(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins!

[Percivalé]

hello everybody and welcome to "stoner attempts to play mafia after at least 6 years of not engaging with it at all" I am your host percy p. percival Today i will attempt to read the thread in an hour (started writing this right at 4:20 coincidentally)
I'm gonna try to not read too much off meta because I don't really remember anybody's meta and don't expect it to be reliable in this game BUT not everyone's been inactive for six years like me I'm not gonna fault anybody else for reading off meta

rapier is scum for not knowing what TTYD stands for (joke)

early vibecheck has weapons and refa pegged as scum
weapons read on prims is weird ("I think all of these players are town for this reason but prims is scum for basically the same reason I read all these players as town") and refa's been generally under the radar. if prims is town weapons may be more likely to be scum

a voice in my head is tumbling around this philosophy I've hadfor a while which is that it's usually more likely that people who assert earlygame that they are town to be town. for psychological reasons I suppose (I'm town btw) which has me gut read rapier as town
but (off my assumption it's not based on any real evidence) I've always read prims as somebody who is aware of this kind of thing
in my experience at least it's hard to say straightforward that I'm town in thread when I'm scum because I have a hard time lying and compulsively avoid doing it where I can... so this means I'll say "I'm not scum" which is an indirect way of saying I'm town / "I'm not mafia" when I'm 3p lol and I'll physically FEEL that aversion to being direct when I'm not the alignment I wanna say I am... this is an early tangent read so not reliable but this makes me gutread prims as scum for being especially brazen about it cuz Though I'm aware it's earlygame jokes (literally first two pages) and lol this is kind of a metaread after I said I would try not to do that, it seems like something scum!prims would do

makaze's strategy of stating every single gutread feels like town but his first read being SK is something that often comes impulsively from scum. he's been playing mafia recently though (AFAIA correct me if I'm wrong) which makes me think he'd be self-aware about that, plus exaggerated D1 eagerness as SK is something I'm familiar with so his reason for reading rapier SK imo checks out. keeping it in mind though 

if weapons is town he's a very easy early vote for scum, so put a pin on this for when we have flips later

another thing my head wants to pin for later is this statement from makaze

Quote

I'm assuming this was at me, and I'm inclined to think Rapier's case is not BS, but he should know me better from his last game with me, even if it has been... however many years

because it makes me think that if makaze is town rapier could be scum but it's more likely to be town/town than scum/scum
I don't usually like "you should know my meta"-type comments but i'm still leaning town on makaze

"I like prim's response to me but idk where to put my vote now" from weapons is ehh especially because he doesn't take his vote off

bluedoom first post is meh

it's 5:30 and I need to sleep RN sorry for the long post I'm just having fun tbh. didn't expect to have this much fun but being in a better mental place makes this so much more fun to play. I'm not entirely caught up with the thread, I'm about at page 6 currently--meaning I've missed 4-5 pages of context so please give me a minute to catch up with those tomorrow BUT I was gonna vote weapons, then I checked the most recent votals and saw there were no votes for him, so I'm assuming something happened to make people change their minds on him (cuz I did see a few votes earlier and now see that there are none) so UNTIL I catch up with the thread I'm going to suspend my weapons read and ##Vote: @Bluedoom because that kind of first post at a point in the game where people are voting off more than vibes is a bad look

[charlie_]

Whyyyy does SF's auto-save post thing only save like half the post when you go to a new page

[Percivalé]

sorry I forgot to add this to my original post but after I read further in prims feels less like scum to me and more like just town that hasn't played in a while

[j00]

I'm putting together a bigger post right now, but @Shinori you say you're good with BBM and Prims looks better from his more recent posts, but you don't mention Snike in your one-liner read list despite both BBM and Prims voting him.

If their votes on Snike makes you feel better about them, why don't you have any thoughts on Snike?

[charlie_]

 

1 hour ago, Shinori said:

I am fine with most of your post except this part, because like, "Not having produced serious content by page 5 doesn't feel like a crime to me" yet you kind of attacked Marth for swapping off of a read around, by your own words, about page 5. This seems kind of inconsistent or hypocritical, but I don't think it's particularly anything massive to delve into at the moment.

I still want Prims to post and respond to my fairly small post towards them a couple pages back.

