Czar_Yoshi

I smell salt. My guess is that TC has had a prior run-in with Nowi haters somewhere else. TC, if you have a vendetta against someone on another forum or in real life for bashing your OTP... Then take your defense there. This forum hasn't done anything to you (intentionally, dunno if you've been a lurker). And if it has, you'd be better off being specific about it. And that sure sounds like you're trying to start something. If you make a topic, it's because you want a response.

If I may weigh in on this whole "same gender S support" thing... Any game dev worth his salt could make it work from a gameplay perspective (see FE4's replacement children), but it would be risky at best from a business perspective. There are probably a lot more potential customers that would be turned off by same-gender S supports and not buy the game than there would be customers who would buy it because of such a feature. For something that would take extra effort to add, it wasn't worth it and still isn't.

No problem. Gaiden is strange in a Black Sheep kind of way. Maybe you'll like it, maybe you won't. FE4 is definitely the broadest story, and it's more based on politics than evil dragon hunting (at the start, at least), so plot twists tend to come a little more frequently. To put things in perspective, here's a brief summary of the Prologue (and a comparison to FE8's) (all this is from the first two minutes of the game, so no spoilers): And FE8 has the second most complex political plot of any FE (counting 4 and 5 as the same) (well, maybe Tellius. They're about equal). Awakening's prologue is just "good guys fight bandits".

For the challenge? Just Chrom. You'd be amazed at what he can do all by himself, including a true solo of Normal Apo. For maximum power? I'm still planning this team out (it's my 100% DS team), but so far... Sumia!Lucina@anything x Libra!Owain@anything Fred!Inigo@Assassin (LB/All+2/GF/Agg/Deliverer) x Virion!Nah@Sniper (LB/BF/All+2/Str+2/Skl+2) Gaius!Kjelle@Assassin (LB/All+2/GF/SF/Deliverer) x Kellam!Yarne@Assassin (LB/Agg/All+2/Str+2/filler) Chrom!Cynthia@Falco (LB/All+2/Defender/GF/LF) x Avatar@Sniper (LB/Agg/BF/All+2/Skl+2) Lon'qu!Brady@Assassin (LB/Agg/All+2/GF/Deliverer) x Vaike!Noire@Sniper (LB/BF/All+2/Skl+2/AT) Ricken!Severa@Sniper (LB/GF/All+2/Skl+2/BF) x Gregor!Laurent@Assassin (LB/Agg/SF/All+2/AT) Morgan@Falco (LB/All+2/Skl+2/GF/LF) x Henry!Gerome@Assassin (LB/Agg/All+2/Deliverer/Res+10) It's still very early in the planning phase (this is my second build, the first was only for 100% DS and nothing else) and I'll probably notice a lot more that needs noticing, but at the moment this is a team with 8 leads who all have GF, 8 Mov and 100% DS (except Sumia who might get 9 Mov). Now I'm just trying to tack on as much extra useful stuff as I can. I has to drop GF on Noire because Donnel is the only -Skl father and I couldn't justify using him when I can put that extra Skl somewhere else (Morgan and Cynthia's classes) that's arguably more useful, and she always wound up hogging one of the best fathers on her support to make up for that -1 Skl. This team also should perform reasonably well with non-100% builds thanks to an Aether Morgan, 100% DS VV pair and a few pairs that can switch to magical later (Severa, Morgan, Brady and Cynthia) if needbe. Boots go on Lucina and Severa.

Base classes, promoted skills and LB? Yep, pretty easy. Fun, too. Just promoted skills? Much harder, though Rally will save you. Just base classes and unpromoted skills? Almost impossible, and requiring pre-file creation planning and a lot of luck, mainly due to Grima (if you can't hit 41 Spd, he'll ORKO you (Myrmidon x Myrmidon with tonic: 38 Spd, you're dead). If you can't hit 54 Atk, you can't damage him (Mage x Mage with Valflame: 59 atk, 3 damage. If you can't hit 31 Def (26 with Tonics), you could get OHKOed by Ignis anyway). He effectively has 200HP and you have to both reach and kill him in one turn. Good luck). All+2 helps incredibly, the only possible way to do it outside of that is having incredible luck with Chrom DSes. Barracks are also semi-required. I've actually got a run planned to see if I can beat Lunatic+ using no promoted classes/skills and no Logbook units, only allowing one clear of either LB3 or CoY3 per chapter/Paralogue. It'll be intense... And I'll be going for post-Cht.4 LB3 and not touching CoY until I've got all my Paragons. I'm still trying to find a semi-plausible way through Cht.23 though.

