Vykan12

Resolve has to be included. When below 50% hp, it adds spd to your avoid, which is h3x considering how high your speed can get due to the 3 tier system. I mean +40 avoid is like getting another earth x earth support, and can make certain units invincible to 4-E-3 dragon attacks. The next choice would be rather hard. I would put celerity though, since reaching your targets faster takes a lot more priority than upping your chances of killing them with adept when you already have good offensive paramaters, especially when resolve + mastery/crit is already an offensive boost in itself. So yeah, resolve+celerity ftw.

Well I had said 2 each, 3 if things go well.

Yeah sure, I'd prefer quality of response > how fast you can put it together, especially considering how lazy FE debaters are in general. Possibly, though some people have radically different usernames here. I wasn't exactly expecting Xekr = Void, for instance. Just keep your fingers crossed he won't DQ :P

Well Solid has a good guide for judging these types of debates here. Though basically, opener and closer count for less than the counters in the middle out of fairness.

This is an FE10 tournament for anyone who's not sure. I figured this would work better than relying on the stickies in order to discuss the gamefaqs tournament that got moved here. Currently, we have: Round 1 Prognosis4/Vykan12 (Kyza) vs Anouleth (Lucia) - Anouleth has his closer left Mekkah (Kieran) vs Reikken (Danved)- Reikken's turn to counter Smashfanatic (Gareth) vs Charmander6000 (Meg)- Charmander's turn to counter CrimsonFlash21 (Sothe) vs Red Fox of Fire (Volug) - Crimson's turn to counter Although I did assign judges when I first organized this, moving the debates here might've thrown that off, so I don't mind if the judge panel here offers their opinions when the assigned judges are missing or taking too long to respond. And of course anyone who's part of the panel as well as the debates shouldn't be critiquing in their own debates for obvious reasons. Last thing, I'm willing to clarify anything about the current debate format since that information was lost in the transition here. Probably the most important thing to point out currently is that the deadline for Charmander and Reikken's counter was *supposed* to be Thursday, which is tommorow, but seeing as this is the first round and this situation somewhat turned into a mess, I'll be lenient and let you guys have all the way up to monday before disqualifications. Though afterwards, I expect the 3 day deadline to be respected in the interest of keeping things active. Oh, and here is the judge panel, forgot to mention who they actually were: Digital Cameras, Nflchamp, Dmassak, TheKiller37 and Void Templar.

Minor nitpick, hawks > Shinon. I did a comparison a long time ago, managed to dig it up: There's also more detailed discussion about it here (second page, assuming 50 posts per page is your account settings)

Bah this has veered so heavily off-topic, and yet I guess there is a good discussion going on and stuff. Anyway, before quoting random stuff I wanted to address, I’ll get my whole opinion into this matter. The issue seems to be people having trouble distinguishing what they consider class roles (eg/ generals tanking vs fliers visiting places + ferrying) with the ultimate objective of the game. The goal of a map is usually to seize, to kill all the enemies, to defend, among other things, but ultimately they pretty much all come down to how well any unit can contribute to combat efficiency. The way I see it, you have to examine the use of units who don’t attack directly (eg/ healers, dancers, thieves) based on their consequence on the fighters they’re helping. So instead of seeing a healer’s “role” as healing units, see it as allowing units to stay on the frontlines. Or in a thief’s case, instead of looking at them as getting items and money, look at it in terms of them increasing combat efficiency by allowing one of your units to switch to a special weapon that was either bought with stolen cash or taken directly from a chest or enemy. So long as everything relates to this common goal, then we can examine each unit as a function of how they accomplish that goal instead of just looking directly at what it is they’re doing. That just makes him worse than pegasi at performing the task of visiting a village. It doesn’t suddenly become a pegasi’s role because they can do it better than others, merely an advantage. The only thing that cannot really be measured on a numerical scale is how much more enemy exposure and non-combat tasks a flier can pull off relative to other unit types. And the only reason this is true is because it would take an eternity to look at the consequences of every possible situational benefit and give them a certain weight (realistic strategies more likely than lesser ones). So, instead of spending a lifetime analyzing a game, subjective differences are used instead such as to save time while reaching a conclusion that has a good chance of being rather similar to the one that all that insane work would tell us. And besides, if there weren’t any subjective factors to consider (eg/ 1-2 range vs healing), then it would be hard to argue anything in a tier list, since there’s no shift in what’s valued over another thing. The general case for a class is irrelevant, you have to examine each unit individually and take account for every circumstance the game offers (eg/ lance heavy earlygame in FE9). Are you going to tell me FE9 Tanith’s joining time performance is bad because she’s a Pegasus? Not if they’re high tier to begin with *points at FE5 Karin, FE8 Vanessa, FE9 Marcia and FE9 Tanith*. And you’ll notice that Karin is useful for very different reasons than Tanith is if you know anything about their respective games. Once again, generalizing the flier class accomplishes nothing. What the hell? The desert is 1 chapter where Sigrun will ever have such a sizeable advantage over Gatrie, and Gatrie doesn’t even have to go on Micaiah’s route. But even supposing he does, and that he loses, it’s maybe 10% of Sigrun’s availability. Gatrie wins the match-up overall because of what he does in part 3 when she’s not around, in addition to how much more durable and offensively capable he is. Sigrun may be able to reach enemies sooner, but if she’s 3 rounding them and he’s 1 rounding, then it makes no difference to Gatrie since he’s winning anyway. Of course, Sigrun being able to retreat from sticky situations, being able to fly over sand bags in the bridge, etc also has to be considered, and we do our best to account for all these things in measuring a unit’s usefulness to the team. Sweeping generalizations are completely useless. Should I say Dieck is good because he has the base speed of a swordsmaster, the base strength of a wyvern, but suffers from the res growth of a knight? Think of how horrendous tiering would be if we did such things. And thus units (not classes) who are avoid dependant but with poor defensive stats would suffer from poor durability in FE1/3/11, which the tier list would account for. See you’re not only making generalizations about classes an how they perform, but also about many other aspects of FE. A unit who starts low levelled doesn’t have to have low bases as “compensation”. Just look at Raven for an easy contradiction of that, especially on HHM. It may not give a tier list the same authenticity as a mathematical proof of a theorem, but you’re certainly cutting people’s ability to weigh subjective factors against each other a bit short. Have you even read a character debate yet? I’m pretty sure a lot of your criticisms would dissipate if you saw how they were carried out, at least the good ones. You’re not killing enemies to grow, you’re killing the to beat the game. How much you grow is just a benefit that pays dividends later on.

