FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

Well, even if we're assuming a more relaxed team, Marcia is still useful, partially since she has less competition for her utility such as dropping units in Chapters 20, 21, 23, 25 and 28, luring Naesala down or killing the boss in Chapter 19, killing Oliver in Chapter 17, and Arriving in Chapter 17 (although she's better than Jill for this anyway since she's easier to Shove).

[Interceptor]

Perhaps, then, Nephenee is underrated. Think about what you said for the Sothe vs Volug argument and apply it here.

It's possible, but I doubt it. Who's she going to go above?

This comparisn is only true later on in the game, and Marcia is still very, very competant. [...] which can give her avo in the nineties at level 20/15, so she isn't too worried in that department.

So am I supposed to be impressed with the fact that Marcia needs a forge to ORKO, and then still misses Wyverns and Generals? Or that she gets durable in lategame when high-leveled with great support partners nearby? This is worse than what I get out of Astrid, Nephenee, Makalov, etc. Marcia is certainly a better fighter than a GBA PK, but she still has only Upper-Mid combat in this game.

Pegasi are useful. Just look at Thany, or Vanessa, or Florina, all of which have poor stats, even worse than Marcia, yet somehow remain in the higher tiers for their respective games. Hell, look at FE10 Haar, who would probably be in High if not for his mount.

Not only was I not saying that Pegasi aren't useful, but you're making cross-list comparisons here.

I'm fine with Marcia being at the bottom of Top as long as Boyd goes down to High.

I wouldn't, it would be a little strange to have Boyd in the same tier as Ike. Ike has some wins here and there, but Boyd is otherwise stomping all over him for most of the game, for a variety of reasons. If that's not worth a tier break, then what is?

Oh, and tell me just what Boyd is going to do in Chapters 1 through 8 that couldn't be done by Titania.

Nothing, obviously. The entire game is basically the Titania, Jill and Marcia Show, everything else is just cameo appearances by enemies and D-list actors. There's no point at even looking at Boyd's combat parameters, how dare he not be the best unit on the map.

Obviously I don't think she should be that high, I mean, that's above the better flier. I just think you underrate the value of flight utility.

Great, since I think that you put so much weight on "flight utility" that you marginalize unit comparisons as a result. Like I said, we only disagree on where the line is drawn.

The faster that you're assumed to go, the more useful mounts and fliers are. I think quite a few of us are reluctant to consider only a hyper aggressive playstyle (though why we condone a normal aggressive playstyle and not a hyper one puzzles me).

I think that there is a sort of Laffer curve in terms of FE tiering, except instead of "tax rates" and "government revenue", we have "efficiency" and "interesting discussion".

I think that generally, options are good for discussion, but you can go overboard. For instance, obviously, when efficiency is at 0%, discussion becomes ridiculous because of the infinite numbers of retarded strategies. Likewise, I also think that discussion is dead at the 100% efficiency mark, because at this point we're not actually debating anything, we're instead tracking a hyper-optimal playthrough (and insignificant permutations thereof).

I don't know where maximally interesting discussion lies, but my efficient (not low-turn) playthrough of FE10 was an attempt to find that sweet spot.

[Zkirsche]

It's possible, but I doubt it. Who's she going to go above?

Perhaps not go above someone, but rise to high. In any case, 2 tiers is simplifying the matter. Nephenee is at the top of upper mid, and Marcia at the bottom of top, so taht's basically only a tier and a bit.

So am I supposed to be impressed with the fact that Marcia needs a forge to ORKO, and then still misses Wyverns and Generals? Or that she gets durable in lategame when high-leveled with great support partners nearby? This is worse than what I get out of Astrid, Nephenee, Makalov, etc. Marcia is certainly a better fighter than a GBA PK, but she still has only Upper-Mid combat in this game.

You yourself stated that we'll quickly have more forge opportunities than we need, so why not give at least some of those to Marcia. She can also ORKO myrms, which not a lot of people can do, so she has other uses. Generally, I want a fighter to be able to tackle generals or sm's, preferably both, but that's rare. Otehrwise, they're too generic.

[Anouleth]

So am I supposed to be impressed with the fact that Marcia needs a forge to ORKO, and then still misses Wyverns and Generals? Or that she gets durable in lategame when high-leveled with great support partners nearby? This is worse than what I get out of Astrid, Nephenee, Makalov, etc. Marcia is certainly a better fighter than a GBA PK, but she still has only Upper-Mid combat in this game.

Yes. Marcia's combat is good enough for most of the game. You have piles of forges you can make, especially when you consider how many chapters can be easily skipped and don't require much in the way of combat, so you're not actually using any forges, but you do get one.

Missing Wyverns and Generals is a strike against her, but they're not even particularly common enemies.

I wouldn't, it would be a little strange to have Boyd in the same tier as Ike. Ike has some wins here and there, but Boyd is otherwise stomping all over him for most of the game, for a variety of reasons. If that's not worth a tier break, then what is?

Well, I think that tier breaks are kind of silly and arbitrary, and that between Jill and Reyson there's not really any massive gaps in performance that warrant a tier break anyway. But er, apparently you think that Marcia should remain at the bottom of top (dunno why).

Nothing, obviously. The entire game is basically the Titania, Jill and Marcia Show, everything else is just cameo appearances by enemies and D-list actors. There's no point at even looking at Boyd's combat parameters, how dare he not be the best unit on the map.

Jill and Marcia cannot do everything and on their own are vulnerable to RNG-screwage. However, there is absolutely no reason not to power through earlygame maps with Titania, in which case Boyd is not really going to help us. Especially since two of the chapters are defend chapters and another two, Boyd doesn't even exist in.

In any case, you could have said 'clear a path in Chapter 6' or 'help with the Chapter 7 Rout', or point out that in Chapter 9/10/11, Boyd kicks her ass. I suppose it's a matter of opinion whether that's more or less valuable than Marcia being generally more useful in the chapters they both exist in beyond that point.

Great, since I think that you put so much weight on "flight utility" that you marginalize unit comparisons as a result. Like I said, we only disagree on where the line is drawn.

Okay.

I think that there is a sort of Laffer curve in terms of FE tiering, except instead of "tax rates" and "government revenue", we have "efficiency" and "interesting discussion".

I think that generally, options are good for discussion, but you can go overboard. For instance, obviously, when efficiency is at 0%, discussion becomes ridiculous because of the infinite numbers of retarded strategies. Likewise, I also think that discussion is dead at the 100% efficiency mark, because at this point we're not actually debating anything, we're instead tracking a hyper-optimal playthrough (and insignificant permutations thereof).

I don't know where maximally interesting discussion lies, but my efficient (not low-turn) playthrough of FE10 was an attempt to find that sweet spot.

