Efficiency Tier List?

[dondon151]

Still doesn't explain why Echidna is getting a free pass on them.

I never implied that, lol. I was saying that it's dumb to suggest that Lot using a promo item doesn't matter when there are buyable stat boosters in the game.

THe huge difference is that like, two people care about Gonzales B, whereas 95% of the cast can benefit from a Dragonshield.

No, that wasn't my point either. If you can say "well we give Echidna an Angelic Robe and a Dragonshield and she's still getting stomped defensively" (which I think you're blowing out of proportion because her defense can be worked around), why wasn't she "getting stompled defensively" when all she had was +2 def from B Gonzo?

While we're on the topic of supports, Echidna can get C Lalum by chapter 16 and B Lalum by chapter 20.

oh also. How in the name of holy crap does a five level gap close by ONE in fourteen chapters?

Lot is stuck at 20/0 until 16x, but you're right, he should be at 20/9 and Echidna should be at --/11.

I question that basis because it's stupid. Promotion items do not cost the player any extra funds unless they need to be bought [Admittedly this is possible what with Hero Crest competition in this game] so tossing an extra stat booster on a prepromoted unit to reward them for "saving money" is just dumb.

If you're using Lot, you're using Dieck. That's 2 Hero Crests. Then you have Rutger, Gonzo, and Fir who are all strong contenders for the second Hero Crest (with OJ and Geese being fairly weak contenders). So yes, Lot does cost us money. If Lot costs 5000 more G than Echidna to use, then it's pretty dumb to not quantify exactly how much 5000 G is. And even if you don't have to physically buy the third Hero Crest (since it comes in chapter 16), you could have sold that Hero Crest for 5000 G that let us buy anything else worth a total of 5000 G.

Edited October 20, 2009 by dondon151

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

I'm assuming Echidna gets an Angelic Robe "for free" because of not requiring a promotion item.

I know the basis for her assuming to get one.

I question that basis because it's stupid. Promotion items do not cost the player any extra funds unless they need to be bought [Admittedly this is possible what with Hero Crest competition in this game] so tossing an extra stat booster on a prepromoted unit to reward them for "saving money" is just dumb.

Selling promotion items?

[grandjackal]

Igrene up to bottom of Lower-Mid and Tate up to above Noah were agreed upon earlier, yes? I would think Tate > OJ as well due to similar (probably better overall?) stats plus flight and an actually viable support.

I'm assuming Echidna gets an Angelic Robe "for free" because of not requiring a promotion item. Getting a second one would be more questionable, I guess.

Igrene moving to bottom of lower-mid was just brought up actually. Do you happen to agree? If so, your thoughts on Fa? Igrene's fate can greaty efect Fa's.

I can agree with Tate>OJ, anyone else agree?

As for Echidna, that's pretty much the case. Only thing that bothers me is that we basically then should be treating her like we just promoted her, which is kind of a weird thought. Either way, I'm not convinced with my hasty decision on Echidna, so I backdown from that.

As for Rutger, I suppose I should just ask-should Rutger being an easy replacement for a gap in a support group like Deick or Clarine's still keep him in top, or the fact he's now optional in the performance of these two factor in a drop due to support dependency? I ask this because me and Red are probably gonna squabble over this forever. Clearly it's agreed and disagreed on both sides, and perhaps I'm not the best to continue arguing my view on it. However, I'm still not thoroughly convinced one way or another.

[dondon151]

Igrene moving to bottom of lower-mid was just brought up actually. Do you happen to agree? If so, your thoughts on Fa? Igrene's fate can greaty efect Fa's.

I don't know exactly where into lower mid Igrene should move without some closer comparisons.

I can agree with Tate>OJ, anyone else agree?

Eh, I guess.

As for Echidna, that's pretty much the case. Only thing that bothers me is that we basically then should be treating her like we just promoted her, which is kind of a weird thought. Either way, I'm not convinced with my hasty decision on Echidna, so I backdown from that.

Echidna definitely should not drop down from high tier.

As for Rutger, I suppose I should just ask-should Rutger being an easy replacement for a gap in a support group like Deick or Clarine's still keep him in top, or the fact he's now optional in the performance of these two factor in a drop due to support dependency? I ask this because me and Red are probably gonna squabble over this forever. Clearly it's agreed and disagreed on both sides, and perhaps I'm not the best to continue arguing my view on it. However, I'm still not thoroughly convinced one way or another.

It's just 1-2 levels of supports, geez...

[grandjackal]

I don't know exactly where into lower mid Igrene should move without some closer comparisons.

Her presence can help Fa perform better (more defense for Ilia countering, or to walk through Sacae as if she has a nigh immunity code), she is sort of like an insta-Klein with Fa around. Douglas is invincible, but his offense is still sort of problematic in Sacae due to acc, then factor brave bow>brave lance in Sacae.

