Ncknck Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 I take it Aeine means that with regards of lowest possible turncount PTs. Not that im disputing this statement although it shows that Aeine doesnt believe the number of turns can be lowered with other units or tactics, and regards the current lineup as final. Such a statement has to be proven with math first, and even if it is possible, it would be a bloody mess of numbers. The problem is that in such a line-up every unit with required/sufficient characteristics has an equal value and every unit not belonging there has a value of zero, making Tier lists impossible. If unit1 is needed on map1, it is needed no matter what, and if unit1 is not needed on map2, it suddenly has a value of zero. They need a chart as much as a screwdriver needs confirmation of it being better than a hammer to unscrew bolts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 what did i just read, i literally understood nothing past the first period Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ncknck Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 tl;dr -LTC doesnt need a tier list anyway -proof missing that Tormods high move isnt able to contribute to LTC Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 (edited) It doesn't change the fact that Tormod doesn't contribute anything unique to the table. Neither does Jill or Kieran ;) Here's your problem. A tier list is not the same as a list of units that you use to clear the game in 114 turns. Wow, even dondon is saying that Aeine cares about LTCs too much. Edited September 16, 2012 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 16, 2012 Share Posted September 16, 2012 Yes, I've decided that Marcia is far better than Jill and Kieran is replaceable. My team isn't final. Mia and Ilyana and Kieran can all be replaced. The others cannot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ncknck Posted September 26, 2012 Share Posted September 26, 2012 It sure is difficult to kick Soren out of the party. He kinda grew on me. Or maybe its his lvl18 i spend lots of effort getting. Boyd is 20/1 and i had no qualms about getting him benched. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 You benched the best foot unit in the game? lol gg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 You benched the best foot unit in the game? lol gg It's possible to LTC the game without Boyd and get the same number of turns you would have with Boyd. Boyd is nothing special due to low move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caliban of Sycorax Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 This much is true. And in LTC, that's fine. In Max Efficiency, good luck. Those early chapters are awful without Boyd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ncknck Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Boyd is undeniably great in early chapters. But Tormod joins around chapter 16, thats not early game anymore. Lots of overall better units around and Boyds input is largely done by that point. As for the better foot unit.. Boyd caps HP and str, but he has atrocious defense and gets slaughtered if he ends his turn near archers. And if there is an enemy mage around.. oh my. Jill has similar problems, but she has overkill melee resistance so can still tank the other guys, Boyd has nothing. Axes are not all that clearly superior in Maniac mode, regular once have problmes hitting. I actually let them carry an Iron Lance around, cause very often its just the only thing that hits reliably, and even that is not a given. A Steel Axe? Good luck hitting that Myrmidon, and he has the WTA advantage too. Im not sure, to my limited knowledge, why Boyd is listed higher than Ike tbh. Ike's stats are plain better, he has better availability(duh), and a usable master skill. He is required to beat the game. Boyd is hit&run, except he doesnt have the run part. Ike is self-sufficient with Aether and has superior late game weapons anyway. HP is the easiest to upgrade, since one Serath robe gives +7 hp, but one dracoshield gives only +2 def. The only thing i see going for Boys is range, for the most part of the game, but this negates him his biggest advantage namely melee damage, so he becomes, what, a better Rolf. 20/20 stats Name Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 20 52 26 11 27 28 19 23 17 Boyd 20 60 30 03 25 24 17 16 11 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 This much is true. And in LTC, that's fine. In Max Efficiency, good luck. Those early chapters are awful without Boyd. They're still easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ncknck Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) This is fixedBoyd, a 20/1 with a speedwing and a positive Biorhythm, doubled by his Tempest. And this is chapter 16, where Tormod joined, and tbh other characters even before that like Makalov or Astrid, and all fight for the deployment spot. Lets own these guys shall we Whoah, a whopping 65% to do chip damage. Not good Boyd, not good, lets attack the Archer, he probably does suck, and cant even retaliate to our Axe effect. Much better, an 80% chance to do chip damage. Volke with a dagger vs Myrmi, 100% tohit Results: Boyd does average 15 damage. Volke does 12. Boyd got really lucky with that save having him positive Bio, 20 hit less otherwise. Edited September 28, 2012 by ncknck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snowy_One Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Doesn't Boyd have access to bows upon promotion? Not to mention handaxes? Merely equipping those things would serve to deter archers (never mind if he had enough MT to actually kill them). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Knocking 23/27 HP is considered "chip" damage now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Life Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Let it be known that a forged Steel Axe (been around since Chapter 14 and would benefit Jill/Keiran/anyone else with an axe) would actually have 20/1 Boyd OHKOing generic enemies in Chapter 16, a feat that very few units (read that as none) can replicate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Boyd doesn't need to attack from melee range that often since he ORKO most enemy types with handaxes (and counter more enemy types on EP while doing it). 