OMG it's a tier list

[Dark Sage]

Sometimes, life sucks. In those situations, I say the same thing: deal with it.

I can't please everyone. That's a fact of life. Adhering to the previous audience for tier lists no longer works, so I'm switching things up. If you can't be part of the new audience, I'm sorry, but you might just have to accept that it isn't for you.

Nice work, you're now on the same intellectual level as Snowy.

[General Banzai]

5 Spd*

And 11 HP and 7 Def is pretty big. Plus you failed to mention Renning's +3 Move and Canto. And Hammer time in 4-E-1. And Wyrmslayer against those enemies Bastian is so good against.

Sounds like a tier gap to me.

Bastian also has +7 res on Renning, which is actually relevant in 33% of the maps he's in

Also if Renning gets wyrmslayer he doesn't have 1-2 range for F-4 and F-5

I may be wrong on this, but don't mounted units get their move nerfed in interior maps?

[Ema Skye]

They do get a move nerf but 4-E isn't considered an indoor map.

[dondon151]

But a "casual" tier list shouldn't be made to "foster discussion", rather to provide a functional utilitarian use for new players

it's why in my original arguments about the need for a casual tier, I suggested that the ranking within each tier (high, mid, etc) shouldn't be a variable, rather than differences between whole tiers. This is actually to deliberately squash the need for discussion. There should be a full-standing, widely agreed-upon list that new players can look at at a glance and understand who will make their gameplaying experience the easiest

a tier list that is specifically targeted to novice players has to make the judgment call of throwing out veteran arguments based on the argument from intuition. the problem with this is that the evidence for those arguments has already been made elsewhere. so everyone would have to pretend as if they didn't know things that can already be known.

regarding your casual tier, i'm not sure why one can't just look at this tier list and purge the significance of in-tier ordering.

It was obvious to me the first time I played H5 (which was my 2nd time playing the game at all). When I saw how many mounts/armors I was facing and the kind of damage the Wing Spear could do, it seemed only logical to give it more power.

and it was obvious to me the second time i played FE6 that marcus, zealot, and shanna were all criminally underrated units. so what? literally every decision that one makes in this game for the goal of efficiency is "only logical." just because you found something to be intuitive doesn't mean that everyone else arrived at the conclusion in the same way, or even at the same conclusion. i'm sure that jushiro found plowing resources into jill to be "only logical."

Please, don't ask me to recall anything about knowledge in FE11, because all I ever had I got from just playing the game twice.

whether you can or can't recall FE11's tiering history is irrelevant. that's why i'm here to do it for you. i am merely stating facts.

Hey, if we get to that point where all the tier list positions seem so natural that there's nothing left to discuss, is that really a bad thing?

i don't suppose that you picked up on my implication that we have reached this point already. the only time where tier lists for older games become active nowadays is when somebody innovates and also cares enough to post about it in the tier list.

You don't have to be here.

Or we can be optimistic, try to work with something new, and see where it takes us. If you don't want to be a part of it, you don't have to click on the topic.

what are you going to do, ban me from a tier list? if i walk in and point out inconsistencies x, y, and z that you're going to introduce to the tier list, is your response going to be the equivalent of plugging your ears and drowning out my criticism with "la la la don't care?"

[Snowy_One]

Not to be a whiner, but shouldn't tiering philosophy stuff be in the tiering philosophy thread?

[Florete]

Nice work, you're now on the same intellectual level as Snowy.

"I don't like what you're doing so you're obviously retarded." (No, Snowy, I don't mean to call you retarded, I'm just quoting the context)

Or maybe Snowy is now on the same intellectual level as me.

Get over it. If this is all you're going to say anymore, just stop posting and wasting both of our time.

Bastian also has +7 res on Renning, which is actually relevant in 33% of the maps he's in

Also if Renning gets wyrmslayer he doesn't have 1-2 range for F-4 and F-5

Renning can use Wyrmslayer for E-3 without blessing it. Only the bosses require blessed weapons to be damaged.