I think she could go above the armors.

However, makes me think more about Fa. Upon doing a closer look on her leveling speed, I realize she basically starts the ability to level after every kill. Not everyone is garunteed to ORKO even now, she has the most accuracy of anyone on the team, she starts basically with 30 mt...

I know I was a tad harsh on her before, but looking her over again, I might be wrong. Basically depends, do you think she could be level 8 by Sigurney's chapter? If so, she performs decently on both routes.

Question: If a unit does no damage, will they choose not to attack it? I ask this, because the AI can be retarded. If so, the support Fa and Igrene has will not pull nomads off of Igrene, so she can Brave bow them. If Fa gets 1 Def, a B Igrene, Troopers will require steel sword to harm Fa, so Fa will counter them.

If that's the case, that's actually a pretty epic Sacae team up.

Eh, I guess.

I see little reason she wouldn't be anyways. Tate>OJ

It's just 1-2 levels of supports, geez...

Fine, so I overreacted.

[Florete]

I can agree with Tate>OJ, anyone else agree?

You know I agree. (I've said before I think she should be Upper Mid)

As for Rutger, I suppose I should just ask-should Rutger being an easy replacement for a gap in a support group like Deick or Clarine's still keep him in top, or the fact he's now optional in the performance of these two factor in a drop due to support dependency? I ask this because me and Red are probably gonna squabble over this forever. Clearly it's agreed and disagreed on both sides, and perhaps I'm not the best to continue arguing my view on it. However, I'm still not thoroughly convinced one way or another.

Did you skip over Narga's post?

Anyway, I took so long on this response because I needed a break from the stress. I opened this to read it and...Well, let's just say I didn't get very far. I've said enough, I don't want to get myself warned.

And so, I give a heartfelt "Thank you very much" to Narga for expanding on my points. Seriously, I mean it.

[grandjackal]

You know I agree. (I've said before I think she should be Upper Mid)

I'm starting to see your point, though do humor the crowd if you want her to get higher.

Did you skip over Narga's post?

Anyway, I took so long on this response because I needed a break from the stress. I opened this to read it and...Well, let's just say I didn't get very far. I've said enough, I don't want to get myself warned.

And so, I give a heartfelt "Thank you very much" to Narga for expanding on my points. Seriously, I mean it.

Fine, so I overreacted.

You seem to have missed that part.

[Tangerine]

Why does this game need a tier list? You have 610 turns to A rank Tactics and you can almost A rank Combat by 2 rounding the entire game. This means EXP and Power are all that matter, which aren't even taken into account on your efficiency tier list. You can support abuse and arena abuse, that pretty much kills the game. Who cares?

Unless you're choosing to beat the game as fast as possible just to do it and not for the Tactics rank, there's really no point. Support arguments are trash, EXP and power don't matter, funds is a joke, combat is a joke...no point.

Edited November 19, 2009 by Moribalken

[Dat Nick]

Of course there's a point, which characters will help you clear the game as fast as possible without stupid ranks like EXP/Funds slowing you down? There's very big differentials here, I believe Percival tops the ranked list?

[Mekkah]

Why does this game need a tier list? You have 610 turns to A rank

Title: With efficiency, and not ranks, in mind

[dondon151]

Percival doesn't contribute to EXP rank.

And really, a ranked tier list is totally pointless. An unranked tier list is not.

[Tangerine]

Of course there's a point, which characters will help you clear the game as fast as possible without stupid ranks like EXP/Funds slowing you down? There's very big differentials here, I believe Percival tops the ranked list?

What's the point in clearing it as fast as possible though? You have 610 turns to A rank a 23 chapter game. It makes the game a total joke. The hardest ranks aren't taken into account on this list.

[dondon151]

No one cares about the fucking ranks.

[Narga_Rocks]

Of course there's a point, which characters will help you clear the game as fast as possible without stupid ranks like EXP/Funds slowing you down? There's very big differentials here, I believe Percival tops the ranked list?

What's the point in clearing it as fast as possible though? You have 610 turns to A rank a 23 chapter game. It makes the game a total joke. The hardest ranks aren't taken into account on this list.

Maybe because 500 turns is less than 610 turns? Faster = better? 610 turns is an (irrelevant) arbitrary number that has absolutely no effect on this tier list. It has about as much effect as Ragnell has on this list. I don't get how you are so hung up on ranks for this list after people already said that this list doesn't care about ranks. That includes the tactics rank.

[Florete]

What's the point in clearing it as fast as possible though? You have 610 turns to A rank a 23 chapter game. It makes the game a total joke. The hardest ranks aren't taken into account on this list.

Better scrap the FE8 list.

Seriously, what the hell kind of reasoning is this? We could tier them based on story contributions if we wanted.

[Dat Nick]

Better scrap the FE8 list.

