[So....]

Who here wouldn't mind an Ookami 2?

[So...let's talk tiers.]

You've played H5, right?

Exactly my point.

Right. He's fine where he's at on the tier list.

11 base speed is fine and his Str will pick up.

Okay, but this is not going to make Vyland better than he's already considered since it's more of a player strategy than a strength he has.

Also, Vyland's doing a better job at Social Knight/Paladin than other classes. He gets an auto-D in lances and good enough speed growth. He gets awful Defense as a Swordfighter, and he is hindered by the natural disadvantages the Archer class.

So no, he's not doing every job the same.

-I've stated many times I haven't even played the game. I could easily see him being bad in H5 though...I haven't played this game, but it's apparently FE1 on steroids and class swap. Played FE1 and beat it, so the best I have is a general idea.

- The wing spear and Rapier are things only Shiida and Marth can use, they aren't taking horseslayers/armorslayers if they're using them, so it isn't unreasonable to think Vyland has a chance at these two weapons. They get slayer weapons yeah, but they aren't horseslayers/armorslayers. Meaning Vyland has a chance at the resources.

- I dunno, being one of the few who has no reason not to class adapt, I'd say he could have some good moments...

- Ok, Matthis will be doubling, but 3 strength with swords...He might pick it up, but he'll be taking his sweet time to do so. 3 strength is giggleworthy. Matthis wouldn't realistically dream of being a swordfighter. He'd MUCH prefer archer.

- True, but it's one he does the best. I will say it again, no one else would want to class adapt aside from maybe Nabarl. It's better than just the mediocre cavalier throughout. It isn't a strength, just an option. BUT, it's an option he would definitely prefer.

- He wouldn't WANT to be a swordfighter either, since he has swords anyways as a cav. But as a cav, he has no advantage against flyers. He has the option to switch to archer to help against those annoyances. He shoots a draco knight and someone finishes it off OR he could take out a single annoying pegasi. But all he has from being a cavalier is an auto-D. In exchange from the archer and mage is that he has to attack/counter as a cavalier. That normally is an advantage if you aren't fragile. Vyland is fragile though, so having the option of changing to archer (for the flyers) or mage (to weaken armors safely rather than get hurt using an armorslayer) without really losing much in the stats he's weak in (attack, defense) is an advantage he actually has. He is not godly indeed, but he has good uses. I would imagine anyways...You might say "but so can the god cavs!", but they're durable, have the speed and power to not NEED to change class to be more than mediocre, which is why they're godly in the first place. Being good in some situations is better than being bland throughout.

Archer class is only a disadvantage if you are good as anything else. For the glass Vyland is made of even as a cavalier, he could afford to stand back and equip a bow every now and then. He can be a cavalier when there is low enemy density (there is a lot of low density in this game, but I'm talking like 3 or 4 enemies, he doesn't have the durability to stand up to a whole squad. Norda Slave Trade in that area with some of the mercenaries comes to mind. The guys who charge toward you would gang rape Vyland, but he could afford to go up against the mercs along with the other cavs since they wouldn't be able to focus fire Vyland...or was that FE3 where you were charged by cavaliers and horsemen? He can be an archer in maps where flyers are a high annoyance or generally would prefer to stand back. Mage would only be good for like 1 chapter though, so mage is out.

...Which case, he'd just be switching between Cavalier and archer. but he's no reason to focus on stats when he'd just prefer to be utility.

Hmmm...perhaps now I'm starting to see your point. But still, being good depending on the situation is better than being vanilla throughout, right?

-

[So...let's talk tiers.]

On Harder modes, he is a much crappier unit anyway due to the enemy stats.

Pretty much any Mage can do this, Sheeda really being the best since she's guaranteed to double, while Vyland isn't.

Quality of their best job is weighed far more than how many jobs they can do.

Jeigan, Hardin, and Sheeda can do this task just fine. And pretty much any Social Knight above Vyland and the Pegasus Knights not named Est are the best users of slayer weapons. Marth as well.

Matthis can play Swordfighter/Swordmaster.

Adapting to situations isn't going to mean much if you're not excelling at them and your class swapped role is easily replaced by just using another character.

- Yeah, so finding good uses for him in situations would be better than just outright dismissing him, right?

- K then, Vyland has no reason to be a mage then. Will help save him from 1 or 2 levels of no strength and defense, and if he doesn't do the job as well, then he's no reason to do it.

