OMG it's a tier list

[Rewjeo]

But the reason for doing them in a vacuum is so you can see how much they improve via getting a transfer. So it may be more accurate in one sense, but less accurate in another.

Edit: And then there's the question of who's getting a transfer, who's being used anyways, etc.

Edited December 9, 2010 by Rewjeo

[nflchamp]

Because pretending that transfer units work in a vacuum and aren't affected by other transfers at all is perfectly acceptable when it directly contradicts reality? The reality is that transfer units are on a transfer team and their performance is affected by this - not their 'performance relative to the rest of the team', but their 'performance relative to the enemies'. And if we want to compare a transfer unit on a transfer team directly to someone on a non-transfer team, then we can because they fight the same enemies in the same chapters.

And I think that this will lead to a more accurate tier list in any case.

And why does transferring only one unit not reflect reality. I've only transferred 2 units before, Marcia and Mia. They'd effectively be in a void until 3-11. They'd probably be in different armies in part 4, too. It seems to me that reality generally kept units in a void this time.

As has been stated plenty already: who the hell gets transfers? Reality changes for every transfer. If you can't reconcile this even having multiple transfers for only resource distribution becomes a ridiculous chore that will never get anywhere.

Edited December 9, 2010 by nflchamp

[Anouleth]

And why does transferring only one unit not reflect reality. I've only transferred 2 units before, Marcia and Mia. They'd effectively be in a void until 3-11. They'd probably be in different armies in part 4, too. It seems to me that reality generally kept units in a void this time.

As has been stated plenty already: who the hell gets transfers? Reality changes for every transfer. If you can't reconcile this even having multiple transfers for only resource distribution becomes a ridiculous chore that will never get anywhere.

It is not difficult to get a lot of transfers. I myself have gotten 16 transfers in a single run before. I have more transfers than I know what to do with.

So it's possible to get a transfer for anyone on your team that you plan using in the long-term (in other words, exactly the kind of people that are competition for resources anyway). I mean, how many people does the average efficient player train in Part 3? 5 or 6? Trying to train more is just going to kill your experience gain and stretch an already insufficient number of crowns even further. So even with just 10 transfers, you could probably cover everyone in the game you plan to train, and then some.

Besides, there's already the possibility of boss abuse. Given the existence of transfer units such as Reyson (T) and Elincia (T), I'd say it's already pretty heavily implied by the current list of transfers that there's no problem with spending a lot of time in order to get anyone to maximum level.

[Junkhead]

Getting Boyd to double is something beautiful.

[nflchamp]

It is not difficult to get a lot of transfers. I myself have gotten 16 transfers in a single run before. I have more transfers than I know what to do with.

So it's possible to get a transfer for anyone on your team that you plan using in the long-term (in other words, exactly the kind of people that are competition for resources anyway). I mean, how many people does the average efficient player train in Part 3? 5 or 6? Trying to train more is just going to kill your experience gain and stretch an already insufficient number of crowns even further. So even with just 10 transfers, you could probably cover everyone in the game you plan to train, and then some.

Besides, there's already the possibility of boss abuse. Given the existence of transfer units such as Reyson (T) and Elincia (T), I'd say it's already pretty heavily implied by the current list of transfers that there's no problem with spending a lot of time in order to get anyone to maximum level.

But you were arguing about what happens in reality. What happens in reality is that I only transfer 2 characters that never interact. Your argument that the list doesn't reflect reality falls apart. The fact that you can do it means nothing.

[Colonel M]

Getting Boyd to double is something beautiful.

Now about hitting the enemy...

[Florete]

It is not difficult to get a lot of transfers. I myself have gotten 16 transfers in a single run before. I have more transfers than I know what to do with.

So it's possible to get a transfer for anyone on your team that you plan using in the long-term (in other words, exactly the kind of people that are competition for resources anyway). I mean, how many people does the average efficient player train in Part 3? 5 or 6? Trying to train more is just going to kill your experience gain and stretch an already insufficient number of crowns even further. So even with just 10 transfers, you could probably cover everyone in the game you plan to train, and then some.

Besides, there's already the possibility of boss abuse. Given the existence of transfer units such as Reyson (T) and Elincia (T), I'd say it's already pretty heavily implied by the current list of transfers that there's no problem with spending a lot of time in order to get anyone to maximum level.

Everyone you plan to train? Now how do we know that's the same as everyone I plan to train? Try again, Anouleth.

As for Reyson and Elincia: BEXP.

