OMG it's a tier list

[General Banzai]

welp, FE9 Marcia to high tier then!

isn't she already there

also why dont we annotate our tier lists with footnotes explaining resource-dependent placements

like

High Tier

Oliver

Gareth

Jill*

*Requires dickfucks of swag loot

Edited October 5, 2013 by General Banzai

[Dark Sage]

isn't she already there

also why dont we annotate our tier lists with footnotes explaining resource-dependent placements

like

High Tier

Oliver

Gareth

Jill*

*Requires dickfucks of swag loot

nope. Top of top (or just below Titania, idk). Also I remember jushiro proposing this idea and the argument was if you were to start doing things like tier two versions of the Avatar w/or without Veteran or Sumia w/out Galeforce for example, you might as well tier a lot of versions for everyone for consistency's sake. That is just not all that feasible or appealing, although I can some merit in the idea personally.

also it's important to note that Jill doesn't necessarily require a lot of resources relative to everyone else, but if they go on her, you get so much more out of them then if you threw them all on, say, Nolan. In addition, the actual amount of turns Jill saves is the turns when she gets the resources vs the turns when the next best alternative gets them. When dondon says that Jill (T) requires a lot of your resources, he definitely means that she needs that much to save the most turns. Basically my view is that she's pretty similar to the other DB units in the amount of resources to perform decently but if you give her pretty much all the ones available, she is a league above them. That is why while there is an opportunity cost to her taking the resources, it's not a big enough one to prevent her from reaching Top Tier.

Jill (N) is a somewhat different case though.

It's a perfectly valid argument, actually. What does RF want from the tier list she runs? Accessibility to all for understanding unit placement or not? Of course, when Mia shot up from low-upper mid to mid-high, that was reliant on knowing how to make a forge and a support, so I'm not sure it's valid to complain about specific actions vaulting units now. However, if Mia drops back to upper mid then keeping Jill down is perfectly valid.

If RF was running fe11 and didn't want to place Caeda based on forging a win spear, then that's fine, too. But as she's not running the fe11 list, your point is irrelevant.

edit: oh, a forge, a support, and also Adept and keeping Vantage helps a tad.

see this is amusing, because this is a common accusation you guys have of smash and (god help me) snowy. Apparently as long as one of the members of your circlejerk decides to dig in their heels and just tier according to their biases, it's ok.

(also I like how somehow Caeda getting a Wing Spear forge is a specific action that's unacceptable (according to Red Fox anyway) but giving Mia a Forge and Ike support and Adept is not).

Edited October 5, 2013 by Jack Frost

[shadykid]

isn't she already there

nope, 2nd to Titania and comfortably in top tier!

[BBM]

I used to think this too. But this is false now. She's still ridiculous and can 3 turn C12, which is still Marcia only. I managed to do it in a draft, where she can only be given 2 levels max from her base when she joins and it was fixed mode. I got her to Level something/1 by the time C12 happened. You gotta give her the Robe and Draco and a forge (and eventually the C14 energy drop), so she still needs resources that aren't BEXP. You only lose 2 turns to a BEXP'd Marcia and im not sure if C10 was a 4 turn just because its a draft and I had a more limited team. I probably couldve 3 turned if I had other units. Sure, she doesnt have as ridiculous an offense and needs more help long-term, but she's still acceptable in C23 and I never really had that much of an issue because it's an earlypromoted Marcia.

Anyway, FE10Jill. Consider that she wants 2 Robes, a Dracoshield, an Energy Drop, transfers, Steel Axe forge and Beastfoe to realize her full potential. BEXP in FE9 is a more abundant resource, it's not comparable at all to what Jill needs here to function at her best.

This doesn't counter the argument that Top Tier Marcia assumes a competent player, because you're replacing one thing that only a competent player would do with another thing that only a competent player would do. Also I don't know the exact differences between NM and HM stats, but what Marcia might be able to do in a NM draft, she might not be able to do in HM. Plus, IIRC tier lists assume 100% recruitment, meaning we're not 3-turning C12 anyways.

As for the italics, I can't comment on whether or not Jill actually needs all that, since the only time I played FE10, my Jill was incredibly blessed and capped most of her stats by 20/20/5 or something equally ridiculous. However, the question of Jill's placement isn't one of opportunity cost of the resources she takes, but one of the player's competence. Jill might need more resources than Marcia, but she doesn't need a more competent player.

[shadykid]

FE9 MM+FE10 HM speedrun/LTC playthrough with transfers, Japanese version of FE10 to make it harder

Edited October 5, 2013 by shadykid

[Florete]

see this is amusing, because this is a common accusation you guys have of smash and (god help me) snowy. Apparently as long as one of the members of your circlejerk decides to dig in their heels and just tier according to their biases, it's ok.

