(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Makaze]

4 minutes ago, Shinori said:

Whatchu mean 12 waffles?

It looks like rapier is attacking makaze for sussing me but not pushing me(aka potentially egging on makaze to pressure me directly)
At the same time rapier sussed me early on, then seemed to have backed off of that sus, and if they are defending me by attacking you, it reads that they would be closer to town leaning me but this doesn't actually make too much sense because part of their wording seems to imply the logic against me is something they believe.
Thus I don't get or know where rapiers progression on me has ended up at and I do not know their read on me.
It feels like they are both defending me, and sussing me, while attacking someone else WHO IS ACTIVELY sus of me but not directly engaging me.

Which possibilitt do you believe is rhe reality and how would you test if it isnthe case?

[Makaze]

1 minute ago, Shinori said:

You are gonna have to retype this sentence for me because I do not understand what you said.

you seem to have started reading with an agenda and upon finding things that could be used to justify other lines of reasoning, you have mentioned other things that you could be justifying, but I'm not getting the feeling that you are actually finding out what you believe more than you are finding out what you can justify reasonably

[Shinori]

8 hours ago, Bluedoom said:

I don't like Shinori's vote on percy, not because of the logic(that was my initial reaction too upon reading his post) but because that kinda ignores what's happening in the thread over the last few pages when it was dropped, and there weren't other posts about other things in the thread.

I'm not expecting others to react to every single thing that happens in this thread or even read every page/every player.  If we expect people to respond about any and every interaction then we probably won't get stuff done.

I'm also more likely to make a mental jot or note of things in my head than to reply to every little thing in the thread.  Via's post caught my attention and I wanted to question the logic, it helps me solve Via's slot specifically.  Having a better read of Via actively helps me progress my view on other players in the game and draws reactions.

If you want me to respond to something in specific then ask me about it.  I'm not going to specifically respond to everything that happens and this is poor reason to sus someone imo.  This post is literally just saying "I don't like that shinori pursued their own train of thought instead of piping in on what everyone else is doing"

[BBM]

Sorry I meant to wake up early today to do some rereading of refa specifically before I went to work but that didn't happen.

@Prims so without rereading, I'll say that I've had some small issues here and there with his posts but nothing has really stood out to me as super scummy. I don't really understand the bit about him being docile. But I feel relatively good about the people on the wagon so I would be ok consolidating on refa if the rapier energy isn't there.

I asked you about rapier I thought there might be some weird interactions between scum rapier and you

We're down to ~12 hrs before lynch. I'd really rather not use the extension today because this phase is already longer than the rest and we got out of RVS pretty quickly, so at this point I'd rather have a flip than an extra day. Imo refa should claim

 

[Shinori]

3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Which possibilitt do you believe is rhe reality and how would you test if it isnthe case?

The possibility is that I think Rapier is still scummy and their wording and thought process leaves them open to follow multiple different paths which is not something I favor.

Quote

you seem to have started reading with an agenda and upon finding things that could be used to justify other lines of reasoning, you have mentioned other things that you could be justifying, but I'm not getting the feeling that you are actually finding out what you believe more than you are finding out what you can justify reasonably

What do you mean by I am reading with an agenda?  Your current wording is making it hard for me to understand what you're saying.

If you are saying that I'm scum and that I 'decided' I would view certain people as scum and that I'm just looking for reasonings to fit the bill and trying to hammer those home, then why would I do this in a reactionary manner?

My view and thoughts towards Rapier, SB, and Via, all came after seeing their posts and replying to them after they made them, two of which were focused more towards me and one was not.  If I was scum aiming to push an agenda that I made, wouldn't I just actively be aiming to push my agenda first instead of having to wait to be adressed or wait for someone to post?

[Makaze]

in other words you are posting reasonable arguments about what could be reads but you do not have conviction about what world you are actually seeing. What's weird about that is that you are not working towards narrowing down your own PoE

tldr it does not look like you are solving genuinely

[Makaze]

2 minutes ago, Shinori said:

The possibility is that I think Rapier is still scummy and their wording and thought process leaves them open to follow multiple different paths which is not something I favor.

What do you mean by I am reading with an agenda?  Your current wording is making it hard for me to understand what you're saying.

If you are saying that I'm scum and that I 'decided' I would view certain people as scum and that I'm just looking for reasonings to fit the bill and trying to hammer those home, then why would I do this in a reactionary manner?