They do get a move nerf but 4-E isn't considered an indoor map.

To clarify: Indoor maps do give movement penalties, but since 4-E isn't considered indoor, they don't get a movement penalty there.

and it was obvious to me the second time i played FE6 that marcus, zealot, and shanna were all criminally underrated units. so what? literally every decision that one makes in this game for the goal of efficiency is "only logical." just because you found something to be intuitive doesn't mean that everyone else arrived at the conclusion in the same way, or even at the same conclusion. i'm sure that jushiro found plowing resources into jill to be "only logical."

Well of course not everyone is going to be able to see the same things. We just have to make judgment calls (like we've been doing all along). Forging is something that is pretty simple. Plowing multiple specific resources into a unit isn't.

whether you can or can't recall FE11's tiering history is irrelevant. that's why i'm here to do it for you. i am merely stating facts.

Okay. Just don't phrase things like "recall this from FE11's tiering."

i don't suppose that you picked up on my implication that we have reached this point already. the only time where tier lists for older games become active nowadays is when somebody innovates and also cares enough to post about it in the tier list.

Uh, isn't that what I'm doing? That's how I see it.

what are you going to do, ban me from a tier list? if i walk in and point out inconsistencies x, y, and z that you're going to introduce to the tier list, is your response going to be the equivalent of plugging your ears and drowning out my criticism with "la la la don't care?"

You're free to try to contribute, of course. But as per any topic, if your posts are merely causing fights for the sake of it, I can tell you to leave. And if all you're ever going to do is tell me how the tier list is dumb, why would you even waste your own time?

It's not like the tier lists before didn't have any inconsistencies. Being unable to explain how they worked is the reason a lot of people couldn't figure out how to contribute.

Not to be a whiner, but shouldn't tiering philosophy stuff be in the tiering philosophy thread?

Technically yes, though this is all per this specific list.

[PKL]

Yeah, Janaff Ulki Nailah should probably happen. Nailah because of her availability (even though she's a monster whenever she's there) and Janaff Ulki because of usual laguz gauge issues. I could see them below Jill (T) and Oscar (T) personally. And IMO, Nephenee(T)>Mia. The transfers make a huge difference for her. Giving her 4 AS more than she would normally have in 2-1 and she has better 1-2 range and about the same chances to ORKO with Adept+crits+Impale. Also, Shinon is too high. Boyd probably is too. Both Marcias also seem a bit too low imo. Transfer Marcia is like the best unit in 3-9 and she's serviceable because of forges later on.

[Dark Sage]

Uh, isn't that what I'm doing? That's how I see it.

>claims to innovate

>tries to get tier lists back to the way they were in 2009

lmao

It's not like the tier lists before didn't have any inconsistencies. Being unable to explain how they worked is the reason a lot of people couldn't figure out how to contribute.

you're correct that old lists always had some inconsistencies. However they were certainly consistent in what they were tiering for (kind of). Tiering in the name of intuitiveness is just a recipe for disaster. How, pray tell, can you make such a list with any kind of consistency? You pointed it out yourself, different people have a different sense of what is intuitive. Which leads to a few possibilities:

1. Make your list based mostly on what you personally find intuitive. Why share the list at all then?

2. Try to come up with a consensus on what is intuitive. This is impossible because nobody can agree on what is intuitive.

3. Do some kind of mix which will be incredibly arbitrary and confusing and the worst of both possible worlds.

Seriously, in the name of making things more accessible to newer people, you're going to confuse the everloving fuck out of them. It's a valid concern, no matter how much you plug your ears to it.

