Efficiency Tier List?

[Shadow Mir]

*is also waiting for someone to play the Nosferatu card*

[Colonel M]

YOU ACTIVATED MY TR-

But really, I think Shin > Roy is pretty easy to do. His offense is easy to fix since he's doubling more often than Roy is. Granted, Roy has earlygame, but even in the Western Isles he barely doubles and, consequently, barely ORKOes. Though Shin can't really ORKO at this point, he can use a few levels to boost himself, then slap an early promo and then access to Swords. No one is really competing against him for the promotional item either since lolSue, lolWolt, and lolDorothythefugly.

It's just the matter of how early to promote Shin, I guess.

[Mekkah]

Roy has 10-11 AS on Western Isles, and about 9 str + 4 from supports. He can double Fighters with Steel just fine (8-10 Spd, -4 AS), and those are the most common enemies by far. And you forget that he has an enemy phase against those + Mercs too. And benefits Alan/Lance. And Rapier.

[Colonel M]

Then you look later in the game and Shin has Wyvern / Pegasi raping on his side with the Bows. And can counterattack as soon as you promote him.

[Reikken]

2 Shins?

Also what's our level range? What levels are Alan/Lance/Roy/Rutger etc on ch 7? ch 11? ch 14? ch 17? ch 21? END?

Edited June 20, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Woops, Mekkah and Reikken noticed two Shins. I keep forgetting to erase the name when I change something, Shin was meant for upper mid.

Saul and Ellen, someone made an argument and I raised them before the time sweep, I just need to remember where the fuck I put them...if someone could refresh my memory, 'twould be nice.

As for Roy and Shin, you forget Roy can whip out his wyrmslayer. However, I don't think I would discuss this, as I do not use Shin too often. If someone more knowing would like to discuss it...

As for Ray, he has NEVER been discussed this far other than asking "Why is Ray there?", which is by no means a specific argument. I would like to thank Mekkah for FINALLY bringing it up. Well I should say going more in-depth, as obviously it's already been brought up.

Yes, it does appear that Ceclia is owning the shit out of Ray until he promotes, where it does indeed switch there. Ray is mroe able at combat as Nosferatu and dark magic accuracy is of little issue (Lou support boost, his skill isn't complete bawls), but the problem is that early on it only helps if you're lucky. Early on being Ray's entire problem. Nosferatu is only good later on, which Niime has shown us. Hell, Ray could end up below Niime if it is thought so. However, at least Cecilia can do something that Ray is not quite as good at, and that's owning Wyverns with the other hax magic Aircalibur. Add in staff rank and supports that would actually love having her around? I think we have a clear winner.

Ray<Cecilia

Edited June 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Florete]

I'm going to open up this can of worms again. I'm fairly certain it was proven Fir > Klein.

[Ϲharlie]

Geese appears to be missing from the list. Any reason for that?

[grandjackal]

I'm going to open up this can of worms again. I'm fairly certain it was proven Fir > Klein.

You certainly tried to argue it...*slams head against wall* I am absolutely not arguing this, someone else do this. For the sake of my sanity.

Geese appears to be missing from the list. Any reason for that?

Jeez, did we go THAT far back in time? x.x I think it's because at that point, I had just forgotten to add him...

Now I can't even remember where I put him. I know he was either in low, or lower mid...What sounds good for everyone? I just remember we slowly liked him less and less.

[Reikken]

Geese in low? absurd

He's about on the level of Noah and Lot.

[Dat Nick]

EDT: Nevermind, missed jackal's post

Edited June 21, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[grandjackal]

Geese in low? absurd

He's about on the level of Noah and Lot.

He's got similar problems to Ray, except I'd even say they're worse (same starting speed, Geese works with generally heavier weapons). He has about 14-16 AS post promotion (which takes him a while to get there). He's like Ray, a unit who is good lategame, but Ray has magic damage, Nosferatu and staffs at that point.

You might look at Ray and say he's in upper mid, but I can easily see this fool dropping himself. Hell, Ray can even say he helps Lou with a B. Geese helps like...Garret. All Geese's supports are slow, and most of them have quicker options with better people.

As for how low Ray might drop? He's looking to be below Niime. Either that, or Niime rises a ton, which I don't see happening.

[Reikken]

Oh, oh. Chad and Astol. There should be a tier-sized gap or so between them. They're pretty much exactly the same, as is reflected by the current placement, except for a couple of very important points. Chad helps Lugh and Ellen, and quite immensely in Loo's case, and he also gets you 25k, a Halberd, Silver Lance, Killer Axe, Goddess Icon, and Unlock staff (this is listing only the things you absolutely cannot get without Chad). That's quite a lot. Certainly worth a tier gap, if not more, especially considering the limited number of chances you have to buy certain things, like killer weapons. Like killer axes you can only buy in 11A and then no more until 9-10 chapters later, in ch 17Ilia/18Sacae, so you have to really stock up. And that's fairly early, so you don't have as much access to funds as you might like. And no silver card yet. Same for all the other killer weapons except it's 6-7 chapters later and after a bit more access to funds. But still no silver card.

