Vigilante Mafia Game Thread - Game Over, LoVE wins!

[CT075]

okay that's pretty convincing LOL i didn't even notice

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

1 hour ago, CT075 said:

yeah pretty much entirely POE

honestly I would POE myself if not yeah

Why does a single line from Boron outweigh the rest of her play so far? For that matter what is your opinion on the rest of her play so far? If not for PoE would you be town/scumreading me/Jamie? What thoughts have you had on our slots throughout the course of the game?

[Sunwoo]

2 hours ago, Bartozio said:

@WeaponsofMassConstruction @Sunwoo While you guys are busy with your mexican stand of, what are your thoughts on DF jumping on the Marth wagon, and then leaving right after?

That was certainly a thing.

Realtalk, I'm conflicted about this. On the one hand, it looks bad since Marth flipped scum. On the other hand, it's not impossible that he ... is still trying to grasp how the game's played and stuff. He unvoted after Marth claimed and said that bandwagoning feels bad, so it might be that he's not used to aggressively going after people even in a game.

Like, it's not great. But because I can also see why he'd do this as town, I'm not quite as interested in looking here yet. There are some other slots I'd like to poke at first.

Bartozio looks better, he's being more active and trying to get answers. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm town reading him, but I'm willing to chalk up D1 to a bad day.

##Unvote

##Vote: @beeboat

Okay, so they posted. But the first one is basically asking a question that could've been explained by reading the OP, and the second was just "my bad". There's no reason they couldn't have added some initial thoughts to either of those posts. And even if they didn't have the best grasp on things, it's been over a day since D2 started and this game only has like 15 pages. It's absolutely possible for them to have made at least one run of the thread.

Also, uh, hate to bring this up again but we have less than 24 hours left and these wagons are fucking all over the place. Let's consider picking some targets for consolidation and assume that a hypothetical vig isn't going to save us from Inactives.

[JamieIsBored]

3 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Okay, so they posted. But the first one is basically asking a question that could've been explained by reading the OP, and the second was just "my bad". There's no reason they couldn't have added some initial thoughts to either of those posts. And even if they didn't have the best grasp on things, it's been over a day since D2 started and this game only has like 15 pages. It's absolutely possible for them to have made at least one run of the thread.

Also, uh, hate to bring this up again but we have less than 24 hours left and these wagons are fucking all over the place. Let's consider picking some targets for consolidation and assume that a hypothetical vig isn't going to save us from Inactives.

A reminder that beeboat may be struggling with post restrictions, it looks like they still have the only 2 posts per day role that I had (the wave icon on the bottom left of their picture). 

Completely agree on bolded. If no one wants to join me on DefyingFates then I'll move across.

[Sunwoo]

2 minutes ago, JamieIsBored said:

A reminder that beeboat may be struggling with post restrictions, it looks like they still have the only 2 posts per day role that I had (the wave icon on the bottom left of their picture). 

Yeah, I'm trying not to hold the post count against them because I don't know if they had the restriction lifted. But it's more the quality of those posts. If you can only make two posts in a given time period, all the more reason to try to get as many thoughts out as you can. Also, their question is just kinda nothing. At worst you're asking a question that contributes nothing that we already know the answer to; at best it suggests you didn't read the OP (which isn't really amazing).

[Sunwoo]

Hi Prims

[Eurykins]

I hate getting out of work late, but I should be around for the most of the evening with it being Friday, with weekend off for me. Will be checking out the thread since I wasn't free at lunch to do so much today and haven't been able to post since last night. Brain is mush from work, will need some time to process.

[Percivalé]

yeah I gotta say it's pretty bad beeboat's first posts coming in were gamespec oneliners. what do you guys think about aster? no one mentioned her at all after I voted her

[Sunwoo]

8 minutes ago, Percivalé said:

yeah I gotta say it's pretty bad beeboat's first posts coming in were gamespec oneliners. what do you guys think about aster? no one mentioned her at all after I voted her

Honestly I have no idea what to think of Aster >_>

Both Aster and Fates just seem like very confused new players, but that doesn't stop them from being scum. This is probably on me for aggressively looking around for people to fill BBM's game lol.

I guess I'd rather have them either claimed or flipped before we end up in LYLO, but I'd rather lynch beeboat's slot today.

[Percivalé]

I think aster is more likely to flip scum than DF, I've been reading DF town & the marth unvote at end of d1 read like new player town afraid of being wrong . sry for the twitterposts BTW this is the most reliable way I can post content

[Sunwoo]

Hey at least you're posting content

If beeboat doesn't amaze us within the next ~19 hours of D2, would you be willing to consolidate on that slot for today? I acknowledge your Aster scum read, it's just that I'm a bit more confident about bee's slot.

Unfortunately, I don't think either of Aster or bee are going to give us too many associative reads.

[Percivalé]

oh yeah I'll consolidate on bee if he's the elim today, my post before last was kinda meant to imply that I would but I didn't say it directly 

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Not sure about Aster, felt pretty good about them yesterday, but intrigued that you feel that strongly about the slot. Priority beeboy though

##Vote: @beeboat

[Sunwoo]

Weapons, I'm still interested in why you think Cam is scum. Percivale, I think you mentioned suspecting Cam earlier as well? Why do you guys think Cam is scum?

[Percivalé]

4 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

Weapons, I'm still interested in why you think Cam is scum. Percivale, I think you mentioned suspecting Cam earlier as well? Why do you guys think Cam is scum?

I only mentioned I wasn't too bothered by cam's vote on you, I'm not sure how I feel about him personally 

[Sunwoo]

3 minutes ago, Percivalé said:

I only mentioned I wasn't too bothered by cam's vote on you, I'm not sure how I feel about him personally 

Oh, my bad then.