- Yeah, and Vyland doesn't really any job any better than the other, outside of mage and curate.

- Sheeda has the wing spear and Marth has the rapier anyways though. The god cavs don't really NEED those weapons though...Jeigan and Hardin though...yeah, got me there. Vyland won't be seeing any more use than either of them in harder modes...

- Matthis as a swordfighter starts with 3 strength and if you wait till later he'll have average speed at best. If anything, he'd be switching on and off (lol, mounting/dismounting). Either he isn't really doing amazing doubling later, or he might as well be using a feather at the start and tickling people with it. Eventually, he's gonna tickle the wrong guy and get his eye scooped out. As an archer though, he has slow a start as any of them, but ends up resembling something pretty cool in time. Not sure if people reach 20/20 by the end, but the way he grows is a lot like FE9 Shinon. Ok strength, great durability, has pretty nice speed, just a slow start. Only exception is that you actually get Matthis at a reasonable time and his growths aren't substantially overkill and grows into it over time. Starts out basically no better than the other archers, but grows into a great one eventually.

Actually it's quite the opposite. If you're not doing any job better than the other, you might as well class adapt. There's no excuse not to. So it's either Vyland can adapt to the situation when others don't want to/ don't need to, or be kept as a mediocre cavalier. Option A sounds better than option B.

[Homosexuality]

With gays in the military thing, the don't ask don't tell thing seems rather pointless in general as when one thinks of the military, they generally think of self improving and defending their country, not of all the possible gay sex there could be. All it would be doing is make those enlisted lie about theirselves when they get a break and their just talking about life back home. Because in the military, you'd expect a sort of professionalism that they wouldn't have sex EVER in ANY way unless on leave. Getting kicked out for being gay is just...well 1. it's unfair, and 2. it's just bizzare. What's the reasoning? It's unholy? That goes against freedom of religion and seperation of church and state. Not to mention it's an insane thing to make happen because...how do you convince something like the military kicking people out based on something being unholy to certain religious laws?

It's not like gay people are significantly worse at being soldiers. No one really makes a real reason for why gays aren't allowed in the military. It makes people uncomfortable? I'd expect less whining from a soldier. Waaahhh, a gay guy's looking me over...

People are too uptight dude.

[Your guilty pleasures]

Dragonforce. Those motherfuckers can't even play their own songs. Listen to them, you'll know why I'd consider it a guilty pleasure.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Vyland loses these advantages as well. Let's not create a double standard.

This is where I'm starting to think it's only more important in harder modes as he can't use those advantages too well. His strength makes his attacks a bit meh and he doesn't exactly have defense. He'd basically be dependent on slayer weapons (another reason I'm starting to think it'll be more obvious in harder modes because now he can just use javelins to take out mages if they attack him anyways, and he can smack them dead on the offense. Harder modes, I don't think he has the starting stats to pull this off and I would think it would take at least a small bit for him to get to that level.). Another reason being he can have access to slaying effects. He's gonna be dependent on them in harder modes, why not adjust him to have slayer advantage against a problematic enemy depending on the chapter to help hurt the enemy so that your good guys can nab the exp kill without fear and easier. As a mage in chapter 7 (The one with Ricardo imprisoned), he can use magic to weaken the armor knights from a distance to keep safe, so your armorslayer/hammer guys will have a safer time taking them out. Same goes for archer for those draco/pegasi knights in the Trap of Lefcandy map (or whatever they're calling it now). Even helping as a cav against the horse units in the same way (except this time he'll actually eat a counter).

There are better cavs than him. In fact, there are plenty of others who are bad at other jobs and their own. Vyland's lucky he's average as everything aside from mage. Basically he'll be a designated hitter. He'll help when you need it (example, those lefcandy flyers. You'll have like Gordin and Castor as your only usable archers that aren't units class changed from a better class like Cain and Abel, outside of possibly Roshea and/or Matthis. You'd want only one more archer for safety. Vyland can do this, and he is an option to choose from that is Roshea and Matthis. None of them have a good start as archers, so Vyland can at least be a usable option here to be an archer for the chapter.). He's there to abuse slayer use as his speed will later help make him the best user of it. Only difference is later, Vyland can do something else with the same ease he can do any job available to him, while Matthis and Roshea will be stuck as archers. So while Vyland is more situational, he can at least adapt to change his use in a given situation.