[Florete]

Yeah, Janaff Ulki Nailah should probably happen. Nailah because of her availability (even though she's a monster whenever she's there) and Janaff Ulki because of usual laguz gauge issues. I could see them below Jill (T) and Oscar (T) personally. And IMO, Nephenee(T)>Mia. The transfers make a huge difference for her. Giving her 4 AS more than she would normally have in 2-1 and she has better 1-2 range and about the same chances to ORKO with Adept+crits+Impale. Also, Shinon is too high. Boyd probably is too. Both Marcias also seem a bit too low imo. Transfer Marcia is like the best unit in 3-9 and she's serviceable because of forges later on.

I don't think Shinon is too high. His big problem is being a Sniper, but this game is a lot nicer to them than most since it has fewer but stronger enemies and he's statistically pretty good.

I don't think either Boyd is too high. Boyd (T) gets the Spd to really do well and Boyd already isn't in the greatest position.

Marcia...I'm not sure about. Even with transfers she has some significant Str and durability issues. But first, where do you think she should go?

@Jack Frost: I am no longer going to dignify you with an answer. It's clear that you (and dondon) aren't making an attempt to actually help and are just doing what people always accused SF of doing, which is ignoring new ideas and trying to turn them away completely. There are already people trying to discuss actual tier positions, so I hardly need to prove that there is at least some interest.

[dondon151]

@Jack Frost: I am no longer going to dignify you with an answer. It's clear that you (and dondon) aren't making an attempt to actually help and are just doing what people always accused SF of doing, which is ignoring new ideas and trying to turn them away completely.

copout copout copout

it's hard to not see the irony here when SF really pioneered the concepts of efficiency and LTC in the first place, and i'm certainly not ashamed to toot my own horn by asserting that i was part of that movement. instead of ignoring new ideas, we're tossing away old ideas that have been proven before to not work (and are just being re-branded as new ideas by none other than you).

There are already people trying to discuss actual tier positions, so I hardly need to prove that there is at least some interest.

yes, and notice that none of them are interested because of your reactionary attitude towards strategic innovation, but are rather interested in spite of it.

if you're accusing me of not being helpful towards tier discussion, that can be easily remedied. i agree with most everything that PKL said in his previous three posts. i don't feel the need to parrot him and contribute nothing new.

Edited October 7, 2013 by dondon151

[Dark Sage]

Hey, since I apparently am not contributing, let me fix that. How about we revamp the rules on Transfer characters? Some of the rules just don't reflect the reality of the game. Like under the current rules, we can't take into account Titania (T) when talking about Boyd (T), which is crucial to him in various ways (like taking a speedwing) or how we can't compare a Transfer charcter to a non-transfer character.

Also Nephenee (T)> Mia completely. The greatly improved Part 2 and 3 along with forged Javelins really do top whatever it is Mia does better (which is what again? I was never clear on that).

[Redwall]

Well of course not everyone is going to be able to see the same things. We just have to make judgment calls (like we've been doing all along). Forging is something that is pretty simple. Plowing multiple specific resources into a unit isn't.

I can just as easily claim that plowing multiple specific resources into a unit, especially one who has high Mov (enabling her to see more combat and accrue more EXP), is pretty simple. Several pages ago, you (or Narga, I forget) claimed that using high-Mov units was obvious. Using units with high stats should also be obvious. When you put them together to get a beefy, mobile unit, what do you get? A unit that can snowball quickly: strong, mobile units get better at a faster rate since they can endure more EP exposure. This argument for Jill (T) moving up to top tier is certainly intuitive to me.

What is the basis for your "judgment call" being more accurate than mine? You're someone with far more experience in FE debating than many posters in this thread (including me), which clouds your perceptions of what is obvious since many tactics discussed in these threads are somewhat esoteric.

If you do not wish to address that previous question (or even if you do), please address this old-ish but relevant quote, which you ignored in your response to me:

Tier debating is obviously full of things that cannot be quantified to specificity, like the worth of availability [...] etc. All of that stuff is a mess in any kind of tier list, but the inability to nail down precise specifics is not fatal because there is an over-arching goal that all of those things tie into, like S-ranking or minimizing turn counts. [...] This is the first kind of subjectivity.