My meta on Cam is pretty bad and I feel like his play in the revival game isn't too indicative of his general scum meta anyway. But it still feels like he's trying to contribute more and give thoughts on stuff. So he's not really on my priority list.

Granted, he's not a hard townread like you and Eury, but I can't say I'm scum reading him.

Also, I would like to hear from Elie at some point. He looked pretty good in D1 (even if the majority of his content was walling off against Eury), but after acknowledging his read on Marth had been wrong, he's disappeared into the ether. He could just be busy, but I would like him to post thoughts before D2 ends.

[Aster]

On 7/18/2024 at 11:39 PM, Aster said:

(Huzzah, post limits are no longer an obstacle! Hopefully I can be more active in the game now!)

I was promptly proven wrong, I'm very sorry. 😢

13 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

##Vote: @CT075

You may have answered this already in the forum, but just curious, why Cam? I've been largely getting null readings from them thus far so I'm not sure what in particular they're doing is suspicious.

12 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I've had to read back multiple times and start taking notes because I'm not retaining information very well 

##Vote: @Aster

my aforementioned theory was aster is scum, have been keeping in mind she's new to mafia but her posts especially recently feel like scum expressing town sentiment for town points which I think new scum can be prone to doing. (theory 1.1 is that she's scum with an inactive partner who hasn't been around to coach her/give her much advice.) do I believe she's marth's scumbuddy is another beast but I will note this early interaction between them which would be way easy enough to fake as scumbuddies. I noticed she addressed her passive play because that was another thing on my radar, I think the explanation for it is fine (being used to amogus wherein playing passively is the meta) but in that case she's playing to what she thinks is expected of her as town either way. for that reason the passiveness itself is probably NAI but I'm always going to eye people who delay voting anybody (especially when they openly have scumreads on ppl but don't vote them, afaik that doesn't really apply here though). the reluctance always reads like scum worried about taking chances, sticking out, committing to their reads etc.

additionally if aster has played enough amongus in the past to be accustomed to a certain playstyle then it's not impossible she knows how to fake town play as scum

this post aside from playstyle context is kinda empty, waffles on some guys (shinori and bart), mostly piggy backs off of the opinions of other people. the piggyback thing is something aster's been doing a lot. I would like to see more reads/opinions from her that aren't directly echoed off other players. I think the meatiest content from her has been the paragraph in this post speculating j00's martyr target.

(theory 1.2 is that aster is scum with bart but neither have flipped so this one's whatever. but I noted two instances aster's said "bart did something that made me kinda sus but on the other hand it's probably nothing.")

a few ppl brought up DF's vote on me & my long answer to that is that the vote didn't bother me because I assumed it was RVS+getting a feel for how the game works & the reason he stated later for the vote was fine

cam boron vote doesn't bother me too much but that might change depending. boron's question was kinda weird but right now I don't think she's scum. the shinori vote by bart at end of d1 was bad though and if he ends up being the elim today I'll consolidate

I'm going to re-read jamie/DF/elie/eury after I sleep, aside from my personal bias (eury playing to her town meta) I haven't been following them very well lol. if beeboy doesn't post today grace slot maybe probably should be vigged or something

Oh, I'm very sorry about all that. I wanted to see what clues could be found re: j00 and got a little bit carried away (Sunwoo can testify that I tend to ramble once I get caught up on something), and similarly I'm not really having the best time getting reads right now and am genuinely nervous about starting a wagon on someone who turns out to be innocent, so that's why I've been largely just looking at other people's judgement calls so far and seeing if they hold water.

7 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Gun to my head, Jamie jumps out for not having too memorable reads while seemingly being pretty experienced and being around. Experienced I'm basing on how he talks about game mechanics btw. That's hardly a homerun scum read though, considering everyone struggles for reads and a lot of other communities seem to be a bit slower with getting the ball rolling from what I remember of other visitors in the past.

Yeah, I don't know, I think Jaime seems pretty chill and hasn't really been doing anything like herding us or what not. In general this game has had a lot of difficult reads on people, and as someone else said, even looking back the fact that we voted out Marth and he turned out to be scum night one was just really good luck on our part given how little information we have. Heck, what little information we still have since so far the votes seem widely scattered and we keep going back and forth on who we think is scum and who isn't. Basically I don't think we can scumread them for having a hard time getting their footing when everyone's been doing that.

6 hours ago, Bartozio said:

what are your thoughts on DF jumping on the Marth wagon, and then leaving right after?

Largely agree that DF likely was just unsure of where to place his vote and got nervous in case Marth was innocent.  It's intimidating to vote for someone in case they might be clean, so I don't fault them for hopping off the wagon. Again, I don't think any of us other than whoever else was on red team would've known that Marth was scum for sure and we were mostly just firing in the dark.

[Sunwoo]

All right, we're slowly running out of time and I have no idea who's even going to be around on phase end.

I want everyone to post their top 2-3 scum reads, who you'd be willing to consolidate on if your biggest scum reads aren't an option, and place a vote. (Don't hammer early though.)

Bee is my current top scum read, due to Grace's slot being iffy and bee's own content being nonexistent.
Originally felt good about Elie, but his very extended absence is making me wary of him. Could potentially be Marth's scum buddy who lost motivation now that he doesn't have a partner?

Eury who is scum
Weapons, why is Cam scum
Bartozio, is Jamie scum or not

Don't know how to read Aster or Fates, so I'll take Percy's word on both of them for now until I can get any solid reads of my own. (Percy generally has good gut vibes.)