[RNG Princess]

Buy a lot of Ward staves in PoR and spam staff with Elincia ^_^ and give that BEXP to someone else.

Now about hitting the enemy...

Forge him something

BTW this is the tactic i use for 5 turning 1-7 and deploying Fiona. (Jill, Zihark, Tormod, and Sothe are trasnfered though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y-WnmA7XiQ

Edited December 11, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

But you were arguing about what happens in reality. What happens in reality is that I only transfer 2 characters that never interact. Your argument that the list doesn't reflect reality falls apart. The fact that you can do it means nothing.

I think it's a lot more reasonable to assume that the player will transfer multiple units than transfer just one. Although I guess it is still an possibility, so I concede there's nothing wrong about a tier list that assumes transfers in a void, although I still think that taking other transfers into account is more representative of transfer runs in general.

Everyone you plan to train? Now how do we know that's the same as everyone I plan to train? Try again, Anouleth.

As for Reyson and Elincia: BEXP.

It's called 'planning ahead'. In other words, a player can secure transfers for everyone they plan to train pretty easily. Unless they decide to train like, 10 characters at once, but that's such a stupid idea I don't think it's worth bearing in mind.

BTW this is the tactic i use for 5 turning 1-7 and deploying Fiona. (Jill, Zihark, Tormod, and Sothe are trasnfered though).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y-WnmA7XiQ

You don't need the transfers to do the 5 turn, but it's nice for more exp for Jill. I think it makes it sliiiiightly more reliable as well wrt Tormod's accuracy on the Mages.

(no +str transfer on Jill? i am disappoint

plus, you could have given Jill both of the Armour kills on the first turn if you had placed Volug and Fiona behind her)

[RNG Princess]

I think it's a lot more reasonable to assume that the player will transfer multiple units than transfer just one. Although I guess it is still an possibility, so I concede there's nothing wrong about a tier list that assumes transfers in a void, although I still think that taking other transfers into account is more representative of transfer runs in general.

It's called 'planning ahead'. In other words, a player can secure transfers for everyone they plan to train pretty easily. Unless they decide to train like, 10 characters at once, but that's such a stupid idea I don't think it's worth bearing in mind.

You don't need the transfers to do the 5 turn, but it's nice for more exp for Jill. I think it makes it sliiiiightly more reliable as well wrt Tormod's accuracy on the Mages.

(no +str transfer on Jill? i am disappoint

plus, you could have given Jill both of the Armour kills on the first turn if you had placed Volug and Fiona behind her)

Jill does have a str transfer ^_^ and I didn't want to give both armors to Jill because I wanted Nolan and Micaiah to get some cexp out of him as well.

[Anouleth]

Jill does have a str transfer ^_^ and I didn't want to give both armors to Jill because I wanted Nolan and Micaiah to get some cexp out of him as well.

She definitely doesn't have a strength transfer. Look at her level-up at 1:40. 11strength. That's her 'normal' base. She starts with 13 if she got a strength transfer. She has SKL/SPD/DEF, but not STR (or HP :( )

[RNG Princess]

She definitely doesn't have a strength transfer. Look at her level-up at 1:40. 11strength. That's her 'normal' base. She starts with 13 if she got a strength transfer. She has SKL/SPD/DEF, but not STR (or HP :( )

oh my you're right! No wonder she's not as strong as I remember ^^'. She's still useful just a little more pricey with forges ^^'. I was probably so busy trying to get as many characters to cap something that I forgot to cap her str.

>.< her str stat was 25 in POR! I thought that was capped but she wasn't ^^'

Edited December 11, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Florete]

It's called 'planning ahead'. In other words, a player can secure transfers for everyone they plan to train pretty easily. Unless they decide to train like, 10 characters at once, but that's such a stupid idea I don't think it's worth bearing in mind.

Haven't used this one in a while....

Everyone's going to transfer different characters. How can you be so sure that, say, the one who transfers Boyd also transfers Titania to drop the cost of Boyd(T)'s Speedwing? Yes, you can plan ahead, but guess what? Everyone's plans are different. Don't forget that the more units on the team that are transferred, the lower the impact of any one of them is, which defeats the purpose of adding transferred units to the list in the first place.

And given that there are 10 Endgame slots, why is 10 at once "such a stupid idea?"

[Narga_Rocks]

And given that there are 10 Endgame slots, why is 10 at once "such a stupid idea?"

I think he's just saying during part 3, 10 at once is a dumb idea.