More with regards to prims, he didn't have to have 'serious content' but I do felt that he had some reads or thoughts/opinions that seemed to be implied towards other people but felt a VERY reaching RVS vote was more important to just vanish on is kind of telling I think.

I'm not sure what's weird about that. If someone already has a read and it changes I think it's more notable than if someone doesn't have a read and then forms one, at least during the earlygame where wagons aren't really pressuring a lynch.

Why are you voting Weapons now? Is it going back to your page 4 reasoning?

@BBM Can you clarify what exactly your stance on Makaze is? I can't really tell from the last post if they're just confusing or actually suspicious to you.

I don't scumread Weapons ftr. The Prims vote made sense to me even if I don't agree with it. (I think there is a pretty important distinction between "making stuff happen" and "look at me I'm contributing", the intent is clear from the phrasing imo). The way they responded to being pressed also didn't really bother me.

[Shinori]

2 minutes ago, j00 said:

If their votes on Snike makes you feel better about them, why don't you have any thoughts on Snike?

Oh yeh I forgot about them.  I'm kind of null on them.  If I had any grievances it would be that their entry into the thread gave me the heebie jeebies and gave me a flashback of EO3.  But that was like 6 years ago and I think it was just a like random PTSD thing about seeing snike in a mafia game so I'm not trying to bite into that too much at the moment.

[Shinori]

13 minutes ago, charlie_ said:

Why are you voting Weapons now? Is it going back to your page 4 reasoning?

For reasons, partially related to some of my feelings about them from earlier in the game, partially because I agree with what BBM said.  Also I'd love to see an accurate votals maybe I'll go check that thing.

[Shinori]

5 hours ago, Makaze said:

Sunwoo (3): WeaponsofMassConstruction (56), Refa (56), Bluedoom (60)

There's a thing I've seen and heard of, which has sometimes proven to be true, that the first wagon to 3 votes(idk if boron's wagon is the first wagon to get to 3 or not) that either the wagonee or the third voter is scum.

I don't particularly believe this but supposedly there are some statistics to support it somewhere.  And it was true in my last game played.  Funny enough bluedoom is currently getting counter wagon'd by some people in response.

I was originally gonna bring this up WRT Snike wagon but saw that boron got to 3 votes on the previous votals.

[Bluedoom]

I'm personally fine with snike votes but I want to know why he thinks refa is town who is solving because I didn't get the sense of that at all. Because right now it feels like he's scumreading me for...doing something when I shouldn't have done anything?

Cam's entrance I could see as bad but he also prefaced it as not complete and I want to reserve judgement for when he's able to read the thread fully and collect his thoughts.

[Bluedoom]

8 minutes ago, Shinori said:

There's a thing I've seen and heard of, which has sometimes proven to be true, that the first wagon to 3 votes(idk if boron's wagon is the first wagon to get to 3 or not) that either the wagonee or the third voter is scum.

I don't particularly believe this but supposedly there are some statistics to support it somewhere.  And it was true in my last game played.  Funny enough bluedoom is currently getting counter wagon'd by some people in response.

I was originally gonna bring this up WRT Snike wagon but saw that boron got to 3 votes on the previous votals.

The thing is in this context I'm not being voted for voting Boron. Most of the scumeads on me are actually because I voted refa and/or made a list post on page 5, which is what is confusing me, you'd think that the main point for voting me would be off of my boron vote instead and not...whatever gut reads list post that I made in RVS.

[Shinori]

Oh I know you aren't being voted for voting boron, it's just an interesting bit of information I learned recently.

[Percivalé]

I just showered and did my T and decided to check the thread one more time before bed
to make it clear I have read up to halfway page 5 and all of page 11 and wanted to elaborate on something rq

there is a "bluedoom vibes post" I see people referring to that I have not read yet, I'm referring specifically to his very first post which is this:

Quote

Heya, I'm on. I've been reading the last four pages and I'm struggling to come up with reads right now, mostly because I keep seeing a lot of the arguments for why what someone does is NAI and keep telling myself that in my head. 

it gives off "noncommittal scum/scum that's trying to be careful but still saying something earlygame to have a presence" energy and that is the reason for my vote, I have not read much past that post 

going to bed for real will update tomorrow evening GN gamerz

[j00]

7 hours ago, BBM said:

all our mafia skills have degraded so much in the last few years that rapier is now the strongest player.

Yeah kinda what I'm feeling rn.