Well, I think the best solution is probably to consider all possible teams rather than just teams of high tier units. So for example, Boyd is good in a team full of 9 move units, since he can be carried to the frontlines and his offense is generally needed to clear the path for a fast pace, whereas in a team of predominantly 7 and 6 move units, he kind of blows since the pace is slower (his offense is less valuable) and also there are more units that can emulate him (like Sages or Wrath users or Vague Katti users). Reyson is weaker in teams of 7/6 move units as well, since he can't really take full advantage of his crazy transformed movement or his 4x Vigor. What's important is that in any given team, we assume the player uses the characters available to him to their best.

Speaking of Reyson, I've noticed one thing - Knight Ring is significantly overrated on him. Generally, Reyson should be moving his maximum movement every single turn anyway just to keep up. The best use for the Knight Ring is probably on someone like Ike or Boyd in dense maps where they can kill an enemy and reposition themselves either for a Vigor or for optimum enemy phase exposure. I don't think this would really have any significant effect on his position, maybe on other characters who want it?

Hmm, anything else... I think that Tauroneo should go above Largo. Largo is seriously bad, even when I gave him Vantage he was constantly at risk of dying. Bad accuracy, meh speed, bad durability, meh movement.

Tauroneo, on the other hand, is instantly useful in Chapter 21. He ORKOs everything in the throne room with a Heavy Spear, and if you can manipulate him into weakening himself on one of your characters or Ena, he doesn't even need that and can help take Ena down. The throne room is generally a pain to get to, whatever team you use, so his offense is always useful. He can serve as a good rearguard in Chapter 23, and in Chapter 25 you can drop him on the top level and have him tear stuff apart. These are options that simply do not exist for Largo (amusingly enough, Tauroneo in Resolve HP is more durable than base Largo). What's funny is that even the few things that Tauroneo fails to double in Resolve Mode, like Ravens or Cats or Swordmasters, he can generally OHKO anyway with a forge since he has monstrous strength.

Edited August 10, 2010 by Slowking

[Interceptor]

Perhaps not go above someone, but rise to high. In any case, 2 tiers is simplifying the matter. Nephenee is at the top of upper mid, and Marcia at the bottom of top, so taht's basically only a tier and a bit.

Now this is just semantics. You raised the point that Nephenee's tier position could be wrong, but the only solution you've offered is to make a cosmetic shift that basically doesn't change anything about my original point.

You yourself stated that we'll quickly have more forge opportunities than we need, so why not give at least some of those to Marcia. She can also ORKO myrms, which not a lot of people can do, so she has other uses. Generally, I want a fighter to be able to tackle generals or sm's, preferably both, but that's rare. Otehrwise, they're too generic.

I didn't say that she couldn't have forges, I said that needing a forge and then still failing to ORKO hard enemies is pretty unimpressive. This is worse than the offense that I get from people below her, including Nephenee.

Missing Wyverns and Generals is a strike against her, but they're not even particularly common enemies.

Sure, they are pretty uncommon unless you're trying to sandbag Mist out of the SS.

Well, I think that tier breaks are kind of silly and arbitrary, and that between Jill and Reyson there's not really any massive gaps in performance that warrant a tier break anyway. But er, apparently you think that Marcia should remain at the bottom of top (dunno why).

The tier gap between Jill and Raisin should be infinity, since he doesn't even belong on the list in the first place.

But other than that, I think that tier gaps serve a purpose. You call them arbitrary, but I find them useful. My philosophy on tier breaks is this: everyone in [upper Mid] should be universally better than those in [Mid], and worse than those in [High]. They may or may not be better than their neighbors in the same tier, and in fact I'd expect the comparisons to be relatively close and arguable. I also consider them to be a firebreak, that prevents Grandjackal someone from hyping Eddie leapfrogging a given unit over a huge pack of others all at once.

Summary: I consider the argument that Marcia is universally better than everyone in High to be a reasonable one, which is why I am OK with her at the bottom of Top. But that's as far as she goes, I don't agree with any tactical upwards movements therein.

Jill and Marcia [blah blah blah] ... I suppose it's a matter of opinion whether that's more or less valuable than Marcia being generally more useful in the chapters they both exist in beyond that point.

You appear to completely have missed my sarcasm, but arrived at a more or less reasonable conclusion regardless, so I'll take it.

Well, I think the best solution is probably to consider all possible teams rather than just teams of high tier units. So for example, Boyd is good in a team full of 9 move units, since he can be carried to the frontlines and his offense is generally needed to clear the path for a fast pace, whereas in a team of predominantly 7 and 6 move units, he kind of blows since the pace is slower (his offense is less valuable) and also there are more units that can emulate him (like Sages or Wrath users or Vague Katti users). Reyson is weaker in teams of 7/6 move units as well, since he can't really take full advantage of his crazy transformed movement or his 4x Vigor. What's important is that in any given team, we assume the player uses the characters available to him to their best.

The problem here is that when it comes to efficient results, team selection is of primary importance. If you open up all possible teams, you introduce an overwhelming number of asinine configurations, like a team of nothing but frail combat units and mages. I am fine with assuming that characters are used the most effectively when they are deployed, but since even that depends on their environment to a large extent, and there is no telling what the army looks like, where does that leave you?

[-Cynthia-]

Largo's Spd is generally good enough to double reliably after a few BEXP levels, and when Largo doubles he tends to kill...a lot. Tauroneo can't double non-armors without Resolve.

Sure Big T is durable, but he's so durable it hurts his chances of getting into Resolve range. And while Largo has bad Def/Res, he at least has a lot of HP, and has so much Str he can Hand Axe to avoid counters. Plus Largo has +1 Mov (and has some sort of terrain ignoring thing I think due to class), while Big T doesn't Mov around much.

Edited August 10, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Anouleth]

Sure, they are pretty uncommon unless you're trying to sandbag Mist out of the SS.

When we discussed Mist, I said that I would see how Mist played out in my own playthrough and judge for myself. I admit that I was overestimating the value of the SS - Wyverns are only important to ORKO in Chapters 20, 24 and 25, and most of the time you can get away with not using the SS anyway. However, I don't think that Mist really needs the SS to be useful anyway.

The tier gap between Jill and Raisin should be infinity, since he doesn't even belong on the list in the first place.

Reyson might be difficult to tier, but that's no reason to throw our hands up and declare that he 'doesn't belong on the tier list'.

But other than that, I think that tier gaps serve a purpose. You call them arbitrary, but I find them useful. My philosophy on tier breaks is this: everyone in [upper Mid] should be universally better than those in [Mid], and worse than those in [High]. They may or may not be better than their neighbors in the same tier, and in fact I'd expect the comparisons to be relatively close and arguable. I also consider them to be a firebreak, that prevents Grandjackal someone from hyping Eddie leapfrogging a given unit over a huge pack of others all at once.