[Aster]

Well, okay:

My current main suspicion is a little bit on Weapons, actually. I think it's strange how they didn't elaborate on why they were voting for Cam and then just switched onto the Bee bandwagon. However, I do wanna hear their reasons before placing a clear vote on them. I don't have a great read on anyone else and am wary of voting for Bee and Elie just by virtue of how little we do know. There is something that still bugs me about Bart's vote on Shinori but I feel like he's presented much better vibes in this last day so that's the only shred of suspicion I have on him so I'm just tentatively keeping an eye on him.

[DefyingFates]

9 hours ago, JamieIsBored said:

DefyingFates voted and then unvoted Bluedoom.

Is this why you voted for me?

1 hour ago, Aster said:

My current main suspicion is a little bit on Weapons, actually. I think it's strange how they didn't elaborate on why they were voting for Cam and then just switched onto the Bee bandwagon. However, I do wanna hear their reasons before placing a clear vote on them. I don't have a great read on anyone else and am wary of voting for Bee and Elie just by virtue of how little we do know. There is something that still bugs me about Bart's vote on Shinori but I feel like he's presented much better vibes in this last day so that's the only shred of suspicion I have on him so I'm just tentatively keeping an eye on him.

I'm in the same boat. I'm going to go through D1 again when I have time, hopefully in the next few hours.

[Bartozio]

@CT075 @JamieIsBored Can you guys explain to me why DF hopping on and off the Marth wagon the way he did is scummy?

I'm personally having some issue wrapping my head around it, but I feel like it's more likely to come from town? Scum would make the vote assuming they're either voting their buddy or town, so they'd be less likely to go back on it I feel. (Since it's multiball scum!DF could be unsure whether Marth's scum I guess, but that argument holds the same for town!DF).

[Eurykins]

Apparently food + being tired from work means I am liable to napping. I am alive again, sorry for delay.

21 hours ago, CT075 said:

cleanup on some things that i really should have addressed before. I am currently (re)reading Bartozio and the cases thereon (and so I won't be saying much about that wagon in this post). I can't promise my full thoughts until I'm no longer in-transit but please feel free to beat me up if I forget again

It's like, strictly true that Eury was "one of the top wagons" at EoD1 but does anyone actually think that she was a viable wagon? It never made it over three votes and I think it would have been a pretty hard sell what with Boron, j00 and Marth (I swear there were others, but I couldn't find them so maybe I hallucinated that) all stating that they thought Eury was town. Like yeah Marth was scum but a) multiball and b) we didn't know that at the time, so it's still relevant in a "could someone realistically have swung a lynch".

I am personally still fairly sussed out by Eury; she is no longer vote-sitting on the noob but the thought that I voiced here is living rent-free in my head. I'll decide whether to vote over it in my next post

fuck it, i keep promising to talk more and then not following up, so money where my mouth is it's still early in the day ##vote: @Eurykins

I don't actually know. It was a toss up honestly between the ones who were stating Bluedoom as being town reads vs people who saw me as town reads vs Bartozio cases/votes (Shinori himself, but of the 4 of us, I'd say he was probably read the BEST by most of the players out of those voted near end of D1)? Bluedoom's wagon had the most push without question for the most, if not all of D1, but I have seen wagons snap from one person to others in the last minutes of a day phase based on claims, etc. So I don't expect a wagon to necessary remain as the ONLY viable wagon until the day phase ends and a majority/hammer occurs to end the day phase. There were also votes being made/pulled off near the end of the day phase, which led me to believe honestly anyone between Myself/Bluedoom/Bart were fair game for D1. And with given Shinori's vote powers (as Mayor), it had the potential to be even more volatile due to the differences in casing/opinions on each of the wagons presented.

20 hours ago, CT075 said:

also going to say ahead-of-time that I'm not going to engage with any of the meta arguments because it's lowkey kind of impossible to argue against. I don't even think that it's necessarily invalid to scumread someone over it, but I don't even know how Bart could self-defend against a meta argument

I think this is a fair point to keep in mind, but I will say meta reads unfortunately exist for a reason, as people are creatures of habits. For as much as we'd like to say "I certainly don't act this way as scum/town", there are things that can bleed out more frequently than not when town/scum roles come into play. It doesn't mean it should be the full basis of the reads on players to be sure, especially given that this is a game that has people who both know and don't know others from past games.

*Me having a pea brain and being away for years of not playing Mafia forum games also means my "Meta reads" are absolute garbage and uesless, so I take it with a heavy grain of salt and it's not a tool the other players can really take much investment into either.

17 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

##Vote: @CT075

Huh? (Did I miss a post regarding the reason behind this post or? Cause I was checking ahead of the post I'd made the other night, and didn't recall seeing something for this.) I may have asked this in the other post Thursday night, but can you clarify the reason for this? @WeaponsofMassConstruction

16 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I've had to read back multiple times and start taking notes because I'm not retaining information very well 

##Vote: @Aster

my aforementioned theory was aster is scum, have been keeping in mind she's new to mafia but her posts especially recently feel like scum expressing town sentiment for town points which I think new scum can be prone to doing. (theory 1.1 is that she's scum with an inactive partner who hasn't been around to coach her/give her much advice.) do I believe she's marth's scumbuddy is another beast but I will note this early interaction between them which would be way easy enough to fake as scumbuddies. I noticed she addressed her passive play because that was another thing on my radar, I think the explanation for it is fine (being used to amogus wherein playing passively is the meta) but in that case she's playing to what she thinks is expected of her as town either way. for that reason the passiveness itself is probably NAI but I'm always going to eye people who delay voting anybody (especially when they openly have scumreads on ppl but don't vote them, afaik that doesn't really apply here though). the reluctance always reads like scum worried about taking chances, sticking out, committing to their reads etc.

additionally if aster has played enough amongus in the past to be accustomed to a certain playstyle then it's not impossible she knows how to fake town play as scum

this post aside from playstyle context is kinda empty, waffles on some guys (shinori and bart), mostly piggy backs off of the opinions of other people. the piggyback thing is something aster's been doing a lot. I would like to see more reads/opinions from her that aren't directly echoed off other players. I think the meatiest content from her has been the paragraph in this post speculating j00's martyr target.