First, I’d like to point out how terrible Lucia is in 4-2 and 4-5 when not given any non-basic resources that other people want. Plus I justified Kyza’s speedwing consumption as being probably the best use of the resource overall in regards to the team if he’s in play, whereas the same cannot be said for Lucia. You can keep modifying your perception of what Lucia needs to compete with Kyza, it doesn’t change the fact she’ll need an expensive forge while Kyza’s fangs are cost free. What are you basing this on? Mia and Zihark easily have a level lead on her, and it would be a mystery for neither of them to have hit trueblade by part 4. Zihark’s --/20/1 crit: 36 (32/2 skl + 20 class bonus) Mia’s --/20/3 crit: 36 Volke’s base level crit: 43 Lucia’s --/15 crit: 24 Of course, Lucia will promote rather soon and catch up in crit, but she’s certainly not exceeding theirs, which is what you were claiming. And I don’t see why Zihark and Mia want to pass gamble for the skill combo you mentioned. You could have gamble-vantage-adept or gamble-vantage-cancel as alternative combos and there’s no guarantee that any of those skills are going to them, particularly in part 4 when you get units who easily exceed their spd and skl stat, thus making for better activtion %ages. I don’t actually think she’d want it that bad. At best, it only gives her a better chance at killing an enemy on player phase than she’d normally have, and even that’s questionable considering how bad of a hit rate drop it is to halve it, meaning for it to truly become a more reliable means of player phase killing, she’d additionally need a heaven support or something. Whereas one simple stat booster fixed a great deal of Kyza’s offensive problems, there is no single stat booster that makes Lucia have an epiphany and actually fight well, and everything you’ve proposed so far only offer marginal solutions. I mean, maybe we could compare Kyza to Lucia while minimizing the favoritism we give them as that might benefit Lucia more than Kyza. However, I see that as being unrealistic considering how a player would normally try to compensate for the flaws of their weaker characters immediately instead of letting them overcome a period of suck in order to hold their own weight later. In which case, Kyza getting the speedwing vs Lucia getting forges/gamble/etc maintains status as the realistic comparison. You know, trueblades and Volke aren’t the only people with good hit and crit rates. Shinon or Rolf wouldn’t mind gamble either since their entire offence is player phase, and even someone like Janaff w/ insight could make decent use of it. You got a vine card! Sorry. Srsly though, I’ve already covered why coin bonuses are unreliable. Lucia has maybe a 40% chance of getting a bonus she actually wants. I might be cutting that chance short here, but it’s not even remotely close to 100%. Hok, but how is she supposed to be competing against Lucia without those things? If you don’t pile enough things on her, this will happen: Kyza lv 22 (A Mordy, S strike): 58 hp, 41 Mt, 24 skl, 28 spd, 16 lck, 27 def, 15 res, 92 avo Lucia lv 15 (Steel blade): 39 hp, 31 Mt, 28 skl, 28 spd, 19 lck, 14 def, 15 res, 95 avo As I showed in my openar, pwnt. And though Lucia may indeed promote in 4-2 off CEXP alone, Kyza just needs to hit SS strike to guarantee that Lucia’s never winning attack, and he wins durability and move no matter what. The issue isn’t getting her those kills, it’s getting them efficiently. If Lucia is 2-3 rounding things while facing the same fate against enemies (They 2-3HKO her), and she only has 7 move and lots of vines to pass through, how is she supposed to be getting those kills within say, 15 turns? Elincia mercy set-ups is probably pushing it. Under-levelled units can only make the most use of it if they are doing really well in combat to promote getting kills while not dying, so it’s more likely to be going to a more intermediate unit (someone who’s not quite under-levelled but not Titania-levelled either). Plus, even if they did, everyone still wants this skill horribly bad since enemies in part 4 generally give very high exp gains anyway compared to other parts, and doubling the growth rate of any unit is h3x. I suppose that’s true, but she’s still locked in a period of suck (not 1RKOing anything reliably, can easily die). Tibarn can chase him down in a hurry so there’s no need to extend this beyond 10 turns and lose BEXP, in addition to wasting time when you should be going to 4-E. High enough against what? You didn’t specify what type of support so I’ll assume 3 cases. --/20/1 Lucia has 105 avoid 1) C fire/heaven/light/water- 113 avoid 2) C dark/thunder/wind- 115 avoid 3) C earth- 120 avoid On NM, these suckas reach 150+ hit, so Lucia’s not looking too good. Case 1: Lucia faces a 40% (true) hit rate. If she’s 2HKOed, it’s a 16% chance of death, if in 3, it’s a 6.4% chance of death. Case 2: Lucia faces 27% hit. 7% and 1.9% respectively. Case 3: Lucia faces 18% hit. 3% and 0.5% respectively In all those cases, Kyza’s chances of dying are 0% since with 25 def, he’s taking ~18 damage from tiger attacks. Now, those are awful durability numbers for Lucia. In fact, the first 2 are worse than Kyza’s durability against elfire mages in his joining part 3 chapter, and the level didn’t exactly have ~50% of the enemies being those mages like this level has with tigers. Even somehow assuming her crit rate is 100% with gamble (it’s more like 70-80% even with a super forge), her odds of killing the enemy are nowhere near 100% and only work on player phase. Let’s look at her accuracy, something you conveniently ignore all the time when mentioning gamble. Lucia’s accuracy before selecting a weapon at --/20/1 is 105. A silver sword has 80 hit, so if you maxed out its hit rate, it would be 105 as well. So that’s 210 hit for Lucia. Divide that by 2, she’s back to 105. Unfortunately for her, tigers have ~58 avo while cats have ~70, so this is almost as stupid as using gamble against spirits (24-44% true). Congrats Lucia, your offence seems to always turn out worse with gamble than without! Where is Lucia getting 123 crit from? Beastfoe doesn’t increase her crit odds. I only mentioned beastfoe because it’s a useful conditional to my case. IF Kyza uses beastfoe, he’s easily beating Lucia, even IF we look at how she does with it herself. And the odds of them getting it is pretty high considering they’re probably your worst units being fielded in 4-E (remember that the more you suck, the less likely you are to be used) so they get a bigger boost from the skill than high end GMs who are already killing everything fairly reliably. Glad we’re in agreement then. Tempest blades do help out her 1-2 range game, but have a lolable 55 hit. A 20/8 Lucia has 167 hit before supports (and she doesn’t want fire or heaven if she’s going for avo tank) with the Tempest blade, which isn’t too bad in 4-E-1 (enemies have 70ish avoid) but becomes pretty ugly as you go along, particularly against those 135 avo auras (20% true per attack). And forget using gamble with those things, not to mention tempest sacrifice 2 of her much needed attack when the vague katti shows up. Hey, I was trying to help you out with that point. Heather doesn’t need to be in 4-4 because of the existence of chest keys and unlock staves, and the only thing you really want there is fortify and maybe arbalest. My original point still stands. 5 wyrmslayers are indeed available, but they can also be used beforehand. Wyverns in general are second only to generals in enemy durability and generally pretty difficult to ORKO, plus swordsmasters have less than stellar attack, so they want to be using it at any of those opportunities. So you could easily fall to 3 wyrms by 4-E and Ike will probably get one, leaving just 2. Looking at the number of people who can use swords by this time (TBs, pegs, marshals, gold knights, etc), Lucia’s competition is rather hefty for the item, it turns out. And once again, dragonfoe is just a hypothetical that need not be ignored. I suppose Lucia ORKOing with the alondite is better than Kyza doing so at 1 range, but not much is done on enemy phase in this map if you care at all about unit survival (50+ Mt and 170-180 hit enemies? Gah!) so it’s a pretty minuscule advantage. Though you do have a point about the 20 extra damage, you’re also admitting that Lucia’s attack is going to be weak, and it’s easy to find other units who are weak that can fulfill the type of role that Lucia is (lolSothe). Though, there are 2 things I can nitpick at here. First, Caneighis doing the most damage to corner aura (more or less) means he takes a lot of damage back, so parity prevents that from happening. In addition, he has the aura weakened to the point where it can be 1HKOed, so a non-nihil/parity unit can kill it without hp loss. And besides, we’ve already established that Lucia isn’t likely to keep parity simply because everyone wants it for damage reduction. What sounds better, Lucia doing 12 damage to Lehran instead of 0 or Giffca ORKOing Lehran instead of 2 rounding him? Also note that parity cancels out any chance of Lehran activation corona, which is quite high (40+-10% activation), so anyone who attacks Lehran or any other boss wants the skill. Against spirits, it doesn’t really make much of a difference if Lucia takes parity or not since most people likely to be played don’t have much trouble killing them and you could just shove the spirits close to Lehran to remove his guard hax. I already gave Lucia the win in 4-E in my opener. Kyza wins everywhere else by a much greater margin, which was the core of my case all along. Mentioning 4-E was mostly to show that Kyza isn’t getting completely outclassed there or something. She’s advising queens how to phail, seeing as Crimea rebelled against Elincia and experienced a short civil war. Liberating Crimea is basically undoing part of what she helped do, so working towards lessening a negative you caused yourself < nothing. There’s nothing inherently valuable about falling into a trap unless you’re a stunt double, and haircuts only offer aesthetic changes. The rest of the stuff someone else could’ve done much better if they weren’t airheads, and Kyza is above all this simply by being a low-key tiger who kicks ass.