Except that really, a sensibly run tier list wouldn't allow massive leaps anyway, and generally two units that are adjacent are always very similiar in their contributions.

Summary: I consider the argument that Marcia is universally better than everyone in High to be a reasonable one, which is why I am OK with her at the bottom of Top. But that's as far as she goes, I don't agree with any tactical upwards movements therein.

I've gathered.

You appear to completely have missed my sarcasm, but arrived at a more or less reasonable conclusion regardless, so I'll take it.

Well, even if you prefer to make a sarcastic comment rather than type a serious response, I don't. I'm not really as good as sarcasm as you.

The problem here is that when it comes to efficient results, team selection is of primary importance. If you open up all possible teams, you introduce an overwhelming number of asinine configurations, like a team of nothing but frail combat units and mages. I am fine with assuming that characters are used the most effectively when they are deployed, but since even that depends on their environment to a large extent, and there is no telling what the army looks like, where does that leave you?

Oh well. There aren't that many frail combat units anyway. I think as long as we discard the stupidest possibilities (Sothe/Ena) everybody else is at least usable without constantly dying.

And really, a good unit should be good regardless of what doods are around him. If some hypothetical character X is utterly dependent on some character Y being around to support him, the possibility of us not fielding Y should be considered whether Y is at the top or the bottom of the list. Otherwise, we have the situation where character X is high on the list because another character is high on the list. Certainly, it has issues, but it's preferable to 'optimal deployment' tier lists.

Largo's Spd is generally good enough to double reliably after a few BEXP levels, and when Largo doubles he tends to kill...a lot. Tauroneo can't double non-armors without Resolve.

Sure Big T is durable, but he's so durable it hurts his chances of getting into Resolve range. And while Largo has bad Def/Res, he at least has a lot of HP, and has so much Str he can Hand Axe to avoid counters. Plus Largo has +1 Mov (and has some sort of terrain ignoring thing I think due to class), while Big T doesn't Mov around much.

Level 16 Tauroneo has 49HP and 23DEF/15RES, as well as 14SPD, on average. Possibly even faster if we gave him some BEXP as you suggest for Largo, but upping Tauroneo's speed is a double-edged sword, since although he doubles more with Resolve it gets harder for him to even reach Resolve.

In any case, there are plenty of enemies on the top floor of Chapter 25 that can get him down to 24HP. For example, the Tiger has 34ATK and the Purge Bishop has 26ATK, which is already 22 out of 25 needed damage. Gromell, if he's still alive (which I don't really recommend) also has 26ATK. Once Tauroneo is in Resolve Mode, he can drink a Pure Water and equip the KW or something to keep himself alive.

I also think you overrate Largo's strength. He has only 29ATK with the Hand Axe, along with 109 accuracy. This is bad, especially when you consider that everything in Chapter 25 is getting +1DEF and +10AVO from the terrain. He also doesn't double faster enemies such as Ravens, Cats, Swordmasters and the like. Once in Resolve territory, Tauroneo has far better accuracy, and better strength. For example, Swordmasters need 45ATK to OHKO, which he can get even with an ordinary Steel Lance. He can also ORKO the Wyverns at 1-2 range, something Largo cannot do even with a forged Hand Axe. And of course, he's more durable. Largo is 3HKOed by almost everything here.

Tauroneo can easily be dropped on the top floor of Chapter 25. I didn't need to do this in my playthrough because my flyers were wtfridiculous, but I definitely saw the opportunity. I suppose he's weakened if there are no fliers available to carry him, but any of Tanith/Haar/Jill/Marcia can do it. And even Janaff with a Statue Frag. Although, the possibility of being stuck with 3 move in that map is pretty bad.

Largo has normal move in desert and water

Edited August 11, 2010 by Slowking

[Zkirsche]

In any case, there are plenty of enemies on the top floor of Chapter 25 that can get him down to 24HP.

These should be cleared out by our fliers long before Taur even gets up there. And dropping units just is a hassle for fliers if they can't do it in one motion.

Even if you could easily get him in resolve territory in chapter 25 (which I still disagree with), there's every other chapter to worry about and outside of resolve Taur loses on almost every offensive parameter (bar hit, which he wins by 1-2 points).

You could have even gave Largo some bexp to up his level a bit. This way, he matches taur's base str, uses stronger and more common (for forge trading) weapons (axes), still crushes him completely in the AS department, now has more hit than Taur and is more durable. W00t. Is this favouritism? No, becuase you obviously used bexp to get Taur up to level 16 by chapter 25 (Chapter 22 should be 1-2 turned by seige tome calill, chapter 23 he should not be able to catch up and he faces the same issue in chapter 24. pLus, he's overlevelled, so grows slowly to add to this problem). This puts his Atk to Boyd's level. And as for durability, as the average melee atk is 23 atk or so, it means he gets 4-5HKO'ed. And whilst his avo isn't wtf amazing, it'll build up over time and let him survive some times after facing 5 attacks. This gives him ample time to be healed.

Now this is just semantics. You raised the point that Nephenee's tier position could be wrong, but the only solution you've offered is to make a cosmetic shift that basically doesn't change anything about my original point.

It changes a lot about your point, you moaned she was two tiers below Marcia, so I said move her up one. You stated how she's lucky to be there, and i say she isn't.

I didn't say that she couldn't have forges, I said that needing a forge and then still failing to ORKO hard enemies is pretty unimpressive. This is worse than the offense that I get from people below her, including Nephenee.

Nephenee is actually worse on the atk department, having less str than Marcia and having no atk supports. Oh and Myrms are hard enemies, which you've yet to acknowledge.

@Cynthia: Any new thoughts on Boyd vs Marcia.

[-Cynthia-]

Key words are clearly "once in Resolve territory". Yes, there are some opponents (mainly magic users) that can get Taur down to half health, but when is he getting to them? Wouldn't it be more efficient to kill them with our fliers/cavs? And even once Taur gets in range, I don't see a way to guarantee he gets targeted (unless he's the only one there, but Big T being the only one to face a group of enemies will take a while with his low Mov). And even if he gets Resolved, how late in the chapter is it?

Boyd vs. Marcia- I'm tempted to go with Marcia because I feel like I might have been overrating Boyd's earlygame (only Titania helps with fast clears on a lot of chapters).

Edited August 11, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Boyd vs. Marcia- I'm tempted to go with Marcia because I feel like I might have been overrating Boyd's earlygame (only Titania helps with fast clears on a lot of chapters).

Well, you're the host of this tier list, so I guess It's up to you to make the final call.

