FE9 Tier list v3

[Anouleth]

Let me theorycraft. Chapters where Boyd being rescue-dropped by fliers is potentially better than what the Paladins can do:

Chapter 11: Marcia can save some time by cutting across the houses in this chapter, but she can't deal with some of the tougher enemies near the Arrive square. She can drop Boyd, let him do the toughest combat (including ORKOing the Knight on the Arrive square) and arrive. (Of course, if we want to recruit Jill, we can't clear this chapter too fast, so this isn't a big win.)

There is very little terrain in this map, so Oscar, Kieran, and Titania can easily keep pace.

Chapter 13: Jill or Marcia can drop Boyd onto the enemy ship on turn 2 to speed up the rout. This probably isn't necessary for a 7-turn clear, but it could be helpful.

Like Chapter 11, there is not enough terrain that Paladins will be slowed down, so Boyd is still not as good.

Chapter 15: If you don't have Super Marcia or Super Soren, Boyd can be dropped near Muarim (on turn 2 at the earliest) to help one-two Muarim with your flier of choice.

I don't know if an unpromoted Boyd + unpromoted Jill or Marcia is sufficient to kill Muarim.

Chapter 20: If Boyd is durable enough (probably needs skills), dropping him up near Shiharam is an option. Shiharam is one tough dude, Boyd is one of the few units who has a chance to ORKO him.

Base level Calill leaves Shiharam on 28/45HP. If she does that twice with Reyson's help, base level Tanith can ORKO Shiharam, letting another flier Arrive. No rescue-dropping needed. More likely, Calill only needs to attack once, since only 36ATK is needed to 2HKO Shiharam after Calill weakens, something that Jill can achieve, at either 20/9 or at 20/4 w/ Energy Drop (since Boyd himself needs to be level 20/3 to double Shiharam with the Speedwing, it's not unreasonable).

As for ORKOing Shiharam, Boyd would need to be level 20/15 to do that. And while it's a cute trick, it's obviously not necessary.

Chapter 25: Dropping somebody at the top of the cliffs is the way to go. Boyd has the best offense, but Tauroneo or Wrath/Vantage Nephenee are more durable.

I found that I didn't need to drop anyone at the top of the cliffs, and I didn't even have Jill.

Probably not. But dropping Sage Soren or Ilyana or Boyd or Ike or Mia or Zihark to one-two with a flier is much more realistic, more realistic than banking on an uncertain ORKO from Super Marcia (the Laguz Lance has low hit), as well.

And the downside is that not only does an unpromoted unit not 2RKO Muarim, but generally, they have worse hit as well. For example, an unpromoted level 16 Boyd has a horrible 51 display hit on Muarim with the Laguz Axe and leaves Muarim on 18HP, meaning that Jill or Marcia would have to use the Laguz Lance to finish (and if they're unpromoted, the hit rate will be awful as well). Talking about using an unpromoted unit to take on Muarim is ridiculous, and there's no point in continuing this asinine line of logic.

Just a heads up, people here assume those that are good with a resource, get the resource with less cost than someone bad with it. Furthermore, if you are the best use of a resource, you get it for free. Marcia is a pretty damn good person to BEXP too.

I didn't realise smashfanatic was unbanned.

[Zkirsche]

I didn't realise smashfanatic was unbanned.

That's just doritos explained, albeit with "best = free", which was a mistake on my part. Should've said gets the least cost.

[aku chi]

And why wouldn't we train Marcia and Jill? They're the #2 and #3 best units in the game (behind Titania).

I don't like making unit deployment assumptions. People might have a variety of reasons for not training Marcia and/or Jill.

And it is obviously contentious whether or not Marcia is better than the other top tier units, that's what the past discussion has been about (personally, I don't think Marcia has any case over Oscar, and a weak case over Kieran).

The problem with unequiping Boyd is that the Tigers will block his path to Muarim, and he'll still need to heal. And a Sage will get killed.