I think I should stop here because now I just feel like I'm repeating myself.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Cain/Abel are awesome in any class.

True, but I wish to clarify. They are indeed awesome as any class. But with cav mobility, access to weapons like javelins, armorslayers, hoseslayers and levin swords, changing them to archer is kinda pointless. Same goes for mage. Being a myrmidon is basically trading mobility, another weapon set, and better defense for overkill speed they don't need. Being a curate is rather redundant with how many staff users the game throws at you anyways. Only thing they'd care to change into is draco knights to get axes and flying.

They are awesome as any class, but why would they want to be anything other than a cavalier? Vyland at least has a reason to class adapt, that reason being because he's the only one who'd care to. Vyland has kind of a slow start. He has no reason not to.

Maybe this will have more impact in harder modes where he would struggle to find a use...

By the way, what are your thoughts on Knight!Bord? Or however that's done...

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Mage Vyland isn't a chapter specific strategy. It's a whole game dedication to him being Mage since class swapped Mages from physical units absolutely depend on their Magic growth.

Vyland actually isn't that bad. The only reason he sucks is because of join time. If the Social Knights you start with the game are all powerful, then Vyland is an example of a Social Knight that actually *does* have average stats.

All Mages are getting one rounded, even one hit KO'd from some characters.

If Vyland had no uses, he wouldn't be in Mid tier. Don't forget the thing that hurts him: Join time, not his stats.

Oh, he's there due to his join time?...Ok. Nevermind then. But to clear some things up...

Mage being a dedication? Why would you keep him a mage? He'll have two levels of meh that he won't miss out in his weaker areas anyways. He starts early enough to make his low starting magic usable since at the time it isn't like Maric's will be much better. He'll have like 1 chapter of being a mage just to help push everyone from doing well to kicking ass. Any longer of being a mage and he'll be weak as a mage anyways.

That's my point, he is average. So what's it gonna hurt him to class adapt? Others are awesome in one class, he can be average as anything. Yeah the god cavs can do anything, but they don't care to change classes as they can do everything as cavs anyways.

I meant HE gets range magic. Having him change to mage to attack mages isn't awful bright. But like I said, he's only being a mage for like one chapter.

But I forgot to look over the list again, my bad...Thought he was much lower...

In fact, I'm crazy to try to argue. This was originally supposed to be a suggestion XD Now I feel sorry for causing a ruckus.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

(Oh yeah, Barst probably can't use Hammers until Chapter 6 or 7 or something because he starts with a D)

Chapter 6 or 7...aren't those the hardin chapter and the ricardo in prison chapter? Because if it is, that's when you start actually finding it useful...

[My FE5 Headdesk Topic]

Here's a plan for you, because I'm bored.

1. You'll want to get rid of the Freege Armors, since they will attack the civilians, they will attack you, and they are ugly. A very easy way to do this is to use long-range magic. Sadly, only Eyrios can use Bolting straight up, and you don't get a lot of Bolting tomes to steal throughout the game (and you may not even have done it). I usually let Asvel build up his Fire level to A (takes looong, but Fire isn't much worse than Wind or Thunder anyway), and use the various Meteor tomes.

Alternatively, you can simply place someone bulky on the upper left entrance with no weapons equipped, and put a ranged attacker such as Asvel behind him. The Freege Armors move before the Lenster ones, clog up in front of the entrance, and you can pick them off at your pleasure. Put a scroll on your doorstop character to avoid him getting critted, and either have staves or vulneraries handy as well. You may even want to put all scrolls on this character, since he'll be standing there for a while taking hits and prolly gets a few level-ups.

2. Now, during all this, you can set the civilians free. You can use other people to carry them to the door if you wish. The Lenster Armors won't attack the civilians. You can try figuring out which civilian belongs to which Armor through the internet, or you can do trial and error. The civilians will automatically walk to the Armor they belong to. The biggest problem is that the converted Armors and the hostile one will attack each other, and they have Killer Lances/Hammers. To get around it, I would recommend stealing the Killer Lances (Hammers will probably be too heavy, though Tina Staff + Holy Water/M Up can get around that) at the very least. Other than that, savestates, savestates, savestates. Ship off the green armors with a rescue chain if you can, though only bodybuilders like Othin and Dagda will likely be able to carry. You can also put the converted Armors to sleep, as this will likely get them killed without them countering. Green dudes dying = no problem.