I discussed with Mekkah a little why Tanith > Ike, I can go into more detail about the match-up if anyone cares. Some things about your list don't make much sense though, Nathan. You have Oscar way too far separated from Kieran and Jill, and it's pretty easy to argue that Oscar's durability is mostly overkill while he loses offence to both of them, so the only reason he'll win period is superior outgoing support benefits and some earlygame utility while they're not around. You also have the tigers completely underrated. Muarim doesn't have Soren's sucky earlygame, and is easily one of your top 3 midgame units, and he has major wins in durability and move that last forever even if his atk falters over the course of the game. All Soren has to counter-act that is staves. Last thing I felt like mentioning was overrating Zihark. We all know by now that myrmidons have among the suckiest attack in the game and Zihark is no exception to this. He'll have trouble killing things and only has unreliable crit to compensate. His durability isn't even necessarily that great either. If Muarim isn't fielded, he probably won't even get an A, and even if he did, he's losing out on 7 avoid. Astrid >>> all that, she grows twice as fast as him and gets axes upon promotion (along with all the benefits that entails, such as 1-2 range). Also, horsie. There are a couple other things, such as Lethe being a tad low (below Janaff? she has all this joining time win whereas Janaff sucks on offence forever) though maybe I'll mention it later when I'm not so tired.

So basically, d00d stabs girl, girl dies. Am I missing something here?

I didn't see any major flaws in it and was actually surprised at the effectiveness of your Sothe-Micaiah A support point. I am a bit puzzled by how part 4 hasn't even really been mentioned by either of you yet, though. Of course, neither of us should be discussing a debate here as it's going on, as it's unfair to Crimson.