There are only two relevant Tigers, so it's easy to position your droppee so as not to be blocked (also, you can place your flier with a weapon equipped just north of the dropped unit, ensuring that the Tigers flank attack your unarmed droppee). Moreover, the Sages have enough movement to be dropped outside of the Tigers' attack range and still reach Muarim. And Boyd doesn't need to tank a hit from Muarim if he delivers the finishing blow (as I suggested).

What I usually do is have Marcia stand in front of Muarim with a left over Iron Sword forge (and the Laguzguard), weakening the Tigers and Muarim, and finishing Muarim with a Steel Lance forge after Stefan is recruited. That's not to say that's the only way to do it, of course. But I believe it's best to just send your preferred flier to deal with Muarim alone.

If your Marcia is tough enough to pull this off, it's a sound strategy. The drop strategy works at least as well.

Are you saying that Boyd, Kieran and Oscar will never get BEXP? Of course there's a cost for using BEXP; I don't believe she gets it for free. However, her performance with it more than makes up for that.

They require far less Bexp. The difference in Bexp is a cost attributed to optimally Bexping Marcia. Whether she can make up for this cost with superior utility is the question of the day. With Boyd, I think Marcia has a case. With Oscar, I don't think Marcia can even match his utility, let alone overcome her more costly needs.

What? No. Stop making things up. The performance of the second-best person, relative to the best, is usually pretty important.

Indeed. Opportunity cost means the best alternative forgone. Let us assume that Marcia is the best candidate for 1000 Bexp before Chapter 15. When we consider using this Bexp for any other unit, the benefit it could provide to Marcia is the opportunity cost, and that cost is necessarily going to be higher than the benefit of giving the Bexp to that other unit (as per our assumption). If, instead, we give it to Marcia, there is still an opportunity cost: it is the benefit that the next best user of the Bexp would receive. Maybe that user is Jill, or Astrid, or Makalov: all of those units can make great use of that Bexp. Marcia taking it deprives them of that opportunity: that is a cost. As a result of our assumption, this opportunity cost must be less than the benefit Marcia gets from the Bexp, but it is still a cost that must be taken into account.

Additions:

It's just that in all my draft runs lately, I don't ever remember seeing her appear (with the exception of one time where I had to reset anyway), but I always ended up recruiting her. I've always finished in 5 turns, so if she appears after that player phase, she definitely doesn't need to appear to be recruited.

She must have her scene before turn 5 player phase, then.

There is very little terrain in this map, so Oscar, Kieran, and Titania can easily keep pace.

I believe that the Marcia drop strategy can save a turn, which is only relevant if we're forgoing Jill for some reason.

Like Chapter 11, there is not enough terrain that Paladins will be slowed down, so Boyd is still not as good.

Are you kidding me? The bridges being choked by enemies means that Paladins can't reach the enemy ship on turn 2 like a flier and their cargo can. Whether or not this is meaningful to a 7-turn clear is less certain.

I don't know if an unpromoted Boyd + unpromoted Jill or Marcia is sufficient to kill Muarim.

And the downside is that not only does an unpromoted unit not 2RKO Muarim, but generally, they have worse hit as well. For example, an unpromoted level 16 Boyd has a horrible 51 display hit on Muarim with the Laguz Axe and leaves Muarim on 18HP, meaning that Jill or Marcia would have to use the Laguz Lance to finish (and if they're unpromoted, the hit rate will be awful as well). Talking about using an unpromoted unit to take on Muarim is ridiculous, and there's no point in continuing this asinine line of logic.

Boyd being promoted by Chapter 15 without favoritism is pretty reasonable. 20/1 Boyd can deal 22 damage to Muarim with an accurate Steel Forge. So your flier will need a Laguz Lance to finish. To be honest, a Sage or Swordmaster would be a better drop option. A 20/2 Soren can deal 27 damage with a Fire Forge (with great accuracy). A Swordmaster is almost guaranteed to be able to double Muarim (with great accuracy), easily dropping him down below 15 HP.

Edited April 13, 2011 by aku chi

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't like making unit deployment assumptions. People might have a variety of reasons for not training Marcia and/or Jill.