3. Repeat, and then have Leaf walk to Xavier. Xavier will talk to Leaf if he gets the opportunity. Avoid getting too close to him when not all the Armors have been converted yet, as Xavier also likes to attack you, or his own men if he feels like it.

I thank you for the info man. Just one question. Is he worth the pain? Because I'd just rather not use him...as good as the Eryos thunderbolt move is (he starts with a tome, one is easily gettable in that chapter that introduces olwen and fred by having karin fly up to the bishop and capture him), I'd rather not waste them here on one guy I might or might not use...Because damn. Definitely wouldn't wanna waste thief staves on such basic stuff...

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Vyland needs a C in Axes before he can use the Hammer. Not likely unless you give him arms scrolls.

Ok...Well that would hamper him a bit...Guess he'll be a paladin or swordmaster for his armorslaying needs. He could go mage a bit, but if he waited, he'd be doing poor damage, but in exchange with the bit of magic he gets, he could use levin swords, but this is grasping at this point.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Why do people think they'll lose a lot of stats? Maybe if they become a Mage, but you would need to dedicate any character to become a Magic user anyway, Vyland included.

The levels they gained in one class is going to carry over to another class. So if you trained Abel as a Social Knight, he's going to be a good Archer statistically if you can get his bow rank up. Just because a class isn't optimal doesn't mean it's inherently bad. It just goes to further prove that a good character is a good character.

And your idea of using class swap to create temporary changes to suit different chapters is not going to hurt character growth at all. Maybe like, one or two levels will be different and that's it.

Caesar gets to use the Armor Slayer once he reaches C Swords.

By the time they can class swap, they're already set in weapon rank. The weapon rank is a problem for switching to new classes, not the main class.

Yes. More than enough room in fact.

Just fight the armors like you normally would if you have to use a Lance user or, you know, use a Social Knight that has a C in Swords.

So you're dedicating him as a Dracoknight then. The best class for him to be trained up to become this is Social Knight.

You're overrating the Hammer's usefulness based on what I said, since the Hammer is hardly going to be used lategame. For the early game chapters where you would want to class swap into a Mage, you either already have a Mage, or you can have Barst or Bord use the Hammer. That's what I mean when I talked about the Hammer.

So can any other Social Knight that's better than he is.

- Vyland doesn't have good strength growth anyways, He is one of the few physical guys who wouldn't care switching to mage.

- Again, Vyland is purely situational. He's helping majorly early on this way. In fact with this, he's only helping the god cavs have an EASIER time being even godlier cavs as they start to reach the real breaking point of beating enemies senseless. Abel can indeed be a good archer, but he'd prefer to be a good cavalier as long as he can. If you're good, becoming an archer is practically a penalty combat-wise. Abel can use javelins and unlike Vyland can use them well. Cain, Frey and Hardin can do the same, why would they WANT to change class if they don't have to? Vyland's only reason for class adapting is because he sucks as a cavalier, but doesn't really lose or gain anything from going to another class. If he's doing no job masterfully, he might as well do every job when the need calls for a specific talent, yeah? I'd prefer it be him than the god cavs. They wouldn't care to have bows and definitely don't wanna be mages. Vyland wouldn't care being any of these.

- Precisely, Ceasar doesn't NEED to class change to slay armors with even greater ease.

- Good point about weapon rank...Though, Vyland obviously comes later than them with lower rank/Hardin just flat out outranks him with weapon use. Would mean his ranks are low regardless. Only helps my point.

- K then, point taken.

- K then. Maybe going mage is a bit more for harder difficulties, as this is lol, normal mode...but there is no general character discussion thread anyways.

- HA! How? All he needs is a high enough rank in lances to get horseslayer. He's the only one needing to put slayer weapons to use by that point. Who else wants them at that point? Once he gets that lance rank, he doesn't care what he does. Once he goes draco knight, it won't matter as none of the class has stat growths that fix his two main problems, strength and defense. None of the classes give him so killer an amount of defense growth as to keep him there to make him a better draco knight. Reason he can pull this off is because he doesn't change much at all via class swap.

