(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Makaze]

Just now, Sunwoo said:

???

Makaze, I really think you're tunneling on BBM for questionable reasons.

I don't get why his RVS vote on you is forced, and he voted for Prims after he returned to the thread a few pages later. It also doesn't help your case that you've been harping on BBM ever since his RVS vote ...

I am willing to table it for now. if I am right, it is for the wrong reasons, so I have no reason to keep pressuring.

You don't need to agree with me, but I'm confident that I'll be right about it in the end.

[Makaze]

Automated Votecount

Sunwoo (2): WeaponsofMassConstruction, Refa
Refa (2): Sunwoo, Bluedoom
Prims (2): Shinori, BBM
BBM (1): Rapier
Bluedoom (1): Makaze
Rapier (1): Snike
Shinori (1): Prims
Not voting (3): Iris, Fire Emblem Fan, CT075

[Sunwoo]

Uh, I'm pretty sure those votes are wrong Makaze.

Marth didn't move his vote between the last votal and this one.

[Makaze]

Automated Votecount

Sunwoo (3): WeaponsofMassConstruction (56), Refa (56), Bluedoom (60)
Prims (2): Shinori (120), BBM (28)
BBM (1): Rapier (92)
Bluedoom (1): Makaze (232)
Rapier (1): Snike (4)
Refa (1): Sunwoo (84)
Shinori (1): Prims (49)
Not voting (3): Iris (4), Fire Emblem Fan (8), CT075 (8)

And with that, I should stop spamming and go to bed

I will re-evaluate tomorrow and stop posting until people start to catch up to my postcount, or at least a third of it

[Snike]

The Hawk has been Rawked. Kinda irritated with the remix, but that's a discussion for non-mafia time.

I've been checking in on the thread every so often to the point that I've read the posts but I can't say I have them memorized, rereading as I'm writing this post.

Want to make a few points while I do that:

1. I don't believe I've had the pleasure of seeing a Makaze scum game, or if I have, I don't remember it. With that said I feel like this is within his town meta; quick snappy conclusions flowing into associative reads. Would not follow off a cliff, but definitely would not lynch. As a side note, ITP speculation might be privileged information speaking, but it's ultimately NAI. What I was more concerned about in the ruleset was the absence of an inspection accuracy rule, but again that's not worth discussing right now. I think your prims/weapons read is hasty at best.

2. I'm in the same boat with Rapier right now in terms of townreading them. At first, I was a little worried about what I was reading as self-consciousness in his thread entrance, but as he's progressed I've agreed more and more with him. I think his post early page 6 on Marth (bluedoom's) posting up to then is really on point.

3[.] people who have pinged me as 'off' right now are Weapons, Prims, and Marth. Let's start with the first two.

-I feel like typically Town!Weapons is one of those players who drops votes with a turn of phrase. Quippy, if you will. I really looked up to that when I would play with him early on. While vibes-based voting was an improvement, I'm not seeing a lot of that as much as I'm seeing explanations, so to speak. Explanations are not inherently bad, per se, but I'd attribute that more to his scum playstyle and I'm not impressed by the fence-sitting.

-I'm similarly not impressed with Prims' play so far. The Makaze read post on page 4 reads as waffling on it and I'm more used to Prims having stronger opinions than not. Outside of the Shinori gut read what is there? Neutral defensive on Weapons, neutral on Boron, Neutral Weird on Makaze attributed to playstyle differences. 

But the winner of the Vote Olympics goes to, perhaps unsurprisingly,

##Unvote

##Vote @Bluedoom

I'm absolutely not down with a reads list post in the first three hours of the game. That + I don't like the Refa vote: While I can agree that he's asking plenty of questions, it feels like he's trying to solve in this game rather than waffling ->confusion which I feel like would be more apt.

Also, you spoke of the forbidden game.

I recognize that it's been years since we've all played together. I recognize people's metas may and will have shifted in the interim, and I recognize that we're getting to know each other once again. I still believe these three slots are too in the middle of the road for my liking.

[Snike]

27 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Makaze is outed.

Saw this post as I was posting. What do you mean by this?