I agree that we shouldn't make deployment assumptions. However, since we're arguing Marcia, we should assume we're using her.

There are only two relevant Tigers, so it's easy to position your droppee so as not to be blocked (also, you can place your flier with a weapon equipped just north of the dropped unit, ensuring that the Tigers flank attack your unarmed droppee). Moreover, the Sages have enough movement to be dropped outside of the Tigers' attack range and still reach Muarim. And Boyd doesn't need to tank a hit from Muarim if he delivers the finishing blow (as I suggested).

Both units would need to be able to survive both hits from the Tigers, and there's only one Laguzguard. Also, a Sage would need to be ridiculously high leveled to be able to double Muarim. I don't think this argument is important however, since there are a multitude of ways to complete the chapter using any combination of units.

If your Marcia is tough enough to pull this off, it's a sound strategy. The drop strategy works at least as well.

She only has to be 20/1 I believe. Although I might have given her an Energy Drop...

They require far less Bexp. The difference in Bexp is a cost attributed to optimally Bexping Marcia. Whether she can make up for this cost with superior utility is the question of the day. With Boyd, I think Marcia has a case. With Oscar, I don't think Marcia can even match his utility, let alone overcome her more costly needs.

Oscar's 'utility' is another high move fighter when we already have Titania and 6 others (3 other Weapon Knights and 3 Beast Laguz). Marcia is one of two fliers until Tanith and the Hawks join. Oscar may help early on before Marcia joins, but I'm not of the opinion that that's enough to overcome the fact that there's a LOT of terrain in this game that Marcia can just fly over.

I see Marcia > Kieran and Boyd as a lock. Oscar I'm not as sure, due to his early game contributions and ability to take Axes after promotion, but I think Marcia's flight is more important.

She must have her scene before turn 5 player phase, then.

If I recall correctly, it's at the beginning or end of turn 5 Enemy Phase. I have also fallen victim of missing Jill due to finishing that map too quickly, but I don't think it's related solely to Jill's appearance.

[Shadow Mir]

If I recall correctly, it's at the beginning or end of turn 5 Enemy Phase. I have also fallen victim of missing Jill due to finishing that map too quickly, but I don't think it's related solely to Jill's appearance.

I think she appears at the end of Turn 4 Enemy Phase.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

So, does Devdan really deserve Mid Tier for basically being a warm body with 6 Move and 1-2 range?

[Florete]

Well, he has 7 Move.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

...Whoops. Was thinking GBA standard promoted movement, forgot for a moment that move is greater in FE9.

The point remains, though. Several characters even in Low Tier have something they're kind of useful at, but it seems to me all that Devdan has to offer is more availability with which to be pretty bleh.

Edited April 14, 2011 by Fruitloop Multipuck

[-Cynthia-]

He can get pretty good offense with the KW and his defenses are solid. Devdan's a very...average unit. Main thing he has over the people in Low Tier is availability.

Marcia right below Oscar for now.

[Radiant Dragon]

Why are Geoffrey, Calill and Tormod below Sothe, Gatrie and Brom?

[-Cynthia-]

Sothe is probably moving down at some point.

Gatrie and Brom have more availability than Geoffrey/Calill/Tormod and Gatrie has earlygame utility.

[Radiant Dragon]

Geoffrey only has 2 chapters (26 and 27) of real use, and Calill has the same move as them I suppose...

But why Tormod? He doesn't join that late, has Celerity, good offense and can use some staves when he promotes.

[-Cynthia-]

Tormod's not very good at base. We can give him a lot of BEXP to turn him into a decent unit of course, but it's not as if he's the only unit wanting BEXP.

Staff use is all right, but he joins a little late to get to a very good rank probably. His durability is also somewhat of an issue.

[Life]

I'd like to see Stefan > Mia, personally.

I don't know if we're counting Stefan's recruitment against him but just look at a basic comparison at the start of Chapter 16.