Prims feels very cautious compared to what I remember from a decade back, but blah blah we're all old now meta has changed etc. In the end his and BBMs exchange feels fine. BBM going from voting Prims to sheeping the Snike vote feels to bold for scum to do this early, and I do agree on a lot about Snike. 
Marth does feels like an easy target. His list port feels low effort but a game with this amount of players feels overwhelming pretty quickly. I've been parsing the thread for hours, and for anyone who hasn't played in a while (basically all of us) it feels like an overwhelming amount of players to keep track of. Many were doing similar posts with posting vibes and gut reads.
Snike himself posts a long list read and ends it with a vote on Marth that doesn't feel more justified than Weapons or Prims which he also mentioned as scum reads? Like, he even even elaborates in a follow up post on why Prims looks worse than Boron but there's not much elaboration for his vote on Marth.

I think Refa have been pretty forgettable. They ask a lot of quesions and answers questions directed at them, but I have trouble keeping track of their reads other than sheeping a vote on Boron. They have a decent amount of posts but are being very vague on opinions and reasoning. 

I'd like to hear more from Weapons, I think his early stuff is kinda fine? He and Marth give sorta the same vibes in that their posts aren't very strong but they don't feel calculated in a scum way either. It makes them both feel like easy targets but I don't have strong opinions on them either. They're not wagons I'm willing to jump on currently though. 

Also lastly I'm just gonna say that I have never understood Makaze's train of thought and probably never will. He posts reads like "I am incredibly confident X is town/scum based on nothing but my gut instinct, player pairs Y/Z and A/B are unaligned btw" and I am instantly lost. 
Gut reads without logical reasoning is anathema to my style which has led to me pointlessly tunneling Makaze in the past. I find these kinds of reads hard to argue with or against due to the emphasis on gut reads over any form of discernable logic. I think a lot of his reads make little sense but all the random confident hot takes makes little sense as scum either.
Anyway I can't be bothered to spend effort on figuring out his alignment this phase so I'll reread seriously him once there's any associate reads to base it off on.

Currently I think Refa > Snike so

##Vote: @Refa

 

[j00]

also JUST TO BE SURE, there's no mention of "no Jester" in the rules, but Jester is considered bastard right??

[charlie_]

5 minutes ago, j00 said:

also JUST TO BE SURE, there's no mention of "no Jester" in the rules, but Jester is considered bastard right??

Don't worry, I'm the only clown this game needs.

[Rapier]

9 hours ago, Shinori said:

Alignment reads are bad at this point in time, at least in my opinion.  Scum is LESS likely to go against each other at this point in time in the game but that's not guaranteed.

Unless you're Paperblade. In that case, any buddying on thread means he's about to drop 2/3rds of his teammates for a lategame win (or almost victory).

@Bluedoom what's the difference between what Refa has been doing and what Boron has been doing? Is the latter worse for being uncommital on RVS, "fence sitting" or something else?

9 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Thanks, SF, I totally want you to lose my post when you kick me into the next page and to give me the previous post I'd already posted ... Good thing I didn't write that much yet.

Also, just an observation here but I don't like how Refa and Marth were so quick to jump on me after Weapons' post. While I may disagree with his reasoning and reads, Weapons did give a justification for it. Refa jumped on it with barely an explanation and no real indicator as to how he felt about me before, while Marth's vote is sus because his last reads posts had me as a town-lean. I struggle to understand how a single post suddenly makes me the scummiest person in the thread, unless it's because the post in question had him as a suspicion and a wagon is conveniently starting to pop up on me.

Next time, press ctrl + Z when you're with the reply box open. It sometimes reverts to what you had written (though iirc it's not guaranteed, which is why I need to get back to manually copying my post's contents already)

I agree about the observation on Refa. Marth's made sense, but could go both ways since it's also a convenient vote and I still don't see why Sunwoo is worse than Refa, since the reasoning against both seem roughly the same. This is doubly weird to me because Marth was "axe first, ask questions latter" about Refa, but then flipped this stance and started pressing his next read almost instantly after Refa brought up Sunwoo.

9 hours ago, Makaze said:

unaligned means not knowingly aligned, so scum/scum

I've read it before as "I don't think both of those players are scum/scum", so unless my english skills are back at being terrible I'll go with this.

Also, fixing my vote.