[Snike]

They/them* I'm blundering it's 4 am over here. I'm  sorry Refa

[Snike]

Going to bed, shame I couldn't get a back-and-forth before I went, will leave on 2 thoughts:

-Shinori could be open wolfing? I kind of doubt it but then again I was horribly wrong about Champs when spectating it. I want that explanation about 'outed' at this point. I don't think we elim here D1 over the other 3 slots.

- I would argue the chief difference between  Sunwoo/Boron, whichever is preferred, and Prims in this scenario is that the former is willing to go stake out stronger positions.  Stuff like this (mid page 6):

Quote

On Refa, I see him posting a lot but I can't actually remember anything he's said, which means he's not being memorable enough (how ironic). Marth doesn't impress me very much, I feel like his posts feel kinda safe. Weapons doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, and if he answered my last question towards him I didn't see it. Of the currently active players, I guess I'd feel the worst about these three.

is better than what I've seen from Prims IMO, even if you do hedge at points and I disagree with the Refa read. Part of it is being more engaged in the conversation but I saw that question earlier and wanted to answer it from my viewpoint.

Beyond that, I'll have to review tomorrow.

[charlie_]

Holy shit the text editor on this site is demonic.

Shinori's "eliminate 1 of 3" question to Makaze's really weird because Makaze already said they were townreading 2 people in the post, so I'm not sure what you expected from it?  It looks kinda performative, and in general they're kinda defensive about mentions on them when I don't think most people were looking at them? It's kinda weird.

Also a bit weirded out on Makaze's BBM progression. I can kinda get the starting point of "it's just vibes, reasons will probably come later" but it feels kinda convenient with the way they've handled it and I get a bit of whiplash on the first real reason they have for voting BBM being when they did the unvote. Do you have any thoughts about BBM's response to you on Page 9?

Marth's confusing because their Refa vote read as organic to me but then the switch off onto Boron on Page 7 is a bit weird because they were leaning town on them like, 2 pages earlier? It was a kind of hedged townread but I don't... really get what the vote was meant to be for except maybe the fencesitting point and lack of vote? This feels like a lot to turn the read around so fast. I don't think either of these are that telling either, they just read like Boron atm.

##Vote @Shinori

I don't vibe with the Prims scumreads btw. His early posting was solid and I don't think he draws attention to Shinori's "I'm killing Prims N1" post as maf when like half of the old SF games had people being paranoid that Prims was alive if he ever lived past midgame regardless of his alignment. It doesn't seem worth it if he's trying to play under the radar.

[j00]

10 pages guys wtf I'm gonna make some coffee and sit down and read the thread like a newspaper

[Shinori]

6 hours ago, Makaze said:

2 meanings: I am unable to read Weapons if my life depended on it, and I felt like his post came from a temperature read of the threads instead of a conviction from himself, so it feels flimsy.

Gun to your head, who would you eliminate first: BBM, Shinori, or Prims? Why?

Did literally zero people get the reason that I asked the "Gun to your head thing" was in reaction to this.

I even stated it later on when makaze asked me about this.

[charlie_]

2 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Did literally zero people get the reason that I asked the "Gun to your head thing" was in reaction to this.

I even stated it later on when makaze asked me about this.

Are you saying you just did it to say the gun to your head stuff is pointless, or?

[Bluedoom]

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

You better not become the next inebriated Shinori drunkplaying mafia

Not gonna lie, I am somewhat annoyed that after questioning my reads and getting replies, both Marth and Refa have acknowledged my response and asked me a few follow up questions, but continue to keep their vote on me without explaining why I am still scummy despite my explanation, and have both gone entirely offline.

It's one thing if they still think I'm scummy despite my explanations. But right now it feels more like they just conveniently disappeared so they can keep their votes on me without justifying why I'm still the scummiest person in the thread.

Sorry, I'm p busy because different time zone so have to dip out occasionally, but I'm mostly sticking with it for now because I didn't buy the argument for the whole me/refa being scum together. I know you said that its more that you found us individually scummy but I guess my perspective is...I'm literally pursuing a point of interest that you also share and you call my content safe, here I'm thinking the obvious thing to do is just vote/pressure refa and see where it goes? Like if I agree with someone I'd think to vote with them for the time being even if I take issues with them otherwise and at the time of that post you hadn't even dropped a vote.