(theory 1.2 is that aster is scum with bart but neither have flipped so this one's whatever. but I noted two instances aster's said "bart did something that made me kinda sus but on the other hand it's probably nothing.")

a few ppl brought up DF's vote on me & my long answer to that is that the vote didn't bother me because I assumed it was RVS+getting a feel for how the game works & the reason he stated later for the vote was fine

cam boron vote doesn't bother me too much but that might change depending. boron's question was kinda weird but right now I don't think she's scum. the shinori vote by bart at end of d1 was bad though and if he ends up being the elim today I'll consolidate

I'm going to re-read jamie/DF/elie/eury after I sleep, aside from my personal bias (eury playing to her town meta) I haven't been following them very well lol. if beeboy doesn't post today grace slot maybe probably should be vigged or something

Regarding the Bolded: I can understand the lack of commitment to the vote, in either not pressuring or sticking to case concerns. However, we've also had issues with people making votes with little to no casing, as well as other inactive slots that have yet to partake in much conversation/contribution to the scum hunting. DF is an example, along with recent issues with Grace's slot (Beeboy now?) as well, and there was the issue beforehand (confirmed by the host) regarding post limits that could have contributed to less activity as a result. (Side note: Quantity/less posts would not excuse having empty posts, but depending on how they play, this could have impacts. Some prefer multiple small posts, vs longer posts and that could easily disrupt their ability to play "normally" in the game, in any caliber/alignment.) 

Does Cam's vote feel off for any specific reason at the time it was made? Boron/Sunwoo's question: regarding the j00 target or something else? Was not sure what question this was referring to specifically, sorry.
Why do you think he chose Shinori to vote of all people, when I don't consider Shinori to have been a viable target to lynch D1 since I'm pretty sure the majority of players felt decent about his slot (He was prominent, very active, and did well to contribute and brought others into the conversations/discussions.)?

15 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Imagine being wrong about all three flips this night. Couldn't be me.... I'm going to have to reevaluate a lot of things today...

For starters about the night kills: I'd guess J00 redirected the shot to herself and Shinori was shot because mafia wanted to avoid being blocked by a doc. I also don't think there's much to gain from debating this too much though, since even if mafia actually decided to shoot J00, it doesn't tell us too much (and we won't know for sure either way).

@Sunwoo I'm not going to defend my play so far, because I'm not too proud of it anyway. I do want to ask you one thing though.
Looking at your posts, I see you're mostly confused about why town!me would ever play like this. The main thing I want to ask: Do you think my play actually does make sense as scum? If so, why?

@Eurykins I'm going to dig up your wall where you asked me a bunch of questions, but as for why I'm sheeping people claiming this is your town meta: My read on you at the time Blue said this really wasn't that strong. Sure, gun to my head I would have said scum, but if people who know you a lot better than I do claim this is your town meta and you sound very different as scum I'm willing to take their word for it. If it was just Blue, it would be one thing, but at this point 4 people have said as much (2 when I made that reads post). If I'm never going to listen to other peoples input, how can I expect them to listen to me?

I'm going to reread things now, but I wanted to get those out of the way.

Am... I the only one confused by the bolded notion? Is the bolded implying that Mafia thought Shinori WAS the doc, and thus were trying to remove a protection role? Or that he was not a confident townread for players, therefore not on high priority to be protected for the night phase (easy target)? Because this actually confuses me, because I think a LOT of us felt decent about Shinori's slot and even commented that his death was far more "expected" (in terms of big Mafia target priority) than j00 was? (Until the end of D1, I don't recall anyone making a prominent case on him, or even placing a serious vote on him? I may have to double check the voting yesterday, but nothing massive sticks out at all in my memory atm). I agree that debating on j00 (whether j00 died protecting someone vs being the actual night kill) doesn't really help us any, but the former comment sounds really odd revolving Shinori.

So my question regarding the bolded: Is the consideration still based purely on "town meta" from the other players, or has anything changed since then? Because I would much prefer to hear what you have to say and either be able to clarify/respond to any concerns, vs. you feeling OBLIGATED to sheep for the sake of "listening to other's inputs". You can agree to disagree, and still have an opinion, even if it's not as strong or prominent as theirs, and it would seem far more genuine of a take than just taking it at face value imo. Might just me having a different PoV on it (maybe difference of approaching gameplay?).

15 hours ago, Percivalé said:

RE: grace slot, I wasn't worried about her play seeming less motivated because she doesn't enjoy playing mafia too much recently. wouldn't be surprised if the slot is scum though

Serious(ish) question: If they weren't motivated/enjoying playing Mafia, was there a reason for them to join in the start? It doesn't quite make sense to me for them to partake in Mafia if it wasn't a game they enjoyed/wanted to be in to begin with. Maybe something else IRL/otherwise could have happened, but it's supposed to be a GAME enjoyed by the players, not something someone should be SUBJECTED to when they don't want to or don't enjoy it. 😕 Like it makes me a bit meh, and also not fun when a player opts to just quit or not participate when they opted to sign up for something, because it feels like this kills the experience for a lot of the other players who are trying to enjoy it, either as their very first game, or coming back from years of not playing. 