When did we ever accuse them of tiering according to their biases? How is that what I'm doing or what Narga was even suggesting I'm doing?

(also I like how somehow Caeda getting a Wing Spear forge is a specific action that's unacceptable (according to Red Fox anyway)

Please point to where I said anything of the sort. (Hint: Check context before replying) Edited October 5, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Ema Skye]

Anyway, FE10Jill. Consider that she wants 2 Robes, a Dracoshield, an Energy Drop, transfers, Steel Axe forge and Beastfoe to realize her full potential. BEXP in FE9 is a more abundant resource, it's not comparable at all to what Jill needs here to function at her best.

Uh, wat?

The only thing she really wants is the 1-4 Robe. Everything else is optional. I honestly don't know why you think she needs two when having just a single robe turns her into one of your most bulkiest units for 3-6 (second to Volug, though he needs grass now).

Well I guess she'd like an Iron forge until 1-E when Steel becomes available, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants a forge aside from Maurim, BK, Nailah and Volug so I dunno why you're penalizing her for that.

Same with Beastfoe. Every offensive unit in 3-6 wants it (unless you're Sothe), so you better be penalizing Nolan and Volug for wanting Beastfoe too. Jill makes an intuitive case for it. We beat the map by reaching enemy units. Jill reaches enemy units faster than any other unit on the team.

[PKL]

This doesn't counter the argument that Top Tier Marcia assumes a competent player, because you're replacing one thing that only a competent player would do with another thing that only a competent player would do. Also I don't know the exact differences between NM and HM stats, but what Marcia might be able to do in a NM draft, she might not be able to do in HM. Plus, IIRC tier lists assume 100% recruitment, meaning we're not 3-turning C12 anyways.

As for the italics, I can't comment on whether or not Jill actually needs all that, since the only time I played FE10, my Jill was incredibly blessed and capped most of her stats by 20/20/5 or something equally ridiculous. However, the question of Jill's placement isn't one of opportunity cost of the resources she takes, but one of the player's competence. Jill might need more resources than Marcia, but she doesn't need a more competent player.

Since when has FE9 ever been drafted in NM? I was talking HM.

Uh, wat?

The only thing she really wants is the 1-4 Robe. Everything else is optional. I honestly don't know why you think she needs two when having just a single robe turns her into one of your most bulkiest units for 3-6 (second to Volug, though he needs grass now).

Well I guess she'd like an Iron forge until 1-E when Steel becomes available, but I'm pretty sure everyone wants a forge aside from Maurim, BK, Nailah and Volug so I dunno why you're penalizing her for that.

Same with Beastfoe. Every offensive unit in 3-6 wants it (unless you're Sothe), so you better be penalizing Nolan and Volug for wanting Beastfoe too. Jill makes an intuitive case for it. We beat the map by reaching enemy units. Jill reaches enemy units faster than any other unit on the team.

Jill needs those resources to cut the turn off of 3-6 3-12 and 3-13 HM. It's otherwise pretty hard for her to be able to do the things she could do with them.

[-Cynthia-]

The 2nd Robe is admittedly nice on Jill, but I'm not sure where we would even put it otherwise. The GMs don't have many durability issues and get their own Robe regardless. Sothe/Zihark/DB members who can't fight laguz much anyway don't benefit much from the Robe and neither does Volug (Dracoshield is better on him). Nolan is a possibility I guess if we're training both him and Jill.

[dondon151]

I used to think this too. But this is false now. She's still ridiculous and can 3 turn C12, which is still Marcia only. I managed to do it in a draft, where she can only be given 2 levels max from her base when she joins and it was fixed mode. I got her to Level something/1 by the time C12 happened. You gotta give her the Robe and Draco and a forge (and eventually the C14 energy drop), so she still needs resources that aren't BEXP. You only lose 2 turns to a BEXP'd Marcia and im not sure if C10 was a 4 turn just because its a draft and I had a more limited team. I probably couldve 3 turned if I had other units. Sure, she doesnt have as ridiculous an offense and needs more help long-term, but she's still acceptable in C23 and I never really had that much of an issue because it's an earlypromoted Marcia.

let's go with this assumption for a second (seeing as how i can't really justify an opposing claim). you're helping me prove my point here. marcia's getting a robe, a dracoshield, an energy drop, a forge, and a ton of EXP investment. jill is pretty much getting the same exact resources (with EXP investment in the form of paragon), but forges in RD can rain out of the sky. as BBM mentioned, you're replacing one set of specific investment steps (BEXP plow) with a different one that is arguably less "intuitive."

Please point to where I said anything of the sort. (Hint: Check context before replying)

gladly! you said the following regarding FE11 caeda and FE9 marcia:

Maybe this will help: if this were the FE11 tier list and what you're saying about Caeda is 100% true, I'd not want her in top, either.

