(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[Makaze]

I am closing this thread and will not respond to direct pings, so do not bait me; see you when we have something

[Percivalé]

I wish I could bait some more chicken tenders into my mouth rn

[Shinori]

5 minutes ago, Percivalé said:

it feels like baiting scum team to kill you would make them less likely to kill you

🙂

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

i actually do think lost wolf should be considered seriously. I really feel like role cop would just be called role cop and it would explain why I felt cam read pure (especially him talking about waffling). Immediate start after role pms is also relevant (though speculative)

[Bluedoom]

Makaze your worldview insinuates that I picked fights with townies(read:Boron) because I got annoyed that they didn't vote refa with me. That not only draws attention to scum!me, but also scum!Refa and that's terrible self pres play for mafia, I'm a self aware enough person not to do that.

This doesn't even get into how bad bussing D1 in general is and how bad specifically for scum!me it would be; Refa was defending me from a bunch of cases ED1 and even into LD1, and I still cased him and got him lynched. You're telling me that I got the role that presumably bypasses docs/watchertracks/blocks that also would be a voice for me when I'm in trouble, lynched because I wanted towncred.

What?

[Bluedoom]

Like think of the situation where your other buddy is Cam, the guy who barely posts in the thread, and +1, and tell me you think bussing even makes sense there

[Sunwoo]

At this point, I'd advocate a vig shot on Makaze even though I think he's most likely town. I can imagine a scenario where his stubbornness fucks us up in later phases by making it harder to get lynches, or strong-arming the rest of us into going with what he wants even if most of us don't agree because it's the only way to get a lynch.

It's like, having reads and priorities that are contrary to other players is fine. But adamantly refusing to explain those reads at all and work with other players is just ... bad.

[Rapier]

3 hours ago, Makaze said:

##Vote @WeaponsofMassConstruction

Nothing has changed about my PoE

I don't think Weapons insisting on voting Prims when his scumbuddy was so close to being lynched makes sense, honestly.

So far Weapons seems more town, judging from his behavior at the end of D1 and Refa's flip. Shinori looks terrible for reasons I already stated before in D2 and D1 and so far he seems the best lynch candidate for me, in light of Refa's flip. BBM's take about Shinori interacting little with Refa and not being conclusive on his opinions about him make sense to me as well.

Marth's bait and switch from Refa looks odd to me now and I feel like I was onto something when I called Marth when he first voted Refa on D1 without further pressing him for info, then quickly switching to Boron a few posts later. I'm confused and tired.

3 hours ago, Percivalé said:

well I mean this is true, but I'm operating under the assumption weapons is town--BBM would have looked SUPER BAD swinging the vote towards weapons last minute. I guess this doesnt apply if weapons is also scum but I dont think he is

Weapons was a scumread of his since mid D1, so I wouldn't find it strange if he switched last minute to Weapons, as BBM himself explained later

51 minutes ago, Shinori said:

@BluedoomI expect to die tonight anyway from mafia, If mafia actively leaves me alive past today then that's just silly.  I want them to shoot me.  And if I'm getting shot anyway then maybe I just claim.  Saves us some time and if it helps communication with makaze who I HEAVILY read as town, like probably the most town person in this game in my eyes then I'm willing to do that, because I want to understand their thoughts and views in this game.

I want to know how they arrived at bluedoom/Elie scum and how they arrived at Dusk town.

Makaze refuses to elaborate on their reads, especially why certain people are town. I tried to ask them to explain their town reads YESTERDAY and was ignored then. So it's time to go to drastic levels to get a response.

I have no idea why you're so sure you're dying today from mafia and how it's silly for them to let you live. Makaze being a townread of yours doesn't mean his opinions on everyone else is right, just genuine. This is not an A = B = C scenario.

 

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I will second the vig shot. The way he’s playing he can easily throw the game. (I’m also not sure he’s not just scum, but I’m trusting everyone else here)

[Rapier]

I think the meta discussion on whether there's a scum member who doesn't know his teammates and is operating alone is more distracting than anything since it's very vague speculation that's never been done in SF before, and this also doesn't make me see Shinori in a good light for first suggesting it.

Yeah I'm happy with this vote for now.

##Vote @Shinori

My conflict over Shinori boils down to... me agreeing with his takes on Marth and SB, mostly. I need to think this over.