##Vote @Bluedoom

9 hours ago, BBM said:

all our mafia skills have degraded so much in the last few years that rapier is now the strongest player.

makaze is word spewing all over the place which makes him tiresome to read. @Makaze from what I've seen your read on rapier has flipped from scum to town to maybe back to scum at some point in the middle to back to town? can you explain the reasons behind your read progression here?

lmao

I agree that Makaze seems to be throwing unconclusive speculation everywhere and this feels more like a bloat than contributions to the discussion, but at the same time I'm not sure whether there's inherently scum intent on this, although imo it benefits scum slightly more than town.

I like BBM's content so far because while they're few, he seems to be going for more reactions from his reads and I agree with the reasoning for pushing them (despite me finding Prims town due to RVS stuff, which is weak reason to find someone town but still) and that has nothing to do with him saying I'm mafia's strongest player

 

9 hours ago, Makaze said:

My opinion on Rapier is that they have very weird posting style, but their actual content shows progression and some of it reads from a town POV, so I am ignoring my tonal instincts and basing it on their reasoning. Rapier is v.

What's weird about the posting style? I mean, beside the broken english lol

[Bluedoom]

I just want to point out about Makaze because I'm reading posts about his whole associatives before flips thing:

I think I can agree that voting me to consolidate out of RVS is bad and can be construed as voteparking until something better comes up, sure. But I think his rapid fire posts on his gut reads, the whole pairing people with alignments, I think that's typical for certain players from MU and would be in line with what I'd expect him to do regardless of alignment. But the main thing for me is he hasn't attempted to convince anyone of his viewpoint, I don't seem him aggressively trying to do so either. I feel like that he'd try to do that as scum a lot more, but I'm also going this off of that SF revival that we played at MU about 3-4 years ago. He does seem different from that game imo.

[Shinori]

20 minutes ago, j00 said:

player pairs Y/Z and A/B are unaligned btw" and I am instantly lost. 

Player pairings is a thought process that some communities use and can work out VERY well when used well.  These are generally based on interactions with each other in thread.  An example would basically be two people who are hard headbutting each other and pushing each other to the extent that mafia buddies 90% of the time wouldn't do.

One of the examples that Makaze for example used was that Myself and rapier are not aligned, and this was based off of our interactions with each other.

NORMALLY these are more saying "These two people aren't wolves" together but makaze's wording is that we aren't aligned which is slightly different.  I WANT TO ASSUME they are still going by the base thought process in their 'pairings' that X/X aren't wolf/wolf together.  So the best way to look at Makaze's pairing post is that makaze is saying each of those people individually are not paired with the other person as a wolf/wolf combo.

[j00]

Just now, Shinori said:

Player pairings is a thought process that some communities use and can work out VERY well when used well.

No I get that, what I don't get are listing a bunch of player pairings and saying you're confident about them EARLY DAY 1 with no empirical associate reads whatsoever. You yourself during the recent Chumps game is about the best example of how D1 interactions can be truly whatever in terms of buddying and bussing. Posting these kind of paired reads now based on ????? gives me nothing.

[Snike]

Good morning I'm awake despite my fervent desire to stay in bed. Going to get up and ready shortly as well as deal with the Prims/BBM walls and their push to grant me a much-needed vacation (I appreciate that concern).

J00, we don't share the idea of list reads. A list read could/would be me taking people in the game and sorting them into broad buckets. Kinda like what Marth did in the middle of Page 5 after the admitted struggle to make reads. Could've just said Maf/wolves are offline like Boron did, but the way it was done instead strikes me as generating content for the sake of it rather than genuinely being at a loss, and again especially troublesome to me given this was in the first 6 hours of play. Wouldn't it be better to just have conversations at that point?

Conversely I come in, make specific arguments for my positions against the grain of the thread (Prims is the take I'm citing here), drop a vote, go to bed. The case can be made that I popped into thread when everyone left but that's not list posting. I didn't cover shinori in my first post nor did I really touch on BBM and any wagon there. Similarly I don't think I remarked on Boron until I went to bed, even though I disagree with the 2010-2011 Prims take. If what I did was supposed to be a list post it's a poor one is the point I'm trying to make.

This was supposed to be a shorter post at some point lmao. Going to be back in a bit, the steel rainmaker beckons.

[charlie_]

You've been corrupted by offsite games, haven't you Shinori? sob

I would like to see updated thoughts on BBM from Makaze when they catch up.