FE10 HM enemy stats up to 3-9

I will not deny that, however it’s still better than Lucia not being there. And you didn’t mention his durability, so I’ll assume you conceded he has impressive durability at least relative to the enemies. Having good defence > having good offence in many situations, since you can compensate for offensive flaws easier than lacklustre survival ability. If you don’t believe me, consider someone like Soren who generally needs a wall of protection to be safe on enemy phase, which is slowing down your teammates, whereas someone who’s average on offence but lolimpossible to kill like Oscar just needs to keep finding enemies to offset his average-ish killing ability. Based on that, and the stuff in my first post you “can’t really dispute”, Kyza is quite a ways better than mediocre, which is all I really need to prove in regards to part 3. He won’t ever be in this state except for the beginning of a chapter, and that’s if you don’t have him use a laguz stone, which there are plenty of at this point. There’s no denying the 10% thing (though laguz stones and possible Reyson use make it more like 5%). However, Kyza going from pretty bad to above average with the speedwing > giving it to someone else who will go from good to slightly better. There’s no other GMs who magically go from doubling almost no one to doubling almost everything off of one speedwing. Since the net result is more positive than any other speedwing allotment, the negative of Kyza taking the speedwing from the team is thus lessened. First, Kyza (or any laguz for that matter) don’t ever need to risk going untransformed once in a transformed state. You know the maximum amount of enemies that Kyza can face on that enemy phase when put in a given spot, as well as his current meter status, so there’s no difficulty in deciding when he has to take olivi grass and when he can pass on that option to make an attack. Second, Kyza doesn’t have to run back to munch grass. On the contrary, you’re usually throwing a laguz into a pile of enemies when they take grass so that their heightened meter can be put to use by countering a ton of enemies. The only situation where he’ll have to run back is if he’s short on grass AND health and must prioritize healing, thus meaning he risks untransforming if any other enemies attack him. Third, 9 move isn’t suddenly “not great” (and not great compared to what? 7 move?) because Kyza lacks canto. Every turn Kyza moves fully that someone else doesn’t compounds how far Kyza can get ahead (2 on turn 1, 4 on turn 2, 6 on turn 3, etc). And only 4 turns are required such that even if Kyza stood still on that turn, the person behind him could at best catch up to him, at which point Kyza can still jump ahead on subsequent turns. And, the goal of any map is usually to get from point A to point B while killing everything in your way in an efficient manner, so Kyza being able to already do half of that just by inherent class abilities is pretty pwn. Oh, then Kyza also profits from mobility advantages in other ways. Whereas he gets reduced to 7 move while climbing a cliff, others get reduced to 5, and in some cases even 4. And sometimes people take 2 turns to climb a cliff whereas Kyza usually only takes 1. In these situations, Kyza’s move lead is amplified. And let’s not forget not being hindered by bushes. This is quite a ways more useful than his only real movement disadvantage, which is crap move in water, something most other units have anyway (and your valuable canto units like Titania suck even more at that, they can’t even pass through a river or climb or descend ledges). And Kyza is probably your second best smite user, so if Mordy isn’t in play, he has that possible win on his side. This isn’t a justification for anything. I could just claim Lucia’s chapters are boring whereas Kyza’s are incredibly fun, and I’d be done. Please try and avert this kind of subjective nonsense in a debate. Conceding part 3 is cool in my book. I’ll reserve any comments about his speed cap until we address part 4. By putting a bunch of resources into Lucia, you’re making her compare slightly better to Kyza at the expense of making Kyza’s speedwing consumption negative diminish, since now they’re starting to get on more comparable levels of what they want to compete well against enemies. I don’t have any issues with Lucia getting a forge. You can make an infinite supply of them, and you have quite a bit of money at this point. But still, you’re getting carried away here. A forged silver sword with +5 Mt already costs 4500 gold whereas a silver blade only costs 3600 g while doing 1 less damage. Considering you want to boost other aspects of the sword, particularly its crit rate, we’re talking easily 5-6k for a 30 use weapon. 200 g per use, 400 g per double is quite a lot of money, and Kyza ain’t costin’ a dime for his attacks. Though what really surprised me about your argument was mentioning cards. Manipulating Lucia’s forge to get the specific card that gives crit bonuses is a daunting task, and likely isn’t happening. There’s just as good an odds of only getting a hit bonus, or the vine card, or a card that ups the weapon +1 attack, or nets you more coins (the raven coin), or you might not even have any coins left. Considering that, Lucia’s bonuses from a forge are unreliable and the fact that she wants one so bad to close the gap against Kyza’s speaking volumes about how much she’s currently losing by. Giving her gamble on top of all this just compounds her resource consumption to the point where Kyza’s speedwing consumption is a lesser negative. I’m not entirely sure what the purpose of this was. You didn’t post Lucia’s damage against the tiger, or the tiger’s defence stat, so for all we know from the data you gave, she could be doing 3 damage per hit and unable to kill the tiger with 2 astra activations. Nor did you post how much def Lucia has, though I’m sure you don’t want to openly advertise that she’s getting 2HKOed by tigers at 55 display hit. And I think your crit numbers are wrong, you didn’t seem to factor in luck, so it’s really 43 crit vs 0. Well come to think of it, none of what you listed seems to make much sense. If it’s Lucia’s stats (left) vs the Tiger’s stats (right), then how come Lucia beats the tiger in attack power? A tiger’s MT at this point is ~45, and that’s on normal mode. I won’t quote any of your other numbers for similar reasons (they confuse me). I’ll address them once you clarify, though. As for the second half of your post, there’s not much I need to say since you’re basically digging yourself into a whole with your own arguments. Though I must point out that statements like “she’s doing good considering how under-levelled she is” are meaningless in a debate since we’re not tiering units based solely on their potential. Lucia doing bad right now is bad for her no matter how you’d like to word it. See the last sentence of my previous post. So you want her to get a forged sword, the gamble scroll, a specific coin bonus, paragon AND BEXP? Kyza doesn’t need any of that and is still beating her. Yes, you can argue against his speedwing all you want, but what you’re proposing for Lucia thus far is in a league of its own. See above. Also, that’s quite a lot for Lucia to go from being 2HKOed to 3HKOed, whereas Kyza’s only real resource consumption so far has had much larger benefits. And look at everything it took for Lucia to build this marginal offensive lead, whereas Kyza’s still beating her in durability and mobility, which are arguably far more important in this level. Plus, I could just give Kyza beastfoe and have him ORKO everything on the map without a crit. There, one skill compared to Lucia’s 2-3, BEXP, forges, etc. and now he’s wtfstomping her. Though, if Lucia tosses all that favoritism aside for beastfoe, she still might not be able to 1RKO tigers normally and still gets killed easily, and being rape on offence is very useless when it also employs high risk strategies. Lucia isn’t like Calill or something where she can compensate for bad defensive stats through ranged attacks, since Lucia would have to turn to wind edges, and I don’t think much needs to be said about that. This list is severely flawed. First, you put count Kyza’s untransformed-ness somehow as favoritism for him but not everything Lucia’s worse at like attacking and surviving. Also, Kyza taking up grass/stones (a lot of which you get for free) is arguably on par with Lucia using regular swords and other generic items. So it’s really 4+ points against Lucia vs 1 point vs Kyza, and not every point has the same weight. For instance, wanting BEXP at this point is very bad, since everyone who’s late second tier (20/15-18ish range) currently wants to BEXP ram their stats and there’s not much BEXP to go around on hard mode. That could arguably cancel with Kyza’s speedwing, which leaves 3 vs 0. Kyza obvsiously wins in that regard. Geoffrey? Explain plz. Not only is Geoffrey terrible beyond 3-9 (gets doubled by 4-5 cats and probably easier to kill than Lucia is), but their support level can only hit C by 4-E-1. If anything, I’d argue Lucia getting Heather or something if she wanted attack, since then she can actually build some support time in 2-2. Parity isn’t saving Lucia either, as that gets rid of her support bonuses which is like 90% of her durability, and she isn’t exactly the best person to have attacking the generals on defensive tiles considering they have higher stats than most of the other enemies here. Oh, and you did mention BEXPing her strength, but she that involves 3 things: First, that she’s actually reached a level where she has spd and skl capped, which is unlikely. Second, more resources that Lucia’s using or at least wanting > others that Kyza doesn’t, and third, Lucia won’t even improve much from it since she has a pretty tame 31 strength cap whereas Kyza exceeds 31 strength at level 32. You’re just diminishing Lucia’s only chance to actually beat Kyza. Though, you should note that all of 4-E can be beaten in 7 turns, 3 of which can be 1 turned with various strategic set-ups, so if BK is a pushover, the majority of 4-E is as well. Read my topic about making void statements. Red dragon lv 23 Hp 72, Mt 56, Hit 161, As 12, Def 34, Res 18, Luck 10, Avo 59 White dragon lv 23 Hp 67, Mt 54, Hit 175, As 12, Def 22, Res 36, Luck 10, Avo 59 Lucia with a wyrmslayer at –/20/15 has 51 effective MT versus dragons. She’s doing 34 damage against Red dragons and 58 against white ones. So even with her magical blade of fury, she’s only 2-3RKOing enemies. Not that Kyza’s doing any better, but both are relying on skill/crit procurage to kill the enemy in one round, and I already showed earlier that Kyza’s roar activation ~ Lucia’s astra and crit activation. Another thing is that if Kyza gets dragonfoe, he wins offence handidly. With SS strike being tripled, he already has 60 Mt, 9 higher than Lucia, and well above 20 strength, so he’s doing at least 46 damage per hit to red dragons. So, cool at Kyza 1RKOing everything with a certain resource whereas Lucia cannot with a similar resource, and it helps that Kyza’s is unlimited while Lucia’s is stuck to 20 uses, which is 10 attacks, possibly less. Leaving parity on Lucia is moronic, it’s put to much better use on someone like Caneighis who can do up to 84 damage to corner auras using it. Almost every royal, Volke, Sothe, all hawks, cats, and every other trueblade (you know, ppl like Mia and Zihark who are actually getting SS swords Lucia’s supposed to be using) can double auras without nasir, so just about any of them get parity priority if they’re fielded. Who said Lucia could get parity but Kyza couldn’t? 10 capacity space isn’t much, especially when laguz have more than beorc past lv 30. I’ve refuted the whole parity notion twice, though even more people can double spirits than auras (it only takes about 34-35 spd vs 39-40). Mentioning gamble again shows that you’re not doing your homework. Thunder spirits exceed 100 avoid, and royals, the most accurate units in the game, only reach about 230-240 hits. So even if Lucia had 240 hit, gamble drops that to 120 and massive lulz at 8 true hit being effective. To make this more laughable, consider that spirits also have 30 luck, so Lucia’s massive crit isn’t doing much good. If she has 50 crit, the spirits drop that crit rate to 20. So again, massive hilarity at thinking 8 true hit and 20 crit is a reliable way to kill spirits. I won’t even bother countering that, it’s just a useless summary with no substance. I don’t feel any need to make a summary of my own for why Kyza > Lucia, the points all lie in the evidence presented thus far. She’s also naïve enough to fall into an obvious trap and get captured. Kyza never causes such a hindrance so him >>> that.