[Shinori]

3 minutes ago, Rapier said:

I think the meta discussion on whether there's a scum member who doesn't know his teammates and is operating alone is more distracting than anything since it's very vague speculation that's never been done in SF before, and this also doesn't make me see Shinori in a good light for first suggesting it.

Yeah I'm happy with this vote for now.

##Vote @Shinori

My conflict over Shinori boils down to... me agreeing with his takes on Marth and SB, mostly. I need to think this over.

Assume a lynch on me is just not happening, where do you go next?

[Rapier]

16 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

At this point, I'd advocate a vig shot on Makaze even though I think he's most likely town. I can imagine a scenario where his stubbornness fucks us up in later phases by making it harder to get lynches, or strong-arming the rest of us into going with what he wants even if most of us don't agree because it's the only way to get a lynch.

It's like, having reads and priorities that are contrary to other players is fine. But adamantly refusing to explain those reads at all and work with other players is just ... bad.

Makaze seems like a third party with its own agenda to me. He doesn't seem scummy but he doesn't seem to care about being particularly colaborative with town. This is not the first time he's been stubbornly cryptic, self-absorbed and bullheaded.

And yes I know this just throws flak on him for the scum team to consider, but honestly having a SK Makaze flip on N2 would clear so many things that I don't care if we get an independent to die. It's not town, so.

[Shinori]

ALSO I DIDNT SUGGEST IT LOL

[Rapier]

Just now, Shinori said:

Assume a lynch on me is just not happening, where do you go next?

Your points on SB made me think and I'd like to ISO them when it's not 1 AM and I'm as stupid as I usually am

I don't see the point of voting Dusk further. Just waiting until they say anything in order to think things through.

[Rapier]

2 minutes ago, Shinori said:

ALSO I DIDNT SUGGEST IT LOL

yeah, first person who said it was makaze, my bad

in this case it's makaze being makaze imo

[Shinori]

Okay that's all g, just wanted to check what your thought process was outside of me.

[Rapier]

With that said, I feel that Snike read too much into SB talking about outside mafia corrupting Shinori's view of the game. It was clearly about his view on posting and content, and it'd make little sense for anyone else as a crumb but Shinori in case he was scum.

I think this shouldn't be disconsidered altogether but also that it shouldn't guide town actions until we have more evidence.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Consigliere

https://mafiagg.fandom.com/wiki/Consigliere?so=search

Like, actually how is it not lost wolf

[Makaze]

40 minutes ago, Bluedoom said:

Makaze your worldview insinuates that I picked fights with townies(read:Boron) because I got annoyed that they didn't vote refa with me. That not only draws attention to scum!me, but also scum!Refa and that's terrible self pres play for mafia, I'm a self aware enough person not to do that.

This doesn't even get into how bad bussing D1 in general is and how bad specifically for scum!me it would be; Refa was defending me from a bunch of cases ED1 and even into LD1, and I still cased him and got him lynched. You're telling me that I got the role that presumably bypasses docs/watchertracks/blocks that also would be a voice for me when I'm in trouble, lynched because I wanted towncred.

What?

Breaking the silence to consider this argument. There is a possiblity that you are just weird and detached from all of your reads, but the way you handled your Refa case is baffling as either alignment:

Spoiler

On 5/25/2024 at 10:12 PM, Bluedoom said:

I'd probably put something like: 

Town: weapons(agreed with his vote at the time it was made), Rapier(free flowimg posting, attacking everyone on sight, seems to be what I remember of his meta)

 

Maybe town?: Boron, I think questioning people on why they read her the way they do, even if they town read her, is a healthy dose of paranoia. Just that I think that's easily fakeable at this stage of the game but it is a point in her favour 

 

Coinflip: Prims(i agree that makaze sk hunting is weird but that's a lot of words just to say that someone is nai and weapons might be on to something here), makaze(prodding people the way he's doing seems like something I'd imagine town makaze do but the sk hunting is sus)

 

Anyone who read shinori's game in champs this year, can you summarise what was his scum game like? Thanks, i don't know how to read the guy. 

 

I was going to vote bbm off of low presence but I think I'll vote refa, too many questions with a lack of conclusion. 

 

##Vote @Refa

On 5/26/2024 at 2:32 PM, Bluedoom said:

Tbh I have a hard time believing that none of the people sus of me are mafia but if someone asked me who is likelier to flip mafia I'd have a tough time answering that question.