My view and thoughts towards Rapier, SB, and Via, all came after seeing their posts and replying to them after they made them, two of which were focused more towards me and one was not.  If I was scum aiming to push an agenda that I made, wouldn't I just actively be aiming to push my agenda first instead of having to wait to be adressed or wait for someone to post?

this right here. you think that he could be scummy but scumminess is about appearances and not about what he actually is. you are looking at things from who is the skinniest player instead of which players are actually the mafia. this is a who is the easiest to shade type of read

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, Shinori said:

The possibility is that I think Rapier is still scummy and their wording and thought process leaves them open to follow multiple different paths which is not something I favor.

What do you mean by I am reading with an agenda?  Your current wording is making it hard for me to understand what you're saying.

If you are saying that I'm scum and that I 'decided' I would view certain people as scum and that I'm just looking for reasonings to fit the bill and trying to hammer those home, then why would I do this in a reactionary manner?

My view and thoughts towards Rapier, SB, and Via, all came after seeing their posts and replying to them after they made them, two of which were focused more towards me and one was not.  If I was scum aiming to push an agenda that I made, wouldn't I just actively be aiming to push my agenda first instead of having to wait to be adressed or wait for someone to post?

"Rapier could be scummy" vs "Rapier could be scum"

@BBM

What are you seeing

[BBM]

@Shinori less that you were cherry picking a post, I know percy only had like two posts. I mean more that the weapons bit was a pretty small throwaway part of the post

Sorry I misread your earlier post I thought you were saying you already felt Percy was town when you made the original vote. I guess you hadn't (and still haven't) unvoted him though which is what confused me.

[Shinori]

1 minute ago, Makaze said:

in other words you are posting reasonable arguments about what could be reads but you do not have conviction about what world you are actually seeing. What's weird about that is that you are not working towards narrowing down your own PoE

tldr it does not look like you are solving genuinely

'reasonable arguments' 'no conviction' - my scum reads have not changed much since I latched onto like 3 people that have heavily pinged me and look like scum to me.  I have marked a handful of people that I feel like are town which I'm currently keeping most of that held close to my chest because I still don't vibe with the whole "constantly out town reads" which i know is something that happens on MU a lot via stuff like town hunting instead of scum hunting(Princess abigail for an example).

"I'm not working towards narrowing down my PoE" - I do have some of a PoE, in a specific manner that I have people I am actively saying I think are scum.  I'm not making a full blown "PoE" of the whole game because to me, outside of the comments made in the thread, there is currently no proper information(flips, information roles outting, claims, etc) that can lead towards a proper logical PoE.  Any CONCRETE PoE made without information is just shoddy work and ends up falling a part in my eyes.  I have scum reads, I have town reads, I'm pushing my scum reads.

Saying I have no conviction in my scum reads is ass when Rapier and SB have been maintained as my two strongest scum reads of the game.  Even if my weapons read has weakened and my via read wasn't a full blown scum read, don't belittle me.

Just now, Makaze said:

this right here. you think that he could be scummy but scumminess is about appearances and not about what he actually is. you are looking at things from who is the skinniest player instead of which players are actually the mafia. this is a who is the easiest to shade type of read

No, I would state this is a misrep of my posts but I feel it's more a misunderstanding of my thought process.  And that's fine.  I actively think leaving yourself multiple avenues of choice is scum-sided intent of game play.  If you are actively pushing others to do your work or actively waiting for others to make  a case that you can then jump towards or you are actively leaving people in a state of "Oh I can't read em, oh I'm waffling, Oh I think this action is scummy but iono I could see it from town" then you are actively making it so that you can flip your read on said person at any point in time without putting, as you would put it, conviction into your read.

Thus I think Rapier is scummy for leaving their progression towards me open, whereas they are pushing YOU to directly confront me but aren't asking me more stuff themselves, because it gives THEM the ability to CHANGE their view and point as they so choose depending on thread state.