I’m not asking to compare each character with each other (lol at 73 factorial comparisons in FE10), just for it to at least be done occasionally to prove a point. Comparisons are mainly for characters that intuitively look close, such as Kent vs Sain or Dieck vs Alan, since you’d obviously be wasting time comparing Tibarn to Pelleas, for instance. Another thing is that when comparisons get out there, people have more data they can easily turn to. If you want to show that oh I dunno, the GMs have less durability issues than the DB, you’ll have plenty of data for that since you would have all this “Ike vs enemies” and “Mia vs enemies” data that’s readily accessible, versus having to do it all yourself to prove a point. Or if someone asks why x > y, you can just re-quote a comparison instead of giving a summarized answer that’s equally as void as the stuff I’m complaining about. The problem is the games that don’t have route splits or other such intricacies follow this trend of lazy tier-age. I’ve been talking about FE on forums for a good year or two, this is the only time I’ve ever felt the urge to make this type of a topic :P Yeah but the person’s own laziness in regards to not posting the averages is at the expense of everyone else who has to do it themselves to verify the result instead of just reading a done comparison. Also, it takes a rather long time to factor in weapons, hit rates, avoid and supports (among other things) into a comparison, so just looking at spreadsheets won’t give you all the answers.

I'd have to do that constantly though. I just skimmed through this topic. First 7 pages were nothing but either one liners, very brief (and usually standalone) paragraphs or reposting part of the list. I feel as though I might not even find one in the full 70 pages, and most tier threads I visit are almost exactly like this.

My main gripe about tier lists topics currently is when people make void statements. For instance, they say things with what seems like a brief justification, but is ultimately rather meaningless. I’ll give random examples just to clarify. Why? You can’t simply make bold assertions without evidence. Or, in the words of Solid Sense, “Anything you argue for must be substantiated with logic.” Would it kill you to provide numbers to prove your claim about Ogma’s strength in relation to Barst? Very generalized statements. No effort to explain which he thinks has more value and why, and basically refuses to examine their performances in a non-half assed way because he likes to instead use broad terms such as “they suck”. For instance, I have no idea how either character would compare to each other in the midgame, or any subtle advantages one has over the other. Decent strength/defence relative to what? What does this say of his durability? How does reaching an arbitrary amount of speed by the final chapter say anything about whether he can double consistently before that? Actually hit thing with axes… where did you ever establish Bord’s poor hit rate, or how much better Darros’ hit is in comparison? For all we know, Draug can 1HKO every enemy in the game with his strength, or is impossible to kill, or can use staves. Claiming he sucks because he can’t double says nothing about his actual performance. These void remarks can be found almost anywhere. I’m just looking through topics randomly and finding tons of them. And this isn’t the only forum where these void arguments are introduced. Every forum I’ve been to (gfaqs, FEP, FESS, FEF, here, etc) has this type of nonsense in massive doses. In some places you’d be lucky to see a single stat comparison in over 100 posts or anything resembling the detail you see in a character vs character debate. And with the quality of the statements being made, one could counter any one of these arguments with a clever CATS line, “ok how about i say the opposite now, it will sound equally convincing." I don’t mind seeing void statements once in a while if there’s really no need to prove what people already know (eg/ Gatrie is a lot more durable than Rhys), but when they’re used this frequently, then we begin to make changes in a tier list that doesn’t even remotely reflect a unit’s utility relative to others. I know part of the reason these things happen is people only debate tiers for fun and thus don’t see much need for in-depth analysis, but I would still at least want to see some changes on the way people approach tiers so that they aren’t just a topic getting riddled with useless remarks. Now, this would just be senseless complaining if I didn’t offer some samples of what thorough tier debating should look like… Ellen vs Gonzales Look at everything that’s covered in one post: -A paragraph each devoted to explaining why Gonzales won’t land any supports while Ellen will. -Putting into perspective the cost of a missed hit. -Also putting the value of healing utility into perspective, which is not only supported by logical statements but also examples of its application. -Thoroughly covers the value of Ellen being auto-deployed for a few chapters whereas Gonzales isn’t. -Mentions how Gonzales needs a bad character fielded in order to be recruited -Actually quantifies Gonzales’ hit problems not just compared to Ellen but also a sample of HM enemies -Covers why Ellen will continue leveling faster than your other units. And then Mekkah’s counter can also be shown to be rich with content. Or Solid’s opener here -In the second line of his opener, he’s already showing all of Mordecai’s statistical leads over Kieran, and analyzing the value of each lead. -Provides a beautiful defense for why the smite skill is an amazing asset for Mordecai. -Shows that Mordecai is the most durable unit on the team even when untransformed, and explores the value of that. -Compares the characters again at midgame to establish that nothing’s really changed. -Covers all the details involving Mordy’s supports vs Kieran’s. -Defends Mordy getting a speedwing based on intelligence resource consumption and goes over all the consequences this would have on Mordy. He also gives Kieran a speedwing in one of the comparisons to show that it wouldn’t make a difference. -Yet another comparison covering their lategame. And then of course, you can look at all of Solid’s subsequent posts. He produces gold such as: He’s not only giving reasons for smite being better than Kieran’s move and non-transform-issue advantages, he’s showing its application with numerous examples. Pointing out fairly subtle advantages that Mordecai has to demonstrate he requires less maintenance. Etc… Of course, I do know that character debates are based on persuasion, so people will exaggerate certain leads, omit important details against the character they’re defending, etc. and that these kinds of posts take quite a while to write, but they’re nonetheless infinitely more valuable than saying “bottom tier cuz of sucky AS”. I do not expect people to start making tier arguments that resembles Reikken, Solid or Cats’ strength in a debate, but there’s no harm in aspiring towards such a thing. Tl;dr, all I’m saying is I would love to see some middle ground between void arguments and amazing logic in a tier thread.

