Vigilante Mafia Game Thread - Game Over, LoVE wins!

[Bartozio]

@Eurykins Haven't read the entire wall yet, so I might get back to you on some other things in there in a bit, but I'll explain what I thought about the Shinori shot:

I was mostly thinking other people (mostly Perci and Sunwoo) made more sense as shots, since they were more universal townreads. Shinori is a good shot for scum if they think one of those two is being docced though. Hence why I said what I said.

[Percivalé]

I'm probably not going to be around for phase end (posting because I'm on lunch break @ work currently), I'll likely be asleep, but I'll have a chance to respond to your questions eury b4 I sleep. wanted to say though, RE: grace slot, my intention behind that statement was to explain why I hadn't cased grace over her play like some other ppl were doing. I'd rather not speculate about why she subbed (that's usually against the rules anyway) & I don't think criticizing her is productive.

RE: aster, I did talk about her d2 content in my post but can elaborate further if that's what you're asking for. also need to read her response to me. what about my case on her surprised you? I'm curious at your wording here

[JamieIsBored]

10 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

But it's more the quality of those posts. If you can only make two posts in a given time period, all the more reason to try to get as many thoughts out as you can. Also, their question is just kinda nothing. At worst you're asking a question that contributes nothing that we already know the answer to; at best it suggests you didn't read the OP (which isn't really amazing).

Yeah, I see that. I'm down to consolidate later on then if no-one joins me on Fates.

8 hours ago, Percivalé said:

what do you guys think about aster?

I don't really have a lot of thoughts on her tbh, she's been very staunch in her read of me. That's all I really remember about her.

4 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I want everyone to post their top 2-3 scum reads, who you'd be willing to consolidate on if your biggest scum reads aren't an option, and place a vote. (Don't hammer early though.)

  Here for the record

34 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

Can you guys explain to me why DF hopping on and off the Marth wagon the way he did is scummy?

Felt kinda like Fates was being coached into distancing from Bluedoom, the intial vote is after Fates had been away for a short while with Bluedoom having been active in thread before, yet the moment that Bluedoom comes back Fates unvotes almost as if Bluedoom told him too as it meant that he would be lynched without any changes.th There were other wagons with 2 that both could have hopped on in order to potentially pull a player from Bluedoom's wagon over for a mislynch.

Now getting into more theoretical territory, it could be possible Bluedoom was hoping Fates would switch onto one of these other wagons and then seeing that their scumbud wasn't actively pushing for anyone else, Bluedoom lost all motivation to save themselves. 

38 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

(and I think Grace's sub may have the same issue? Not sure?)

Currently yes. I don't think Fates had the issue though because they were posting a lot at the start.

41 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

(ALSO I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THE PING YOU MEAN = JAMIE'S POST IN WHICH HE VOTED YOU? I didn't see another post that had an @DefyingFates in it outside of his VOTE post when reading.) 

This is true.

45 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

I don't think they've played many games on SF/with the players here (anyone is free to correct me on this point, I know it's the first game for me with 'em).

I have never played on this site or with a majority of the players here, only Elieson a few times on Bulbagarden and then Shinori for a day in Champs.

52 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

Bart was mentioned in the first section, but then was dropped in the "Current theory" section- is there a reason for him not fitting in as well as the others? Do you reckon scum!Bart would have fought more to defend him, given the unmotivated performance from Bluedoom, or would he have left him to the lynch in order to gain more towncred upon the lynch flip? Does his vote on Shinori bear any consideration in terms of how the flips happened, in both Bluedoom + Shinori? (It seems the mindset puts more light on the inactives/quiet players rather than anyone who has been more active and participating.)

On bolded, simply put Bartozio had all the chance to switch to you alongside Bluedoom in order to potentially save him. I think scum!Bartozio with people already sniffing out the connection between him and Bluedoom would have tried a lot harder to try and stop the lynch that day, imo in a multiball it's better to keep your partner alive than it is to have towncred from bussing them. Scum!Bartozio would look bad from a votals perspective either way if he didn't vote for Bluedoom, so him going for a chance to protect Bluedoom seems like a better scum play. 