[Anouleth]

These should be cleared out by our fliers long before Taur even gets up there. And dropping units just is a hassle for fliers if they can't do it in one motion.

The only flier really strong enough to ORKO the enemies up there and not die is like, maybe Jill, except that even she isn't really fast enough to double a lot of the enemies and not really strong enough to ORKO with a Hand Axe forge (both of which Tauroneo can do), plus she has to pick between the Laguzguard and the Full Guard whereas Tauroneo can take whichever of Knight Ward/Full Guard is more appropiate to the situation, plus she's less durable since she doesn't get the terrain bonus and she's less durable in general and her supports are on the other side of the mountain, plus I'm cagey about assuming that Jill is going to be in play and not STR or SPD screwed.

So yeah, there is one person who can emulate this, but it's still useful and Tauroneo should be credited with doing something that Largo cannot.

Even if you could easily get him in resolve territory in chapter 25 (which I still disagree with), there's every other chapter to worry about and outside of resolve Taur loses on almost every offensive parameter (bar hit, which he wins by 1-2 points).

Actually, Tauroneo is only losing on AS and wins everything else by a country mile. Better strength, better weapon selection, better durability, more accurate weapons.

You could have even gave Largo some bexp to up his level a bit. This way, he matches taur's base str, uses stronger and more common (for forge trading) weapons (axes), still crushes him completely in the AS department, now has more hit than Taur and is more durable. W00t. Is this favouritism? No, becuase you obviously used bexp to get Taur up to level 16 by chapter 25 (Chapter 22 should be 1-2 turned by seige tome calill, chapter 23 he should not be able to catch up and he faces the same issue in chapter 24. pLus, he's overlevelled, so grows slowly to add to this problem). This puts his Atk to Boyd's level. And as for durability, as the average melee atk is 23 atk or so, it means he gets 4-5HKO'ed. And whilst his avo isn't wtf amazing, it'll build up over time and let him survive some times after facing 5 attacks. This gives him ample time to be healed.

Why should we give Largo anything just so he can match base level Tauroneo? He's still not really durable, ever, especially against Mages. Take the Purge Bishop or Gromell in Chapter 25, who both 3HKO him, or the Wyvern Lord or the Tiger or some of the Warriors, who also 3HKO him. Sure, the weak enemies like Halberdiers and Snipers and Swordmasters are ~4HKOing him, except that generally have crit rates too so he's not even particularly safe against them either. I mean, there are Brave Swordmasters running around that 4HKO him and have double digit crit and ~80 hit. So Largo is frequently going to need protection and not be able to make the most of his offense.

Even if Tauroneo cannot catch up in Chapter 23, he can sit at the back and feast on the delicious reinforcements.

I would not try to play the 'we are advancing insanely fast and Tauroneo will get left behind and not do anything' card. For a start, under such an assumption, Largo is just as much of a waste as Tauroneo, except he can't engage in shenanigans in Chapter 21 and 25.

Largo does not need to survive 'sometimes', he needs to survive 'all the time'.

See, I didn't leave a save nearby, but I plan to test this out in Chapter 25 for myself.

Key words are clearly "once in Resolve territory". Yes, there are some opponents (mainly magic users) that can get Taur down to half health, but when is he getting to them? Wouldn't it be more efficient to kill them with our fliers/cavs? And even once Taur gets in range, I don't see a way to guarantee he gets targeted (unless he's the only one there, but Big T being the only one to face a group of enemies will take a while with his low Mov). And even if he gets Resolved, how late in the chapter is it?

Boyd vs. Marcia- I'm tempted to go with Marcia because I feel like I might have been overrating Boyd's earlygame (only Titania helps with fast clears on a lot of chapters).

The idea is that you drop Tauroneo on the top level of Chapter 25, which is swarming with powerful enemies, and his hapless chauffeur skedaddles (since Marcia and Tanith generally wouldn't have the durability to live up there and Haar doesn't have the offense). Enemies mess up Tauroneo's mustache and he obliterates them. Really, there are no other chapters suitable for this strategy, except maybe dropping him near the boss in Chapter 24, which is cool to gain EXP but not really productive since you don't need to kill Rikard for that chapter anyway. And he's useful enough in Chapter 21 since you can only carry so many people to the throne room and the armours are pretty tough.

EDIT: I just forgot about Chapter 28! derp. 22AS gets like, everything except some Cats and Ravens and Dragons, and he can OHKO the Ravens anyway and he doubles the slower ones. Main issue is that some exceptionally trollish Dragons actually double him before Resolve procs, and they 3HKO.

But the reason it's so good for Chapter 25 is that a Paladin heavy team struggles to reach the top level, and there are only so many good fliers that can perform up there.

Any response to my earlier comments about Sothe and Volke going down, incidentally? I remember someone mentioning that there are 18 Chest Key uses, which is both too high and too low. There are actually 3 Chest Keys in Chapter 27, but two of the people who carry them are hidden by roofs, which is probably why they were omitted. And I believe that the Chest Keys in Chapter 16 and 22 are too time consuming to access, although you can get one of the C16 Keys. Regardless, there's enough around to get most of the worthwhile treasures like the Speedwings, Laguz Axe, Wrath, Resolve, Energy Drops etc etc. It's hilarious how many worthless treasures exist, like the items in C10 and Corrosion and Bolganone and Recover and the Master Seal (in Chapter 21!)

Edited August 11, 2010 by Slowking

[-Cynthia-]

Well, there's also Jill who has both durability and offense, and Haar's offense isn't too bad with a Brave. marica/Tanith are also fairly durable since they should have a B support. Though I guess they have to share the Full Guard.

We may also want to drop non-Taur people up there, like Boyd or Nephenee, or whatever strong nonfliers we have at the time, and they tend to do a better job than Tauroneo. They might not be able to take as many rounds of combat, but they should be able to kill enemies faster when unResolved.

Minor utility when dropped in C25 (note: Taur also has to be attacked over the flier that dropped him, which we can't guarantee) and killing some armors in C21 (which we don't have to do, it's a Seize) isn't much. Then again, Largo doesn't do much either, but at least he can have good offense without Resolve.

Sothe/Volke- Those items in the desert are pretty important, and you may be underrating Stealables a little bit (Physics and siege tomes can be quite useful). I would be willing to drop them, but are their resources really worse than mediocre combat units like Devdan?

[Shadow Mir]

Sothe/Volke- Those items in the desert are pretty important, and you may be underrating Stealables a little bit (Physics and siege tomes can be quite useful). I would be willing to drop them, but are their resources really worse than mediocre combat units like Devdan?

WRT siege tomes, I doubt that can really amount to much given the fact that robbing the enemies with them can be a real pain, especially if they move. Also, are there even that many siege tomes up for stealing?? Let's see...