Challenges involving abuse are boring, it shows endurance towards tedium more than any capacity of creativity or skill. 11 triangle attacks in 1 turn is a fun place to start.

If you consider topics like "Bill Clinton is in this game" nt... as good trolling, then you have bad taste. He also likes to compare Fire Emblem to the Tales series all the time for some odd reason.

Even assuming you were joking about marking the topics, it probably provoked people to do it. My bet's on Solnaglfar, he probably wanted revenge becuase I made a topic once telling people how to stop all the trolling on the Gfaqs FEDS boards, and it appeared to have worked.

First consider that Seth beats everyone in the earlygame by a humongous margin. Like, he could beat everyone on offence while fighting with his fist (assuming his fist is a 0 atk weapon). Now consider his growth rates: 90% hp, 50% str, 45% skl, 25% lck, 40% def, 30% res. That's one of the best growth spreads in the game, with his only weakness being the rather insignificant luck growth. Then he has ridiculous supports. A Eirika B Franz happens by like midgame and gives him +5 attack, +5 defence, +12 avoid, +12 accuracy, +12 critical and +12 crit evade. Probably one of the best support combinations in the game. And lastly, he can actually level up reasonably fast assuming you give him boss kills. Sure, that means that no one else can get them, but you profit more from having a pre-promo gain like 60 exp from the boss than a regular unit gaining 100 since the regular unit gains a lot more exp per generic kill than the pre-promo, and the pre-promo could always refrain from killing to visit villages/rescue/build supports/etc as compensation. IE, Seth has an efficient, non-abusive and entirely reasonable way to level up in a hurry despite being a pre-promote. I do not see any way that any unit can possibly compete with that level of h3x in this game. Putting Seth in God for every chapter is almost a disgrace :P