You have options like Jill and Nolan. You have 4 royals and 1 pseudo royal. Since you won't be needing 10 units out of the GM's part 3 in endgame, you don't need to train 10 units in part 3.

Not that it really changes the rest of what you and I are trying to say to him. Just thought I should point that out.

[Anouleth]

Haven't used this one in a while....

Everyone's going to transfer different characters. How can you be so sure that, say, the one who transfers Boyd also transfers Titania to drop the cost of Boyd(T)'s Speedwing? Yes, you can plan ahead, but guess what? Everyone's plans are different. Don't forget that the more units on the team that are transferred, the lower the impact of any one of them is, which defeats the purpose of adding transferred units to the list in the first place.

If the player is going to use Titania and wants the additional speed, he or she will probably give her a transfer. Say you plan to use Jill, Nolan, Nephenee, Shinon, Titania, Ike, Mia, Gatrie and Haar in the long-term. Obviously you will not go ahead and give a transfer to Rolf while neglecting Titania. After all, you only need to get 8 transfers to cover everyone you care about, not a difficult task. And the people you don't plan to use in the long term, like Oscar or Soren? Well, they're irrelevant because if we're not using them, we're obviously not going to consider them for resources anyway.

In your example, whether we give a transfer to Titania or not depends on whether the player plans on using her. Obviously, a player that plans on using Titania will give her a transfer, freeing up the speedwing for other people. And a player that does not plan on using Titania... well, it doesn't matter what he does, because if he's not going to use her, he's definitely not going to give her a speedwing. He might transfer her if he has time and leftover experience, he might not, but the only person who is relevant for resources is Titania (T).

And given that there are 10 Endgame slots, why is 10 at once "such a stupid idea?"

10 at once is a stupid idea. You really don't have enough enough experience lying around that you can afford to try and train 10 characters in Part 3, and if you did you would just end up with 10 underlevelled people (and fizzle out in Part 4). I mean, I was training like, 5 or 6 people, and I really didn't end up with high levels. If we're going to assume a degree of competence on the part of the player when it comes to protecting healers/executing strategies/distributing resources, it stands to reason that they won't try to spread their experience too thin.

Perhaps 10 isn't that ridiculous if you want to add in later, less expensive characters like Ulki or Tanith and also try to train Jill and Zihark on the DB side, but I hope I've made my point clear, that you are unlikely to have to make a choice about who you want to transfer.

[Florete]

In your example, whether we give a transfer to Titania or not depends on whether the player plans on using her. Obviously, a player that plans on using Titania will give her a transfer, freeing up the speedwing for other people. And a player that does not plan on using Titania... well, it doesn't matter what he does, because if he's not going to use her, he's definitely not going to give her a speedwing. He might transfer her if he has time and leftover experience, he might not, but the only person who is relevant for resources is Titania (T).

I think your problem here is that units can be used regardless of whether or not they were transferred, and won't necessarily be neglected just because they don't have a transfer while others do. For example, I'm working on a transfer run now that includes such units as Boyd and Rolf but not Titania. It's not because I plan to never use her with this transfer, but because I don't tend to use her as often and if I do, she won't need the transfer as much as units like Boyd and Rolf would; she's easier to use immediately and easier to keep up to par.

There's also the simple possibility that someone just doesn't want to do another transfer run. Maybe they have a run that includes such units as Nephenee, Ilyana, Mia, Rolf, Ike, Boyd, Haar, etc. but no Titania, and even though they might want a Titania they feel it isn't worth going through 29 chapters of PoR to get it, so they just use what they already have since it's still good.

10 at once is a stupid idea.

Sorry, but it makes me when I ask a question and the first thing I get in response is the same thing repeated that I asked about.

You really don't have enough enough experience lying around that you can afford to try and train 10 characters in Part 3, and if you did you would just end up with 10 underlevelled people (and fizzle out in Part 4). I mean, I was training like, 5 or 6 people, and I really didn't end up with high levels. If we're going to assume a degree of competence on the part of the player when it comes to protecting healers/executing strategies/distributing resources, it stands to reason that they won't try to spread their experience too thin.

If you just mean 10 in part 3 (like Narga also said), then that makes sense. I thought you were referring to 10 overall.

I hope I've made my point clear, that you are unlikely to have to make a choice about who you want to transfer.

You didn't have to make that clear. The problem remains since everyone is different.