Well, first off Assassins are base 48 so an LB Assassin would only have 58 Skl. That said, Chrom!Inigo!Morgan (+Skl/-Def)@Assassin (LB/Lethality/RK/All+2/Skl+2) x a Sniper 48(base) +7(mods) +10(LB) +10(Rally) +8(pairup) +2(All+2) +2(Skl+2) +2(tonic) +4(Barracks) +5(Mystletainn) =98 Skl =24% Lethality, +RK =34%. Over two swings, the chance rises to 56.44%. Swap Mystletainn for a Brave and get -5 Skl (23%/33%) and four hits, and you have 79.848879% Lethality. Now, is that reliable? It's a lot better than ~30%, but it's still less than the infamous Stone Edge. More than 1 out of 5 battles will end in failure. And consider that you could easily have a Luna that's over that activation rate on a single hit without RK... The bigger problem, though, is that in order to not be instantly annihilated by four swings from something that's LB capped, rallied and with a (quite likely 100% DS and also LB capped) support, Dragonskin is required. Even the Nightmare Sniper with 70 Def and Pavise+ might not be able to pull the job. Even if Lethality does activate, it won't matter because the target will already be a little puddle of nothing, have Dragonskin, or both. With that Skl you're also looking at 49 base crit, so they might also meet their end that way. Oh, and Counter was mentioned here: By the way, I don't mean to give the impression that I dislike Lethality, it's actually a really good skill and the only thing that kept me afloat in my no DLC Lunatic playthrough where I beat all the Risen. Having an OHKO move, even an unreliable one, is a pretty great thing when your strongest unit does less than 10 damage to the enemy GKs. It's just not good for any situation involving Apo, grinding or a desire to avoid hundreds of resets.

This. There shouldn't really be much of a question about it.

The best and only actually good way to learn how to do things that "make sense" in Lunatic is to, well, play Lunatic. But there are still a few general pointers to keep in mind: Don't overuse Fred. This should be obvious, but it bears repeating. A unit with a Fred support (especially a +Def Avatar) is just as tanky, if not more, than Frederick himself by the end of the Prologue. Don't use full deployment. There are a lot more enemies to go around in Lunatic, but there's just not enough exp to make that many units grow fast enough to keep up with the enemies and if you try anyway, you'll be in serious hurt when the promoted enemies start showing up. Don't go for Postgame on your first try. Postgame is what Normal/Hard are for (or Lunatic+ for real showoffs), but not Lunatic. No need to plan out your pairings for postgame optimization at all, in fact a lot of pairings that are really good ingame are pretty bad postgame (Fred x Sumia, Chrom x Sully). Similarly, don't go for a 3rd gen Morgan on your first try. 3rd gen has slightly higher caps, but tends to come with lower base stats, lower growth rates and later availability (Lucina!Morgan is the only really viable one, but she still requires a lot of forethought to get in a timely manner). Don't be afraid to restart. It's easy to do something you'll regret later such as money mismanagement or training the wrong units, and you'll both get back to where you were twice as fast on your second time around, and you'll be much stronger. OK, so as for the units you actually use, all the children is way too many, it's best to stick with 1~3 combat pairs maingame, possibly expanding to four with enough Veteran. Usually I use Chrom, Avatar-M, their wives and one other couple (6 units) until child recruitment time, then pair up the children mostly with siblings/parents, drop the second couple and sometimes Chrom's wife, and turn Avatar into a support unit. Strong candidates for Avatar's wife include Panne, Nowi and Cordelia. Class paths: skills take a backseat to combat practicality (though the best classes have both). The low availability of Seals earlygame will also be an influence. Avatar-M usually either goes Tactician(20) -> Mercenary(20) -> Hero (15) -> ending class (pass AT or Veteran to Morgans) or Tactician(20) -> Tactician(10~20) -> Grandmaster(15) -> ending class (pass Rally Spectrum to Morgans), Avatar-F can do either of those or go Tactician(20) -> Peg(20) -> Dark Flier(15) -> ending class (pass Galeforce to Morgans). Anything after your first promoted class will grow really slowly. Good ending classes include Paladin, Dark Knight, Hero and Grandmaster. Now, if you're using DLC to grind, all of that is irrelevant- Lunatic will be just like any other difficulty except slower once you clear Cht.4.