 

 

 

[Shinori]

2 hours ago, Snike said:

Saw this post as I was posting. What do you mean by this?

I wanted to see if Makaze would react more or less.  I kind of have a slight feeling on my Makaze read and I wanted to see what he would do to me saying they were outed.

33 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

Holy shit the text editor on this site is demonic.

Shinori's "eliminate 1 of 3" question to Makaze's really weird because Makaze already said they were townreading 2 people in the post, so I'm not sure what you expected from it?  It looks kinda performative, and in general they're kinda defensive about mentions on them when I don't think most people were looking at them? It's kinda weird.

Also a bit weirded out on Makaze's BBM progression. I can kinda get the starting point of "it's just vibes, reasons will probably come later" but it feels kinda convenient with the way they've handled it and I get a bit of whiplash on the first real reason they have for voting BBM being when they did the unvote. Do you have any thoughts about BBM's response to you on Page 9?

Marth's confusing because their Refa vote read as organic to me but then the switch off onto Boron on Page 7 is a bit weird because they were leaning town on them like, 2 pages earlier? It was a kind of hedged townread but I don't... really get what the vote was meant to be for except maybe the fencesitting point and lack of vote? This feels like a lot to turn the read around so fast. I don't think either of these are that telling either, they just read like Boron atm.

##Vote @Shinori

I don't vibe with the Prims scumreads btw. His early posting was solid and I don't think he draws attention to Shinori's "I'm killing Prims N1" post as maf when like half of the old SF games had people being paranoid that Prims was alive if he ever lived past midgame regardless of his alignment. It doesn't seem worth it if he's trying to play under the radar.

Let's break part of this down:

First paragraph - The eliminate 1 of 3 question was a straight jab at the fact that makaze had done the same already and I think it's ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS at this point in the game(literally like 2-3 hours into the game).  This is kind of the reason I picked THEIR TWO TOWN READS and one other random person.  I also am just not a fan of stating town cores so early as 2-3 hours into the game because I don't think that's great play, but hey, prove me wrong.  It's not looking performative it's the fact that the entire fiasco and situation is pointless and that was to drive a point home.  I commented on this later in a post when Makaze themself asked me about why I picked Prims. 

There is no defensiveness here either, if people are reading me as defensive that's just wack.  I can state things are interesting to me, this doesn't mean that they are bad or that I'm worried about them.  I'm not.  There is ZERO case against me and the only person that was voting me was Prims and it was based on random RVS reaching and then they peaced out and I'm still waiting for that return like I'm waiting for the next season of No game no life(It's never happening).  How can one 'be defensive' when there is nothing to defend against or towards exactly.  If there is no case, if there is nothing pushing me and the only thing being said is "I kind of have no reason Shinori" or "Shinori is kind of null to me" or "I can't really read shinori" What is there to be defensive towards.  This is just weak piggy back arguments based on what some people have stated in the thread that already doesn't make sense and this just expands upon that.

Straight from attacking me to, kind of questioning makaze but it's all friendly here, is really interesting to me because THIS is what seems performative if we are talking about performative.  "Let me mention something about Makaze here but the reasoning is based on just guts/vibes/tones and how they reacted to those said guts/vibes/tones.  Do you have other thoughts on Makaze by any chance or is the makaze/bbm interaction the only thing that catches your eye?  I would assume not since you've read me and I've had a few interactions with them myself.

Attacking marth for swapping votes from one person to a person they were 'town reading' via like page 5 is TERRIBLE.  It's not even been like 10 hours or so by this point in time of the game, possibly not even 5 I don't know I didn't check time stamps.  Swapping a town read to a vote target is perfectly within range and reason at this point in time in the game and trying to attack someone for this I THINK is really bad.  Especially since it just leads to a seemingly "null" read afterwards because it isn't very "telling either way".

A swing and a miss baby, I'm not going down like that hit me again, I can take it. I'm a little insane if you catch my drift.