*highlights the FE9, 10, and DS list while at it*

BALEETED

[Tangerine]

No one cares about the fucking ranks.

What are you, five?

Maybe because 500 turns is less than 610 turns? Faster = better? 610 turns is an (irrelevant) arbitrary number that has absolutely no effect on this tier list. It has about as much effect as Ragnell has on this list. I don't get how you are so hung up on ranks for this list after people already said that this list doesn't care about ranks. That includes the tactics rank.

Well, I was typing my last post up while those two were replying to me, so I didn't see that you weren't taking Tactics into account. I thought that your efficiency tier lists assumed you A ranked Tactics and Combat, considering that's what I was TOLD in the FE7 one. I just don't see the point in a tier without ranks. You can just do whatever you want. For the record, I do think the tier lists for any of the FE games without ranks is a joke.

We could tier them based on story contributions if we wanted.

Sound like a better idea than this, actually.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Moribalken

[Florete]

For the record, I do think the tier lists for any of the FE games without ranks is a joke.

Then don't post here or there. We honestly don't care if you think it's a joke, we'll continue to discuss it. We can set our own goals in these games, we don't need the game to do it for us.

[Tangerine]

Then don't post here or there. We honestly don't care if you think it's a joke, we'll continue to discuss it. We can set our own goals in these games, we don't need the game to do it for us.

Jeez, why are you people so hostile? People on this forum talk a lot of trash about GameFAQs, but at least everyone there is civil. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this in order to possibly contribute myself. The forum would be a better place if everyone took a lesson or two from Narga.

[Florete]

Then don't post here or there. We honestly don't care if you think it's a joke, we'll continue to discuss it. We can set our own goals in these games, we don't need the game to do it for us.

Jeez, why are you people so hostile? People on this forum talk a lot of trash about GameFAQs, but at least everyone there is civil. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this in order to possibly contribute myself. The forum would be a better place if everyone took a lesson or two from Narga.

I didn't mean to be hostile, but you shouldn't be complaining about that when you call our tier lists jokes anyway. If you're trying to understand our way of thinking, that's cool, but don't be offensive while doing it.

Also, we don't "talk a lot of trash about GameFAQs" because we don't talk about them very much. I only visit the Radiant Dawn board there and I can confidently say that 85% of the people there don't know the first thing about tiering FE. Narga can back me up on that.

[Tangerine]

I didn't mean to be hostile, but you shouldn't be complaining about that when you call our tier lists jokes anyway. If you're trying to understand our way of thinking, that's cool, but don't be offensive while doing it.

It wasn't offensive though. GameFAQs tiers just work differently from these ones. Tiers without ranks are foreign to most of us and we're just looking for the most challenge possible. A tier list without ranks is a joke to me, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea. Kind of why I'm still here asking questions instead of dismissing it as worthless. If you took offense, that would be more your problem than mine.

[Florete]

I didn't mean to be hostile, but you shouldn't be complaining about that when you call our tier lists jokes anyway. If you're trying to understand our way of thinking, that's cool, but don't be offensive while doing it.

It wasn't offensive though. GameFAQs tiers just work differently from these ones. Tiers without ranks are foreign to most of us and we're just looking for the most challenge possible. A tier list without ranks is a joke to me, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea. Kind of why I'm still here asking questions instead of dismissing it as worthless. If you took offense, that would be more your problem than mine.

You're calling something I and others enjoy discussing and take seriously a joke and you think that is in no way offensive? What the hell? If you're only trying to understand a foreign idea, that's fine, I get that, but it would have been a lot easier on all of us if you'd put it in a different way. Something like "What's the point of a FE tier list without ranks?" would've been perfect. Your point would've come across easily and no one would have any reason to get mad at you.

Instead, you come in here almost complaining that a tier list for this game even exists and saying there's no point, it's a joke. It also doesn't help that, although this situation is different, this is not the first time we've had to defend active tier lists on this forum and it's getting rather annoying.

Edited November 20, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Methinks you all should cool it.

Mori, it's an efficiency tier list, not ranks. A measure to see who gets you through the game not only as quickly, but as safely as possible (There is a difference between efficiency and a speed run, that being we don't just RNG abuse our way through the game). We don't care about ranks here, because frankly playing with ranks is like playing with handicaps. It's just pointless, and bothces the game as a whole. It's much more fun to just power think your way through it using what resources are available to you, and using what team you have constructed. Withholding gems and having to use people just to succeed in the exp rank (when some people just suck too hard, like Nino...), I can't even begin to imagine how you find that fun.

Your assumption of arguments being garbage such as supports is also rather untrue, as the only thing really unbalanced about this game is that archers and armors suck, and trash characters like Wendy and Sophia. Otherwise, this game is rather fluid in how you can run through the game, given your team. I see perfectly good reasons to make a tier list for this game.