[Dat Nick]

Here's the primary difference: Not only does Geese's AS suck less [Lower base level, and he'll gain quite a few levels by the time Ray joins] his lategame is destroying Ray's. WTA versus Wyvern Lords, good chance to crit and not eat a counter, peak walk, etc

[grandjackal]

Oh, oh. Chad and Astol. There should be a tier-sized gap or so between them. They're pretty much exactly the same, as is reflected by the current placement, except for a couple of very important points. Chad helps Lugh and Ellen, and quite immensely in Loo's case, and he also gets you 25k, a Halberd, Silver Lance, Killer Axe, Goddess Icon, and Unlock staff (this is listing only the things you absolutely cannot get without Chad). That's quite a lot. Certainly worth a tier gap, if not more, especially considering the limited number of chances you have to buy certain things, like killer weapons. Like killer axes you can only buy in 11A and then no more until 9-10 chapters later, in ch 17Ilia/18Sacae, so you have to really stock up. And that's fairly early, so you don't have as much access to funds as you might like. And no silver card yet. Same for all the other killer weapons except it's 6-7 chapters later and after a bit more access to funds. But still no silver card.

There was a tier sized gap before the time warp, and this was the reason why. You can blame my lack of good memory and thus forgetting to save such things.

Just remembered some things though.

-Saul to just below Ellen.

-Ashtor to just above Klein.

-Geese added in to just below Fa.

Sound good to y'all? Feel free to bring your points to the table.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Reikken]

He's got similar problems to Ray, except I'd even say they're worse (same starting speed, Geese works with generally heavier weapons). He has about 14-16 AS post promotion (which takes him a while to get there). He's like Ray, a unit who is good lategame, but Ray has magic damage, Nosferatu and staffs at that point.

You might look at Ray and say he's in upper mid, but I can easily see this fool dropping himself. Hell, Ray can even say he helps Lou with a B. Geese helps like...Garret. All Geese's supports are slow, and most of them have quicker options with better people.

As for how low Ray might drop? He's looking to be below Niime. Either that, or Niime rises a ton, which I don't see happening.

Same starting speed? Nay, Ray starts with 8 AS. Geese with 9, and a bit over 2 chapters earlier. And 2 levels lower. He wins in AS by about 2. Heavier weapons? Not really. Killer axe is only 1 AS loss.

After promotion, Ray gets staves, yes, but Geese also gets massive crit, making for rather impressive offense. 80ish crit rates is pretty hax.

His supports are indeed all slow, but his main supporters, Echidna and Lalum, don't have any fast support options aside from each other. FE6 is very forgiving to slow supports anyway (long chapters, etc. Slow supports are perfectly viable). The support also works quite well since all three support each other. And fire affinity is quite nice.

And I didn't even say Geese in upper mid. I said by Lot and Noah, who are currently in lower mid.

[Reikken]

Also, Ward looks out of place. Especially above Geese. Ward is basically Geese with less speed and no postpromotion crit.

[grandjackal]

Same starting speed? Nay, Ray starts with 8 AS. Geese with 9, and a bit over 2 chapters earlier. And 2 levels lower. He wins in AS by about 2. Heavier weapons? Not really. Killer axe is only 1 AS loss.

*rechecks stats*

...Jeez I'm embaresed. This is how bad my memory can get.

After promotion, Ray gets staves, yes, but Geese also gets massive crit, making for rather impressive offense. 80ish crit rates is pretty hax.

Ray's had Nosferatu to boost his durability to great effect.

Also, considering that I believe berserkers and swordmasters get 30 with 30 crit obtained from killers (essentially no better off than Nosferatu so I'd think it fair), he'd need 40 skill to pull that off, or he would need his only viable support to sloooowwwly kick in, a man who is barely managing to skirt himself out of low. It's still high, but I wouldn't call it that crazy.

His supports are indeed all slow, but his main supporters, Echidna and Lalum-

Stopped right there. Lalum's got Douglas, who is in low just due to time and being average for that time at best (as opposed to Geese who's as high as he is because he's got a time of being good, despite how unstunning he's been beforehand). They both however, have the same affinity and thus she gets the durability boosts she wants, and he gets everything he could ask for. This support is also lightning fast, and due to his move likely to be around her more. Another option is OJ, of which the difference for her is 4 avoid. Echidna has Gonzales or Lot as well.

don't have any fast support options aside from each other. FE6 is very forgiving to slow supports anyway (long chapters, etc. Slow supports are perfectly viable). The support also works quite well since all three support each other. And fire affinity is quite nice.

But to put the rest of it in mind...

She still has many other options that are just better units than Geese.

Fire means dick when the unit getting it only gives a damn about defense and evade. Since it's gonna be a B though, with her affinity giving her the two things she wants anyways, she doesn't give a shit who her B is. But I'd prefer it help better units, or give quicker benefits.

