.