 

-I think Rapier's logic for voting me isn't good. You don't think its concerning that the reasons I'm being voted/sussed for are voting refa/a list post on page 5 instead of my vote on Boron? Are you not concerned that this could be the scenario where scum are either defending their buddy boron/refa or are chainsaw defending them to pocket them? You say that I make sense, then in the event where I am town, from your perspective this would be a major concern. Why would flipping me be useful, its actually worse. That said I don't want to pursue this line because I genuinely think you're town and the last time I cased you on bad logic that ended up in a mislynch, pretty paranoid of that happening again.

-I think charlie's is the closest I can get behind, but also, not sure what to say because at that point in time I felt like calling out the hypocrisy was merited.

-I don't really have an answer to Makaze's vote on me and have no idea what I'd even have to say there. I think bringing me up as consolidation is bad but as I noted earlier I don't see him trying to convince anyone of his reads...and I feel like scum!Makaze would want to do that more.

-Gun to head I'd vote Snike here because I think ignoring my boron vote until it was pointed out and then doubling down on the reasoning saying that my handling of the vote justifies his read on my listpost looks pretty bad.

-I'm frustrated with Boron because it feels like I'm just being told that everything I said is bad when its like. Dude. Even if I'm wrong about you think from the other side lol. Doubling down and saying that everything I said sucked all along isn't conducive to discussion if that is your intention. That said I'm going to ##Unvote Because I'm not interested in continuing this and am aware that I'm tunneling at this point.

On 5/25/2024 at 10:35 PM, Bluedoom said:

On 5/25/2024 at 10:22 PM, Refa said:

I don't get your Prims read. You agree with what he said but you're bothered because he wrote three sentences? What makes this something Mafia!Prims does?

 

So mafia are incentivized to post more/bigger without saying much, and I think the post where Prims talks about his Makaze read fits the bill for that. Only reason I'm not voting him here is because I do agree that SK hunting is sketchy, so its not like he didn't have a point. But I think devoting a paragraph on why what someone did is sus only to arrive at the conclusion that its actually NAI feels off to me.

And in my defence I read the thread while on phone so posts look a lot bigger to me.

On 5/25/2024 at 10:56 PM, Bluedoom said:

On 5/25/2024 at 10:41 PM, Rapier said:

Since BBM is away

##Vote: @Bluedoom

Refa is right there and you're even interacting with him, but you choose not to pursue him for his "questions without conclusion"? You could ask him where he wants to go with them and yet you just aren't.

As I said before, Bluedoom's post feels like a bunch of contradictory or vague stances on people, meta reads that could go either way as town or mafia (scum are also aggressive/probing people), and he leaves a vote on Refa and doesn't really bother to pursue the reason he finds Refa scummy even while interacting with him about other things (mostly justifying his reads). As he said, seems like too many words, like you want to show you have formed opinions & are doing something while... not really.

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I don't need to question Refa if I think he's just having a background presence, like what am I supposed to say, "Hey yeah dude I noticed that you didn't go anywhere with your reads, explain" isn't getting me anywhere, just vote the guy and make him come up with stuff when there's a wagon on him. Do you disagree with my read on him?

I prefaced that in my first post saying that I wasn't going to have concrete reads because of how it was easy to argue a lot of behaviour patterns both ways, like I acknowledge that I've got reads that look contradictory but what do you expect in early D1? There's a reason I haven't voted any of those in favour of a Refa/BBM vote.

On 5/25/2024 at 11:31 PM, Bluedoom said:

@Rapier I'm personally a vote first axe questions later guy

@Refa Oh I get it now, thing is I'm conflicted on Prims too because it kinda feels bad if I'm wrong and he was just posting in a stream of conscience style, and I find it hard to justify him over bbm in that sense because...its kinda like in EiMM where you want to shoot people who talked to you less because you have less of an idea of where they're at? Similar point here. Reason I'm voting you over BBM is that you're active in the thread right now so its easier to gauge reactions.

 

As for how does it change, well what changed is that Boron is  sus because  her last post where she says both of us are sus feels very...empty? Gonna come up with another post on that. I guess on that note can you post a reads list of where your head is at atm?