[Anouleth]

I think your problem here is that units can be used regardless of whether or not they were transferred, and won't necessarily be neglected just because they don't have a transfer while others do. For example, I'm working on a transfer run now that includes such units as Boyd and Rolf but not Titania. It's not because I plan to never use her with this transfer, but because I don't tend to use her as often and if I do, she won't need the transfer as much as units like Boyd and Rolf would; she's easier to use immediately and easier to keep up to par.

There's also the simple possibility that someone just doesn't want to do another transfer run. Maybe they have a run that includes such units as Nephenee, Ilyana, Mia, Rolf, Ike, Boyd, Haar, etc. but no Titania, and even though they might want a Titania they feel it isn't worth going through 29 chapters of PoR to get it, so they just use what they already have since it's still good.

I think that you're kind of missing out on an opportunity, then. Titania is relatively easy to transfer (since she has only 19 levels to gain as opposed to the 30+ of most units), and especially if you plan to accompany that with a Boyd transfer, you'd want to free up a Speedwing for him. Unless you're trying to pull out a lot of transfers in a single run, in which case I'd question whether all those transfers are as worthwhile as Titania. Or it might be that you just don't care about efficiency in this instance :P

But I guess that you're correct. It's unrealistic to expect that all transfer runs will be 'perfect'.

Sorry, but it makes me when I ask a question and the first thing I get in response is the same thing repeated that I asked about.

Um, I guess I had an emphasis on the 'is' in my head.

If you just mean 10 in part 3 (like Narga also said), then that makes sense. I thought you were referring to 10 overall.

Well, I wasn't really thinking about the number, I just threw it out. 10 is probably reasonable over the entire game, in fairness, since you want extra people for Part 4 anyway. But a lot of those people can't get transfers in the first place, like Nolan.

[Florete]

I think that you're kind of missing out on an opportunity, then. Titania is relatively easy to transfer (since she has only 19 levels to gain as opposed to the 30+ of most units), and especially if you plan to accompany that with a Boyd transfer, you'd want to free up a Speedwing for him. Unless you're trying to pull out a lot of transfers in a single run, in which case I'd question whether all those transfers are as worthwhile as Titania. Or it might be that you just don't care about efficiency in this instance :P

Like I said, I don't tend to use her as often. On most runs I'll use her up until about 3-5 and then drop her from combat (possibly still deployed for various utility). My transfer run is based on who I want use, not necessarily who's good or grants the greatest overall benefit. I actually did consider Titania for it, but the combination of me not using her as often + her being easy enough to use dropped her out.

And by the way, this isn't a "tier" transfer, or whatever, if that matters (it shouldn't, since this was about who gets transferred, not what stats). This is the team I am (still) working on, if you care to see for yourself.

[Anouleth]

Like I said, I don't tend to use her as often. On most runs I'll use her up until about 3-5 and then drop her from combat (possibly still deployed for various utility). My transfer run is based on who I want use, not necessarily who's good or grants the greatest overall benefit. I actually did consider Titania for it, but the combination of me not using her as often + her being easy enough to use dropped her out.

And by the way, this isn't a "tier" transfer, or whatever, if that matters (it shouldn't, since this was about who gets transferred, not what stats). This is the team I am (still) working on, if you care to see for yourself.

Well, most of those transfers aren't even considered by the tier list due to being so difficult to manipulate (lol, transferring everything on Mist). I admit I'm impressed by the Tanith transfer, though. And I guess you probably didn't do it for a Hard Mode run.

But I don't think it would be impossible to stretch that to accomodate more people. Obviously, for you it would be difficult because you need such heavy stat manipulation. But you also seem to intend to use more people than is probably efficient for Part 3 and 4. 7 GMs, one of which is Mist.

Edited December 11, 2010 by Mr. Know-it-all-Anouleth

[Florete]

Well, most of those transfers aren't even considered by the tier list due to being so difficult to manipulate (lol, transferring everything on Mist).

That's why I said it isn't a "tier" transfer.

And I guess you probably didn't do it for a Hard Mode run.

You mean in RD? I almost always do Hard mode in this game.

But I don't think it would be impossible to stretch that to accomodate more people. Obviously, for you it would be difficult because you need such heavy stat manipulation. But you also seem to intend to use more people than is probably efficient for Part 3 and 4. 7 GMs, one of which is Mist.

This isn't meant for a single run. I intend this to be the one transfer I use for a lot of my future runs. And do you mean I could transfer more people? Maybe on EM, but I don't have a fixed disc. Otherwise, I'm stretching limits as it is by getting as much BEXP as possible, killing enough enemies within that time frame as possible, and using this to suck every drop of BEXP I can. I'll see by the end if I actually could have done more.