"I don't vibe with the prims scum reads" Why? Early posting was solid, no early posting was just commenting largely on RVS stuff and didn't really give much volume or definition following it.  Also this reasoning that I've bolded, which is like the whole paragraph on prims, is also just like WIFOM and random "What if" situation and terrible.  What active scum-hunting has prims done? After he made his RVS vote and peaced out they even came back real brief like to make sure and comment on the bot situation or something, so they were actively here but, as they stated themselves, were just lurking.  Even when prodded with questions from multiple people which I think is suspect to being questioned.

This reads like a very classic chainsaw defense considering I recently moved my vote towards Prims in an actual serious manner, the funny part is that I didn't state why I voted prims but SB didn't state anything about that, there was no concern on why I moved my vote which is also interesting if they are scum reading me AND town reading Prims.

It's okay to admit your wrong though, you can move your vote off of me, it's fine.  I'll allow it.

[Shinori]

A reminder because I know the above post could come off sounding potentially bad, please do not take my posts seriously, nothing is mean to anger or anything and I say most of this with a joking manner in mind.  It's all friendly here and I'm not trying to brow beat anyone here.

Largely because I do not know what the cut-off line is but I was largely typing and not like THINKING of how my typing sounds.

[Bluedoom]

2 hours ago, Snike said:

##Vote @Bluedoom

I'm absolutely not down with a reads list post in the first three hours of the game. That + I don't like the Refa vote: While I can agree that he's asking plenty of questions, it feels like he's trying to solve in this game rather than waffling ->confusion which I feel like would be more apt.

Also, you spoke of the forbidden game.
 

What's wrong with a reads list 5 pages into the game? Do you think there's enough content at that point to write big cases? Or are you saying its too much? The alternative there would be to just...not post.

 

I didn't get the feeling that he's being solvey tbh; Yeah he states his reads and opinions but only when asked, and that's called being reactive not proactive. You could disagree with me on whether that comes from town or scum but, I wouldn't call that game solvey.

[charlie_]

44 minutes ago, Shinori said:

(A lot of words)

why do i have to wallpost already sob

I'm willing to say "sure" on the pick 3 post as for why you asked it but I don't think asking questions etc is pointless if it can go somewhere. (I think Makaze has at least been going places with their posts even if I'm iffy on parts of them.) The defensiveness comment is not related to that post, it's this and the post immediately after it being a weird string of posts when tbh you hadn't pinged me at all before that page. 

It reads defensive to me because well... all the stuff you just pointed out in that post are like small things that basically didn't register to me at all. I guess you could say its self-conscious over defensive but that's basically interchangeable with me. I'm interested in what your reads actually are wrt this post because I don't really see what's worth holding back atm. 

I found you scummier than Makaze so I worded stuff differently with them, idk what there is to say about that. Wrt my Makaze read, I think the BBM switchoff is iffy, but if they were town and scumreading BBM I can see why they'd post the way they did? But nothing has really indicated they are town yet and it could be like what you did in champs where you picked a read to hard commit to early and just rolled with it. It feels like a kinda convenient stance for maf which is why I'm looking at it.

I don't think Marth is weird just for the change, I just don't think the reasons for the change are super solid. I'm not too bothered with them because I thought their early posting was good but I'm kinda ??? on where I put them rn in a way that is distinct from nullreads.

Wrt Prims I just read them and don't agree with them. Not having produced serious content by Page 5 doesn't feel like a crime to me + I have my own contrary read on them. Idt it's hard worth fighting literally every small thing you disagree with for the sake of keeping the thread readable.

[charlie_]

3 hours ago, Snike said:

-I feel like typically Town!Weapons is one of those players who drops votes with a turn of phrase. Quippy, if you will. I really looked up to that when I would play with him early on. While vibes-based voting was an improvement, I'm not seeing a lot of that as much as I'm seeing explanations, so to speak. Explanations are not inherently bad, per se, but I'd attribute that more to his scum playstyle and I'm not impressed by the fence-sitting.

What part of the game did you not think he was playing like town!Weapons? I tend to passively townread Weapons but I'm kind of lost on if this is just a hard meta read aside from the last part. And what's bad about their undecided reads to you atm?

[Shinori]

12 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

Wrt Prims I just read them and don't agree with them. Not having produced serious content by Page 5 doesn't feel like a crime to me + I have my own contrary read on them. Idt it's hard worth fighting literally every small thing you disagree with for the sake of keeping the thread readable.