[Rapier]

8 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Also, in the hypothetical case that you and Refa are both scum, I wouldn't even say that your vote on Refa has to be a bus. In the scenario where both of you are scum, it could just be scum buddies pressuring one another to create distance without actual intent to have your buddy be the end-of-the-day lynch.

I think this makes sense, on hindsight, for my question about why Marth didn't vote Refa, but chose to vote Sunwoo slightly after Refa did for roughly the same reasons (at least that's how I understood them, so please clarify if I'm misrepreseting anyone).

I'm fine with my vote on Marth and so far I'm ok with this being my D1 lynch choice, also because it'd tell us a little about his alignment with Refa and Sunwoo.

Makaze's reads and votes have been weirding me off for a few pages in such a nonsensical way that I can't even be sure if it's being done because of scum intent or confused town. The way he jumps around due to vague vibes and alignment speculation on RVS/early D1 throws me off a bit. I think this is getting my memories from past games back, where I slightly remember him doing that even as town, but it's too soon to tell. I'd be less ok with lynching him but still go for Bluedoom > Makaze if D1 were to end today.

@Makaze what gives Marth and BBM as being a scum team? I think it's possible with Marth & Refa but I haven't seen any meaningful interactions between Marth & BBM to get that, so I'm confused.

8 hours ago, CT075 said:

I think we'd all benefit from Makaze articulating a little more. Shit like "BBM gives scum vibes" -- in what way? Is this a gut feeling? Is it because of his wording? Refa/Boron aren't aligned, because... vibes? Setting aside whether this is scum (see next paragraph), this is just unhelpful; am I just supposed to hear the words "scum vibes" and immediately think "oh yeah, BBM does have scum vibes! I'm voting now!" (addendum: has it been too long to make a "BBM always has scum vibes" joke? was BBM a person people said this about?)

Gun to my head, I would say that making these kinds of no-details posts are cheap and easy to fake "contribution" (whatever that means), which is more indicative of scum intent than not, but I also hold the opinion that bad town play often overlaps with scum play on paper, especially in these early stages, and Makaze isn't even the only person guilty of this ("vibes first reasoning later" indeed).

On the flip side, I really like this Marth vote by Rapier; it would have been easy to park a vote on BBM and make noncommittal comments on the rest of the game state but the logic is relatively specific (nitpicky, would like more detail on what specific opinions Marth has that are contradictory, but also maybe they were just said earlier and I'm not remembering).

I agree with Cam on this, although at this point I don't think we're getting much from pressing Makaze. He already said he goes by his gut regardless and that seems to be all we're getting.

Also I thought Marth's opinions were either vague or contradictory due to the way he said Sunwoo could be town because she outed someone buddying, but also scum because scum can do that. Then that Prims could be town for rightfully pointing out that it's not productive to speculate about SK as early as page 2-3, but that he used too many words so it could be a scum tell from Prims.

As I said before, it was page 6-7 so our reads really aren't well consolidated, so it's acceptable for them to be somewhat vague or even contradictory. It was his lack of pressure for Refa (vote without asking questions or pressing the specific reasons he found him scummy) that bothered me, especially when he chose to vote Sunwoo later for the same reasons and actually press her.

[Bluedoom]

3 minutes ago, Rapier said:

 

@Bluedoom what's the difference between what Refa has been doing and what Boron has been doing? Is the latter worse for being uncommital on RVS, "fence sitting" or something else?

Next time, press ctrl + Z when you're with the reply box open. It sometimes reverts to what you had written (though iirc it's not guaranteed, which is why I need to get back to manually copying my post's contents already)

I agree about the observation on Refa. Marth's made sense, but could go both ways since it's also a convenient vote and I still don't see why Sunwoo is worse than Refa, since the reasoning against both seem roughly the same. This is doubly weird to me because Marth was "axe first, ask questions latter" about Refa, but then flipped this stance and started pressing his next read almost instantly after Refa brought up Sunwoo.

I've read it before as "I don't think both of those players are scum/scum", so unless my english skills are back at being terrible I'll go with this.

Also, fixing my vote.

##Vote @Bluedoom

lmao

 

I've explained this before and I'll explain this again:

My issue with refa is him being reactive when he was in the thread earlier, and asking questions is more like active lurking. Fine.