I was, but it's been a loooong time. People and ideas change. Would I argue FE9 Marcia down from Top now? Not sure. Maybe. I at least won't say that I'd definitely keep her there.

then you said the following in defense of mia, in addition to the earlier post trying to justify her resource package as intuitive:

That was also a time where resource consumption was considered a huge negative. I'm not advocating we go back to the ways of 2009 here.

so i have a proposition. let's move mia back down to upper mid. are we in agreement?

[Espinosa]

I think there's a difference between actual competence and knowledge of basic guidelines (e.g. 'give Marcus bosskills' or 'feed Marcia BEXP'). Competence is accumulated on the spot as you spend time thinking what to do in a chapter, plan ahead (lots of mini-tasks that basic guidelines cannot possibly cover), watch how the enemies behave during each turn and decide what to do. The said basic guidelines belong in the explicitly stated or implitcly known concept behind the tier list, such as awareness that a mounted unit is preferred to a foot combatant and that flight helps skip portions of the map hindered by terrain. Specifics will deal greatly from game to game however. Miledy, Marcia, Vanessa and Thany are all very different characters who cannot be adequately characterised as a group without distinguishing them based on their respective games.

[shadykid]

I used to think this too. But this is false now. She's still ridiculous and can 3 turn C12, which is still Marcia only. I managed to do it in a draft, where she can only be given 2 levels max from her base when she joins and it was fixed mode. I got her to Level something/1 by the time C12 happened. You gotta give her the Robe and Draco and a forge (and eventually the C14 energy drop), so she still needs resources that aren't BEXP. You only lose 2 turns to a BEXP'd Marcia and im not sure if C10 was a 4 turn just because its a draft and I had a more limited team. I probably couldve 3 turned if I had other units. Sure, she doesnt have as ridiculous an offense and needs more help long-term, but she's still acceptable in C23 and I never really had that much of an issue because it's an earlypromoted Marcia.

Anyway, FE10Jill. Consider that she wants 2 Robes, a Dracoshield, an Energy Drop, transfers, Steel Axe forge and Beastfoe to realize her full potential. BEXP in FE9 is a more abundant resource, it's not comparable at all to what Jill needs here to function at her best.

so this is literally the exact same package of statboosters as FE10 Jill

uh.....

(and no, giving Jill Paragon is more intuitive than dumping nearly all your early BEXP on Marcia, do not try that)

[Florete]

gladly! you said the following regarding FE11 caeda and FE9 marcia:

then you said the following in defense of mia, in addition to the earlier post trying to justify her resource package as intuitive:

*Sigh*. I know I wasn't talking to you, but I said to check context for a reason. Shit, you were even the one I was responding to in the Caeda quote, you should have understood it better than anyone.

Maybe this will help: if this were the FE11 tier list and what you're saying about Caeda is 100% true, I'd not want her in top, either.

In other words, "If the logic is truly such that Caeda would need to go down, I would agree that she should go down." Not "A Wing Spear forge is not intuitive enough and shouldn't be assumed."

I even said before all this that I think simply using Caeda with the Wing Spear is intuitive enough. You're the one who said it isn't.

I was, but it's been a loooong time. People and ideas change. Would I argue FE9 Marcia down from Top now? Not sure. Maybe. I at least won't say that I'd definitely keep her there.

I don't even know why you quoted this. It isn't what Jack Frost was referencing and I clearly didn't make a decision either way.

so i have a proposition. let's move mia back down to upper mid. are we in agreement?

I can see myself agreeing with this, but I won't do it based on just this conversation. Edited October 5, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[Espinosa]

Aren't Jill's combat contributions until Part 4 nothing special at all? For example, if she gets no resources she can still function as a flier doing flier things. Instead of playing the primary role in the Laguz rout map, she could drop Nolan to do the fighting for her (or Sothe or Zihark).

And the reason why Jill gets so hyped for Part 4 is also specific to a point - Haar doesn't exist in 3-13 and we assume we are minimising turn counts on each and every map.

I wouldn't compare her to Marcia in PoR, but can we at least agree that she's the most worthy recepient of investments in the DB? Why does every tier discussion that appears nowadays have to be a battle of extremities?

[shadykid]

Aren't Jill's combat contributions until Part 4 nothing special at all? For example, if she gets no resources she can still function as a flier doing flier things. Instead of playing the primary role in the Laguz rout map, she could drop Nolan to do the fighting for her (or Sothe or Zihark).

And the reason why Jill gets so hyped for Part 4 is also specific to a point - Haar doesn't exist in 3-13 and we assume we are minimising turn counts on each and every map.

I wouldn't compare her to Marcia in PoR, but can we at least agree that she's the most worthy recepient of investments in the DB? Why does every tier discussion that appears nowadays have to be a battle of extremities?

if you do it right she becomes your lead DB unit in part 3

[Ema Skye]

Jill doubles more enemies than Nolan does on average, which gives her better offense than him. On average, Nolan needs to be Lv.20/9 to double Tigers where as Jill needs to be Lv.20/5 to double the same tigers.