Stefan - Level 8 Swordsman - S Swords
Vague Katti: 31 Att, 139 Hit, 25 AS, 63 Crit
Iron Blade: 28 Att, 129 Hit, 25 AS, 28 Crit
38 HP, 55 Avo, 5 Dodge, 12(15) Def, 9 Res

Mia - Level 16 Myrmidon - B Swords - B Rhys, C Ilyana
Steel Sword (Forge): 26 Att, 120 Hit, 19 AS, 16 Crit
Killing Edge: 22 Att, 120 Hit, 19 AS, 37 Crit
26 HP, 47 Avo, 9 Dodge, 9 Def, 4 Res

First off, I'm really iffy on Mia having B Ilyana instead of C. FirexLight at B level is 1 Att, 1 Def and 5 Acc. Yippie. To get this support, Ilyana's got to be fielded in every chapter from when she joins until Chapter 16, along with Mia. As a result, I gave the support a C level for the time being which is really... well, 2 Acc.

Next thing. To maximize Mia's offense, best case scenario is to give her the highly coveted Killing Edge that Zihark also likes or to forge a Steel Sword with 5+ Att, 1- Wt and 9+ Crit. I think we're looking at about a ~7700G sword for Mia in the second case. At this stage in the game, that's a lot of money. We can remove the critical to drop it down to ~3200 but that's still no cakewalk right now. And then there's still the matter of Mia still not equaling Stefan's damage output, even with her B Rhys support. She does come close but that's only after we've tossed her a very pricey sword and Stefan still has a ton of natural Crit on her.

Defensively, Mia's just gotten past the joke stage. Assuming Wrath/Vantage, 22 Att 2RKOs the girl. The only people who have that are the Fighter (even after WTD) and Kimaarsi. But this isn't to say that her defense is stable. She's still 2 range bait to the stuff like Archers and Mages that litter this map. Stefan is too but the 21 Att Sniper 5RKOs him 4% of the time (assuming a hit for each attack) while just missing a 2RKO on Mia. If Mia is barely usable for her defense, Stefan is a brick wall make out of fuck.

Mia's clearly got growth time and availability to her name but Stefan nets you better results with just the Vague Katti (he's the only person who can use up until around Chapter 22/23 when Mia/Zihark hit S Swords) and possibly an Ashera Icon (who else actually needs those?) to get rid of those pesky crit rates. Mia requires forges, Rhys to be fielded all the time along with Ilyana, BExp and Wrath. Is the result that we get from putting all of those resources into Mia worth it at the end or do we get the same/better result with minimal input for Stefan?

Edited April 26, 2011 by Life

[Narga_Rocks]

Well, your first problem is arguing Mia being only level 16 in chapter 16. That's ridiculous so until you can fix that, there's no point dealing with the rest of your statement.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=640&p=592058entry592058 (level 18 in chapter 13, so that's 2 levels higher 3 chapters earlier than you are giving her credit for. Come ON)

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&view=findpost&p=592185

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=800&p=598901entry598901 (team levels in chapter 18, as well as the amount of bexp he has left over)

So yeah. Try 20/1 or 20/0 in chapter 16, or possibly even 20/2. At least make your argument with reasonable levels on Mia rather than an abysmal level 16.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Radiant Dragon]

Tormod's not very good at base. We can give him a lot of BEXP to turn him into a decent unit of course, but it's not as if he's the only unit wanting BEXP.

Can someone please explain to me why using BEXP is such a large negative? There's so much BEXP in this game that you basically choose who to use, give them the BEXP they need to be good, and use them. I'll admit Tormod takes more BEXP than most other units besides Mist/Rhys/Rolf, however. But this doesn't mean that by using him you can't use other really good units.

However, we get a very good unit for giving him this BEXP. We get a 7-8 move unit who can ORKO or 2RKO with accurate 2-range without a forge (and if you want to give him a forge, he should ORKO most every non-boss enemy). Not to mention he can use long-range tomes and staves (albeit not much more than Heal/Mend) when he promotes.

What do we get with Gatrie or Brom? A unit with 5-6 move that can't ORKO much of anything even with a forge, doesn't have good 2-range without forges or rare weapons, and can't use siege tomes or heal other units. They may require less BEXP to do their job, which is to be an indestructible wall to physical attacks, but Tormod brings so much more to the team. You get what you pay for, I suppose.