Also, it ends up making a slot that we now know little to nothing about/from, and it's going to just harm us moving forward if there's no improvement from it.

That aside, would town!Grace opt to do this regardless (due to lack of motivation/interest), or is this moreso the scum coasting/inactivity that's being made worse by the disinterest? 

15 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Okay, let me give this another shot.

(1) So my understanding is that I should look out for people overly friendly with one another for signs of Mafia, so right now my eye's on Bart. Not only were Bart and Marth the only ones to vote for Shinori who was proven town, Marth was proven to be mafia.

We know why Grace didn't talk much: (2) she was sick, so I don't think it's fair to say her inactivity was due to her being mafia or anything. I don't want to put Aster on blast because they're new (though they've acclimated much faster than I have).

(3) Percivale was quick to forgive me voting for him which I think points to him being confident he could argue his way out of trouble if votes piled up, i.e. he's town. Similarly, a bunch of people are saying you're in "town" mode and I feel mafia would be more focused in their questioning compared to you who's been questioning everyone. Sunwoo feels like they've been doing the same thing to a lesser extent so I want to say your two are town too.

Apart from the above and myself, the ones who haven't said much are Weapons and Jamie I think? (4) So I'm curious about those two right now. On the other hand Jamie is one of the people who pinged me while I was away and I'm guessing mafia would have let me rack up a bad reputation in front of everyone else so I'd be prime lynching fodder on D2+.

So to sum it up, I'm suspicious of Bart and Weapons and unsure of the rest? The above assessment is probably full of rookie mistakes and oversights though, it turns out I'm worse at reading people than I thought.

Bolded (1): yes and no. I would state that interactions can be based on more than just "Friendly" interactions. Quite frankly, some can be seen as the opposite.
I believe some of the players even stated the "Eury/Elieson" spat in D1 to fall under those considerations- a polar opposite interaction that was designed to create "distance" or otherwise seemed like some weird farce of an interaction between him and I. So not all interactions/associations HAVE to be positive ones, especially since scum can and often do have various reasons for saying/doing things between themselves and their partners. 

Bolded (2): Being sick is one thing, sure. However, D1 was lengthened quite a bit, and even those of us who had work or other things going on IRL managed to be present to some extent- some more than others. In addition, you and Aster both had issues (and I think Grace's sub may have the same issue? Not sure?) regarding POSTING LIMITS that could have likewise impacted performance, which was confirmed by BBM. There was also Cam with the train rides, and other people having other situations.

WITH THIS IN MIND: At what point is absence seen as acceptable, verses having the intentions of not contributing, and overall showing zero interest in partaking in the town scumhunting within this game? How else should the rest of the player base be expected to be left wanting, and to not expect them to show signs of distrust for the player slot, especially with the sub not making it seem any better at this point? Why should the others be convinced that this slot should be trusted, over the other players who have brought things to the table at this point? Would you feel SAFE as TOWN to have this sort of slot in the final days?

Also, what is your opinion on Aster? You mention not wanting to "put them on blast"- what is concerning you about them, and why dangle that comment and then refuse to state the thoughts/reads? 

Bolded (3): IMO, this is a terrible take on someone disregarding a vote on them ("forgiving it") and the fact that this implies a town read on them as a result is questionable. I understand that the majority of players in this game regard Percy's slot in a town light- this is not an issue in itself. However, your logic as to WHY they are a townread makes no sense at all to me. 

Percy literally stated: "my long answer to that is that the vote didn't bother me because I assumed it was RVS+getting a feel for how the game works & the reason he stated later for the vote was fine". What this tells me is that they took your vote as a NON-SERIOUS/RVS vote, meaning that your vote on them had little to no meaningful weight behind it nor was there EVER (to my knowledge) any form of wagon that was ever expressed towards Percy at all since D1. 

This means there's basically zero to "forgive", because there was never a case for Percy to begin with. Not an actual one and there was never a threat for them to be even put on the consolidation/lynch option for the end of the day phase.

So where does the logic of the "Confidence" and anything else come into play here? Why does this contribute at ALL to any form of townread on Percy's slot, regardless of the fact of how any of the other players are viewing the slot? What this screams to me is a VERY ROUNDABOUT WAY to sheep Percy's townread from the other players, and attempts to pass it as your own. 

Bolded (4): So you mention Bart, due to Bluedoom flip/association from D1, and then mention Weapons/Jamie as being "Curious" about them.  But then in the later bolded part, you list suspicion on Bart/Weapons and then state "unsure of the rest"? Where is the curiosity/questions from Weapons/Jamie? Is the fact that "Jamie pinged you"  (assuming in a post) imply that he had TOWN intentions? (ALSO I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THE PING YOU MEAN = JAMIE'S POST IN WHICH HE VOTED YOU? I didn't see another post that had an @DefyingFates in it outside of his VOTE post when reading.) 

I am struggling to find the logic within your reads on the other players, when there's so much that seems off. Can you please clarify the above notions/questions?

14 hours ago, Percivalé said:

weapons has been falling under the radar a little bit but the wordless cam vote strikes me as something he'd do as town

Whether he'd do it as town or not, is it a good vote? If so/not, why?

14 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

everyone's falling under the radar tbh

Can agree.

14 hours ago, Percivalé said:

just that it aligns with his playstyle but this is a meta argument so you don't have to take any stock in it

Do you agree with Weapon's vote?

11 hours ago, Bartozio said:

@Sunwoo That's fair.