Told you so. People don't like Snipers because they can't get EP kills in the maingame, making it very hard to train then and giving them very little use outside of Lunatic+ (but their niche there is completely different). In Apo though they're one of the best classes. Hmm. Take her off the Throne and then get on with Helswath equipped, use the Throne bonus to survive EP and retaliate with one hit, then use Prescience on PP to make up for having gotten off the Throne to use a Brave? No, that honor goes to Taguel (assuming Villager doesn't count). GK and Griffon are also pretty bad, arguably worse since they don't have the cool pairup bonuses.

What if you used her Throne for +Avo instead of the stairs? Shorter kite, bigger boost. Nah might find use in Deliverer in her filler slot since her lead is stuck at 6 Mov. Physical x physical and magical x magical is the general rule, but magical dedicated leads can take a physically attacking hard support that doesn't boost Str with no penalties, and it's actually a good way to get around enemies with one defensive stat better than the other. Vaike!Nah and Chrom are the best at doing it.

5: Veteran 4: Vantage 3: All+2 2: Hit+20 1: DS+ That's funny. Nobody's mentioned any of mine yet. Veteran and DS+ are self-explanatory, one is the source fo Avatar's gamebreaking power and the other is the no-contest most potent skill in any sort of challenge run and is the only way for Morgan's mother to be better than her. Hit+20 is an excellent anti-RNG skill, Vantage makes it possible to sweep in Apo with proper setups and All+2 is the universal filler skill (LB is mandatory outside of challenge runs so it doesn't have this utility).

If you want to critstack, do it (on the lead unit). But keep the +Hit on support weapons.

Since Inigo is the Agg unit, you'd probably actually get higher mileage on a Pavise unit by hitting it's shield and letting Inigo have the Dual Strikes. BK can be good if you need 8 Mov Bows. But if you don't have a particular use for that niche, something else will likely perform better. Critstacking: ~35% isn't enough to rely on, but is enough to count as an asset. I mostly use it (well, +9 Crit forges, at least) on units with non-AT supports for the chance to shave off a few weapon uses. It can also be used as a sort of secondary proc. You can't get it to reliable levels without an extreme build that can't do much else and is helpless if the crit fails.

Bow Knight is pretty underwhelming on Inigo unless you have a specific goal that can only be filled by an 8 Mov Bow user- Hero would be better. I see you're fielding Sumia, but not Henry. Unless she's going Staff/Rally duty, that's not a good idea. DLC Palla also gets Rally Str at base. You might want to swap Palla over Katarina and make Katarina a Staffbot Shadowgift Valkyrie. Fred!Gerome is really bad but since you're benching him it's not a problem. Yarne will see a lot of extra support damage if you upgrade him to Berserker- you'll lose 75 Spd, but that doubles all of three enemies in the entire game. I personally put Bond on Olivia instead of Pass. Apo is just too open for Pass to come in handy on Support units. And finally, Staffbots- if you can use Spotpass/DLC units instead, do so. You can get +4 Mag mods on all of them as well as a full compliment of support skills.

Grima Beg pardon, but who are the Grimleal? Frederick Followers of the fell dragon, Grima.

Between Cynthia and Morgan/Lucina, why do you have magical Galeboys left? There should be an option that lets her have someone else... But yeah, Bride or Valkyrie. She could also potentially be a Hero. The lack of a +Str pairup hurts, but isn't too bad.

Really? That happens to me all the time... It's like, you shell out for a copy of a game and then you randomly get a second copy from somewhere else for free and don't know what to do with it. And even though it's a great game, you're not quite sure if it'll have that much replay value, right? Sure, you could go and complete the support log again, but that's only ~600 hours and you've got this feeling there could be some better way to use it for even more enjoyment! Such as giving it to a friend so they can buy the DLC too to support IS even more! Or posting about your lucky find (mistake? You need to be more optimistic) on forums like these to increase FE's popularity! You could also send IS a thank-you note, just in case they were the ones who sent you the free copy (as thanks for giving them your money the first time, no less!). It's not very likely, but the worst-case scenario is that you thank them for a job well done, and that's not a bad thing at all.