I am fine with most of your post except this part, because like, "Not having produced serious content by page 5 doesn't feel like a crime to me" yet you kind of attacked Marth for swapping off of a read around, by your own words, about page 5. This seems kind of inconsistent or hypocritical, but I don't think it's particularly anything massive to delve into at the moment.

I still want Prims to post and respond to my fairly small post towards them a couple pages back.

More with regards to prims, he didn't have to have 'serious content' but I do felt that he had some reads or thoughts/opinions that seemed to be implied towards other people but felt a VERY reaching RVS vote was more important to just vanish on is kind of telling I think.

[Prims]

Gonna Get This Post Out Here before bed,
re: BBM Post 1 (and @Shinori by consequence): At the time I found Shinori more suspicious than Makaze, so naturally I would want to keep voting Shinori. I was also curious how Shinori would handle my vote since even though it wasn't super strong it was a serious vote, and I got the vibe he was trying to wait it out without responding directly which I didn't feel great about. I would say though that now that there's more to read him on, nothing of his more recent content really bugs me enough for me to consider him a priority (at worst I feel like he's not really doing that much), but it was what I felt the strongest about at the time I left the thread. I also didn't really feel much of a need to press Makaze early on because he somebody who is automatically talking nonstop by default and I didn't actually feel that badly about him.
re: BBM Post 2: Scum still doesn't want the townie who gets shot to draw attention to them while alive! I think this makes sense.

THAT SAID I have not liked Makaze's more recent posts. "automatically talking nonstop by default" is starting to bubble over into active lurking territory for me. bravado around BBM off an ED1 gut read and "X and Y are unaligned" is nonsensical this early to the point it comes off as trying to establish himself as a Guy Who Is Looking Into Stuff without actually approaching the game in a productive or inquisitive manner. Like, okay, you claim to be trying to get your thoughts out and solve the game out loud, but why is it presented with a high manner of confidence for reads that you don't even treat as warranting of explanation? Combined with general lack of pursuit of anything it starts to look like a replacement for scumhunting instead of something you're doing alongside it. I disagree with BBM here that scum!Makaze would be boxing himself in with the one-liners - general scum play is to just go "guess I was wrong lol" if your old reads don't benefit you anymore (because townies also change their mind, this is actually extremely easy to get away with later in the game as the townies who are more likely to needle you over it get killed off).

One thing I find really weird and tbh is what initially changed my read on him is that what pings Makaze the most about people (me, BBM) is... when they're not scumreading him?? This is such an unintuive way for town, who knows they are town, to scumhunt, especially when both BBM and I had made posts indicating we WERE trying to read your alignment and were still trying to make heads or tails of you but weren't suspicious yet. It's not the same as if BBM and I had forced-looking townreads or something. I can't help but read some bizarre self-consciousness here because I think town's natural takeaway is "well obviously people aren't scumreading me, I'm town posting like a townie" whereas scum is more naturally concerned about how people perceive them.

##Unvote
##Vote: @Snike

This is more immediately pressing, though. The way Snike handles his suspicions on the return post he just made doesn't settle right with me:
- Of his three targets, he's going for the guy who seems like the target least likely to result in backlash given Weapons and I are known to be capricious at times.
- Of his three targets, he's going for the guy who is the one where I can least tell why he thinks the posts are coming from a scum PoV. Snike, is there a conclusion I'm just not reading between the lines to see regarding the Bluedoom case? Like yeah you don't like the Refa vote, but why do you think Bluedoom is scummy as opposed to just not seeing eye-to-eye with you? There was also another vote on Refa (from Boron, who also made a reads post) and a vote switch from Bluedoom moving to Boron, which you didn't mention even though I would think these are contextually relevant to your vote, especially with Boron as the most recent wagon at the time. You contrast Boron with me later but her overall positions in this game have been closer to the guy you're voting, I think. Your post also makes it a little ambiguous whether you were fully caught up or not; had you read the most recent pages as of your post?

While IMO there is a chance Makaze is just continuing to be Weird because he is a Weird player, Snike's post pings me as a very safe thread entrance with a vote that doesn't read as fully explained, so I want to pursue this right now.