Having said that, I'm honestly coming up empty here. My read on Bluedoom last phase is that he tried to come in defending me and Eury for easy towncred, then got demotivated when the wagons at EoD where himself and those two people.

Him being demotivated made me suspect DF for voting there as the number 5, as I could very much see a demotivated Blue tell him to do that for some towncred. The problem with that theory though is DF unvoted soon after, which kind of wastes any cred he might have gotten out of it.

Speaking of votes, you'd think there were at least some easy townreads to get from Blue's wagon, but unfortunately not really. Imo, J00, Percy and Eury are the people who pushed it to a serious wagon, which gives them major towncreds. Sadly, one of them is dead and I was townreading Percy and Eury before the flip anyway.

Weapons did keep his vote on Blue literally since RVS (which is kind of wild), but I can also see him vs Blue being an attempt at distancing that kind of went horribly wrong when Blue suddenly got a good amount of votes and Weapons felt stuck.
For the record, that's not me saying I'm scumreading Weapons for this, just that I'm not hard townreading him for voting Blue early. Upon a reread his posts feel natural enough and voting scum all day is hardly a bad thing.

Jamie and Cam just voted Blue to make a lynch happen. Which is good play, but it's good play as either alignment.

The fact that DF voted, and then unvoted Bluedoom, who flipped as scum: Do you think that, had DF been Bluedoom's partner, they would have been told to stay on the wagon, despite the fact that DF's vote itself on Bluedoom was made poorly to begin with? And that the vote removal detracts from any form of association between the two players? 

As for Weapon's vote: Does this make his vote any less meaningful than the actual votes that came later based on casework? Would Weapons (if he was Bluedoom's partner) have really stuck with the wagon for the entire phase, rather than work towards a counter-wagon before it got serious on him? I know that Bluedoom himself was inactive to the point of being prodded by BBM, so could this caused a miscommunication between them or no? I find it difficult to believe an experienced player would continue to bus his partner to that extent, when there were other options available at the time (Myself, Bart, and technically Shinori was voted, but I don't realistically see him as being remotely plausible D1)?

If the bolded above is to be taken at face value, where does this leave any votes that were not on Bluedoom's wagon at the end of D1?

11 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Six people voted for him, maybe some of them were the Blue mafia teaming up?

With the fact that the game is split into 3 parties (Town vs 2 Different scum teams/win cons), it's not unrealistic that one scum team can contribute to another one's wagon, especially if they are likely NOT informed of who the other scum team is. (They share different win cons/goals, so they are playing against each other as much as they are against town. The only difference I would see is that scum would attempt to use their kills to reduce townside count first and foremost [Assuming 1 kill per night per faction = 2 kills each night phase so long as both scum teams exist], but if they don't know who is who outside of their partners, then they won't know how people flip until lynches/kills happen.)

However, continuing to speculate numbers/the structure of the game doesn't bring much consideration to the table, until we have a way to confirm the removal of at least one of the scum teams (in which case, it would be assumed that only 1 night kill could occur, heavily crippling their offensive power).  

11 hours ago, Bartozio said:

One of the main reasons as for why I'm focusing on Marth's interactions is because nothing is jumping out too hard on other fronts for me.

Gun to my head, Jamie jumps out for not having too memorable reads while seemingly being pretty experienced and being around. Experienced I'm basing on how he talks about game mechanics btw. That's hardly a homerun scum read though, considering everyone struggles for reads and a lot of other communities seem to be a bit slower with getting the ball rolling from what I remember of other visitors in the past.

So, the main thing I've seen is that, with Jamie being new (experienced player or not), I don't think they've played many games on SF/with the players here (anyone is free to correct me on this point, I know it's the first game for me with 'em). So things like META, which has driven a good portion of reads/gut impressions on a lot of players with cases, are null and void at this point. Is there something more you feel that should have been expected from him as a player by this point, based on the "experience"? Does it seem unnatural to the point of "lack of obvious effort/scumhunting" or something else that would indicate scum intent? 

10 hours ago, DefyingFates said:

Honestly? I just voted for him because everyone else seemed confident about voting for him, but when I looked back I couldn't see any reason why he was so suspicious so I took the vote back.

I assume this is regarding the vote on BLUEDOOM? 

The vote removal occurred at the time that Bluedoom CLAIMED, if I recall correctly. This was the post showing the unvoting:

On 7/17/2024 at 2:38 PM, DefyingFates said:

##Unvote: @Bluedoom

Turns out bandwagoning feels bad in real life and in a virtual one, sorry Blue.

This says nothing about "I don't find Bluedoom so suspicious anymore" or any justification for backing off of his wagon.

In addition, it was even stated MULTIPLE TIMES in the thread that the claim he made was NOT AI (Alignment Indicative), meaning that his claim did NOT do much to change the stance of the cases/opinions the other players had.
And then, as we all can see now, he FLIPPED SCUM.

Posts after that, before the day concluded, INCLUDED NOTHING OF WHY YOU UNVOTED. And you offered no counter vote/counter wagon of interest, and gave nothing in terms of reaching a consolidation in any regard for D1 lynch.

(As a side note, Jamie and Cam voted Bluedoom as you had UNVOTED, because they understood that, as stated above by Bart: Jamie and Cam just voted Blue to make a lynch happen. Which is good play, but it's good play as either alignment.)  

None of this gives me townsided vibes at ALL. Removal of vote pressure/lynch consolidation (that COULD have resulted in a NO LYNCH, which is extremely harmful for town, as lynches are the PRIMARY WEAPON to remove scum from the game), no cases as of end of D1, and jumping off of a wagon that flipped SCUM- all of this screams anti-town and I cannot see townsided intent with any of this. 