The second kind of subjectivity is the definitional sort, that's not directly anchored to the ranking goal. Or in other words, the arguments that are conducted purely with dueling opinions, the ones leave an aftertaste of bullshit in your mouth. See: any argument about [...] whether <ill-defined imaginary player> would do <XYZ>, or the "likelihood" of some event that is not the result of the RNG.

The non-perfect player guideline [that is qualitatively no different from what you, RFoF, are now proposing] in this list is a subjective factor of the second kind, masquerading as one of the first. It has elements that can be adjudicated in terms of the tier list goals in at least some minimal fashion [...] But it also has elements where you just have a potential clash of opinions on the definition of something, with no obvious way to resolve it.

It's clear that you (and dondon) aren't making an attempt to actually help and are just doing what people always accused SF of doing, which is ignoring new ideas and trying to turn them away completely.

Well, again, this is directly relevant to Jill's tier-list position.

[Florete]

instead of ignoring new ideas, we're tossing away old ideas that have been proven before to not work (and are just being re-branded as new ideas by none other than you).

Or maybe we never gave them a proper chance, or they just weren't being done right.

Hey, since I apparently am not contributing, let me fix that. How about we revamp the rules on Transfer characters? Some of the rules just don't reflect the reality of the game. Like under the current rules, we can't take into account Titania (T) when talking about Boyd (T), which is crucial to him in various ways (like taking a speedwing) or how we can't compare a Transfer charcter to a non-transfer character.

Also Nephenee (T)> Mia completely. The greatly improved Part 2 and 3 along with forged Javelins really do top whatever it is Mia does better (which is what again? I was never clear on that).

We can compare a transfer character to a non-transfer character. I mean, that's all we can do currently. The problem with comparing transfer characters to each other is that we can't possibly transfer everyone at once, and even if we could, some units might turn out lower on the list as a result, which makes considering them at all pointless. In fact, it would probably need a completely separate list.

However, I never really liked considering all transfer units in a void, so if we can consider multiple at once in a reasonable way I'd be down with that. But I don't have that solution at the moment.

And I don't think I mentioned it, but I do agree with Neph(T) > Mia.

I can just as easily claim that plowing multiple specific resources into a unit, especially one who has high Mov (enabling her to see more combat and accrue more EXP), is pretty simple. Several pages ago, you (or Narga, I forget) claimed that using high-Mov units was obvious. Using units with high stats should also be obvious. When you put them together to get a beefy, mobile unit, what do you get? A unit that can snowball quickly: strong, mobile units get better at a faster rate since they can endure more EP exposure. This argument for Jill (T) moving up to top tier is certainly intuitive to me.

Using the right stat boosters on units at all is not very simple. Unlike BEXP or forging, your options are very limited and go away forever. Knowing what Jill needs to function properly also requires more foresight of the game than something like forges. So no, I would not say that is simple.

What is the basis for your "judgment call" being more accurate than mine? You're someone with far more experience in FE debating than many posters in this thread (including me), which clouds your perceptions of what is obvious since many tactics discussed in these threads are somewhat esoteric.

This argument might be accurate if you weren't just trying to prove to me that something is more intuitive than I believe it to be. Still, though, it's really not that hard to think of how people play when not going for optimization.

I don't see how that Interceptor quote is much different from what dondon or Jack Frost are saying. It's also three years old.

[Vykan_12]

If you want to have a rational discussion about Jill’s position in the tier list, a couple things need to be made clear.

-Transfers or no?

-What resources is she assumed to take? Seraph robe/energy drop/dracoshield in 1-6-1? What about skills like paragon, adept, beastfoe?

-Who’s she supporting? What level does she reach C/B/A?

-How fast is she levelling? What level is she assumed to be in milestone chapters like 3-6 and 3-13?