- Ok, THIS is a good point. Why bother when bord, cord and barst can kill armors anyways? Simple. Ranged magic. Lets him do good damage so someone else can finish off the armor. But you say why can't the axers? Well why have them kill ALL the armors? No harm in giving at least one free kill to someone not the axers. Can't have the axers do everything, can we? Helps save physical weapon use, keeps Vyland safe, AND can counter archers if he is of course the only one they target. All it really means is he won't be shot at by archers unless they can gang-kill him, but he can still hurt them if they try. But the main point is that with magic, armors aren't the only one unit vulnerable to it. He can chip at any unit that's troublesome at that point (he's not being a mage for long, your guys won't need much babying, if at all by then.). Once he's done being a mage for like a chapter, he's off doing whatever job needs to be done. Hell, he can help be all cavaliery if you need another cav to rush to a point. Sure, the cav gods are godly and all, but a little back-up never hurt, right? But again, he isn't exactly gonna be a mage for long, most likely one chapter at best just to help as your guys are juust starting to get awesome. Mage Vyland makes that smaaalll push all much easier.

As for lategame hammer...there are a few troublesome generals here or there. He can fly in and hammertime. It isn't so much a hammer as much as a flying hammer. It's either him or Minerva, and if you're using him for that long, he'll be higher level than Katria when she finally decides to show up and Paula is good for a moment until she can use both slayer weapons as a dracoknight. But if anyone is closer to flying hammer aside from Minerva already able to, it's Vyland. Then again, I might be overreacting from how insane the hammer was in Radiant Dawn...The hammer was epic there. I believe Haar, a flying dude who could wield it, was one of the main reasons it was pretty awesome and the fact it could be passed around like a blunt with all the axe users in that game .

- Of course the god cavs can do it better, but they're so good as cavs that they couldn't be bothered to. Vyland, and perhaps Nabarl, are the only ones who could possibly give a damn about class adapting.

You overstate the fact that the god cavs (Hardin is intelligent, Abel a courageous knight and Cain the powerful...can we call them The Triforce?) can do anything Vyland can. No dur, they outclass practically the whole cast. Doesn't mean Vyland has no uses. Why bother having a list if the god cavs can just do everything by themselves? Zagaro could solo the game, why bother with anyone else? Vyland has his uses. I'm not trying to argue him up, just showing he is more than just a mediocre cav. From there, you guys can take what you will from it. I'm just here to point out the finer details.

I'm rather enjoying myself Chainey ^^

As a note, I'm not trying to bring Vyland up to the god cavs, I'm aware he doesn't compare to them. His dependency (though good use of) slayer weapons proves this. Not that anyone else will care to use them eventually...

[So...let's talk tiers.]

And characters above him are doing a better job at this flexibility than he is. Higher tier characters having better growths (as well as higher stats from being leveled up) means that they suffer less from the changes as well.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad idea if you want to use Vyland, I just don't see it affecting his tier position.

Vyland is easily an odd character, perhaps why I'm so bent on trying to argue his position in a tier list for a game I have yet to play XD.

The question with the high tier guys is to ask the simple question of WHY they'd want to change. They lose solid stats, slow down weapon rank, and in the case of the god cavs losing mobility. Vyland ends up mediocre anyways. His position is based on him being mediocre, but not of his luxury status. Why would the likes of the god cavs go archer or mage when they're solid as cavs? Why would Oguma or Barst wanna be armor knights? Why would Ceasar wanna be a fighter for the sake of hammers when he comes a bit late to be the designated hitter Vyland is, especially when he makes a pretty cool mercenary and hero as it is? Why change crappy A class guys to myrmidons/cavs to bring their rank up to enough for armorslayers just to take out a single armor knight (if at all) and risk getting their fragile ass handed to them?

Vyland's advantage is A. starts as a cav to easily build sword rank for an armor slayer when he needs it, B. Joins early enough to put the mage job to good use for his weak starting power AS one as it most likely won't be any better or worse than Maric's for a bit (who's high up for being a curate if I recall, so having a backup mage is VERY helpful) which helps make the armorslayer pointless for his time of use, and C. can do jobs others wouldn't care to do. Why overload the minerva intro chapter with archers when two or three will be enough? Charging through the ricardo chapter with mages is dumb. Now thinking of this, this game throws money at you, but does the caravan have enough room for all the crap you'd need to store to make everyone switching classes actually work? You'd be lugging around a hell of a lot of stuff to make that work well. The game throws money at you, but room in the caravan is hte problem. Besides, Vyland exists to make these chores not overkill. He's there to make things easier, not dominate. Obviously, because it's doubtful he'll get much use anyways. Only reason he can pull this off is because he's the only one who can do it well because he's the only one who comes early enough.