9 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Alright half the phase is up and beeboy still hasn’t shown. The way the game is going I think we’re very likely to consolidate here. Does anyone have any serious objections to lynching the slot?

@CT075 can you summarize your scumreads so far this game?

Viewing the prior posts and concerns, I am willing to consolidate if it can help us weed out the iffy slots. However, I am concerned that minimal/inactive slots are gonna make it even harder to pull associations with said slots, but we don't have much else we can do if they don't step up to the plate to bat.

9 hours ago, beeboat said:

In regards to this site what are the odds both kills were preformed by Mafia?  I'd assume near 0% but I just want to make sure.

????

9 hours ago, beeboat said:

oh my bad didn't notice.

These were the first posts I saw regarding the Grace's sub. I can see why no one was impressed thus far.

9 hours ago, JamieIsBored said:

Ah fair, I'm kinda awkward when I join new forums so bolded is something said about my early games on new sites I join (prolly doesn't help that my first couple forum mafia were all role-solvey). I disagree with italiced though, my Bluedoom read was made clear before most jumped on the wagon, I called the role out first (admittedly a more mechanical thing) and I don't particularly feel that I've really been parroting. 

Is it just POE on me and Weapons? Or are there are other reasons?

No objections, but seeing as they've just turned up I'd like to hear their thoughts on the game at least. 

Current thought process is still wanting to stick to my earlier reads list and going for one of Bartozio, Aster, DefyingFates or Beeboy today. Highly likely that one of them is the other RAT member. I feel like in multiball bussing is less common so votals kinda corroborate this too with all of these people not voting Bluedoom. 

Current theory is that it's more likely to be Aster/DefyingFates/Beeboy, this is mainly because of how unmotivated Bluedoom seemed while they were about to be lynched which could suggest more inactive partners that wouldn't be able to pull another wagon up.

I want to see Beeboy's thoughts and I'm not fond of the voting and unvoting of a known scum so ##Vote: @DefyingFates 

Bart was mentioned in the first section, but then was dropped in the "Current theory" section- is there a reason for him not fitting in as well as the others? Do you reckon scum!Bart would have fought more to defend him, given the unmotivated performance from Bluedoom, or would he have left him to the lynch in order to gain more towncred upon the lynch flip? Does his vote on Shinori bear any consideration in terms of how the flips happened, in both Bluedoom + Shinori? (It seems the mindset puts more light on the inactives/quiet players rather than anyone who has been more active and participating.)

7 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

That was certainly a thing.

Realtalk, I'm conflicted about this. On the one hand, it looks bad since Marth flipped scum. On the other hand, it's not impossible that he ... is still trying to grasp how the game's played and stuff. He unvoted after Marth claimed and said that bandwagoning feels bad, so it might be that he's not used to aggressively going after people even in a game.

Like, it's not great. But because I can also see why he'd do this as town, I'm not quite as interested in looking here yet. There are some other slots I'd like to poke at first.

Bartozio looks better, he's being more active and trying to get answers. I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm town reading him, but I'm willing to chalk up D1 to a bad day.

##Unvote

##Vote: @beeboat

Okay, so they posted. But the first one is basically asking a question that could've been explained by reading the OP, and the second was just "my bad". There's no reason they couldn't have added some initial thoughts to either of those posts. And even if they didn't have the best grasp on things, it's been over a day since D2 started and this game only has like 15 pages. It's absolutely possible for them to have made at least one run of the thread.

Also, uh, hate to bring this up again but we have less than 24 hours left and these wagons are fucking all over the place. Let's consider picking some targets for consolidation and assume that a hypothetical vig isn't going to save us from Inactives.

My question regarding Bart: Was there scum!Bart intentions regarding voting Shinori last day phase (and given Shinori's flip from N1), and not being willing to touch Bluedoom's wagon by the end of the phase? And where does it put him as of D2 priority?

I agree fully with the issues with bee's posts, as expressed above.

5 hours ago, Percivalé said:

yeah I gotta say it's pretty bad beeboat's first posts coming in were gamespec oneliners. what do you guys think about aster? no one mentioned her at all after I voted her

I recalled the post prior in which the case was mentioned. I don't disagree with some of the points, but I did have a few questions about it: @Percivalé

1. You stated that Aster commented on their own passive gameplay and that is something that pinged you. I don't personally believe that acknowledging a fault in gameplay (IE. Stating that a case is weak, or that activity levels are low, etc.) has much scum intent, unless it's used as constant justification/excuses for continuing to perform poorly or not attempt to contribute to the scumhunting. Do you believe that Aster is using it as a front to avoid giving reads and contributions during the day, which would lend itself to scum intent to not actually be participating? 

2. You mentioned the piggybacking (sheeping?) of reads, but others have also stated that they have sheeped reads based on meta or such. I agree that purely sheeping is bad though (no effort in doing anything themselves), and if that's what you were noting, I agree with this notion.

3. Has there been any content in D2 from Aster that impacts any of the case concerns you posted from D1? And if so, is it better or worse?

My own thoughts on the Aster case/vote: I see your points, and I agree that it has its merits. However, I have also seen in rare times that players can opt to play in passive/almost self-conscious states, and we're also seeing some players playing in a manner that is devoid of votes and commitment to any form of lynch/consolidation (looking at DF here), which can be directly detrimental to town as well. Will expand on more on this in the final reads below.

4 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Not sure about Aster, felt pretty good about them yesterday, but intrigued that you feel that strongly about the slot. Priority beeboy though

##Vote: @beeboat

What was your thoughts on Percy's Aster case/concerns? Do they conflict from your feeling from D1 read on Aster's slot?