[Makaze]

6 minutes ago, Makaze said:

this right here. you think that he could be scummy but scumminess is about appearances and not about what he actually is. you are looking at things from who is the skinniest player instead of which players are actually the mafia. this is a who is the easiest to shade type of read

skinniest is how my phone interpreted scummiest

eat more to be town thus saith the lord

[Percivalé]

official response to the shinori vote on me 

initially when it happened I was doing that thing where when I think someone's case on me is bad and I'm not already 100% townreading them I jump to assuming they're scum taking advantage of me being bad, which now I don't believe is the case anymore 
1. because again it's ultra silly for scum!shinori to push me late D1 when we have like 3 main wagons and draw attention to himself that way. iirc he mentioned not liking any of the current wagons a little bit before I posted so that lines up with his behavior. conspiracy theory could be that was setting something up and I just happened to be an easy target cuz I came in and posted dogshit but that's a really dumb conspiracy theory
2. I only thought his case on me was bad because I could tell he hadn't read any of my other posts and it frustrated me at the time (it's a big pet peeve of mine); I had made that statement about weapons in my first post and therefore was confused why he hadn't pressed me then about it but scumread me for the second time I said it
3. now that I'm chilled out I don't think that it's objectively bad to vote me for saying what I said/for my D1 play in general because it has been dogshit. although I will say (take this with a grain of salt I hate using self-meta arguments but) I would like to think as scum I'd be smarter about letting slip that I'm aware someone who is town is town (shinori's TMI argument) & I think shinori/rapier were reading too much into the semantics of what I said--and this had frustrated me too because I've really just been trying to be more direct in some of the things I say as like an experiment if you will so to be scumread for that was like meh. but no I don't think that anyone's automatically scum for thinking I'm scum because my play has been bad. I don't even have a vote on anybody right now

I do agree that it is stupid to elim somebody solely for the purpose of seeing their flip rather than because I think somebody is scum, and I never meant to say that my first choice for today's elim was somebody I didn't think is scum, because it's not. I made that statement within the context of the current wagons which seemed to be weapons/refa/bluedoom and meant it more as "IF the weapons elim happens today it would still be an interesting flip to look at." it's 100% definitely scummy behavior to push an elim on somebody and state that your purpose for pushing them is to see their flip (while implying that you know they are town) & line up elim targets for the next few days on that town flip's wagoners. this was not what I was doing though. it would be incredibly moronic for scum!me, who has no presence in this game whatsoever, is notoriously bad at being assertive (and has been this game), visibly not driving the gamestate really at all right now, to suddenly come in and attempt to sway the whole game of 16 players to line up lynches with me. that's like the stupidest decision I could ever make at all and now that I've had time to think about it, part of the emotional way I responded yesterday was because frankly I was insulted at this suggestion lmao. you're allowed to think I'm scum but to assume I'd be that stupid as scum how dare you. fight me in the arby's parking lot.

I'm not sure what I think about rapier right now but I got vibes from the way he piggybacked off shinori, not because he did it but because he was way more into the semantics argument and he actually feels more like opportunistic scum latching onto my case rather than shinori (no I don't know how to expand on this really it's just vibes). I don't think shinori is scum, I think his pressure was me was fair if not clumsy

[Bluedoom]

  

11 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I am more interested in seeing if I believe your thought process is town minded and if you are thinking in terms of possibilities or... just about how you will move because you already know the only possibility

Well I think a town!you implies that there's something wrong in SB/BBM/j00/Boron from my perspective. And maybe cam:

I think j00's initial post felt like tmi in the way she treated reading you so that'd be a point I'd think about in this scenario. I think j00 and Prims are the people whose reads and ideas of the game I've mindmelded with the most though so this is weird.

SB because I think you're the perfect person to use a logically robust case on to come up with as content if you're town at this stage in the game.

BBM because I think something that sticks with me is some of his reactions to votes on you are like, the votes are bad, but I didn't get the feeling that he's pushing the people who're voting you much. EDIT: Yeah I had to check and it looks like he only thinks Refa's vote on you was bad? I don't get a sense of how he's treating his read on you though. Tbh that probably has to do with your arguments with him since page 22. Before I checked this I was actually under the impression that he wasn't attempting to read you fsr.

Boron because page 13-17 has a stretch where most of her content is related to you. I think the vote is earlier though but I had to check this earlier and I think most of it is related to either explaining her read on you or talking about you in general.

Cam because I think there's a lot on you between his 3 posts so it feels weird that the vote goes on weapons. TMI? Feel unsure about this one.

I don't think your alignment tells me anything about Weapons/Rapier, at least I can't think of any noteworthy interactions between you and them.

I'm unsure if scum!Refa votes you and then unvotes you after you start explaining your thought process and they claim that they have a better feeling of you. Right now my vote is there anyway because I don't think he gave me a convincing defence and he's my top scumread atm but I'd have to consider this case.