The last point is especially important. I had a quick look at a 20/1 transfer Jill w/ seraph + draco and she was still getting 2-3HKOed by the most common tiger in 3-6, which doesn’t exactly put her on Haar’s level combat-wise. But then if she’s like 20/5 in 3-6 with 2 robes and an A Volug support, that really changes things.

[General Banzai]

I was under the impression from what people are saying that Jill isn't 20 anything because she's getting promoted after 1-6

[Snowy_One]

"I don't like what you're doing so you're obviously retarded." (No, Snowy, I don't mean to call you retarded, I'm just quoting the context)

Or maybe Snowy is now on the same intellectual level as me.

Get over it. If this is all you're going to say anymore, just stop posting and wasting both of our time.

Not to sound snarky, but I'm NOT stupid. I've been debating tiers since FE9 came out and held my own for years. I just disagree a lot with the LTC-focused standards. I don't go about saying stuff like 'bench every unit who isn't absolutely the best' or the like.

Technically yes, though this is all per this specific list.

Okay. Fine with me. Though if we're talking about this list, can we actually focus on debating some units up/down?

Yeah, Janaff Ulki Nailah should probably happen. Nailah because of her availability (even though she's a monster whenever she's there) and Janaff Ulki because of usual laguz gauge issues. I could see them below Jill (T) and Oscar (T) personally. And IMO, Nephenee(T)>Mia. The transfers make a huge difference for her. Giving her 4 AS more than she would normally have in 2-1 and she has better 1-2 range and about the same chances to ORKO with Adept+crits+Impale. Also, Shinon is too high. Boyd probably is too. Both Marcias also seem a bit too low imo. Transfer Marcia is like the best unit in 3-9 and she's serviceable because of forges later on.

I'm not so sure. While it's true Nephenee's Part 2 and 3 will be improved, Part 2 is short and Mia's Part 3 and 4 are still solid without the transfers and she will become about as close to a second Ike as we can get in the game. There is a reason she's the favored Alondite unit and usually gets it barring a few specific setups after-all. How well does Nephenee (T) handle in Part 4, cause that's probably going to be the biggest deciding factor for both Nephenee and Mia.

And no, I'm not against putting Nephenee up a bit. I just want to make sure it's for the right reasons. Also, how is Nephenee moving up above Nolan and Jill? She needs to surpass them to get to Mia.

Semi-related but... Maybe we can combine some of the N/T units a bit? Like Ulki. His transfer only gives him STR, yet it's a big enough difference to put Janaff between him transferred and not? And why is there a 'Giffca (T)' followed by a 'Cany/Giffca?' Why not just rank Giffca higher overall? Not actually arguing for tier-positions here, just cleaning the list up a bit.

Also, maybe we should give the dancers their own, separate, tier? Dancing is situational at best and a player can easily play through just fine without using it. Even if it's a massive enhancer, how valuable it is depends entirely on what the player is shooting for and that value simply will not remain constant between goals and playstyles, far more so than any one unit. This is especially true since every other unit on the list is either a fighter (and thusly easily comparable) or a healer supporting a fighter (healing is always useful, but we have plenty in this game). If they do stay in their current places it should be at least considered as to why they are there and how a unit can move above, below, or in-between them. Like, what would it take for Nailah to be better than Leanne, but worse than Rafiel? Or Volug worse than Reyson, but better than Rafiel?

Edited October 7, 2013 by Snowy_One

[XeKr]

If you want to have a rational discussion about Jill’s position in the tier list, a couple things need to be made clear.

-Transfers or no?

-What resources is she assumed to take? Seraph robe/energy drop/dracoshield in 1-6-1? What about skills like paragon, adept, beastfoe?

-Who’s she supporting? What level does she reach C/B/A?

-How fast is she levelling? What level is she assumed to be in milestone chapters like 3-6 and 3-13?