Only other person I can imagine doing the same is like...Gordin. Again, it's only because he comes early enough to do it well. Only difference is how he will be used. Early in chapters he'll help against the flyers, later can help as a tanky cav to make a mobile semi-wall, but again, won't be too useful due to his wonky starting stats. Vyland not only is one of the few who can do this, but I vouch he's the only one who can AFFORD to do it well as he's the only one who has the luxury due to not losing much from doing so.

Hell, if you bother to promote him, he gets extra padding, can fly and gets axes to eventually learn to use hammers while having awesome speed thanks to speed being his good growth and being in the A set class makes sure it stays good, those hammers helping against lategame generals. Game has lots of lancemen, his low weapon rank won't matter due to hitting the enemy for a bit of damage anyways. Would be his weak moment basically. Then he gets the hammer. This then gives him use lategame even. He still won't be anything special, but having nice speed and weapon selection, and flight would certainly help.

That last part is just sorta a pulled out my ass thing, but it's a thought to consider...Again, only reason he'd want to be a draco knight is for the hammer to stay good, while he could switch to paladin with a levin sword (due to a bit of magic he might have got as a mage) and armorslayer in hand, he will basically go from doing anything you need him to do to situational at best.

Man...that was long winded. tl;dr, Vyland is the lizard king, he can do anything.

Now seeing your comment about A class, who in A class can do this well/cares to? The god cavs don't care to, they're good already. They get them fancy armorslayers too, and probably won't really need them more than Vyland does. Same goes for Horseslayer (something I COMPLETELY forgot about). Gordin's starting stats are wonky, Riff is a healer end of story, same with Lena, Roshea would prefer to stay an archer as he can't do anything else well enough, the prepromotes either don't care or are stuck to one class, Thomas sucks and Boa+Maria would rather stick with staves. Only other person I could think of who could also do this is Nabarl, who actually has good gains for each class. Great myrmidon speed growth, great cavalier defense growth, good strength growth as an archer, has 5% more magic growth than most in A class that starts in physical classes and has decent stats as a mage...He'd clearly do it better than Vyland. Again though, it's because he comes early enough, just he happens to have some good growths as any of these classes and wouldn't mind not being a myrmidon due to myrmidon having crappy strength for him.

EDIT: Now thinking of it, why would he need to be anything else once a draco knight? He'll have enough spear level for horseslayers for the ton of horse units and hammers for the troublesome armors, unless dracoknights lose spears...Hell, he'll have range weapons to hit mages.

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Starting to sound rude? It's probably more polite than 90% of the people posting in this thread.

He has a point though. The upper tiers are hindered by the archer class; the lower tiers are helped by the archer class. The fact of the matter is... if nobody cares about something, then it should be entitled to the one that does care. In which case, there are plenty of archer spots not being used and a few chars who want it so why not? They're pretty much best as Archers anyway.

Was raised to be modest. I'm...overly polite until I'm more used to a situation.

True, but my point with Vyland is that he won't do good in ANY class, thus why he can just change class depending on the mission. If he's doing no job well, he might as do ANY job when he can, right? If anything, he's the most adaptable because he's the only one who can afford to do so and do it without any real loss. Roshea is a better archer because as a frontliner he's getting his ass kicked anyways. He might as well try his best to sit back and shoot arrows rather than put himself in danger by attacking directly, right? It'll help his speed a bit, he has beastly attack as an archer so each hit will hurt like hell, defense won't matter if he's not getting attacked and even if he is, he has beastly HP to protect him from the one or two guys attacking him if they do manage to target him. If he has any supports with anyone in the Wolfguard, this would help him AND his supporters even more, if by a little bit.

Speaking of class changes making people better, anyone give knight Bord a thought? Pretty much starts with more defense than Doga, better defense and strength growths, both have speed and luck problems that won't be fixed any time soon...Only problem is that Bord is pretty much stuck with absolute 0 speed, but will it matter if he's not getting hurt anyways? He just trades speed for painful shots and better defense. Sound like a fair trade for a knight?