45 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

All right, we're slowly running out of time and I have no idea who's even going to be around on phase end.

I want everyone to post their top 2-3 scum reads, who you'd be willing to consolidate on if your biggest scum reads aren't an option, and place a vote. (Don't hammer early though.)

Bee is my current top scum read, due to Grace's slot being iffy and bee's own content being nonexistent.
Originally felt good about Elie, but his very extended absence is making me wary of him. Could potentially be Marth's scum buddy who lost motivation now that he doesn't have a partner?

Eury who is scum
Weapons, why is Cam scum
Bartozio, is Jamie scum or not

Don't know how to read Aster or Fates, so I'll take Percy's word on both of them for now until I can get any solid reads of my own. (Percy generally has good gut vibes.)

Without further ado:

--

OVERALL THOUGHTS THUS FAR:

1. I have zero issues with Bee slot as option for today's lynch. This may change if anything MEANINGFUL comes from this slot before day end, but as of right now, there is nothing impressing me from the slot, and the 2 (?) posts I saw from them said nothing, and I do not want this player slot moving forward in the game.

2. I hate to beat a dead horse, but my opinion of DF's slot did NOT improve at all since D1. Quite the opposite: I have MANY issues with the posts/votes/unvote and lack of anything at the end of D1 and posts in D2 have NOT remedied this for me. This would be the second option for today's lynch I'm fine with.

3. I was surprised by the Aster case posted by Percy, and I believe it has merit to consider. However, I do not believe it weighs more heavily than the former 2 in priority, due to the above issues. Also putting it slightly lower at this time to the one below, due to prior association with flipped scum AND town flip (Shinori).

4. Bartozio's interactions with Bluedoom still feel very iffy to me, and I am still wary of the slot. I do not personally feel as though D2 improves the association/interaction he had with Bluedoom, and the fact that he sat on a Shinori wagon that had no realistic gas as a VIABLE wagon for D1 feels worse for me. (The only part that makes the association/buddying awkward is that I don't know if a buddy of Bluedoom would be so obvious, as stated by others earlier. HOWEVER, players have been known for making gambits/gambles with interactions. Also there is the chance that he could be NOT Bluedoom's buddy, but part of the other faction as well. And in that case, the rest of his gameplay still stands on its own in question, even without association from Bluedoom's scum flip.) Currently, I understand that Sunwoo, who was very bothered by Bart, is willing to give him some leeway for D2's performance. I don't fully agree with the notion, but at this point, Bart is also responding far more and with more elaboration than either of the two first options. As a result, I am lowering the priority on him at this time, but I wish to make it clear that this slot is not in the clear whatsoever.

5. I have questions regarding Weapon's Cam vote, and the other few posts that occurred earlier in D2, but at this time, I do not deem them worth regarding Lynch consolidation for D2 at this time.

BEE SLOT = DF > Bartozio > Aster  Is how I currently stand on the situation. I am equally fine with either of the first two, the third only if something changes on the first two slots DRASTICALLY. 

##Vote: @beeboat

I should be around for phase end.

[Eurykins]

SIDE NOTE: I am actually concerned that Elieson has not posted more in this day phase (in terms of content). This is actually making his slot more concerning, in the notion of contributions/thoughts with the flips and results from D1. 

I do not know if it's a gut feeling from the fact that he seemed EXTREMELY CONFIDENT in Bluedoom, but like the aspect of Bart- I don't know if scum!Elie would opt to vie for him THAT MUCH (prod buddies, as he so fondly stated in earlier posts) unless he was hoping Bluedoom would put in more effort to prevent his lynch, with the fact that it would flip poorly onto him in doing so.

*He was one of two votes on the Bart Wagon by the end of D1, which was arguably a secondary consolidation wagon to Bluedoom's. Whether it was used to attempt to distance from contributing to a buddy's death though or not, I don't know. His posts from D1 did not innately strike me as scum-intent by default (despite the back and forth we had), but his more questionable lack of content today, and with the results from D1 from his votes/cases does not bode well for his slot for me.

I am hoping he may post tomorrow before day phase ends, and can shed some light on the concerns above/any new reads or thoughts he may have. If he does not reappear by the end of the day phase, this may drastically change my stance on my current read on Elieson.

[JamieIsBored]

1 hour ago, DefyingFates said:

Is this why you voted for me?

That and you not voting for anyone else at the end of the phase. There were also the points against you yesterday, plus rolefishing earlier on today. 

I'll respond to everyone else in a long post, just want to make clear my reasoning for voting Fates.

[Sunwoo]

I really shouldn't be awake, but I am. Going to bed after this post though. Won't be back for a while, but should be back before phase end.

7 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

My question regarding Bart: Was there scum!Bart intentions regarding voting Shinori last day phase (and given Shinori's flip from N1), and not being willing to touch Bluedoom's wagon by the end of the phase? And where does it put him as of D2 priority?

I feel like scum!Bartozio's intentions in voting Shinori would be to get rid of an active, threatening player. (Since Shinori was an active and vocal presence for all of D1, and still has the most number of posts despite being N1'd.) Scum!Bartozio might have thought he had a chance at voting Shinori off, considering Grace had also expressed not liking Shinori earlier. I don't recall if anyone besides those three expressed not liking Shinori (and I am certainly not looking through D1 again at this hour). Either way, scum!Bartozio would probably want active player Shinori gone before Marth, who wasn't all that active or aggressive.

But it's also not impossible that he just had terrible reads. Again, I wouldn't call him a town read, just he's not my biggest scum read. I guess if I had to place him in a priority list for D2, he'd be somewhere near the middle.