On 5/25/2024 at 11:47 PM, Bluedoom said:

On 5/25/2024 at 10:44 PM, Sunwoo said:

I'm gonna step away from my computer for about an hour or so, my eyes are getting really tired staring at the screen. Before I go, some thoughts:

Prims and Rapier are town-leaning for me. It's not a strong town read, but I feel like their posts have intent at least and are trying to get something out of it

No real objections to Shinori's play, but I'm not getting a town lean feeling from him so I'm reluctant to say I'm reading him as town. (That said, I couldn't tell you anything that makes him feel like scum either. Ugh ...) Makaze feels like Makaze, which means that some of his actions feel scummy (as mentioned earlier) but I also can't think of how it actually benefits him as scum.

BBM and Snike don't really exist, so I really have no thoughts on them. I kinda forgot they'd posted to begin with.

On Refa, I see him posting a lot but I can't actually remember anything he's said, which means he's not being memorable enough (how ironic). Marth doesn't impress me very much, I feel like his posts feel kinda safe. Weapons doesn't really make a lot of sense to me, and if he answered my last question towards him I didn't see it. Of the currently active players, I guess I'd feel the worst about these three.

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so first, Unvote ##Vote: @Sunwoo


What about prims is town leaning for you, and do you disagree with my take on his read on Makaze? if so, why?
As of this post I was still voting Refa. Let me outline the problems I have with this:
a)I was voting refa for very similar reasons to  what you're outlining in this post. What about that is safe, or are you going to say that your own reads are safe?
b)Not hard to point out but, whatever shinori has done has been NAI ya. I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya.  What specific things has Makaze done that make you think that he wouldn't benefit from them as scum?

c)The last paragraph in your post makes me think that you have enough of a gut feeling to actually vote any of the 3 mentioned. Now from what I remember of you I think you like feeling more concrete about your reads before your vote. But my issue isn't so much that the vote isn't dropped and more that...this feels like fence sitting here?

 

On 5/26/2024 at 10:39 AM, Bluedoom said:

Although as I'm posting this I realise that I'm taking offence to "playing safe" which I really don't think I'm doing. Which might be the crux of it.

Flipping me to "get info on sunwoo and refa" is bad anyway because I'm being voted as a chainsaw defence for refa(sunwoo is being ignored by the voters) so that's a pretty terrible argument to make.

On 5/26/2024 at 11:24 PM, Bluedoom said:

On 5/26/2024 at 5:53 PM, Snike said:

@Bluedoom Funny because I could say the same about my wagon, or well at least Prims could be read as either OMGUS for going after them or chainsawing the vote on you. But that's a bit dramatic and talking chainsaws before anyone has flipped is hasty. Why do you think I intentionally ignored the vote change over just having made the reads on impressions? That is again not very charitable framing, especially as it was the early morning hours when I posted.

Similarly, please explain to the class how your questions to Sunwoo/Boron when you flipped votes are meaningfully different from Refa's inquiries, which were, as you said,  "too many questions without a conclusion."

Vote stays put. Not sure I like Cam phrasing things that the Prims read on me makes sense when voiced. "Opportunistic" is another cynical framing and I already went into why my entrance isn't safe imo. How I'd frame it at the time would be "The first two players could conceivably have changed in style and tone" versus "I think there's a problem here." I've since strengthened my reads but I still think Marth is the most sus right now.

 

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On 5/26/2024 at 9:03 PM, Snike said:

 

I don't agree with most of the content in that listpost either? Weapons town is something you agree with me on as being wrong and that's the first thing out of the gate. Boron is a null-town lead which admittedly flips into a scumread. More on that into a bit.  Prims at  50/50 and Makaze at 50/50 are too noncommital,  Shinori's a idfk (townier now but mood at the time) and that leaves voting either you (hm) or Refa, where I've made my case regarding Refa already. I think it would've been ok not to vote, and again I want to reiterate this was preceded by having difficulty coming up with reads. Which, yes, everyone has issues with that. It reads as a wolf entrance with an obligatory vote. When pressure gets applied  + the supposed scumread flips over, it's abandon ship over to Boron, who I've already differentiated from Marth's posting.  One of the things pinging me in that post is the " I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya. " line where the two of us weren't really chatting at that point. By framing it as 'fakable' it's ascribing sinister intent rather than NAI, which is all the original line is.  I think the townie thing to do would've been to either keep pushing the flawed read (as a stubborn townie) or pressure vote nontalkers as it was still RVS. If we're spicy, follow the Weapons townread into a Prims angle.