And I should be around for phase end btw.

[Eurykins]

6 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

@Eurykins Haven't read the entire wall yet, so I might get back to you on some other things in there in a bit, but I'll explain what I thought about the Shinori shot:

I was mostly thinking other people (mostly Perci and Sunwoo) made more sense as shots, since they were more universal townreads. Shinori is a good shot for scum if they think one of those two is being docced though. Hence why I said what I said.

So the confusion I have, is actually well-written by Sunwoo below:

11 minutes ago, Sunwoo said:

I really shouldn't be awake, but I am. Going to bed after this post though. Won't be back for a while, but should be back before phase end.

I feel like scum!Bartozio's intentions in voting Shinori would be to get rid of an active, threatening player. (Since Shinori was an active and vocal presence for all of D1, and still has the most number of posts despite being N1'd.) Scum!Bartozio might have thought he had a chance at voting Shinori off, considering Grace had also expressed not liking Shinori earlier. I don't recall if anyone besides those three expressed not liking Shinori (and I am certainly not looking through D1 again at this hour). Either way, scum!Bartozio would probably want active player Shinori gone before Marth, who wasn't all that active or aggressive.

But it's also not impossible that he just had terrible reads. Again, I wouldn't call him a town read, just he's not my biggest scum read. I guess if I had to place him in a priority list for D2, he'd be somewhere near the middle.

Considering the activity level, overall voice presence, and the fact that an inactive slot <Grace> + You/Bluedoom were the ONLY ones who had issues with Shinori (and I don't recall anyone else seriously voting for him outside of RVS/early D1), why is Shinori not a slot that would have been considered "Universal townread" for the rest of the players? 

It's the concept that you considered him an "easier target for N1" kill than a few others that I find peculiar and less likely someone to be protected, because no votes happened until later in D1, and it seemed to moreso be in response to Bluedoom's own wagon being put forth (so an attempt at a counterwagon?). And as far as I could see, there was no serious traction, casing, or anyone openly reading him as scum outside of you 2? 

Do you agree or disagree with Sunwoo's logic in the above post regarding kill intentions, and whether they would hold weight in terms of why Shinori would have been killed?
 

2 minutes ago, Percivalé said:

I'm probably not going to be around for phase end (posting because I'm on lunch break @ work currently), I'll likely be asleep, but I'll have a chance to respond to your questions eury b4 I sleep. wanted to say though, RE: grace slot, my intention behind that statement was to explain why I hadn't cased grace over her play like some other ppl were doing. I'd rather not speculate about why she subbed (that's usually against the rules anyway) & I don't think criticizing her is productive.

RE: aster, I did talk about her d2 content in my post but can elaborate further if that's what you're asking for. also need to read her response to me. what about my case on her surprised you? I'm curious at your wording here

Understandable with the bolded. However, players do have the make the choice as to whether they trust the slot's intentions, based on what posts are available, as to whether it is a good player slot to retain for following day phases. I don't think anyone would criticize the fact of someone being sick, but it's also understandable if someone is MIA for a game that requires player participation and cooperation to play the game effectively. We cannot make excuses for slots/players who opt to not participate for various reasons, and we eventually have to make the call as to whether it is safe or not to retain the slots, despite them being actively detrimental to town with little to no participation (in this case, even with the sub, nothing has be done from what I could see in D2, which is a big problem for me in reading that slot in a positive light.)

The reason why I was surprised is that, until today, I don't recall any full blown cases being drawn up against Aster, since D1 (I would need to do a re-read and it's well past my time to sleep and I want to make sure I'm up for phase end)? I know both DF and Aster flew under a LOT of radars given the posting limit/restriction, newbie player consideration, and the fact that other wagons/players took priority. 
However, I did not recall seeing prior notions of the slot, plus you posted before the case post that you had a theory to share and such before the day phase ended (D2). I didn't quite know what to expect, along with what was mentioned earlier at the start of D2, so I was curious to see what theory came to mind, and it was for someone I hadn't expected, given the lack of casing beforehand.