I don’t have any plot related opening statements to work with concerning Kyza whereas you can proclaim Lucia’s hawtness. I guess I could argue Kyza’s pretty cool for being low key, but he’s no Volke. Bah, I might as well cut to the chase. There’s one highly noticeable advantage Kyza has over Lucia, which is availability. Whereas Lucia only has 2-2 and part 4 (8 chapters), Kyza has most of part 3 in addition to part 4 to work with (12 chapters). That means Kyza has 50% more playtime than Lucia. Keep in mind that if Kyza can compare to Lucia while he’s around and he’s above average when she isn’t, he’s easily winning the comparison. In fact, he could win (though by a lesser margin) even if he were slightly inferior to Lucia in part 4 if his part 3 were good enough to compensate. So how is Kyza doing in part 3? First and foremost, Kyza will gladly take the negative of taking a 2-3 speedwing. This is a lot of baggage for Kyza to overcome, since he has to perform well enough to counteract having taken a speedwing away from the likes of Haar, Mordy, Boyd, Rolf, etc… and is also causing the item to rot until 3-4. Let’s now look at his bases with the speewing applied. Kyza lv 18 (A strike): 55 hp, 30 Mt, 20 skl, 26 spd, 14 lck, 20 def, 10 res, 145 hit, 81 avo === Warrior lvl 10 (Steel Axe) HP 42, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 130, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15 Offense: does 66% damage Defence: 14 damage at 49% true hit. 5.76% chance of dying in 4 hits === Halberdier lvl 10 (Steel Lance) HP 38, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 134, Avo 54, DEF 19, RES 13, Crit 15, Ddg 14 Offence: does 57% damage Defence: 10 damage at 56% true hit. 3.08% chance of dying in 6 hits === Swordmaster lvl 9 (Steel Sword) HP 34, Atk 26, AS 23, Hit 146, Avo 61, DEF 16, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15 Offence: does 41% damage per hit, just 1AS from doubling Defence: is 9HKOed === Fire Sage lvl 8 (Elfire) HP 32, Atk 26, AS 18, Hit 130, Avo 47, DEF 12, RES 16, Crit 8, Ddg 11 Offence: Does 112% damage Defence: 23% chance of dying in 2 hits. === Thunder Sage lvl 9 (Elthunder, one has Vulnerary) HP 33, Atk 26, AS 17, Hit 121, Avo 46, DEF 11, RES 16, Crit 18, Ddg 12 Offence: Does 115% damage Defence: 1.04% chance of dying in 4 hits === Sniper lvl 9 (Steel Bow) HP 37, Atk 30, AS 20, Hit 139, Avo 55, DEF 17, RES 11, Crit 21, Ddg 15 Offence: Does 70% damage Defence: 11% chance of dying in 6 hits === Axe General lvl 11 (Steel Poleax) HP 40, Atk 37, AS 17, Hit 117, Avo 51, DEF 24, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 17 Offence: 30% damage Defence: 0.45% chance of dying in 4 hits === From these numbers, we can see that Kyza isn’t really killing anything but sages, but aside from armors, he’s generally inflicting >50% damage per enemy, and his durability is impressive, as he can generally take 4-6 hits while only facing 50ish hit rates. It may not seem like Kyza’s any real all-star, but there’s few GMs who are doing any better than him. Gatrie lv --/15/0 (B Shinon, steel greatlance): 45 hp, 41 Mt, 20 skl, 23 spd, 17 lck, 29 def, 13 res, 83 avo Gatrie cannot double any of the enemies Kyza can aside from mages (which Kyza ORKOes anyway) and generals, so even though he leads damage per hit by 11, he’s still losing damage overall. If you don’t believe, look at the #s: Vs the warrior: 57% damage (+9% Kyza) Vs the halberdier: 57% damage (tie) Vs the swordsmaster: 76% (-35% Kyza, +6% if Kyza doubles) Vs the sniper: 67% (+3% Kyza) Vs the axe gen: 85% (-55% Kyza) Though Kyza loses significantly against 2 enemy types (though sometimes only 1 if SMs are being nice), he is doing slightly better against everything else. I won’t deny that Gatrie wins durability (9 def, 3 res and 2 avo > 10 hp) but Kyza also has 50% higher move than Gatrie, meaning he can get out of sticky situations easier to heal himself with a concoction, and the move also helps his offence by allowing greater enemy exposure than Gatrie, which is major considering that’s Gatrie’s biggest downfall. So it seems Kyza can decently compare to one of the GM’s better units already from joining. Let’s see how he fares against a couple others. Kyza lv 18 (A strike): 55 hp, 30 Mt, 20 skl, 26 spd, 14 lck, 20 def, 10 res, 145 hit, 81 avo Mia lv --/12/0 (B Rhys): 38 hp, 34 Mt, 29 skl, 30 spd, 20 lck, 15 def, 9 res, 95 avo Kyza has some nice durability leads here (17 hp, 5 def and 1 res > 14 avo). Mia does admittedly win attack by 4 (8 per double) but both units are two rounding most enemies, so her only real offensive advantage is against SMs, which she doubles. Before you bring up adept as Mia’s main defence, note that Mia’s adept activation in 2 hits is 51% whereas Kyza’s is currently 46%, as well as the fact that Kyza’s activation rate is only going to improve since Mia is stuck with her tier 2 spd cap for a while. So clearly, Kyza is matching up to Mia as it stands. And onto my final example. Kyza lv 18 (A strike): 55 hp, 30 Mt, 20 skl, 26 spd, 14 lck, 20 def, 10 res, 145 hit, 81 avo Shinon lv --/16/0 (B Fire): 44 hp, 34 Mt, 30 skl, 26 spd, 16 lck, 23 def, 17 res, 83 avo I can’t really claim Kyza’s winning anything statistically. Though, like the Mia match-up, both units are 2 rounding, so Shinon’s 8 extra damage per double isn’t much of an advantage, especially when almost everyone in the army at this point is 2 rounding. Shinon also wins durability by a little (3 def, 7 res and 2 avo > 11 hp) but Shinon’s inability to counter (aside from sucky crossbows) is arguably worse than Kyza’s transform issues, and even if it weren’t, Kyza still has +2 move to brag about. So, based on those 3 samples, Kyza’s not looking half bad, so I can safely assert that he’s at least average right now. Fortunately for Kyza, he improves in a hurry. Supports grow a level every 1.5-2 chapters, then he’s got strike gains to profit from, in addition to the gains from level-ups. For strike gains, he needs to perform 70 hits. Assuming most of what Kyza attacks he doubles, that’s roughly 35 enemies he has to face off with. Assuming he attacks on average about 7 enemies per chapter, it’ll only take him 5 maps to improve his strike. Now onto his exp gain. The formula for HM exp gain is as follows: Atk exp = (EL-UL)/2 + 5 Kill exp = Atk exp + (EL-UL) + 15 Where EL= enemy level and UL = unit level According to Reikken, laguz level = 2* beorc level, so Kyza would be lv 36, or 20/16 in the formula. Versus a 20/11 enemy, Kyza gains the following amount of exp: Atk exp = (11-16)/2 + 5 = 3 exp per hit Kill exp = 4 + (11-16) + 15 = 14 exp per kill Assuming Kyza injures roughly half the enemies he faces and kills the other half, he’s gaining on average 8.5 exp per enemy encounter. So by the time he’s gotten to S strike, he’ll have gained roughly 3 levels, possibly more when factoring in some BEXP usage. Finally, for supports, let’s give Kyza A Mordy. They both have similar mobility and joining time, so it seems like a logical pairing. So jumping to 3-E (at this point, I can only go with NM stats since HM isn’t recorded past 3-9): Kyza lv 21 (A Mordy, S strike): 58 hp, 39 Mt, 22 skl, 28 spd, 16 lck, 25 def, 15 res, 87 avo === Sniper lv 13 (steel bow) Hp 39, Mt 32, Hit 145, As 21, Def 19, Res 13, Avo 63 Offence: 102% damage Defence: 9HKOed at 65% real. === Swordsmaster lv 16 (steel blade) Hp 38, Mt 33, Hit 130, As 26, Def 19, Res 12, Avo 65, Crit 23 Offence: 52% damage Defence: 8HKOed at 37% real === Halberdier lv 13 (steel lance) Hp 39, Mt 30, Hit 130, As 21, Def 21, Res 14, Avo 51 Offence: 92% damage Defence: 12HKOed at 37% real === Thunder sage lv 12 (elthunder) Hp 34, Mt 26, Hit 129, As 18, Def 12, Res 17, Avo 54 Offence: 138% damage Defence: 6HKOed at 36% real. === Axe paladin lv 13 (steel poleax) Hp 39, Mt 36, Hit 116, As 19, Def 19, Res 12, Avo 54, Offence: 102% damage Defence: 6HKOed at 17%(!) real === Dragonmaster lv 15 (steel axe) Hp 43, Mt 35, Hit 132, As 20, Def 22, Res 9, Avo 55 Offence: 81% damage Defence: 6HKOed at 40% real. === Lance gen lv 14 (steel greatlance) Hp 42, Mt 37, Hit 128, As 19, Def 27, Res 17, Avo 56 Offence: 57% damage Defence: 12 damage at 34% true. 0.45% chance of dying in 5 hits === Major improvement over last time. Kyza’s either one rounding or severely injuring (80-90% damage) most enemy types, and 2 rounds anything he faces aside from maybe bosses (didn’t examine that). More impressive though, is Kyza’s durability improvement. Now he’s easily taking 6-12 hits against everything he faces, and at 40% or lower real. Kyza could also switch from Mordy to another support partner to trade atk and def for something and 8 avoid, at which point he’s only facing 25-30ish hit