As for the class swap favoritism, most in B class would absolutely hate to be dark mages, you have PLENTY of people who can be good axe users for the hammer anyways (Barst, Cord, Ogma in some situations). You really need more than three hammer bros? Some have a hard time pulling off being a knight too. Knights can't really do anything other than stand there. By the time you class swap, you have Doga and then Bord can be used as one for the time he might be used, which isn't any longer than Doga in my opinion. Switch them to dark mage when Zagaro shows up. It's only favoritism if everyone can do well in said class, and some do certain jobs quite a bit better, enough to warrent them a job (or else, Zagaro and Wolf are WAY too high). Vyland's advantage is he's one of the few in the game that REALLY has nothing better to do. Won't rise him up much, if at all really. Garbage like Thomas and Lawrence won't matter as they come late anyways, right? Most others have jobs they'd like to keep. Vyland is like the only one who has the luxury to class adapt as everyone else either has jobs they'd like to keep and do good at, come late, or suck no matter what.

[Lol Blagojevich]

WaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitwaitWAIT!

He's boycotting HIS OWN impeachment hearing? Isn't there a whole LAW thing that would kind of require him to go to trial due to...well...being tried?

The balls on this guy...

[Favorite fighting series?]

Mighty Wings is from Top Gun, y'know, the movie. SF2 ripped it off with Ken's Theme.

Art of Fighting is several years before Fatal Fury.

I prefer Sol and Slayer myself.

Oh! Didn't know that XD Yeah, it's awesome.

Ahhh, prequel. K then. Never played it, but at least I know what it is.

Sol and Slayer!? *eyes narrow, dramatic music plays* You are like my rival...and he killed my pet wombat...You walk the path of evil!

[So...let's talk tiers.]

That's fine. It's just that any effort to bring a lower tier character to full potential can also be applied to the better characters. Think of tiers as more of a listing of weapons at your disposal and not as a set of strategies that you must follow.

Not so. Those higher guys will delay weapon level growth this way. Those higher guys are good enough at base class, switching them would be a waste (those higher guys, I mean the godly cavaliers). I'd rather not wait for awesome people to be more awesome. Vyland on the other hand ends up mediocre, so he won't be doing well as his original class anyways. He wants to jump different classes because 1. None of the god cavs cares to and 2. None of the god cavs wants to anyways. The god cavs don't wanna be archers, they don't wanna be mages, they don't want to be anything but cavs. Those above him would prefer to stick to a class or class branch (Hunter->General and such). Vyland wouldn't mind multi-classing because he's the only one that would realistically give a damn to. He won't end up well, might as well make him pretty awesome for a shining moment rather than forcing him to stick with a certain path to be generally bland.

...Ok, I'm starting to sound rude. I should stop while I'm ahead. I've had a general warm welcome here, no need to turn it cold.

[Was Brawl just a fad?]

No, you DI towards the corner of the screens if you're getting knocked off the stage. Input the DI right as you get hit, and use the C-STick to aid you. This puts you in a much better position to recover since you gain height, or even Ganoncide.

You'd be shocked at the kind of percentages someone that is good with DI can survive at.

Ohhhhh! Ok...THAT definitely helps...

...But then this just makes the killing take even LONGER, which takes forever as it is. Odd. Either get bored waiting or get bored finding it no challenge...Brawl is so weirdly designed.

[Favorite fighting series?]

Oh yeah, 16-bit Mighty Wings *drools*

Guilty Gear is very good, but the DS one suck MAJORLY.

Another quite good fighting series is Art of Fighting, the third installment was specially good.

Mighty Wings, Mighty Wings...Which one was that again? I was more a fan of Super Turbo's Blood on the pavement (Ken's Theme), and whatever the hell Zangief's theme was called...and M. Bison's...and Fei Long's...and Cammys...and E. Honda's...Super Turbo had an awesome soundtrack XD

Art of Fighting....Isn't that a spin-off of the Fatal Fury storyline?

Yes, Guilty Gear is quite good. Faust and Johnny rule you.

[Was Brawl just a fad?]

...K, obviously I'm missing something because the only way he could DI going upwards was into DK's feet as they meteor'd him...You can DI upward?

[So...let's talk tiers.]

Nobody is preventing you from doing this and the only thing that's limiting this strategy are weapon levels starting out at E. It's just not going to affect tier lists since the characters above him are much better at adapting than he is.

No. She comes onto a chapter where she can farm on Pegasus Knight reinforcements, and the next chapter is full of Mages for her to kill. Not to mention that a level 10 Katua is going to be better than a level 20 Sheeda in every single way.