17-4 - Meteor (Meh. This can be cleared in 2 turns.)

18 - Blizzard, Bolting (The Sages with them are near the end.)

20 - Blizzard (See above. Also, the Sage with it might move.)

22 - Bolting (Another speedclearable chapter.

23 - Blizzard (dropped)

26 - Meteor, Blizzard (The former won't move from his spot right near Bertram, and the latter moves.)

27 - Bolting, Meteor (The Bolting dude is in a room guarded by Silver Lance generals, and both he and Mr. Meteor move.)

28 - Meteor, Bolting (Meteor Man starts not too far from the strt, but he likely moves, and unless you rescue a thief and drop him nearby, you might as well forget it. Heddwyn has Bolting, but is guarded by a dragon that won't move.)

...Yeah, I'm starting to get the impression that stealing siege tomes is inconvenient AND inefficient.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Zkirsche]

The only flier really strong enough to ORKO the enemies up there and not die is like, maybe Jill, except that even she isn't really fast enough to double a lot of the enemies and not really strong enough to ORKO with a Hand Axe forge (both of which Tauroneo can do), plus she has to pick between the Laguzguard and the Full Guard whereas Tauroneo can take whichever of Knight Ward/Full Guard is more appropiate to the situation, plus she's less durable since she doesn't get the terrain bonus and she's less durable in general and her supports are on the other side of the mountain, plus I'm cagey about assuming that Jill is going to be in play and not STR or SPD screwed.

A 20/11 Jill doubles all but the ravens, the fastest of cats, and the SM's. In fact, resolve!Taur has LESS speed than Jill and only -1 str than taur - which is made up by the fact she can use axes and he can't. Oh snap. That's right, this ridiculous claim thet Taur somehow has ~50 atk has been thrown out the window. Boyd gets that a level 20/5, which he should have got ages ago. Oh and that ~50 atk isn't an exaggeration, you stated he can OHKO the ravens, which requires 52 atk. Even with capped strength and a maxed out silver lance forge, as well as two +atk supports (that just don't exist), Taur only reaches 51 atk. Even if that resolve strength bonus actually works (whcih I'm not sure it does or not), he'd still need a compeltely maxed out silver lance, which we've only had 1 opportunity to forge, which we'd rather invest in an axe anyway as more units use them (Jill/Oscar/Makalov/Astrid/Kieran/Titania/Boyd/Haar/Largo etc all use axes), so this forge doesn't exist.

Oh and he's not even more durable, which is the laughable thing, including the bonuses, he has 24 HP/24 Def, that levelled Jill has 42 HP/21 Def. So for taking 3 more damage per round, she has 18 more HP - that means it takes SIX rounds of atatcks -which all have to hit her - to match Taur's HP level, by which time, Taur will likely die. In fact, if it's so easy to get Taur into resolve level, then it's just as easy for him to take enougth damage to die teh turn afterwards. Resolve does nothing for def and Taur's avo is unsalvageable - so he's not even that durable.

Throw Marcia and Tanith up there, who's earth support together should help lot's. Have them drop Boyd, Vantage+wrath!Mia and Vantage+wrath!Neph and watch as the enemy is decimated in seconds. Heck, you can then have reyson fly up there once the ballistae is dealt with we can throw Reyson up there with the knight ring and boots.

So yeah, there is one person who can emulate this, but it's still useful and Tauroneo should be credited with doing something that Largo cannot.

Largo can also effectively deal with the units at the bottom, but taur cannot do so as well as he can. Credit pl0z.

Actually, Tauroneo is only losing on AS and wins everything else by a country mile. Better strength, better weapon selection, better durability, more accurate weapons.

No he doesn't. He has better durability, oh and "more accurate weapons" comes under better weapon selection, which is false anyway as axes > lance + swords combined. Taur could even use bows and it wouldn't matter, axes just blow everything else out of the water they're so good.

Largo even has more hit if you level him up right. He can have 4 more skl at level 20/11 (8 hit) vs less accurate weapons + 1 less luck (6 hit).

Why should we give Largo anything just so he can match base level Tauroneo?

Because:

a) Taur wasn't at base level. Level 14 is his base, not 16.

B) He beats Taur offensively in multiple departments.

He's still not really durable, ever, especially against Mages.

Then don't have him fight mages/target mages first, which you shoudl be doing anyway as most units (Ike, Boyd + Oscar included) don't like mages.

the Wyvern Lord or the Tiger or some of the Warriors, who also 3HKO him.

All of these he ORKO's, most without forges (the tiger needs a forge or laguz axe, but very few ORKO these, including Boyd IIRC).

Sure, the weak enemies like Halberdiers and Snipers and Swordmasters are ~4HKOing him

Correction, 5HKO'ing him. (see my stats, which you have posted very little of).

, except that generally have crit rates too so he's not even particularly safe against them either.

halbs have 0 listed crit, and Taur only has 1 more luck so even he's not safe from them, especially in resolve HP.

I mean, there are Brave Swordmasters running around that 4HKO him and have double digit crit and ~80 hit.

This guy also 2RKO's resolve Taur and deals quite a bit of damage to most units. So what do you do? Have them targetted first. Most threats can generally be avoided and prevented, so long as you're smart, and thsi tier list assumes that the player is competent enougth to know to kill the strongest enemies first.

So Largo is frequently going to need protection and not be able to make the most of his offense.

No he doesn't, he makes teh most out of it by targetting the right units.

Even if Tauroneo cannot catch up in Chapter 23, he can sit at the back and feast on the delicious reinforcements.

Which means he contributes nothing to the chapter and they alone aren't getting him 2 levels. he's got 1 at the most.

I would not try to play the 'we are advancing insanely fast and Tauroneo will get left behind and not do anything' card. For a start, under such an assumption, Largo is just as much of a waste as Tauroneo, except he can't engage in shenanigans in Chapter 21 and 25.

He is much less of a waste, actually. +1 mov means that after just 3 turns he's already 3 squares ahead of Taur. By teh end of teh chapter, he'd be so far ahead of him that he can just sit still and Taur woudl still not catch up to him.

In fact, due to no paladin rushing possible in chapter 25, he'd actually be part of the group trying to advance insanely fast.

Chapter 21 is minor utility at best and nothing like Largo's amazing ORKO'ing capabilities, especially when most units can do what Taur does anyway.

Largo does not need to survive 'sometimes', he needs to survive 'all the time'.

Which is easily done.

See, I didn't leave a save nearby, but I plan to test this out in Chapter 25 for myself.

PEMN on Largo missing + Taur hitting then.

Enemies mess up Tauroneo's mustache and he obliterates them.

Then they mess up the rest of his body.

And he's useful enough in Chapter 21 since you can only carry so many people to the throne room and the armours are pretty tough.