1-2 range is probably the biggest difference between Ike and Boyd, although the MT difference between Ike and Boyd also tends to be significant. As for hit issues, Boyd has supports, possible hit forged onto his weapon and keeping Tempest on Boyd probably isn't the best idea anyway. It's much easier to get Boyd to high hit levels than Ike. Not sure what you mean by better weapons for Ike unless you're talking about Ragnell, which does give Ike an advantage but only for two chapters. Edited September 28, 2012 by -Cynthia- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PKL Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 nck is so sandbagging Boyd lmao. Forge him a +Hit Steel Axe/Hand Axe. Hit issues gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ncknck Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Treating Boyd equal to the rest of the team is not sandbagging. He already got the speedwing, one of the better items in the game. Boyd needs forges to be better than Volke. I dont consider it a good sign. Also forged max +mt/+hit hand axe, 80% hit, not killing. forged max +mt/+hit steel axe, not killing. Although it is a somewhat better result, yes. But these weapons' costs/use is 15 times higher than the cost of the weapons everyone else is using for not that great of an impact. He is pretty low on the priority list for the forges, were they to be to used, or Boyd. I'd rather give a forge to Jill or Marcia. Well, note this is Maniac Mode, the usual arguments dont apply here. In other difficulties its easy to double (hard_wing_Boyd would double here) as well as easy to hit. That Myrmidon has about 17 AS as opposed to 14 on hard. The game inflates into who can deliver the most damage the fastest, and arguably it boosts Boyd too, negating his both weaknesses, bad hit and bad durability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 This isn't a Maniac Mode tier list. I imagine he'd fall a significant amount there, since doubling requirements increase drastically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 (edited) Why is Ilyana so below Soren when they're for all intents and purposes almost equal? And why is Tormod still higher up than them? Edited September 28, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) because the former is not true, your playthrough is not the only playthrough in existence and youre wrong Edited September 29, 2012 by Lord Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiki Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 (edited) because the former is not true, your playthrough is not the only playthrough in existence and youre wrong 1. Typing without punctuation doesn't make you cool. 2. Do you really have to repeat everything you say over and over again like a broken record? I never once mentioned my playthrough. Ilyana makes up (somewhat, but not completely) for her inferior stats with her superior and more abundant supports. She doesn't need to be babied like Soren does. Level 5 Ilyana: 32 HP, 7.5 Str, 18 Mag, 54 hit, 16 Spd, 46 avoid, 7.7 Def, 21 Res Level 5 Soren: 32 HP, 3 Str, 20 Mag, 55 hit, 19 Spd, 49 avoid, 7.4 Def, 21.5 Res Soren has 2 more magic, 3 more speed, 3 more avoid, 1 more hit than Ilyana. Ilyana with supports can have better hit and avoid than Soren though, since Stefan is more likely than not to be unused. It's more likely that Zihark / Mia / Mordecai etc. will be used than Stefan. The AS doesn't really matter much. It's not like you use your mages in the front lines anyway. In terms of using siege tomes, which is a Sage's main function in an efficiency playthrough obviously, Ilyana is clearly superior with better supports and slightly better strength. So what I'm wondering is why, considering all these facts, Ilyana is so far below Soren. Edited September 29, 2012 by Aeine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Cynthia- Posted September 29, 2012 Author Share Posted September 29, 2012 I moved Ilyana to immediately below Soren and Calill to above Tormod and Soren, for doing a similar job with little resource expenditure. I kept Tormod above Soren and Ilyana for now- I think Celerity allows him to contribute to non siege tome combat more often than they can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ncknck Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 How is efficiency defined in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aku chi Posted September 29, 2012 Share Posted September 29, 2012 In terms of using siege tomes, which is a Sage's main function in an efficiency playthrough obviously, Ilyana is clearly superior with better supports and slightly better strength. That's not at all clear. Soren has more Atk with siege tomes; he deals more damage to bosses and he can more easily OHKO ballista operators. Str advantage notwithstanding, Ilyana isn't going to double anything with siege tomes. Ilyana's potential Hit advantage over Soren is not significant and gets inverted if Stefan is in play. That being said, Ilyana > Swordmasters doesn't bother me. Calill > Soren in the same tier list as Marcia >> Tanith, on the other hand, seems very odd to me. There is literally nothing Calill can do that Soren cannot also do. Soren has potential utility before Calill joins (most notably in C15), and advantages in their shared availability (staves + additional Atk). Calill's only advantage is needing fewer resources to make siege tome contributions. This is certainly an advantage (as it is in favor of Tanith in Marcia vs. Tanith), but it is insufficient to offset Soren's advantages. A similar argument can probably be made for Calill < Tormod and Calill < Ilyana. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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