The last point is especially important. I had a quick look at a 20/1 transfer Jill w/ seraph + draco and she was still getting 2-3HKOed by the most common tiger in 3-6, which doesn’t exactly put her on Haar’s level combat-wise. But then if she’s like 20/5 in 3-6 with 2 robes and an A Volug support, that really changes things.

Celes “claims” that Jill does not need to be early promoted, and is 20/1 by 3-6. I ran the numbers a while earlier for Jill (N). See below.

Assuming that bexp gave levels as normal (in reality a bit worse) or Jill gets all her levels w/o bexp, 20/1 Jill with no transfers has ~64.7% chance of at least 20 Spd to double the 16 Spd Tigers. She has ~65.6% chance for at least 44 Hp given 2 Seraphs. She has ~68.1% chance of having at least 19 Def, given a Draco. The chance of all 3 occurring is 28.9%.

This is exactly why averages are no good. >_>

Now there is a Speedwing for Spd (don’t exactly know who else wants it, but it brings the benchmark to 97.8%). One could also relax the numbers slightly to something like 43 hp (89.1%), 18 Def (92.5%) to barely avoid the 3hko from 39 atk Tigers, but it’s still 80.5% to meet all 3 numbers.

Note some overall percentages are lazy multiplications, but should be in the ballpark. Each binomial result should be mostly correct. There’s also some potential bexp silliness and handwaving, but oh well.

Of course, Celes prefers a far more strict turn-focused playstyle than is otherwise accepted (and recall, he thinks Jill is the absolute best in the game, which none of us are currently claiming). This actually makes Jill better in a sense, as one could imagine leniency in strategies getting her a few more levels than Celes claims, which eases the numbers.

It’s fairly apparent from the above that Jill (T) is way better off (needing just 2 of 3 of the 2xSeraphs+Draco, instead of all of 2xSeraphs+Draco+Speedwing to meet Celes’ lofty onerounding + 3hko benchmark). It is also possible (assuming this is not necessarily optimal play) that Jill does not need to super-reliably reach the 3hko benchmark (against S rank Tigers) in the first place, as her relative competition is squishy and possibly 2hko’d by some other things/combinations (like Sothe/Zihark) or needs similar statbooster investment anyway (Nolan, who also needs more Spd). She uniquely has flight, which makes it also easier to pick her battles (I suppose, assuming the player is competent or something) and gives her more flexibility in general.

And somebody has to get Beastfoe (err...if it's "intuitive" enough to obtain) or Paragon, so I assume Jill, who has the best beorc Spd/Def combination (faster than Nolan, better durability than Sothe/Zihark), is as a good candidate as any. And is quite possibly the best candidate?

(Wait…side note, isn’t it more intuitive to just give her everything and make a super-flier rather than give her less, but precisely just enough to meet benchmarks? Dunno, but I’ll leave you all to argue whether it’s “intuitive” or not to give her those statboosters.)

@RFoF. You say stuff like it’s “simple” or “hard” or “obvious”. Your counterargument to people asking “why is your judgment any better than mine/anyone else” is literally “no you are wrong. trust me i am right”. Not only is it dodging the question, it’s proving their point.

While the ambiguity of intuition is not a huge issue currently (at least to me, you seem fairly reasonable thus far), it has problematic implications for the list in general. While you can ignore it for a time, it is a valid concern (and fundamentally inconsistent, actually). Does this truly not bother you?

EDIT: for some clarification

Edited October 7, 2013 by XeKr

[Da Bear]

There's something I don't understand... why are transfers assumed OPness?

Ike is getting 3 stats that he doesn't cap on average. One of those is a 40% growth that is 4-5 procs off. Another is a 75% growth that is 8-9 procs off.

Neither are incredibly likely to happen.

Jill is getting 4 different transfers. She caps none on average, Spd is incredibly close so I can see that but she's rocking a 40% growth and misses str by 1-2, she also has a 35% def growth that is 3-4 procs away.