 

Re:Boron vote: marth called it hypocritical after the fact, wasn't clear about that here. On top of that, that's exactly why I'm calling it out: you have to be very careful when you throw the h-word around, and I don't think Marth has cleared that threshold, simply put, so my current lens does not view that positively, especially paired with what I would say is question-loading/ mischaracterization of my posting from that slot. I want to clarify btw that when I said i felt worse after reading the vote shift, it was wholly towards the slot. The 'double down' is on my read, not on the lp.

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On 5/25/2024 at 11:47 PM, Bluedoom said:

so first, Unvote ##Vote: @Sunwoo


What about prims is town leaning for you, and do you disagree with my take on his read on Makaze? if so, why?
As of this post I was still voting Refa. Let me outline the problems I have with this:
a)I was voting refa for very similar reasons to  what you're outlining in this post. What about that is safe, or are you going to say that your own reads are safe?
b)Not hard to point out but, whatever shinori has done has been NAI ya. I think the points on Makaze/Shinori/BBM/Snike are fakeable ya.  What specific things has Makaze done that make you think that he wouldn't benefit from them as scum?

c)The last paragraph in your post makes me think that you have enough of a gut feeling to actually vote any of the 3 mentioned. Now from what I remember of you I think you like feeling more concrete about your reads before your vote. But my issue isn't so much that the vote isn't dropped and more that...this feels like fence sitting here? 

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So first of all, I don't even understand the defensiveness that comes from perceiving yourself to be getting "uncharitable interpretations" of your actions. Finding a list post on page 5 scummy because it was posted too early and painting it as scum trying to fake content when the straightforward explanation is town posting their thoughts  in thread because they felt to do so is a very uncharitable interpretation of actions. Part of being suspicious of someone is looking at their actions in a bad light for w/e reason, handwaving people's suspicions on you as uncharitable interpretations does you no favours.

Next, I'm addressing the bolded specifically:
I think if you read the bolded in my post I clearly have conclusions, this isn't even comparable to what I was accusing Refa of. When I made  the vote on Refa, I was saying that he had made a series of posts where he questioned people but didn't feel like he was coming up to a more firm read(be it town or scum), and asking questions without coming to a firm stance can be faked very easily as content. In my post that I've quoted I've already come to a stance where Boron is scum and then am pressuring her on it with questions, this is very different.  I'd like to mention that in point a) even though I don't outright use the word hypocritical its implied that I feel that way, and I do expand upon that when questioned by rapier. And I clearly think that the fence sitting is scummy there otherwise I don't vote her there, this idea that my vote on her isn't that different from what I'm accusing refa of doing is whack.

 

Bolded Italics: Well for starters if you have a scum read on someone then what was something that would be NAI starts getting coloured by your perception so it would be consistent with me scumreading her because...if I scumread her of course I'm going to read something that's NAI as sinister? But here's the kicker: I actually *back off* from this position on the second post in page 9 because I realise that that isn't a useful thing to talk about since most people would have a lot of  NAI reads early in the game; this runs in direct contradiction to you claiming that I'm trying to paint a sinister picture of her because I don't just randomly back off from my own point as mafia in this scenario!
 

On 5/28/2024 at 12:29 PM, Bluedoom said:

##Unvote I just saw the claim

I've been reading the thread and stuff and I am not interested in lynching rapier

What I've seen here is *a lot* of talking to your top scumread, Refa, and considering his questions, with the tone that he is town. You say flart out that you can't/don't have questions for Refa. When you go after Sunwoo, it's far more aggressive and accusatory to their face. Compare that to your treatment of Refa there is a major disconnect. You don't question Refa. You unvote rather than vote for Refa when Rapier is the top wagon. Your final vote, at the tail end of a wagon that you let others champion, is "I'm sorry if I'm wrong".

Here's the scenario I read: It was distancing, not bussing. You went after him early for bad reasons, expecting to be able to back off. You did back off. You got forced to commit in the end.

posting before this gets eaten

tldr on an ISO I can see how i could be wrong but there is no way im basing it on plausibility

[Shinori]

When I heard look up consigliere I assumed people were talking about like actual definition of it...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Consigliere.&oq=cons&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgAEEUYJxg7MggIABBFGCcYOzITCAEQLhiDARjHARixAxjRAxiABDIGCAIQRRg5MgcIAxAAGIAEMgYIBBBFGDwyBggFEEUYPDIGCAYQRRg8MgYIBxBFGEHSAQc4MjZqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I don't wanna assume lost wolf, I would assume it to be potentially bastard.