On a side note: I may have missed some of your posts earlier, sorry. Had a question upon checking a few pages back though @Percivalé:

8 hours ago, Percivalé said:

I think aster is more likely to flip scum than DF, I've been reading DF town & the marth unvote at end of d1 read like new player town afraid of being wrong . sry for the twitterposts BTW this is the most reliable way I can post content

Does the fact that Marth flipped Scum not impact the fact that DF voted and then backpedaled once he claimed, and then despite others stating it was a NULL/not AI claim, refused to either revote or offer a secondary consolidation? Or anything really? Because I recall Shinori posting multiple times asking for questions, reads, votes, SOMETHING to put forth, and the fact that DF offered little to nothing back? I understand newbie aspect, but there have been so many questions and chances to be active, to interact, and to work WITH the players to consolidate votes, lynch, etc. that DF has avoided committing to. At what point is this going to pose a problem for townside if this continues, and what benefit does town have if this persists?

[CT075]

1 hour ago, Bartozio said:

@CT075 @JamieIsBored Can you guys explain to me why DF hopping on and off the Marth wagon the way he did is scummy?

I'm personally having some issue wrapping my head around it, but I feel like it's more likely to come from town? Scum would make the vote assuming they're either voting their buddy or town, so they'd be less likely to go back on it I feel. (Since it's multiball scum!DF could be unsure whether Marth's scum I guess, but that argument holds the same for town!DF).

On its own, I agree with you. Taking the theory that remaining scum is within beeboy/Aster/DF (which is an argument that I can entertain even if I don't completely buy it), IMO the uncertain vote on/vote off leans more unconfident scum than unconfident town because, of the three, DF was the one under fire from Eury from earlier in the day, and scum is going to be more conscious of that. Scum is also more likely to second-guess the repercussions of voting (for anyone) than town for similar reasons.

When I made the post yesterday I was more confident in this line of reasoning but I am less sure of it now idk, DF is lacking confidence in general (reasonable! we can be kinda scary) which can happen as either alignment.

[BBM]

Sorry guys I'm not sure what's going on with posting limits. According to Integ they should be gone for all the new players at this point.

Also, Elieson and Beeboat have been prodded.

[Bartozio]

52 minutes ago, JamieIsBored said:

Felt kinda like Fates was being coached into distancing from Bluedoom, the intial vote is after Fates had been away for a short while with Bluedoom having been active in thread before, yet the moment that Bluedoom comes back Fates unvotes almost as if Bluedoom told him too as it meant that he would be lynched without any changes.th There were other wagons with 2 that both could have hopped on in order to potentially pull a player from Bluedoom's wagon over for a mislynch.

Now getting into more theoretical territory, it could be possible Bluedoom was hoping Fates would switch onto one of these other wagons and then seeing that their scumbud wasn't actively pushing for anyone else, Bluedoom lost all motivation to save themselves.

Fair enough. I don't entirely agree, as I though Bluedoom got demotivated before DF's vote, but I can see where you're coming from.

Quote

Currently yes. I don't think Fates had the issue though because they were posting a lot at the start.

I'm pretty sure Fates has been a member of the forum for a while, although he is new to the mafia sub forum.

47 minutes ago, Eurykins said:

So the confusion I have, is actually well-written by Sunwoo below:

Considering the activity level, overall voice presence, and the fact that an inactive slot <Grace> + You/Bluedoom were the ONLY ones who had issues with Shinori (and I don't recall anyone else seriously voting for him outside of RVS/early D1), why is Shinori not a slot that would have been considered "Universal townread" for the rest of the players? 

It's the concept that you considered him an "easier target for N1" kill than a few others that I find peculiar and less likely someone to be protected, because no votes happened until later in D1, and it seemed to moreso be in response to Bluedoom's own wagon being put forth (so an attempt at a counterwagon?). And as far as I could see, there was no serious traction, casing, or anyone openly reading him as scum outside of you 2? 

Do you agree or disagree with Sunwoo's logic in the above post regarding kill intentions, and whether they would hold weight in terms of why Shinori would have been killed?