As for Tormod's durability, he's 3HKO'd or 4HKO'd by most non-boss enemies, so while he's not as durable as the Knights, it's not horrible. Unless you're arguing we're throwing him into a large group of enemies by himself, but enemy density in this game is pretty low for the most part, anyway.

As for Mia vs. Stefan, I'm not sure. Mia exists when Stefan doesn't, then edges out a slight win in the later chapters due to more avoid and better skills, but there's a large period during midgame where Stefan is better than Mia.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Radiant Dragon

[Life]

Well, your first problem is arguing Mia being only level 16 in chapter 16. That's ridiculous so until you can fix that, there's no point dealing with the rest of your statement.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=640&p=592058entry592058 (level 18 in chapter 13, so that's 2 levels higher 3 chapters earlier than you are giving her credit for. Come ON)

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&view=findpost&p=592185

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=16443&st=800&p=598901entry598901 (team levels in chapter 18, as well as the amount of bexp he has left over)

So yeah. Try 20/1 or 20/0 in chapter 16, or possibly even 20/2. At least make your argument with reasonable levels on Mia rather than an abysmal level 16.

My bad, haven't played the game in a long time and I'm used to having all of my units promote in Chapter 17.

[aku chi]

I'd like to see Stefan > Mia, personally.

Your direct Chapter 16 comparison places Mia at a very low level; she can probably reach that level with no Bexp at all. But Mia isn't worth using without a little investment, so I'm not sure that is a meaningful comparison.

But let us also consider how Mia can contribute before Stefan even joins:

Chapter 7: It's a rout chapter so Mia can help contribute to some kills. Only Titania and Ike are going to be ORKOing with any consistency at this point, so Mia's chipping is appreciated.

Chapter 9: With a little Bexp (and a Ward staff use), Mia can handle herself well on the beach; so she can help get the goodies.

Chapter 11: Mia can head south and deal with the axe-wielding enemies there so that the southern house can be visited.

Chapter 12: With enough AS, Mia can double, and ORKO with the Laguzslayer, some of the Ravens, allowing us to end the chapter a turn early if we aren't pursuing the Ravens with flyers. Mia needs 18 AS for the reinforcement Ravens, which she can get on average around level 16. She needs both 12 Strength and 20 Speed to ORKO all of the Ravens, which requires level 18 or 19. Mia needs a notable amount of Bexp to pull this off, but it isn't a crippling amount.

Chapter 13: To clear this chapter early, we need to rout, so Mia can be helpful here.

Chapter 15: If Mia reaches 20/1, she can double Muarim and deal serious damage, so she's a good drop candidate.

Then Stefan takes a notable lead, and can really help in Chapters 17-1, 18, and 19 (he can ORKO Homasa at base) with no resources. Beyond that, neither of them can contribute much to the map objectives outside of Chapter 25, due to 7 mov and 1-range, but they can help clear a path or accomplish secondary objectives in a few chapters.

[Shadow Mir]

Chapter 11: Mia can head south and deal with the axe-wielding enemies there so that the southern house can be visited.

Not a very noteworthy accomplishment considering those axemen are complete wimpolas...

[Radiant Dragon]

Chapter 7: It's a rout chapter so Mia can help contribute to some kills. Only Titania and Ike are going to be ORKOing with any consistency at this point, so Mia's chipping is appreciated.

Umm... Ike is not ORKOing consistently yet. Boyd and Oscar on the other hand, should get most everything except Knights. Mia does help here though, but I had to point that out.

Chapter 12: With enough AS, Mia can double, and ORKO with the Laguzslayer, some of the Ravens, allowing us to end the chapter a turn early if we aren't pursuing the Ravens with flyers. Mia needs 18 AS for the reinforcement Ravens, which she can get on average around level 16. She needs both 12 Strength and 20 Speed to ORKO all of the Ravens, which requires level 18 or 19. Mia needs a notable amount of Bexp to pull this off, but it isn't a crippling amount.