But to get to the point, why do you even care this much to burst into my topic and say it's utterly pointless (cause let's face it, what tier list isn't utterly pointless?)? Maybe you could just choose not to participate because you think it's pointless, but don't just barge in here and knock the broom out of our hands, and then tell us the proper way to pass the time.

There's hostility, but then there's just rudeness. If you don't like the rules, don't play the game, is that hard?

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, I was typing my last post up while those two were replying to me, so I didn't see that you weren't taking Tactics into account. I thought that your efficiency tier lists assumed you A ranked Tactics and Combat, considering that's what I was TOLD in the FE7 one. I just don't see the point in a tier without ranks. You can just do whatever you want. For the record, I do think the tier lists for any of the FE games without ranks is a joke.

which characters will help you clear the game as fast as possible without stupid ranks like EXP/Funds slowing you down?

Well, in his defense he did point out "as fast as possible", so that at least should imply that we aren't caring about hitting 610 turns but blowing that number out of the ballpark. But I get it that the other posts probably weren't there while you were typing, and there posts were more explicit than his. Happens to me all the time (the part about other posts showing up while I type). I try to hit preview post and look at what shows up while I was typing, but I don't always remember.

And why are the other tier lists a joke (like fe9 and fe10)? It's not like we need I.S. to give us a set of criteria under which to argue. We are quite capable of creating our own guidelines under which to argue. Of course, sometimes those guidelines are not 100% clear and some confusion can happen, so that is an advantage of ranks: the guidelines are pretty clear there. But still, we try. As for why we create our own guidelines? Well, for games without ranks that should be obvious. I like RD lots, in fact I haven't played most of the fe games with ranks. I enjoy the whole tier list thing. I'd rather do it on PoR and RD than have to play some other game just to do it. As for the games with ranks, some of us think having to give nubs experience is an awful idea.

Jeez, why are you people so hostile?

I think we are very anti-ranks. That probably has something to do with it. Having to not spend money we have just to make I.S. happy makes people go crazy.

People on this forum talk a lot of trash about GameFAQs, but at least everyone there is civil. I'm just trying to wrap my head around this in order to possibly contribute myself. The forum would be a better place if everyone took a lesson or two from Narga.

If you want to contribute to the non-rank lists, just keep in mind that the idea is to stomp the game. That's the way I look at it, anyway. Efficient stomping. Meaning no boss abuse, of course, because while that could lead to stomping, it isn't really efficient. The most stomp in the least turns. It's why Titania in fe9 is better than most of the others. Well, part of why.

Thank you about the comment on me. I try to be nice. I don't always stick to it, of course.

I didn't mean to be hostile, but you shouldn't be complaining about that when you call our tier lists jokes anyway. If you're trying to understand our way of thinking, that's cool, but don't be offensive while doing it.

Yeah, we just tend to get defensive of our tiers. We don't respond well to things we perceive as attacks on them.

Check this topic.

Also, we don't "talk a lot of trash about GameFAQs" because we don't talk about them very much. I only visit the Radiant Dawn board there and I can confidently say that 85% of the people there don't know the first thing about tiering FE. Narga can back me up on that.

Yeah, most of our comments about Gamefaqs are like our comments about Smash. They just come up from time to time because we like taking shots at easy targets. I think it is very human.

And yeah, I'd say a large portion of the active posters on the RD board of gamefaqs wouldn't know what makes a character great if it... made itself really obvious.

In their defense, many of them don't care. But there are those that say a character is "good" when it clearly isn't, or that you can do [insert nutso idea here] and a character is then good.

It wasn't offensive though. GameFAQs tiers just work differently from these ones. Tiers without ranks are foreign to most of us and we're just looking for the most challenge possible. A tier list without ranks is a joke to me, but that doesn't mean I think it's a bad idea. Kind of why I'm still here asking questions instead of dismissing it as worthless. If you took offense, that would be more your problem than mine.

Well, like I said, calling something we love a joke is probably the quickest way to rile us.

Anyway, for tier lists without ranks, the idea is:

Some ranks impose restrictions that prevent the efficient stomping of a game. Why force us to give exp to a bunch of lame characters when the ones we have raised can cut through a chapter like it's butter? Once you accept our premise, the rest logically follows, and the best characters become those that exemplify excellence. If a unit is so amazing that it will crush the enemies around it and allow us to finish in 8 turns instead of 11, that's great. If tactics rank suggests 14 turns is okay, that doesn't matter. 8 is better than 14. The characters that allow 14 are not equal to those that allow 8. So, if those 14 can do something that helps those other ranks, we don't care. They aren't helping us destroy the game.

(looks like Red Fox of Fire might just be thinking of a certain topic that I linked you to. We got a little psycho in that topic.

I think we look better in this topic.)

Edited November 20, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

To go further, does the fact that there aren't ranks in FE8 change the fact that it is much easier to beat the game with Seth than with Ewan or Amelia?