That... Is not a very good Asset/Flaw. Anyway she should be magical. Sorc is OP because Nosferatu restores half the damage dealt to your HP, but that doesn't work in Apo because enemy units actually have Res so you won't be getting a full heal from every other enemy you fight. Dragonskin also halves your healing, and Atk is so high that most things 2RKO you, which isn't reliably tankable. And without Braves, you'll have a pretty hard time getting kills, especially since Sorcs have bad Spd/Skl.

Those look pretty good, or at least the parents' pairings do. Classes are a little iffy, Sorcs and Manaketes are pretty bad for Apo. Lucina should probably be a Sage or Dark Flier, but her and Cynthia's skills are good. Lon'qu!Severa can either be a Swordfaire Hero or a Lancefaire Wyvern Lord. Kjelle can be a Paladin, Assassin, Bride, or Valkyrie (if you really want her magical). Noire can be a Sniper, Bride or Dark Flier. Nah should be a Hero or Wyvern Lord. Inigo can be a Hero, Paladin, Sniper or Assassin. Brady should be a Sage. Gerome and Yarne should be Berserkers. Laurent should be a Sage. Morgan depends on your Asset/Flaw and should run the same skills as Cynthia, possibly swapping Luna for Ignis and choosing the appropriate Faire. Inheritance: Priority for females to males is Galeforce > DS+ > doesn't matter. Priority for males to females is less straightforward, Axefaire is usually a good pass if you'll use it and Despoil if you won't. Gaius should pass Sol and Donnel should pass Underdog. Same gender inheritance doesn't matter. Pairing the children: just make sure each pair has at least one Galeforce unit and the support bonuses match up (you don't want a Berserker supporting a Sage because all that Str to go to waste) or at least don't conflict. Generally stick to physical x physical and magical x magical, but it's also OK to do things like support Hero x lead Sage because Hero doesn't give any Str boosts that would go to waste.

I haven't done anything really major that wasn't based on an early misunderstanding of game mechanics- accidental Chrom marriage to base Sully, poor Asset/Flaw, that sort of stuff. This is partially because I spend more time planning than actually playing the game (much more...).

No, I know how supports work, and that's what Paralogues 1-4 are for. They're also for getting Lucina on her feet though so they can't be overused (and for the record, I didn't recommend the cutoff point or even lots and lots of pairings, I just offered a suggestion as to what pairings could be used).

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=48207 It happened while you were gone. If you aren't aware of it, you should be. It could help with this. EP = Enemy Phase.

I think Olivia grinding is indeed the plan, although I may have understated the difficulty of giving Olivia entire chapters a bit. Lunatic can really bite you if you're unprepared or not familiar with the mode. And that's all pretty solid advice. From my experience though, the chapters between when Avatar gets going and promoted units start appearing are in a place where Avatar's defensive capabilities outpace enemy offense, so if one is patient and careful it should be possible to max out everyone's support in each map (then again, my patience is above average). Extra characters start really hurting around Cht.16/17, but by then the parents will be long gone and there'll just be a smaller number of children (although it could still be wise to drop Sully/Donnel so there's an even number of children).

Nah's usual fathers are Virion/Stahl/Vaike/Gregor/Henry. She usually gets benched if you aren't playing with all the children, and paired with a Galeboy if you are. Avatar!Nah works, but the Asset/Flaw options are a little tricky and it requires some maneuvering to keep Avatar from being benched.

Cordelia can double Cht.8's DMs at base without a pairup. She needs 24 atk to ORKO them (they have 36 HP and 6 Def), and has 9 base Str. A forged Javelin can reach 8 mt for 5250 G (with WRB), add a Str tonic and +5 from Vaike (he needs at least one Str level up over base for this, a C support will work too) and you get a perfect ORKO. Do note that despite doubling the DMs at base, you'll either need a Spd tonic or four Spd procs on Vaike to avoid being doubled by the Myrmidons. If you do use a Spd tonic, you can also ORKO Fighters that lack HP+5 with a +1 mt Killer Lance (from Donnel's Paralogue, +3 is needed to get HP+5 mooks) though barring a crit you'll eat a counterattack for it. If Cordelia manages to get a Str proc in Cht.7, you could go with Fred instead, but he falls off quickly in Lunatic and it would be better to use that proc to leave a point off the Javelin to conserve funds. It's also difficult to get her exp there due to the enemy composition (it's Chrom's turn to grind there). Masters also sometimes come from Merchants. If you were careful, you might be able to reach the thief without needing Pass, though you'd probably need both Galeforce and a 1-use weapon for him.