I mean, do I think Shinori was a terrible shot who was likely to get lynched today if scum did nothing: No, not really.

Would they have been my first choice to shoot if I were scum? No, I'd rather shoot Perci or Sunwoo. The fact that Nori was at least voted on and there was some confusion about him not voting means I wouldn't see him as a priority shot. (And if scum figured out he was a major, that would be all the more reason to shoot elsewhere first).

That's what I would have thought though. It's entirely possible I'm wrong and scum thought more along your and Sunwoo's logic and actually just wanted Shinori gone asap.

21 minutes ago, CT075 said:

On its own, I agree with you. Taking the theory that remaining scum is within beeboy/Aster/DF (which is an argument that I can entertain even if I don't completely buy it), IMO the uncertain vote on/vote off leans more unconfident scum than unconfident town because, of the three, DF was the one under fire from Eury from earlier in the day, and scum is going to be more conscious of that. Scum is also more likely to second-guess the repercussions of voting (for anyone) than town for similar reasons.

When I made the post yesterday I was more confident in this line of reasoning but I am less sure of it now idk, DF is lacking confidence in general (reasonable! we can be kinda scary) which can happen as either alignment.

Fair enough. not much more to say here than I already said to Jamie.

[BBM]

Mod Votals 2.3

Beeboat (3): Sunwoo, WeaponsofMassConstruction, Eurykins
Sunwoo (1): CT075
Aster (1): Percivale
DefyingFates (1): JamieIsBored
Not Voting: Aster, Elieson, DefyingFates, Beeboat, Bartozio

Phase ends in approximately 8 hours and 54 minutes, at 6PM EST on July 20th. With 11 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch at deadline and 6 to hammer.

[Bartozio]

Also, I'll be around at phase end. I'm fine with lynching Beeboat just to get rid of the slot now instead of having to worry about it during the end of the game, but the slot is otherwise just a big null to me.

[JamieIsBored]

##Unvote: @DefyingFates

##Vote: @beeboat

I’d rather go for Fates but we need to consolidate if we want a lynch today. 

[Percivalé]

eury are you trying to convince me to vote DF on the basis that his play is anti-town or that you think he's scum? 

[Percivalé]

also I already said I was willing to consolidate on beeboat lol 

[Percivalé]

TBH I just got home from work and I'm falling asleep at the keyboard so I don't think I can post the full response to eury & the response to aster I was planning on, sorry. if I'm awake before phase end i will but I might not be awake before then

##Unvote: @Aster

##Vote: @beeboat

this is 5 votes for beeboat the 6th vote is hammer dont vote unless you want day to end

[BBM]

Ok posting limits should now be gone. Also, Integrity changed things so mafia posts should now count towards ranking up and so posting limits won't matter for as long.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Cam is mafia because

[DefyingFates]

6 hours ago, Eurykins said:

At what point is absence seen as acceptable, verses having the intentions of not contributing, and overall showing zero interest in partaking in the town scumhunting within this game? How else should the rest of the player base be expected to be left wanting, and to not expect them to show signs of distrust for the player slot, especially with the sub not making it seem any better at this point? Why should the others be convinced that this slot should be trusted, over the other players who have brought things to the table at this point? Would you feel SAFE as TOWN to have this sort of slot in the final days?

Also, what is your opinion on Aster? You mention not wanting to "put them on blast"- what is concerning you about them, and why dangle that comment and then refuse to state the thoughts/reads? 

Okay, looking at it this way, I think there are some real world situations that excuse low activity, being sick or new to the game among them. However, I agree that in general it's dangerous for town to essentially have one less player because that person is AWOL. As for the comment about Aster, I just meant I'd personally give them the benefit of the doubt since it's their first time.

6 hours ago, Eurykins said:

IMO, this is a terrible take on someone disregarding a vote on them ("forgiving it") and the fact that this implies a town read on them as a result is questionable. I understand that the majority of players in this game regard Percy's slot in a town light- this is not an issue in itself. However, your logic as to WHY they are a townread makes no sense at all to me. 