Are we assuming blessing? Is it assumed that people will get stat boosters so they can do this?

Edited October 7, 2013 by JSND Has A Dragon Boner

[shadykid]

There's something I don't understand... why are transfers assumed OPness?

Ike is getting 3 stats that he doesn't cap on average. One of those is a 40% growth that is 4-5 procs off. Another is a 75% growth that is 8-9 procs off.

Neither are incredibly likely to happen.

Jill is getting 4 different transfers. She caps none on average, Spd is incredibly close so I can see that but she's rocking a 40% growth and misses str by 1-2, she also has a 35% def growth that is 3-4 procs away.

Are we assuming blessing? Is it assumed that people will get stat boosters so they can do this?

I don't get what you're saying here...?

if you're talking about actually getting the transfers, obviously you rig the levelups

[Da Bear]

I don't get what you're saying here...?

if you're talking about actually getting the transfers, obviously you rig the levelups

That's exactly what I'm talking about

To get Jill to her transfer status, you need to rig levels. Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

Rigging something should always be a problem, the fact that it's in a different game doesn't change that.

Edited October 7, 2013 by JSND Has A Dragon Boner

[PKL]

^Bands exist. They change everything. I think Jill does cap stuff with bands in Fixed Mode.

Edited October 7, 2013 by PKL

[Da Bear]

^Bands exist. They change everything. I think Jill does cap stuff with bands in Fixed Mode.

Totally forgot about those ( never played POR so I have no reason to consider them). That makes sense though, thanks for explaining that.

[Junkhead]

Too be honest, it's pretty sad that tiering for these older games is pretty dead. I mean, yea, it means the people have managed to make a list most people are satisfied with, but also that they have explored every option they deem 'acceptable' and aren't trying new ones. Course, it also means they're playing newer games as well, so that's a plus.

Though I would like it if the joke entries and 'Sword Art Online' tier got removed. Just put Lyre at the bottom.

Yeah FE13 ruined other FE games for me.

maybe people finally realized tiers aren't useful at all save in a drafting context

Alot of arguements and debates are useless here, but it's...for fun, I guess. I think it's fun. It can't really serve a new player very well unless they're given pointers as to how exploit the unit's full potential.

[Baldrick]

For DB skills, Paragon is best put on whoever is being used long term (so Jill followed by Nolan followed by the others). Beast foe is best put on Nolan or Leonardo for crossbow shenanigans.

Intuitiveness needs to be defined. I would call a strategy or tactic intuitive if it could reasonably be formulated by an intelligent player who has absolutely no information beyond what the game gives them. Conclusions such as "forging effective weapons is more effective (ahem) than forging normal weapons" can be reached with some experimentation and careful thought. I can't think of a reason to intuitively conclude "It is best to give Jill all your stat boosters". Possibly, because fliers are inherently better, but how valid that is depends on how fast we're going.

@rfof: i may have missed it, but what is that, incidentally? Do we assume fast enough to hit BEXP limits, some non-standardised 'brisk pace' metric, or something else?

[shadykid]

For DB skills, Paragon is best put on whoever is being used long term (so Jill followed by Nolan followed by the others). Beast foe is best put on Nolan or Leonardo for crossbow shenanigans.

Intuitiveness needs to be defined. I would call a strategy or tactic intuitive if it could reasonably be formulated by an intelligent player who has absolutely no information beyond what the game gives them. Conclusions such as "forging effective weapons is more effective (ahem) than forging normal weapons" can be reached with some experimentation and careful thought. I can't think of a reason to intuitively conclude "It is best to give Jill all your stat boosters". Possibly, because fliers are inherently better, but how valid that is depends on how fast we're going.

@rfof: i may have missed it, but what is that, incidentally? Do we assume fast enough to hit BEXP limits, some non-standardised 'brisk pace' metric, or something else?

well then what's "give FE9 Marcia all your BEXP or statboosters" under