It's still a lot of BEXP. It's probably better to have Mia team up with other units for kills here.

[Colonel M]

Curious in-the-dark-question: Has anyone used both Marcia and Mia in a playthrough? Considering Marcia (supposedly) requires a boatload of BEXP to do some of the noted things, I thought of the situation of how Mia would impact it, if at all, if both were used at the same time. My guess is nothing would really change for Marcia nor Mia, but I'm too busy to pick up the game. FE12, fanfictions, writing how Skarmory is a baller, arguing on the internet, being called Rick James by women... you know the drill by now.

[Radiant Dragon]

Hmm... I can see it being difficult to have enough BEXP for Marcia, Mia and some other units of your choice (such as Ilyana, Mist, Nephenee etc.) and still have some left over for your other units, since they all join at almost the same time and all (well, except Mist) need a BEXP influx at the beginning to be good.

I'm not sure how this would affect their positions, though.

[Colonel M]

*Me cracks neck*

Let's assume for a moment we recognize this BEXP dump as positive for efficiency, comprende?

If so, then that means that it's POSSIBLE there's a BEXP limit to go around (to an extent) for other units such as Mia and your other landlubbers. So it's possible there's a BEXP crunch. This could hurt Mia in the process, unless it's proven there's still enough to go around. Hence why I asked if a playthrough with Mia AND Marcia has been done yet.

[aku chi]

Umm... Ike is not ORKOing consistently yet. Boyd and Oscar on the other hand, should get most everything except Knights. Mia does help here though, but I had to point that out.

Your experience may differ, but I find Ike is at a higher level and can therefore handle himself better in Chapter 7 (due to Boyd and Oscar being MIA in Chapters 3 and 4). And swords being lighter is probably most relevant at this stage in the game, because Boyd and Oscar might still be weighed down by Steel weapons, but Ike is most likely not. Regardless, it's unlikely that Ike, Boyd, and Oscar will all be ORKOing here, so Mia can team up with one of them to finish kills.

It's still a lot of BEXP. It's probably better to have Mia team up with other units for kills here.

The benefit of the ORKO is being able to finish the chapter on enemy phase, saving a turn. No unit other than Mia or Zihark can do this unpromoted (on average). And Titania needs to be level 9 for 18 AS plus she can struggle to 2HKO because she lacks an effective weapon. Lethe can't 2HKO even if she happens to be transformed at the time and can double. Besides the Myrmidons, a level 20 Ike who got slightly fortunate with Speed growths is the most realistic option to pull this off.

With respect to the BEXP use: Marcia, Makalov, Astrid, and Jill are the most needy (arguably in that order). (Mist, Rolf, and the Mages might also need a lot of Bexp to give them good combat, but that isn't necessary.) If you're training all four, you might find that there isn't much Bexp to spend elsewhere, but then you probably don't have much need for a trained Mia. If you are dumping >1000 Bexp to make Super Marcia, Mia's chapter 12 and 15 contributions are generally superfluous. But this isn't the only way to play, so dropping 500 Bexp on Mia instead seems like a relevant scenario to consider.

[Florete]

*Me cracks neck*

Let's assume for a moment we recognize this BEXP dump as positive for efficiency, comprende?

If so, then that means that it's POSSIBLE there's a BEXP limit to go around (to an extent) for other units such as Mia and your other landlubbers. So it's possible there's a BEXP crunch. This could hurt Mia in the process, unless it's proven there's still enough to go around. Hence why I asked if a playthrough with Mia AND Marcia has been done yet.

I really doubt it would have a notable impact. I didn't have Mia, but it takes just one look at my Tellius PoR draft to realize you barely need more than Marcia/Titania/Ike/Tiger to get good turn counts. A Marcia that got 2 levels of BEXP in Ch 10 and up to 50 BEXP in every base after that. And this tier list, as far as I know, isn't even technically like a draft where you need to get as low as possible. If there's not enough BEXP for whoever you're using, granted you aren't using someone like Rolf who sinks it, you are using too many units.