I was kind of like... huh on this Boron post from a Mafia 101 perspective because it doesn't actually go into specifics about any of her scumreads' actions or why she feels how she feels, and is generally indecisive. But then I think her posts since then have been OK though and basically give the explanation I would expect from a townie who wrote that post. Basically, an understandable wagon but I don't feel passionate about it myself at all. ftr @ Boron the obvious explanation for scum!Makaze posting things that don't necessarily benefit scum is that he wants to be around and fake content to look townie and those things come out while he's posting.

Personally I myself don't really have any issues with Refa or Bluedoom at this point. Refa has generally come off as townie motivated since my question to them, and idk Marth's thread entrance was to say he was having trouble getting a feel for the game and then he wrote a post that seemed consistent with that, which makes sense? I haven't really had any issues with his lines of inquiry in his following posts even though I don't necessarily agree with the conclusions.

1 hour ago, charlie_ said:

Holy shit the text editor on this site is demonic.

I really wanted to immediately vote eclipse for being a member of the moderating class but then she didn't join the game. She could have told the admins to stop this probably

[Prims]

Okay apparently I forgot how to write reasonably sized posts on Day 1. sorry

[Percivalé]

1 hour ago, j00 said:

10 pages guys wtf I'm gonna make some coffee and sit down and read the thread like a newspaper

in the same boat lol I fell asleep as soon as I got home from the con and tomorrow is booked full too. I have to sleep again soon but I'll read a bit now and catch up to the rest when I get home tomorrow 

[BBM]

Can we please stop doing this thing where if someone leaves the thread for a few hours people start getting mad about it? This is specifically directed at Boron for being snippy that people voted her and left, but people were doing that about me earlier too. I know it's frustrating to not get to defend yourself or pursue your scumread more right away,  but we all have more stuff to do now than 5 years ago. So this is a warning that I won't be back after this for a few hours

Prims' post is fine I guess. I feel like we've had this argument before about how easy/hard it is for scum to change their minds later but idk I think it's hard to do in a way that seems natural so I don't agree with that part of it. I do agree about the part about it being weird that Makaze finds it scummier that we don't scumread him back though. I'm just not quite feeling Makaze yet though.

However @Makaze we're literally like 12 hours into the game. Why did you see it necessary to vote Marth to "consolidate"? I get the part about not wanting to vote me for now, but after all your posts to that point, voting Marth there sucked. Consolidating on pure RVS wagons is one thing but I think once wagons become real, doing it for the sake of it sucks. Not all townies are cool under pressure and just piling on votes is more likely to lead to confirmation bias where they start acting more erratic under the pressure and then you feel more confident about it

Snike vote is good. I really don't understand why people find Marth to be scummy. I'm not town reading him or anything but it's just whatever to me. Out of all the Marth votes, Snike's is by far the worst. In addition to what Prims said about Snike picking the easiest target, yes making a full reads post this early is useless, but Marth was hardly the only one doing it. Almost everyone in the thread at that point was giving a bunch of "leaning X" posts off small vibes. Also he's scummier for not being waffly and for trying to solve the game? How does that make any sense?

##Unvote, ##vote: @Snike

 

[BBM]

Some other quick stray thoughts: 

I didn't say this explicitly earlier but the thing that pinged me most early other than Prims was weapons, because I felt his initial reason for voting prims was good and then he backed off it super fast. It gave me vibes of scum distancing themselves early without actually committing to a push. That being said prims has allayed my suspicions, so I don't know if this is alignment indicative if prims is town. Still haven't cared much for his posts though. I would have liked to see him come back to respond to my question before I dropped the prims vote, alas

Didn't like Cam's first post. Felt like a lot of commentary without opinions and no vote. He was drunk so I'll give him a pass for now though I'm not sure if he's legal age to drink...

[Shinori]

Yeh, I like bbm.  BBM is nice.

Marth is also nice.

Rapier is chill.

Prims post made me feel better about them but I'm iffy on them.

I'm waffling on makaze, but I think I feel better about them than most other people.

SB can go.

Weapons can go

Everyone else is either under haven't read or hasn't posted enough to matter.

##Vote: @WeaponsofMassConstruction