 

 

 

[Shinori]

Just now, BBM said:

@Shinori less that you were cherry picking a post, I know percy only had like two posts. I mean more that the weapons bit was a pretty small throwaway part of the post

Sorry I misread your earlier post I thought you were saying you already felt Percy was town when you made the original vote. I guess you hadn't (and still haven't) unvoted him though which is what confused me.

I can understand that, I will state, the rest of Perci's post didn't bother me, that's why I didn't particularly comment on it.  That's why I 'cherry-picked' the part about weapons.  It pinged me in a weird manner.

[Percivalé]

his pressure on me*

[Shinori]

##Vote: @Rapier

[BT.]

@charlie_ You've been doing the same thing as Rapier all day where you register Refa as a presence, even bounce questions off of them but it never seems like you're trying to gauge their alignment except for a blurb about willing to consolidate there. So I'm sitting here wondering if you haven't looked at that slot seriously yet and if so, why not? The post where you post the votals and ask Refa their thoughts about it is pinging me, like you're avoiding being direct about them.

[Makaze]

@Shinori What is it possible that someone "could be" scummy?

[Makaze]

Just now, Makaze said:

@Shinori What is it possible that someone "could be" scummy?

How*

I am going to read charlie

[BBM]

3 minutes ago, Makaze said:

"Rapier could be scummy" vs "Rapier could be scum"

@BBM

What are you seeing

I'll be honest this distinction doesn't make a lot of sense to me, I use scummy and scum sort of interchangeably in the sense that if I say someone is scummy I think they're scum.

Actually @Shinori one thing that Percy reminded me, you'd made some post like you weren't feeling the wagons. At the time I thought maybe some of your reads had changed but if your three main scumreads are still sb/weapons/rapier, then two of those are wagons? Maybe rapier wasn't quite there at the time but weapons definitely was

[Percivalé]

Quote

The Percy/Shinori spat was weird. tbh I had been reading them both as "tonally town but I'm not yet 100% sure it's outside the realm of what I believe they can fake". I don't find either lynch interesting today. I would like to bounce my thoughts about Weapons/Refa off Percy also if he's around. I don't know how caught up he is though. @Percivalé

@Prims I'll get back to you on this if you still want to I'm not caught up yet & was lurking last night while we were at H Mart, sorry about that

[Shinori]

2 minutes ago, Makaze said:

@Shinori What is it possible that someone "could be" scummy?

Man I ctrl + f the words "could be" and it wasn't in my post.

[Makaze]

7 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

  

Well I think a town!you implies that there's something wrong in SB/BBM/j00/Boron from my perspective. And maybe cam:

I think j00's initial post felt like tmi in the way she treated reading you so that'd be a point I'd think about in this scenario. I think j00 and Prims are the people whose reads and ideas of the game I've mindmelded with the most though so this is weird.

SB because I think you're the perfect person to use a logically robust case on to come up with as content if you're town at this stage in the game.

BBM because I think something that sticks with me is some of his reactions to votes on you are like, the votes are bad, but I didn't get the feeling that he's pushing the people who're voting you much. EDIT: Yeah I had to check and it looks like he only thinks Refa's vote on you was bad? I don't get a sense of how he's treating his read on you though. Tbh that probably has to do with your arguments with him since page 22. Before I checked this I was actually under the impression that he wasn't attempting to read you fsr.

Boron because page 13-17 has a stretch where most of her content is related to you. I think the vote is earlier though but I had to check this earlier and I think most of it is related to either explaining her read on you or talking about you in general.

Cam because I think there's a lot on you between his 3 posts so it feels weird that the vote goes on weapons. TMI? Feel unsure about this one.

I don't think your alignment tells me anything about Weapons/Rapier, at least I can't think of any noteworthy interactions between you and them.

I'm unsure if scum!Refa votes you and then unvotes you after you start explaining your thought process and they claim that they have a better feeling of you. Right now my vote is there anyway because I don't think he gave me a convincing defence and he's my top scumread atm but I'd have to consider this case.

 

 

 

I was actually asking because I wanted to know who would lead the town when I'm gone, but I do like where this is going.

It feels like you are setting up possible arguments against these people. Do you see what I'm saying? This is exactly the moves-instead-of-reads that I see as scum leaning

[BBM]

Ok got to head off now but rapier should also claim. I'll try to at least check in midday if there are huge developments but I probably won't be fully back until about an hour left before deadline 

[Percivalé]

I have to be awake in 6 hours so I have to go again sorry x_x really upset I fell asleep cuz I was hoping to be all caught up tonight. will be back