[Anouleth]

This isn't meant for a single run. I intend this to be the one transfer I use for a lot of my future runs. And do you mean I could transfer more people? Maybe on EM, but I don't have a fixed disc. Otherwise, I'm stretching limits as it is by getting as much BEXP as possible, killing enough enemies within that time frame as possible, and using this to suck every drop of BEXP I can. I'll see by the end if I actually could have done more.

I'll take your word for it, since I haven't played FE9 NM in about four years. But with the ease of getting staff exp, getting Mist up should be a snap. Same for Elincia (although I guess you'd want to abuse for stats in the base).

[Florete]

Since we're on the subject and because I want to post this but have nowhere else to put it I just wanted to mention that I have Astrid on PoR at 20/0 with 39 HP (max without a Robe), capped Str, Skl, Spd, Def, and Res, yet only 5 Luck.

[General Spoon]

What I'd like to know is why this method of tiering is being called into question NOW, instead of (relatively) LONG AGO.

Edited December 12, 2010 by General Spoon

[Anouleth]

What I'd like to know is why this method of tiering is being called into question NOW, instead of (relatively) LONG AGO.

I'd be highly surprised if when this came up, not a single person voiced similar issues to mine.

Although I still have one issue with the transfers - that some transfers are permitted while other, similar ones aren't. The specific transfers that aren't brought up but are still pretty easy to get are:

-Strength on Shinon. He already needs a Secret Book and a Speedwing for skl/spd respectively, an Energy Drop for strength shouldn't be out of the question. He's 3.65 off capping, he gets 80 from growth points and 200 from Energy Drop, that leaves 85 to get from bands/weapons.

-Defence on Jill. She's 315 off capping, that's a band + dracoshield.

-Skill on Boyd. Funnily, he's actually closer to capping this than speed (needs 270 points instead of 285).

-Skill on Rolf. Band + Book.

-Strength on Brom. Only 205 off capping - easy even when he needs to superglue the Knight Ward to his forehead.

-Strength on Tanith. 220 off capping, another easy one.

-Defense on Geoffrey. Easiest of all - he's only 195 off capping, same as Makalov.

-Strength on Haar. Quite difficult since he needs appropiate Band and weapon continuously for his whole life as well as a drop, but still feasible.

-Both Tibarn and Naesala can cap Strength with a Drop. Obviously not something most people would consider with the much easier Giffca available, but Naesala gets some benefit from this, more than Giffca does.

Some of these could easily be added to the current list, although most obviously will have little effect (lol, strength on Haar)

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

You've got to consider levels left for growth on some of these. There is a max of .15 additional alterations per level (band/enemy/weapon).

-Strength on Shinon. He already needs a Secret Book and a Speedwing for skl/spd respectively, an Energy Drop for strength shouldn't be out of the question. He's 3.65 off capping, he gets 80 from growth points and 200 from Energy Drop, that leaves 85 to get from bands/weapons.

Has 19 levels left, essentially 2.85 points for speed and skill (1.7 and 1.85 needed), though I'd think it very odd we were giving Shinon of all people these transfers based on stat boosters. The issue of stat booster distribution is vague, but energy drop is possibility, but it's also possible for many others.

-Defence on Jill. She's 315 off capping, that's a band + dracoshield.

Yeah, unfortunately, she just misses being able to transfer all without a dracoshield.

-Skill on Boyd. Funnily, he's actually closer to capping this than speed (needs 270 points instead of 285).

This should work, seeing as most of the things that boost speed speed also boost skill.

-Skill on Rolf. Band + Book.

Probably doesn't need a book even.

-Strength on Brom. Only 205 off capping - easy even when he needs to superglue the Knight Ward to his forehead.

Not as simple as that, since alterations that raise strength mostly lower speed, but that's only at a glance.

-Strength on Tanith. 220 off capping, another easy one.

Not enough levels.

-Defense on Geoffrey. Easiest of all - he's only 195 off capping, same as Makalov.

Not enough levels.

-Strength on Haar. Quite difficult since he needs appropiate Band and weapon continuously for his whole life as well as a drop, but still feasible.

Again, resource distribution vagueness.

-Both Tibarn and Naesala can cap Strength with a Drop. Obviously not something most people would consider with the much easier Giffca available, but Naesala gets some benefit from this, more than Giffca does.

Pretty much.

I think the most glaring discrepancy is Tormod, but a lot of these non-changes may just be due to lack of impact.