Percy literally stated: "my long answer to that is that the vote didn't bother me because I assumed it was RVS+getting a feel for how the game works & the reason he stated later for the vote was fine". What this tells me is that they took your vote as a NON-SERIOUS/RVS vote, meaning that your vote on them had little to no meaningful weight behind it nor was there EVER (to my knowledge) any form of wagon that was ever expressed towards Percy at all since D1. 

Fair enough.

6 hours ago, Eurykins said:

So you mention Bart, due to Bluedoom flip/association from D1, and then mention Weapons/Jamie as being "Curious" about them.  But then in the later bolded part, you list suspicion on Bart/Weapons and then state "unsure of the rest"? Where is the curiosity/questions from Weapons/Jamie? Is the fact that "Jamie pinged you"  (assuming in a post) imply that he had TOWN intentions? (ALSO I'M PRETTY SURE THAT THE PING YOU MEAN = JAMIE'S POST IN WHICH HE VOTED YOU? I didn't see another post that had an @DefyingFates in it outside of his VOTE post when reading.) 

That's what I meant by the ping. As for the comment in general, I was just listing my thoughts as they came to me, so while I was suspicious of Jamie at first, I figured them not letting me get lynched so easily was a sign they were supporting a fellow town mate. So right now I still have doubts about Bart and Weapons and am undecided on whether anyone else leans towards town or mafia (apart from those I said felt like town to me earlier).

6 hours ago, Eurykins said:

None of this gives me townsided vibes at ALL. Removal of vote pressure/lynch consolidation (that COULD have resulted in a NO LYNCH, which is extremely harmful for town, as lynches are the PRIMARY WEAPON to remove scum from the game), no cases as of end of D1, and jumping off of a wagon that flipped SCUM- all of this screams anti-town and I cannot see townsided intent with any of this. 

This is just me being inexperienced and going with my gut, but I'm hoping that improves the more I play. I don't have anything else to offer than that unfortunately.

[DefyingFates]

6 hours ago, CT075 said:

DF was the one under fire from Eury from earlier in the day, and scum is going to be more conscious of that.

Are you saying scum is less likely to off me because I'm currently a suspect?

5 hours ago, Bartozio said:

Would they have been my first choice to shoot if I were scum? No, I'd rather shoot Perci or Sunwoo. The fact that Nori was at least voted on and there was some confusion about him not voting means I wouldn't see him as a priority shot. (And if scum figured out he was a major, that would be all the more reason to shoot elsewhere first).

What makes the ideal targets in your eyes, if I may ask?

[Bartozio]

2 minutes ago, DefyingFates said:

What makes the ideal targets in your eyes, if I may ask?

I'll answer this, but I'll ask you first: Imagine you're part of the mafia and the choice rests entirely on you. Who would you shoot and what would you look for in a target?

[Aster]

Oh thank goodness I can reply again-

Welp, cowabunga it is, time to grow a backbone. Please prove me wrong before voting time.

##Vote WeaponsOfMassConstruction

[Aster]

*Typo, to clarify, time for ME to grow a backbone, got worried it sounded like I was insulting Weapons for a sec, sorry. 😅

[Sunwoo]

4 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

Cam is mafia because

Weapons pls

I'll be here until phase end, but it's a whole load of nothing going on right now.

[BBM]

Mod Votals 2.4

Beeboat (5): Sunwoo, WeaponsofMassConstruction, Eurykins, JamieIsBored, Percivale (L-1!)
Sunwoo (1): CT075
WeaponsofMassConstruction (1): Aster
Not Voting: Elieson, DefyingFates, Beeboat, Bartozio

Phase ends in approximately 56 minutes, at 6PM EST on July 20th. With 11 players alive, it takes 4 to lynch at deadline and 6 to hammer.

[beeboat]

Can someone unvote me before I claim.

[beeboat]

Ok anyway, so I'm a cop variant called a friendly cop in which the person who I cop also receives my alignment.  

[Bartozio]

1 minute ago, beeboat said:

Ok anyway, so I'm a cop variant called a friendly cop in which the person who I cop also receives my alignment.  

Who did you/Grace cop night 1?