My issue with Boron...if you actually compare her reads list to mine, you'd see that we're not different(we only differ in our takes on prims and weapons.)

So if a player agrees with you mostly, is actually pursuing a scumread that you have, and is actually trying to take it somewhere, how is the natural progression to actually scumread them? Like that post was "Marth is not impressive, playing it safe" except I actually voted a scum read that she didn't. How is that safe play?

 

 

[Rapier]

4 hours ago, Shinori said:

Let's break part of this down:

First paragraph - The eliminate 1 of 3 question was a straight jab at the fact that makaze had done the same already and I think it's ABSOLUTELY POINTLESS at this point in the game(literally like 2-3 hours into the game).  This is kind of the reason I picked THEIR TWO TOWN READS and one other random person.  I also am just not a fan of stating town cores so early as 2-3 hours into the game because I don't think that's great play, but hey, prove me wrong.  It's not looking performative it's the fact that the entire fiasco and situation is pointless and that was to drive a point home.  I commented on this later in a post when Makaze themself asked me about why I picked Prims. 

There is no defensiveness here either, if people are reading me as defensive that's just wack.  I can state things are interesting to me, this doesn't mean that they are bad or that I'm worried about them.  I'm not.  There is ZERO case against me and the only person that was voting me was Prims and it was based on random RVS reaching and then they peaced out and I'm still waiting for that return like I'm waiting for the next season of No game no life(It's never happening).  How can one 'be defensive' when there is nothing to defend against or towards exactly.  If there is no case, if there is nothing pushing me and the only thing being said is "I kind of have no reason Shinori" or "Shinori is kind of null to me" or "I can't really read shinori" What is there to be defensive towards.  This is just weak piggy back arguments based on what some people have stated in the thread that already doesn't make sense and this just expands upon that.

Straight from attacking me to, kind of questioning makaze but it's all friendly here, is really interesting to me because THIS is what seems performative if we are talking about performative.  "Let me mention something about Makaze here but the reasoning is based on just guts/vibes/tones and how they reacted to those said guts/vibes/tones.  Do you have other thoughts on Makaze by any chance or is the makaze/bbm interaction the only thing that catches your eye?  I would assume not since you've read me and I've had a few interactions with them myself.

Attacking marth for swapping votes from one person to a person they were 'town reading' via like page 5 is TERRIBLE.  It's not even been like 10 hours or so by this point in time of the game, possibly not even 5 I don't know I didn't check time stamps.  Swapping a town read to a vote target is perfectly within range and reason at this point in time in the game and trying to attack someone for this I THINK is really bad.  Especially since it just leads to a seemingly "null" read afterwards because it isn't very "telling either way".

A swing and a miss baby, I'm not going down like that hit me again, I can take it. I'm a little insane if you catch my drift.

"I don't vibe with the prims scum reads" Why? Early posting was solid, no early posting was just commenting largely on RVS stuff and didn't really give much volume or definition following it.  Also this reasoning that I've bolded, which is like the whole paragraph on prims, is also just like WIFOM and random "What if" situation and terrible.  What active scum-hunting has prims done? After he made his RVS vote and peaced out they even came back real brief like to make sure and comment on the bot situation or something, so they were actively here but, as they stated themselves, were just lurking.  Even when prodded with questions from multiple people which I think is suspect to being questioned.

This reads like a very classic chainsaw defense considering I recently moved my vote towards Prims in an actual serious manner, the funny part is that I didn't state why I voted prims but SB didn't state anything about that, there was no concern on why I moved my vote which is also interesting if they are scum reading me AND town reading Prims.

It's okay to admit your wrong though, you can move your vote off of me, it's fine.  I'll allow it.

QED by this rewritting of the Bible, Shinori is still either joking around or focused entirely on defending himself versus going for targets or pressing other people for content/reads. It feels like his game is just drifting through D1, joking and defending himself when flak comes his way. That was ok-ish 12 hours ago, but now I'm honestly seeing this as scum conveniently staying under the radar despite being one of the top posters.

[Bluedoom]

Although as I'm posting this I realise that I'm taking offence to "playing safe" which I really don't think I'm doing. Which might be the crux of it.

Flipping me to "get info on sunwoo and refa" is bad anyway because I'm being voted as a chainsaw defence for refa(sunwoo is being ignored by the voters) so that's a pretty terrible argument to make.