Not for units with hammers, Jill, Boyd, heck, they just aren't pretty tough.

I just forgot about Chapter 28! derp. 22AS gets like, everything except some Cats and Ravens and Dragons, and he can OHKO the Ravens anyway and he doubles the slower ones. Main issue is that some exceptionally trollish Dragons actually double him before Resolve procs, and they 3HKO.

Again, he only ORKO's the ravens with a silver forge, which we'd want Marcia to have/might not have made period.

Also, Largo 3HKO's those exceptionally trollish dragons bar the very strongest one. Plus, he can double all but the strongest one, which he needs to be 20/18 to get to (which probably won't happen, admittedly).

But the reason it's so good for Chapter 25 is that a Paladin heavy team struggles to reach the top level, and there are only so many good fliers that can perform up there.

There's 3, and various uber foot units taht are better than taur. PLenty IMO. Meanwhile, the paladin heavy team which is struggling to advance is being helped greatly by Largo's impressive ORKO'ing capability.

...Yeah, I'm starting to get the impression that stealing siege tomes is inconvenient AND inefficient.

You forgot the silence stave, which would help to get most of them (read: all but chapter 18's/22's)

Edited August 12, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Shadow Mir]

You forgot the silence stave, which would help to get most of them (read: all but chapter 18's/22's)

I felt it was not worth mentioning, because I'd rather off an enemy mage than try to silence them just so I can steal their tome. Also, 3 uses.

[Zkirsche]

I felt it was not worth mentioning, because I'd rather off an enemy mage than try to silence them just so I can steal their tome. Also, 3 uses.

So that's at least 3 staves, and you can off them after you silence them, since our healers probably have nothing better to do than spam ward or something some of the time, they could instead spam silence. Which has a double purpose - getting the siege tome and giving the user exp, much more, in fact, than a use of a ward normally gives (30 exp vs 17, 5 wexp vs 4).

Edited August 12, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Shadow Mir]

So that's at least 3 staves, and you can off them after you silence them, since our healers probably have nothing better to do than spam ward or something some of the time, they could instead spam silence. Which has a double purpose - getting the siege tome and giving the user exp, much more, in fact, than a use of a ward normally gives (30 exp vs 17, 5 wexp vs 4).

It doesn't mean much if they have it equipped before I silence them, for one. Second, you don't even get many silence staves. And considering that these are sages, after all, there's a chance that Silence fails.

Edited August 12, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Zkirsche]

It doesn't mean much if they have it equipped before I silence them, for one.

I thought silence unequips weapons. In any case, just rush them wit ha pally with a 1-range weapon. Not hard to do at all.

Second, you don't even get many silence staves.

So what? Do you want to put them in a museum or something? Better to use them tahn not, so that's 3 seige tomes, at teh very least (as tehre are some you can get anyway)

And considering that these are sages, after all, there's a chance that Silence fails.

Before factoring distance, a 20/2 Rhys in chapter 18 has a 98% chance of success with a silence. Oh noes, 2%!

[Shadow Mir]

I thought silence unequips weapons. In any case, just rush them wit ha pally with a 1-range weapon. Not hard to do at all.

I don't remember if Silence unequips weapons. Also, if I have to attack a silenced enemy to get them to unequip their weapon, what did I silence them for? A whole lot of nothing, because that tome is going with them to the grave.

So what? Do you want to put them in a museum or something? Better to use them tahn not, so that's 3 seige tomes, at teh very least (as tehre are some you can get anyway)

The only obtainable silence staves I can think of come in chapter 18 and chapter 27 (this one must be stolen). Considering the fact that the siege tomes after that chapter are more trouble to steal than they're worth... Forget it.

Before factoring distance, a 20/2 Rhys in chapter 18 has a 98% chance of success with a silence. Oh noes, 2%!

Never mind the fact that the Silence comes right near the end of that chapter, and the siege tome mages have likely bitten the dust by then.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Anouleth]

A 20/11 Jill doubles all but the ravens, the fastest of cats, and the SM's. In fact, resolve!Taur has LESS speed than Jill and only -1 str than taur - which is made up by the fact she can use axes and he can't. Oh snap. That's right, this ridiculous claim thet Taur somehow has ~50 atk has been thrown out the window. Boyd gets that a level 20/5, which he should have got ages ago. Oh and that ~50 atk isn't an exaggeration, you stated he can OHKO the ravens, which requires 52 atk. Even with capped strength and a maxed out silver lance forge, as well as two +atk supports (that just don't exist), Taur only reaches 51 atk. Even if that resolve strength bonus actually works (whcih I'm not sure it does or not), he'd still need a compeltely maxed out silver lance, which we've only had 1 opportunity to forge, which we'd rather invest in an axe anyway as more units use them (Jill/Oscar/Makalov/Astrid/Kieran/Titania/Boyd/Haar/Largo etc all use axes), so this forge doesn't exist.

The Resolve strength bonus exists, I know it does, I've seen it and I used it to kill Ashnard on Ike.

We have had three chapters to forge Silver weapons. Given that Marcia/Tanith/Nephenee is probably on the top of our priority list and Tauroneo can even take a Silver Sword forge, I think it's ridiculous to drop a guy on the top of the mountain without an appropiate weapon.

Tauroneo with Resolve active can OHKO Ravens with Silver forges or a Laguz Lance.

And you have this strange concept stuck in your mind that Tauroneo is somehow never going to gain any experience. Tauroneo is probably going to be level 16 or 17 going into Chapter 25, not base level.

Oh and he's not even more durable, which is the laughable thing, including the bonuses, he has 24 HP/24 Def, that levelled Jill has 42 HP/21 Def. So for taking 3 more damage per round, she has 18 more HP - that means it takes SIX rounds of atatcks -which all have to hit her - to match Taur's HP level, by which time, Taur will likely die. In fact, if it's so easy to get Taur into resolve level, then it's just as easy for him to take enougth damage to die teh turn afterwards. Resolve does nothing for def and Taur's avo is unsalvageable - so he's not even that durable.

A level 17 Tauroneo with the Knight Ward has 27DEF and 17RES sitting at the top of the mountain. Even the strongest enemy there, the Tiger, only 4HKOes him when he's in Resolve range.

And what makes you say his avoid is unsalvageable? Don't make claims without checking to make sure they're correct. A level 17 Tauroneo w/ KW usage and Resolve active has 22AS/14LUK, which gives him 68AVO with terrain. That's pretty decent and will knock most enemies down below 50 hit.

Throw Marcia and Tanith up there, who's earth support together should help lot's. Have them drop Boyd, Vantage+wrath!Mia and Vantage+wrath!Neph and watch as the enemy is decimated in seconds. Heck, you can then have reyson fly up there once the ballistae is dealt with we can throw Reyson up there with the knight ring and boots.