And if she gets one of the two Part 1 robes, she's just as durable as him (less HP but more defense).

[Elieson]

Jill doubles more enemies than Nolan does on average, which gives her better offense than him. On average, Nolan needs to be Lv.20/9 to double Tigers where as Jill needs to be Lv.20/5 to double the same tigers.

And if she gets one of the two Part 1 robes, she's just as durable as him (less HP but more defense).

Are you referring to Jill!resource package, becaus I still look at the tier list wondering "who the fuck gets what boosters and why should I know this on my second or third Playthrough of the game?".

[Ema Skye]

20/9 Jill was without any boosters bar the robe.

[Snowy_One]

What about the converse? What does Volug bring to part 4 that Jill doesn't? Or part 3 for that matter? We can't just go and cherry-pick the times when Jill or Volug isn't that great and claim 'see? Move them down' while ignoring all the rest.

[General Banzai]

What about the converse? What does Volug bring to part 4 that Jill doesn't? Or part 3 for that matter? We can't just go and cherry-pick the times when Jill or Volug isn't that great and claim 'see? Move them down' while ignoring all the rest.

what are you referring to

has volug even been mentioned in the last two pages

also a unit not being great before they are great is much worse than a unit starting great and becoming ungreat, because the bench exists

[Snowy_One]

I seem to be behind as I still recall the discussions of Volug's tiering relating to Jill's placement largely due to his impact in chapter 1.

Also, I VERY much disagree with that statement or, rather, the reason why. Like I said, you can't just cherry-pick the times Volug is good and discard the rest. If we could do that a unit like Ilyana could probably stand to jump if only due to the transfer-service she provides the DB and we can ignore her bad times where she's only average because she'll be benched or preforming well (or as well as Ilyana can preform). Shinon in FE9 is very strong and fairly good when he joins, but pretty weak, possibly even worse than Rolf (in fact I'd almost guarantee it) when he rejoins. But we can't just discount that fact because he'll be benched when tiering him. That he's pretty bad post-rejoin is a huge factor in his tiering. I don't see any reason why a unit like Volug should receive special treatment.

If going from bad to good is worse than going from good to bad it should be because being bad in the later-game isn't as big an impact compared to the early-game. Not because 'we can just bench them'.

[General Banzai]

Also, I VERY much disagree with that statement or, rather, the reason why. Like I said, you can't just cherry-pick the times Volug is good and discard the rest. If we could do that a unit like Ilyana could probably stand to jump if only due to the transfer-service she provides the DB and we can ignore her bad times where she's only average because she'll be benched or preforming well (or as well as Ilyana can preform). Shinon in FE9 is very strong and fairly good when he joins, but pretty weak, possibly even worse than Rolf (in fact I'd almost guarantee it) when he rejoins. But we can't just discount that fact because he'll be benched when tiering him.

Shinon is great for two chapters and isn't used after that?

better than someone who is never good, or someone who is a liability the entire game only to be good for two chapters

you say we can't discount the fact that shinon sucks after he joins, but why

if he's not hurting the team that doesn't detract from his positive contributions earlier

[Snowy_One]

I'm not arguing that two chapters of being good is better than never being good. What I'm saying is you can't go 'well, X unit sucks after Y chapter, so we'll just bench them', especially in tiering. For multiple reasons even.

1) It creates a 'benched' tier for all units who aren't the best. Since any unit who isn't good enough to be part of the main team will be benched, and all benched units contribute the same amount, any unit who is not part of the main team is equal to any other unit not part of the main team, regardless of anything.

2) It causes legitimate problems with gauging a units power as we can only focus on the 'good' chapters and can't focus on their problems.

3) It hamfistedly assumes that a certain team will ALWAYS be used (or else the unit couldn't always be known to be worse). This isn't the case by ANY means, even in draft-play (about as close as one can reasonably get to absolute LTC play without throwing tiers out the window entirely in favor of the absolute lowest turncount setups).

So, tell me, why should we assume a unit gets benched at a certain point? Especially if we're debating that units tier-placement?

[Redwall]

When discussing a certain segment of the game and looking at how it influences a unit's tier-list position, we can compare that unit's (Bob's) gross contributions in that certain segment of the game (assuming Bob is fielded) to the gross contributions of other units in that segment, assuming they are fielded in Bob's place--if Bob's gross contributions are smaller than, say, Abel's, then we can assume Abel to be fielded in place of Bob. We account for benching in this fashion, by considering what a unit would bring to the table if fielded.

[Florete]

Guys, I've already said units are assumed their deployment slot for free, so even if someone sucks after a certain point they won't get penalized for continuing to be used.