[BBM]

cam had a pretty forced vote onto weapons late in d1, in hindsight he was almost certainly just jumping on the refa counterwagon, implying they knew they were scumbuddies. most of us haven't played mafia in years and cam had like 5 posts. we misread him, it's not that complicated. we don't need to consider roles like lost wolf.

i know makaze's playstyle is annoying but suggesting we vig him for it is basically throwing the game. makaze can't force anyone else to do anything, he can just refuse to vote the way we want.

##Unvote, ##Vote: @Snike

I was originally going to wait for Snike to respond but I'm actually comfortable with this now after ISOing him again to look at the interactions with Cam. I don't know why you guys think that's townie for Snike because it looks like a classic d1 scum distancing to me. cam never voted snike and he also said his entire read on it was just sheeping Prims, so it wasn't like he was even advancing the case on Snike in any way or convincing other people. meanwhile going the other way, even though snike says that he dislikes cam's characterization of his actions and calls it a cynical framing, he basically just asks him to make content and then says it's good as soon as he does.

Also, when Snike posted the PBP analysis he'd done overnight, I was originally like "wow so much effort" but if you go and actually read it, it basically just ends in a lot of neutral reads with a slight scumlean on rapier and slight townlean on percy. ultimately it's very much size over substance

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

11 minutes ago, Shinori said:

When I heard look up consigliere I assumed people were talking about like actual definition of it...

https://www.google.com/search?q=Consigliere.&oq=cons&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqCAgAEEUYJxg7MggIABBFGCcYOzITCAEQLhiDARjHARixAxjRAxiABDIGCAIQRRg5MgcIAxAAGIAEMgYIBBBFGDwyBggFEEUYPDIGCAYQRRg8MgYIBxBFGEHSAQc4MjZqMGo3qAIAsAIA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

I don't wanna assume lost wolf, I would assume it to be potentially bastard.

Tbh I'm kind of at the point where if it's not lost wolf I'd consider it bastard 😕

I can reaaaaaallly see mods being like "I've always wanted to use this role in an SF game, but we never got the chance. Fuck it let's just do it." I mean honestly is it that outside the realm of SF role madness? It's not like we play super srs purist mafia setups anyway

[Shinori]

I can see it being something that we WOULD run on SF, however it is a mechanic that I think would be non-standard and either semi-bastard at a minimum or at LEAST experimental

This game is stated non-bastard and whenever we played on SF before if there were experimental mechanics, we stated it in the opening.

[Sunwoo]

5 minutes ago, BBM said:

i know makaze's playstyle is annoying but suggesting we vig him for it is basically throwing the game. makaze can't force anyone else to do anything, he can just refuse to vote the way we want.

At this point in the game we have 2 scum already down, so a N2 vig shot on Makaze wouldn't be throwing the game. (Any later than N2 though ... yeah, probably.)

Also, a single stubborn townie can absolutely fuck things up later in the game. Imagine a hypothetical scenario where we are in MYLO/LYLO and Makaze is one of the townies left. What happens if scum is someone Makaze thinks is town, and what if (one of) the remaining town is someone he thinks is scum, like Marth? Can we have faith that he won't just vote Marth no questions asked because he's so confident and refuses to reconsider?

This scenario gets even riskier if after N2 there are more than 1 scum still present in the game, or if multiple townies aren't able to make deadline and aren't available to switch votes as needed.

[Makaze]

Just now, Sunwoo said:

At this point in the game we have 2 scum already down, so a N2 vig shot on Makaze wouldn't be throwing the game. (Any later than N2 though ... yeah, probably.)

Also, a single stubborn townie can absolutely fuck things up later in the game. Imagine a hypothetical scenario where we are in MYLO/LYLO and Makaze is one of the townies left. What happens if scum is someone Makaze thinks is town, and what if (one of) the remaining town is someone he thinks is scum, like Marth? Can we have faith that he won't just vote Marth no questions asked because he's so confident and refuses to reconsider?

This scenario gets even riskier if after N2 there are more than 1 scum still present in the game, or if multiple townies aren't able to make deadline and aren't available to switch votes as needed.

A vig on one of the people you think could pocket me in endgame would make more sense than intentionally shooting a findable town