They may indeed adapt much better than he, but how many of them care to or actually need to? I'm aware of the penalties of class swap, I just want to see how effective some characters can actually be when used to their best potential and his seems to be able to do all the stuff no one else cares to do/aren't actually able to do well anyways. Vyland has been main interest though for me because he looks like a medieval hitman. I'll still use him, but I THINK I'm trying to argue a list I've virtually know clue of it's more intricate parts...*slaps myself* I should know better, sorry. You'd know much better I suppose...You HAVE played the game after all, and you definitely seem to know what you're talking about. But hey, like I said, just throwing out suggestions...Besides, he ain't doing any favors staying as a cavalier when he doesn't need to be, right?

As for Katua...yup. Makes sense. Noted.

[My FE5 Headdesk Topic]

An FE5 topic of painful or weird moments I take it? Like a discussion thread of sorts? Well then, I gots me a question...Spoilers?

How do I recruit that fucker Xavier? I saw the requirements and immediately crapped myself. How do I pull off this Jackie Chan stunt of a character recruitment?

[Favorite fighting series?]

Don't forget the epic music it had too.

As for guilty gear, there ARE tons of layers to it, but it's still fun casually underneath it and plays just like any other fighter game then. Just not as insane as the competitive stuff. Seriously, I think they have to be on crack to manage playing that game like that.

[Was Brawl just a fad?]

Once again, something that can be balanced around. If you really want to avoid a Meteor, try air dodging.

EDIT: Better yet, try spacing. Don't jump straight towards the stage. Make it harder to get yourself spiked and go around your opponent. DI is important for a reason, so make sure when you get knocked off the stage you're DIing in such a way that you're going into the sky and not below the stage.

Brawl has worse balance issues than Captain Falcon being crappy.

It's more my friend, he's the ganon man, I'M the DK dude. But still, I saw how easy the meteor was. His only option WAS towards the stage, he wasn't high in the air. He was far enough that he could grab the ledge IF he third jumped. He was in the middle of a second jump. He had just started it when I jumped after him. IF he had third jumped, he'd of just got meteor'd or hit me but had done it too early. If he'd of air dodged...he'd have fallen and died. It practically was a situation ganon can't escape. Just knock ganon horizontally and DK wins. He could destroy me with ganon in melee, he knew how to play ganon. He was trying, I wasn't. Note I had also never played DK before. DK just mops the floor with ganon, it's what I meant by cookie cutter counters. Not meaning to sound rude if I came off that way, just wanted to explain it play by play for better understanding of the situation.

I'm aware the captain is the least of brawl's worries, but still...poor captain...*cries into his pillow*

[So...let's talk tiers.]

They're not the most amazing Archers and they start out pretty sluggish, but they're definitely better than your other candidates. If you want an archer, Matthis or Roshe are your guys of choice.

Nobody's forcing you to keep Vyland as a Social Knight. Tier lists are more of a judging of what a unit's best at and not setting your strategy in stone.

No, Katua likes staying as a physical unit for Merciless. She has little problem getting kills as a physical unit. I was doing it as Swordmaster, so she'll do just fine as a Pegasus/Draco/Paladin.

By the time you get Katua and Paola, you'll already be having your Healers/Mages promoted, so you should have a viable Magic user by then.

Wow, I was right about Matthis and Roshea? Damn XD Haven't even played the game. Man I can't wait for this...

Not saying Vyland should. In fact, I'm suggesting ways to make him more useful. He's mediocre no matter what he is, why not have him change class to adjust to his situation? He does it better than others for sure and it isn't like he'll be losing out in the stats he's good at and it won't fix his problematic areas anyways. He loses and gains nothing from class swap. You get him early enough to put him to good use with class swap. The chapter with Ricardo in prison has quite a few armor knights, having a spare mage around wouldn't hurt. No one else would want to become one anyways. The chapter that introduces Minerva? Those draco/peg knights are problematic, having another archer wouldn't hurt. He won't see much use, but he'll be pretty useful for that time at least.

She'll want to stay physical? Doesn't she start a bit weak for merciless though? If someone is weak, the idea that comes to mind is to keep them away from danger, so wouldn't a job that lets her strike from range do well for her? She still does pretty well as a mage. Not Maric level, but still. Or am I missing something about her being a pegasi knight that is impressive in some way?

Not arguing Paula being anything else. Flyer with good stats for the time you have her, good available weapons she can use...Arguing her something else would be crazy.

Thanks for the info though. I'm loving the sound of class-swap. Makes more characters more versatile (or at least usable in some shape or form).