Trust me, you cannot just throw Tanith and Marcia up there, nor can you drop Neph and Mia. We have only one Full Guard and two Falcoknights to protect from the Ballista. Vantage + Wrath is a horribly unreliable combo, especially when you put it on characters as frail as Mia and Nephenee. I mean, you were bitching about Tauroneo's durability, and he has about 15HP and 10DEF on all the characters you just rattled off, as well as KW access and no ballista vulnerability.

Largo can also effectively deal with the units at the bottom, but taur cannot do so as well as he can. Credit pl0z.

Any idiot with a pulse can fight the enemies at the bottom. Even Paladins can take them out.

No he doesn't. He has better durability, oh and "more accurate weapons" comes under better weapon selection, which is false anyway as axes > lance + swords combined. Taur could even use bows and it wouldn't matter, axes just blow everything else out of the water they're so good.

Uh, yeah, whatever. I'm sure Tauroneo really fucking cares about weapon mt when he has 36STR.

Largo even has more hit if you level him up right. He can have 4 more skl at level 20/11 (8 hit) vs less accurate weapons + 1 less luck (6 hit).

And Tauroneo can have so much more hit if you make sure he gets wounded correctly.

Because:

a) Taur wasn't at base level. Level 14 is his base, not 16.

B) He beats Taur offensively in multiple departments.

This might come to you as a surprise, but characters gain levels when they fight.

Then don't have him fight mages/target mages first, which you shoudl be doing anyway as most units (Ike, Boyd + Oscar included) don't like mages.

Ike and Oscar don't really care about mages. And there's not really much that can be done when many magic users in lategame use siege tomes.

All of these he ORKO's, most without forges (the tiger needs a forge or laguz axe, but very few ORKO these, including Boyd IIRC).

Er, he won't ORKO the Warriors, since they carry bows, and he's short on the close range ones because of the terrain. 38/39ATK needed. And you need about 40ATK for the Wyvern Lords, and they carry Short spears so you need it at range.

Even a Laguz Axe doesn't get Largo to ORKO tigers, either. The one in Chapter 25 has 18AS, so he needs 4 or 5 levels to double.

Correction, 5HKO'ing him. (see my stats, which you have posted very little of).

13 damage is needed to 4HKO Largo. Looking over the stats, most enemies have that, and only Halberdiers/Snipers miss it, but some of them have crit.

halbs have 0 listed crit, and Taur only has 1 more luck so even he's not safe from them, especially in resolve HP.

I said generally, meaning the SMs and Snipers.

This guy also 2RKO's resolve Taur and deals quite a bit of damage to most units. So what do you do? Have them targetted first. Most threats can generally be avoided and prevented, so long as you're smart, and thsi tier list assumes that the player is competent enougth to know to kill the strongest enemies first.

Herr Brave Sword has 26ATK. Tauroneo has 49HP/22DEF. That's 4x2, which is a 3RKO. This is assuming we've somehow taken a blow to the head and Tauroneo is not using a Lance and has never gained any levels (and the SM in question is in Chapter 26).

No he doesn't, he makes teh most out of it by targetting the right units.

So he's a player phase only piece of shit along the lines of Shinon/Rolf/Rhys? That can't be what you're trying to say, but I don't know any other way to interpret this.

Which means he contributes nothing to the chapter and they alone aren't getting him 2 levels. he's got 1 at the most.

Well, I personally find Haar with his Brave Axe of Death pretty fucking scary to deal with. And even if he contributes nothing, that's pretty much equal to what Largo is doing in this chapter anyway.

He is much less of a waste, actually. +1 mov means that after just 3 turns he's already 3 squares ahead of Taur. By teh end of teh chapter, he'd be so far ahead of him that he can just sit still and Taur woudl still not catch up to him.

You take more than three turns on a chapter? O_o

Fact is, both Tauroneo and Largo are slow pieces of shit, and all Largo would ever actually do if he reached the frontlines is die anyway. Tauroneo offers at least some minor help by being rescue-dropped in difficult locations.

In fact, due to no paladin rushing possible in chapter 25, he'd actually be part of the group trying to advance insanely fast.

The most insanely fast units in this chapter are fliers. They set the pace by dropping units onto the top layer. Admittedly, if there are no fliers, Tauroneo kind of fails, but I gauge that as unlikely when there are five potential characters that can drop him.

Chapter 21 is minor utility at best and nothing like Largo's amazing ORKO'ing capabilities, especially when most units can do what Taur does anyway.

Nothing about Largo is amazing. When EnergyDrop!Marcia is beating you in offense, you do not write home to celebrate.

Which is easily done.

Clearly, it's easily ignored by you.

PEMN on Largo missing + Taur hitting then.

As convenient as it might be to sit here and just theorytard all day and accept Wrath/Vantage as manna from heaven, yet deride Resolve as worthless, I actually plan to test this out and prove that it's possible for myself.

Not for units with hammers, Jill, Boyd, heck, they just aren't pretty tough.

Again, I'm cagey about assuming individual characters in play, and offense is dearly limited in the throne room since you only have Reyson + your fliers + Ike + whoever else you could carry in. About 37 or 38 ATK is needed to ORKO armours, and only Boyd and Sages can really do that. Player phase offense is also desireable to deal with Ena and the magic users, since one of them has a Sleep staff.

Again, he only ORKO's the ravens with a silver forge, which we'd want Marcia to have/might not have made period.

Dunno why. If a character is going to stand on the top of the mountain and fight a ton of opponents, I'd want him or her to have a good weapon.

Oh, wait, you're talking about Chapter 28. Well, Tauroneo will definitely have a forge for that chapter. Forges aren't even demand there, since Laguz weapons do generally the same job and you can use Bows for the birds.

Also, Largo 3HKO's those exceptionally trollish dragons bar the very strongest one. Plus, he can double all but the strongest one, which he needs to be 20/18 to get to (which probably won't happen, admittedly).

hahahaha, Largo is NOT doubling the 19AS Dragons. I find it hilarious how you're incredibly stingy with levels for Tauroneo, but somehow Largo, he of the awful durability and meh speed, is going to gain 7 levels in three chapters, where EXP gain is generally ridiculously slow anyway.

There's 3, and various uber foot units taht are better than taur. PLenty IMO. Meanwhile, the paladin heavy team which is struggling to advance is being helped greatly by Largo's impressive ORKO'ing capability.

Uh, Tanith and Marcia don't really have the durability or the offense. And the Paladin team only struggles to advance because they have 4 move, not because they need fucking Largo to clear the way. Seriously, you can just let the Cats suicide into your Paladins. Better than relying on Largo to not only hit, but land a crit too.

