Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Just now, BBM said: marth wasn't really an active wagon anymore at the time he voted refa, at least in energy if not in votes there's also a difference between bussing on like d2 or d3 vs d1. i dont have very many hard mafia rules but one is that it's objectively bad scumplay to get your buddy lynched on d1. any towncred you get is not worth the fact that at least 3-4 other townies will also get it and you will put yourself at a huge numbers and role disadvantage. anyways there's not a point in arguing it more for now cuz my intent with the question was more to see what scum intent you saw there @Rapier i don't believe that both you and weapons are scum, no. i don't love that that's where i'm at with my top two scumreads but if I'm good at mafia and am correct then I can update my reads accordingly after a flip. i don't really understand what you're saying about makaze since I think he'd said enough about shinori (even at the time of the post) Most of the things you say are contrarian, trying to make reads sound less legitimate, and I'm not sure how that helps the town game if I'm being honest Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 1 minute ago, Sunwoo said: What kind of logic even is this My vote should move when impacts the elimination, and I don't see a reason to change it for appearances Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 oml this site ate my post again i love losing 20 minutes of my life ACTUALLY big fan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rapier Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Just now, Refa said: oml this site ate my post again i love losing 20 minutes of my life ACTUALLY big fan press ctrl + z refa sometimes it works and the post returns to the reply box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 i also hate this site with a passion i wish we had moved to mu immediately euklyd didn't save me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 if you are on a pc please use this extension, it saves all your form history https://stephanmahieu.github.io/fhc-home/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 votes are how you show priorities changing. if nobody votes except to secure a lynch then it greatly decreases the extent to which associative reads later are helpful. i don't actually mind your vote staying on marth if you actually find him scummy and are engaging with his posts i think arguing against bad logic is helpful for town. if you dont want me to make your reads seem less legitimate, have better reads Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I felt the same way about Makaze but I thought his reasoning WRT me/Bluedoom felt like a town way of looking at it. I think some of his progression from earlier bugs me but my read on him now is that he's just not being good about elaborating on his reads as opposed to fabricating them. 8 minutes ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said: Ok, hmm. @Refa would you say what I said about your meta was accurate? Also, can you summarize your read progressions through the game, if you would be so kind You mean me playing like I do when I'm scum? I genuinely can't remember the last time I've played scum, so I don't know and it really doesn't bother me. I just want to know what part of my scum meta am I playing too and why that's scummy so there's something I can respond too. I had a pretty detailed response to your next point but kinda demotivated that it all went away but the jist of it is: BBM: Null -> Town Bluedoom: Scum -> Town Charlie: Null -> Scum CT075: Scum -> Town Makaze: Scum -> Null Rapier: Town -> Scum Sunwoo: Scum -> Town Weapons: Town -> Scum I can give a more detailed explanation on any of these if needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Just now, BBM said: votes are how you show priorities changing. if nobody votes except to secure a lynch then it greatly decreases the extent to which associative reads later are helpful. i don't actually mind your vote staying on marth if you actually find him scummy and are engaging with his posts i think arguing against bad logic is helpful for town. if you dont want me to make your reads seem less legitimate, have better reads i don't think votes are more real than post content, because you may as well post "##Finger of suspicion Makaze" which has just as much meaning mechanically. It gets more interesting with hammer and at EOD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 will use that makaze thanks i disagree w/makaze about how votes are used but i think talking about it is a waste of thread space and isn't alignment indicative for him. this is a conversation better saved for postgame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, BBM said: i think arguing against bad logic is helpful for town. if you dont want me to make your reads seem less legitimate, have better reads sorry this was a bit mean. anyways i dont care to continue to argue this specific gameplay point further here, seems NAI and would be better/easier discussed out of thread after the game Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, BBM said: votes are how you show priorities changing. if nobody votes except to secure a lynch then it greatly decreases the extent to which associative reads later are helpful. i don't actually mind your vote staying on marth if you actually find him scummy and are engaging with his posts i think arguing against bad logic is helpful for town. if you dont want me to make your reads seem less legitimate, have better reads There is an element of WIFOM to everything you're arguing, but you always choose to argue for the other alternative, without actually claiming that the alternative is the case. You're fighting narratives instead of pushing them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 4 minutes ago, Makaze said: My vote should move when impacts the elimination, and I don't see a reason to change it for appearances I really