rates while maybe taking 1 or 2 less hits. There isn’t really much need to compare Kyza to anyone else since it’s obvious he’s being quite useful, though let’s check him out against Titania anyway, just to show how well he’s doing. Kyza lv 21 (A Mordy, S strike): 58 hp, 39 Mt, 22 skl, 28 spd, 16 lck, 25 def, 15 res, 87 avo Titania lv --/20/4 (A Ulki, steel poleax): 47 hp, 48 Mt, 18 skl, 27 spd, 22 lck, 27 def, 23 res, 91 avo Yeah, I certainly can’t argue Kyza is better, but it’s not like he’s getting completely outclassed. The only thing Titania’s really crushing Kyza in is attack, but all this means is Titania lands all of her kills cleanly whereas Kyza is a lot more borderline on his kills, so most of that advantage is sheer overkill. Durability’s a lot closer (11 hp vs 2 def, 12 res and 4 avo) but we already showed that Kyza is plenty durable as it is, so all we’re showing is that Titania’s lolinvincible, which seems to support her being close to top tier in most FE10 tier lists. Though, perhaps showing Kyza is only doing somewhat worse than a high tier unit isn’t quite as convincing as showing someone in the GMs he clearly beats. Bah, what the hell, this has reached tl;dr already. Kyza lv 21 (A Mordy, S strike): 58 hp, 39 Mt, 22 skl, 28 spd, 16 lck, 25 def, 15 res, 87 avo Oscar lv --/20/2 (A Boyd, steel greatlance): 47 hp, 41 Mt, 27 skl, 27 spd, 23 lck, 22 def, 19 res, 114 avo The attack gap is much smaller (only 4 damage per double) and Kyza beats Oscar in durability everywhere except avoid, which he has a sizeable 27 point lead in. At the very least, you can definitely claim that Kyza is on Oscar’s level, and Oscar is a pretty good unit. Yeah, 6 pages in word trying to argue that Kyza > nothing in part 3. I think by now it’s been clearly established that with the speedwing, Kyza can definitely contribute to an efficient part 3 completion since his offence and durability are fairly impressive even if it is rather difficult to find a GM he’s doing better than. In other words, Kyza’s part 3 – the negative of the speedwing – Lucia’s 2-2 win = a rather good head start for Kyza when Lucia joins. Now onto direct comparisons. Before mentioning anything about part 4 Kyza vs Lucia though, not that Kyza can go on any route he likes whereas Lucia’s locked to Tibarn’s group. This is particularly advantageous for Kyza in Micaiah’s group since he can choose to go in the desert, where he has full 9 move transformed while most of your units are stuck with 1-2 move. Kyza lv 22 (A Mordy, S strike): 58 hp, 41 Mt, 24 skl, 28 spd, 16 lck, 27 def, 15 res, 92 avo Lucia lv 15 (Steel blade): 39 hp, 31 Mt, 28 skl, 28 spd, 19 lck, 14 def, 15 res, 95 avo Kyza is devouring Lucia in this match-up, no euphemisms intended. Although both characters share the same speed, Kyza does a whopping 10 damage more per hit, which is 20 per double, and he still wins attack no matter what fancy sword Lucia chooses to switch to. Durability’s also a blowout, as Kyza’s double digit lead in hp and defence easily trump 3 avoid. Now let’s go back to that attack lead and put it into perspective. Most enemies have roundabout 40 hp and 20 def, so if Lucia does 24 damage, then Kyza’s doing 44. Easy 1 round for Kyza, and a barebones 2 round for Lucia. Major difference. Now let’s suppose it’s a general, and now the def is more like 28. Lucia does lolable single digit damage while Kyza’s doing more than 50% damage. An even bigger win for Kyza. And now let’s get into applying the durability difference. If Kyza’s taking in 10 damage (6HKOed), Lucia’s taking in 23 (2HKOed). Kyza’s defence lead is enough to take thrice as many attacks in this case. The enemies doing less damage to Kyza is once again in his favor. Suppose he takes 3 damage (20HKOed), then Lucia is taking 16 damage (3HKOed). Major lulz at Lucia taking about 1/6th of the hits that Kyza can in this case. I suppose Lucia could take adept to offset her bad offence, but Kyza could use it just as well (same spd stat of course) and such a resource consumption would partially cancel out with Kyza having used the speedwing we used on him. So that’s leading nowhere. Okay, but Lucia can level super fast and also has a super h3x earth affinity, mirite? Well, she can only reach B Earth at best for 4-E, and that’s being quite generous (1 support level per chapter is pretty dang fast). Also, most of your non-sucky characters already have an established support, so Lucia would have to settle for someone like Pelleas. Let’s jump to 4-E, where Lucia might actually stand a chance in this comparison. Lucia lv --/20/10 (B Tanith, Vague Katti): 48 hp, 45 Mt, 38 skl, 37 spd, 24 lck, 19 def, 25 res, 143 avo Kyza lv 26 (A Mordecai, SS strike): 62 hp, 48 Mt, 28 skl, 30 spd, 18 lck, 29 def, 15 res, 93 avo A lot more arguable than before. Kyza still wins attack and doesn’t have trouble doubling generals or sages (generals have ~24-26 spd in 4-E-1 and sages have slightly less), which the first endgame chapter is almost entirely composed of, so he appears to win offence. However, I do suppose Lucia has a 19% astra and maybe like a 15% crit chance, which gives her a 53% chance to kill enemies at neutral bio (assuming double), though with a little effort, Kyza could more or less match that with a 51% roar. Overall, offence can maybe be considered tied at this point. For durability, Kyza still has a 14 hp and 10 def lead, but Lucia has a whopping 50 avoid lead so she isn’t getting hit much. The advantage goes to Lucia, even though the gens are only doing about 13 damage to Kyza with 50ish hit rates (5HKO), so he’s only healing himself maybe once or twice in the chapter, whereas Lucia might not have to. Not a very large advantage, if you ask me. But wait, there’s a lot that hasn’t been considered here. First of all, I gave Lucia 16 levels to Kyza’s 4 despite the fact that Kyza’s far outperforming her in 4-2 and 4-5, and also doesn’t have crappy CEXP gains against enemy laguz the way he does against beorc. Secondly, I gave Lucia a B Tanith support that I already clarified would probably only be a C, and also implies that Tanith’s sacrificing whatever support she has so far to get this one. Finally, Lucia has to compete with the likes of Zihark and Mia for the Vague Katti, whereas Kyza doesn’t have any competition for his fangs (lol), though I guess that could cancel out with Kyza wanting a laguz gem here. I won’t really delve into much more of 4-E. I’ll grant that Lucia wins 4-E-2 from a sheer doubling advantage, and could also seize 4-E-3 due to the wyrmslayer, though from her on to 4-E-5 her avoid isn’t looking so hot against 170+ hit rates, which makes her def disadvantage to Kyza more apparent. Well, to be honest, she also wins 4-E-4 and 5 again for a doubling advantage, though it should be noted that Kyza can double spirits besides Nasir since he’ll have a respectable 35 speed. The thing is, Lucia’s also rather bad in the only 3 chapters where she beats Kyza, so it’s questionable for her to even be fielded. Again, I don’t want to cover this in-depth yet (we can do that in subsequent counters) but Lucia’s doing pretty bad against auras. At max level, she averages 27 str, so she has 47 Mt with the VK. Against side auras, that’s only 34 damage (37%), and does a considerably worse 14 damage (15%) against corner auras. In comparison, a lv 32 Kyza with SS strike and A Mordy has 55 MT, so he’s doing 25 damage to side auras (27%) and 15 to corner auras (16%). Though both are sucking hard (no pun intended), Lucia’s lead is pretty small (avg of 26% vs avg of 21.5%) though Lucia does have the first turn and gets better bonuses from red dragons. So in conclusion, Kyza being rather good in part 3 w/ the speedwing + pwning Lucia in 2 part 4 chapters >>> Lucia being pwn in 2-2 and possibly beating Kyza in 4-E

Just wanted to announce that the gamefaqs FE10 debates got moved here due to all of my topics getting moderated since according to the mods there, debates are not relevant to the gameplay or plot. I don't know what kind of twisted logic that follows, but that's besides the point. Anyway, good luck to all the participants, though with Mekkah, Reikken, Smash and Red Fox all in the same tournament, this could be quite epic.

Just to confirm: Kyza lv 17 would count as a lv 34 or 20/14 unit. So against a a lv 20/11 enemy, he's getting Atk exp = deltalevel/2 + 5 Atk exp = (11-14)/2 + 5 = 4 exp per hit But you said there's a +5 exp bonus on HM, so it should be 9. As for kills, it's 5+ (11-14) + 15 = 17 exp. I'm not sure if the +5 exp would be applied twice, so it could be anywhere from 22-27 exp.

May I inquire why? Also, I have Charmander's post but not Smash's. Does anyone have his opener saved?