[Zkirsche]

I don't remember if Silence unequips weapons. Also, if I have to attack a silenced enemy to get them to unequip their weapon, what did I silence them for? A whole lot of nothing, because that tome is going with them to the grave.

So I just checked and silence doesn't unequip tomes here, but still having them equip a 1-range weapon to provoke the sage isn't as hard as you make it out to be.

Never mind the fact that the Silence comes right near the end of that chapter, and the siege tome mages have likely bitten the dust by then.

I was wrong about the silence but the pedantics mean nothing. Put Rhys in any chapter and he has high silence + sleep rates.

Given that Marcia/Tanith/Nephenee is probably on the top of our priority list

Because they want the forge. They're not asking for it to bed Taur by giving it to him as a gift.

I think it's ridiculous to drop a guy on the top of the mountain without an appropiate weapon.

Then don't do it, as it's harmful elsewhere and he's easily replaceable.

Tauroneo with Resolve active can OHKO Ravens with Silver forges or a Laguz Lance.

2 problems with this:

1) I already said taht he could if teh bonus works.

2) He shouldn't get the forge.

And you have this strange concept stuck in your mind that Tauroneo is somehow never going to gain any experience. Tauroneo is probably going to be level 16 or 17 going into Chapter 25, not base level.

Trust me, you cannot just throw Tanith and Marcia up there, nor can you drop Neph and Mia. We have only one Full Guard and two Falcoknights to protect from the Ballista.

And also various healers.

Your word against mine.

A level 17 Tauroneo with the Knight Ward has 27DEF and 17RES sitting at the top of the mountain. Even the strongest enemy there, the Tiger, only 4HKOes him when he's in Resolve range.

Taur has to get into resolve range in the first place, if he can do that easily, then he can die easily. One cannot exist without the other. Oh, and since he's now out of range of our healers, that damage will build up, even if you do waste the KW on him.

And level 17? Are you shitting me? He get's 4 exp per kill against the majority of those 'delicious' reinforcements in chapter 23, and there isn't 75 of them.

A level 17 Tauroneo

Haha, it get's funnier every time you say it. A 56 avo Taur is not doing nearly as well as this is quite unreliable for someone who is going to go down after a few attacks. Heck, Largo without resolve has 57 avo, and this is what I meant by unsalvageable, as it s compared to nearly every other unit.

Vantage + Wrath is a horribly unreliable combo

Level 20/11 Neph with Vantage + Wrath and a brave lance/forge: 74 avo, 62/71 crit.

Level 20/11 Mia with Vantage + Wrath and a brave sword/forge: 83 avo, 76/85 crit.

Now, take the high hit snipers, who have 111 hit + 5 cev. Neph, the worst of the two, faces a 9% chance of death. But these are some of teh worst enemies for tehse two, so should be targetted by your fleirs beforehand.

Any idiot with a pulse can fight the enemies at the bottom. Even Paladins can take them out.

With restricted mov and less atk, tehy can't do it neary as well as Largo, it's like comparing Lucai to Boyd offensively.

Uh, yeah, whatever. I'm sure Tauroneo really fucking cares about weapon mt when he has 36STR.

Funny, really, that he can OHKO the ravens with a normal silver axe, and not a sivler lance, because of that +1 mt. Oh, the irony.

And Tauroneo can have so much more hit if you make sure he gets wounded correctly.

Yep, by favouriting him over everyone else by a large margin, putting him in a very selective spot which requires specific positioning, making sure noone else is in the nearby vicinity, and weighing units down. All for 18 more superfluous hit.

Good job, you've been awarded a lieftime achievement award in wasting time and resources. That means you're now fully qualified to work at BP.

This might come to you as a surprise, but characters gain levels when they fight.

Not when they're gaining 4 exp a kill and getting very little kills on top of that.

Ike and Oscar don't really care about mages. And there's not really much that can be done when many magic users in lategame use siege tomes.

They do when they're not in each other's support range, whcih is limiting and considering the mov difference and teh different types of units Oscar and Ike are, they often care about getting hit by maes. Oh and you can rush them with fliers liek Jill so they only use 1 use.

Ugh, I'm going to call you Nargaleth now. That post was way too long. I'l edit this later.

[Narga_Rocks]

So I just checked and silence doesn't unequip tomes here,

Unless they need to self heal. Weird but true. Silenced enemy uses a vulnerary/elixir and they unequip their magic tome. How else would you get Rexaura without cheating? Not that it actually matters for the tier list. That's just a fun thing for completionists and masochists. Wait, that was redundant, wasn't it. <- no question mark for a reason

Ugh, I'm going to call you Nargaleth now. That post was way too long. I'l edit this later.

Wait, what? I don't even get my own thing anymore? Anouleth, you are so banned.

[Shadow Mir]

So I just checked and silence doesn't unequip tomes here, but still having them equip a 1-range weapon to provoke the sage isn't as hard as you make it out to be.

I was wrong about the silence but the pedantics mean nothing. Put Rhys in any chapter and he has high silence + sleep rates.

:facepalm: :facepalm:

You DO realize how easy it is to kill a mage, right...? Also, I still think siege tome stealing is inefficient and inconvenient.

Too bad that neither is particularly useful.

[Narga_Rocks]

:facepalm: :facepalm:

You DO realize how easy it is to kill a mage, right...? Also, I still think siege tome stealing is inefficient and inconvenient.

Too bad that neither is particularly useful.

But people talk about having Calill range bomb this and range bomb that.

Now, it doesn't really matter how easy it is to kill a mage. What matters is whether keeping it alive (possibly silenced) while Volke runs all the way over to it to steal the ranged tome is going to cost you a turn. Also whether that tome is going to save a turn later on in the event that you can't pull off the steal without losing a turn. It doesn't matter that Titania or Oscar or Jill or Marcia could have killed that mage a turn or two before Volke was going to steal. Why should that matter at all?

Edited August 13, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Shadow Mir]

But people talk about having Calill range bomb this and range bomb that.

Now, it doesn't really matter how easy it is to kill a mage. What matters is whether keeping it alive (possibly silenced) while Volke runs all the way over to it to steal the ranged tome is going to cost you a turn. Also whether that tome is going to save a turn later on in the event that you can't pull off the steal without losing a turn. It doesn't matter that Titania or Oscar or Jill or Marcia could have killed that mage a turn or two before Volke was going to steal. Why should that matter at all?

I understand that. Didn't you say that they unequip their tomes if they use a vulnerary or elixir when silenced? I wonder if that applies if they get healed by a bishop or something while silenced. And now that you mention it, I'm starting to wonder if they tend to start with their siege tomes equipped or not (in the event they pack more than one tome), though I'm assuming they do.