hate this logic. People get scared by having votes on them, which can sometimes get them to crack or slip or otherwise produce more telling reads. Putting your vote on someone helps other players see where your priorities are, pick apart your reasoning if it's bad and decide if it comes from scum or not, and get an idea of where they need to consolidate. What you're advocating is being useless and helpful in pushing the game along, and being passive. Are you guys absolutely sure you don't want to try lynching Makaze today? Are we no longer testing lynchproof claims now? I'm advocating a vig shot on Makaze if we don't lynch him today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 *unhelpful in pushing the game along I miss being able to edit my posts ;/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 I also disagree with most of what Makaze has been saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Just now, BBM said: sorry this was a bit mean. anyways i dont care to continue to argue this specific gameplay point further here, seems NAI and would be better/easier discussed out of thread after the game If this is actually about style and not scum indicative, I'm not sure how I could see it You're arguing that Bluedoom could not make bad plays as mafia, but genuineness is what I'm arguing, not optimal play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 the lynchproof claim is not real, so i don't think anyone should be basing their vote around that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 2 minutes ago, Sunwoo said: I really hate this logic. People get scared by having votes on them, which can sometimes get them to crack or slip or otherwise produce more telling reads. Putting your vote on someone helps other players see where your priorities are, pick apart your reasoning if it's bad and decide if it comes from scum or not, and get an idea of where they need to consolidate. What you're advocating is being useless and helpful in pushing the game along, and being passive. Are you guys absolutely sure you don't want to try lynching Makaze today? Are we no longer testing lynchproof claims now? I'm advocating a vig shot on Makaze if we don't lynch him today. I guess I will test this and see what happens ##Vote @Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Automated Votecount Refa (6): BT. (23), Prims (35), j00 (32), Bluedoom (49), WeaponsofMassConstruction (51), Makaze (136) Makaze (3): Elieson (4), Sunwoo (49), Refa (38) Rapier (2): charlie_ (28), BBM (32) Percivalé (1): Shinori (67) WeaponsofMassConstruction (1): Rapier (47) Bluedoom (1): Snike (19) Not voting (2): Percivalé (25), CT075 (15) Spoiler Yeah Prims and I'm like trying to work on a case but I am fairly tired. I feel obligated to do a big quote post or whatever but I mean ultimately it just does come down to vibes. Maybe if I were to make a more in-depth point, it is how he's surfacing interesting points and whatnot, but that they feel oddly singled out in some respect. Like, if you are able to come up with these ideas, surely you would notice more things in more parts of posts by more players. So why is this the set of things that you'd comment on. That's what specifically felt odd to me about him picking out Snike among the other check-ins. I suppose this is also because he's been on Snike, and you, and then said a few things about me, where it's like, this feels like a designed push rather than an earnest attempt to solve with these being my townreads. @j00 you know what fair enough about the lazy. FMPOV given that I have a lot of townreads, Elie makes a lot of sense as scum. Tbh I may be committing to reads a bit more than I actually feel because I feel obligated to. I guess that sort of contradicts my previous post, but at least in this case, I do think you have to commit to reads on some level to move the game forward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makaze Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 You may not like my philosophy but that does not make me mafia Spoiler I am going to bed before I can make any less sense Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 11 minutes ago, Refa said: You mean me playing like I do when I'm scum? I genuinely can't remember the last time I've played scum, so I don't know and it really doesn't bother me. I just want to know what part of my scum meta am I playing too and why that's scummy so there's something I can respond too. I had a pretty detailed response to your next point but kinda demotivated that it all went away but the jist of it is: I remember you were pretty gung ho about things as town and struggled to be as active as scum. More of like a "I'm town, bitch" vibe which in general is hard to replicate. Also, but less significantly I remember you relied more on walls and list posts in a specific scum game, though I even believe that was OC. What was the reasoning behind the Rapier shift? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BBM Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 yes marth could be making a suboptimal play and that's something to consider in terms of like, whether you want to exclude that from his record, so to speak, and focus on other scummy things. that doesn't mean that the non-scummy play is actively scummy claiming that i'm not trying to make cases on anybody is pretty egregiously wrong and i'm getting quite frustrated with you atm so will exit the thread for now and think about it later in terms of your alignment Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Oh I'm not a top wagon anymore, alright back to being lazy ##Vote: @Prims Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prims Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 ##Unvote ##Vote: @WeaponsofMassConstruction Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WeaponsofMassConstruction Posted May 28 Share Posted May 28 Why the vote? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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