And I didn't even say Geese in upper mid. I said by Lot and Noah, who are currently in lower mid.

*rechecks*

I could have sworn Lot was in upper mid...

Man, I am not on the ball today x.x

As for Ward, I believe Mekkah brought this up. I believe it was due to earlygame, available support options (if you were wondering where he gets the crit and evade), and Wyvernslaying. But surprise, memory is hazy...

This topic was REALLY inactive until now for some reason x.x

Edited June 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Dat Nick]

hold up

Lalum's got Douglas

Douglas? We're using that failboat? Low tier does not a guaranteed support make. GeesexLalam is more than viable.

Edited June 21, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[dondon151]

Dancer supports are always extremely iffy, like thief supports.

[grandjackal]

hold up

Douglas? We're using that failboat? Low tier does not a guaranteed support make. GeesexLalam is more than viable.

GeesexLalum-1+1

DouglasxLaulum-30+3

His support is hilariously faster.

Besides, Douglas is pretty awesome at Sacae, while the only thing that gives him serious trouble in Bern are wyvern lords and the utterly few mages that are hanging around. At base anyways.

At base, by the way, he can manage to pull off being 3RKOd by Mamkutes. I'd consider that pretty damn impressive.

If you're gonna gangbang on Douglas, his move is the bigger problem, and it's a great problem.

EDIT: Goddammit, my memory sucks. His base is 20, not 22 -_-;; Why did they give a prepromoted general a base that is hte cap of the class he just promoted out of? Defense is supposed to be his thing...

Edited June 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Reikken]

Douglas is a much faster support indeed, but even more important than support speed is support starting time. Lalum-Douglas starts 8 chapters after Lalum joins. Lalum-Geese is nearing B by then. It easily hits B before Lalum-Douglas does. While Douglas ends up giving an extra point of def, Geese also gives Lalum +5 avoid while Douglas is busy not existing, and it's also easier to keep them in range due to all three supporters being compatible.

Even more importantly, Douglas is garbage.

Awesome in Sacae? With his garbage for hit against the game's most evasive enemies? I don't think so. Douglas is competing with Gonzales for the least-hit-in-the-game award.

He also gets doubled by everything, including mages, which is very problematic with his 5 res.

OJ's support is just flat out worse. Less avoid and lacks the convenience of having all 3 support each other, and it has no advantages.

Geese is Lalum's best B support.

Echinda does indeed have Lot and Gonzales. But those two lack the convenience and fire affinity that Geese offers. Having both atk and crit (and hit---even Echidna with her 19 base skl could use more hit since she uses axes) is hard to beat. Def? Less important as she's still getting full avoid, and Lalum offers full defensive bonuses already. Offense is the greater problem.

Edited June 21, 2009 by Reikken

[grandjackal]

Douglas is a much faster support indeed, but even more important than support speed is support starting time. Lalum-Douglas starts 8 chapters after Lalum joins. Lalum-Geese is nearing B by then. It easily hits B before Lalum-Douglas does. While Douglas ends up giving an extra point of def, Geese also gives Lalum +5 avoid while Douglas is busy not existing, and it's also easier to keep them in range due to all three supporters being compatible.

Even more importantly, Douglas is garbage.

Awesome in Sacae? With his garbage for hit against the game's most evasive enemies? I don't think so. Douglas is competing with Gonzales for the least-hit-in-the-game award.

He also gets doubled by everything, including mages, which is very problematic with his 5 res.

OJ's support is just flat out worse. Less avoid and lacks the convenience of having all 3 support each other, and it has no advantages.

Geese is Lalum's best B support.

Echinda does indeed have Lot and Gonzales. But those two lack the convenience and fire affinity that Geese offers. Having both atk and crit (and hit---even Echidna with her 19 base skl could use more hit since she uses axes) is hard to beat. Def? Less important as she's still getting full avoid, and Lalum offers full defensive bonuses already. Offense is the greater problem.

Ya know, something has been bugging me lately, and this is what it is.

Generally, all B supports are all so similar for a character, that a character hardly gives a shit WHO their B supporter is affinity-wise.

This could mean a lot for the whole list, but considering this makes Geese a perfectly viable B for a LalumxEchidna threesome and complete a triangle (thus not leeving a loose end like Gonzales would), this indeed makes him a more than viable support.

Raising him I will. Speaking of which though, how would one think this over for..well...Everyone?

As for Douglas, I will just say I thought he came earlier than that (can you see how bad my memory is yet?) and I was under the assumption he had 22 base defense and not just 20 -_-;; so yeah, dumb argument on my part.

[dondon151]

Wait wait wait how do two 1 +1 supports between characters that join a third of the way through the game possibly constitute a viable triangle?

[Reikken]

Better options don't exist, and +1 supports aren't that bad in this game. Chapters are long and very accommodating to support-building (often you have stretches of just advancing without attacking much). +1 supports are more viable in this game than +2s in FE7.