FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[frat_tastic]

Lyn gains Bows, 1 move, 3 HP, 2 STR, 2 SKL, 3 DEF 5 RES and 1 CON.

Lyn gets more out of her promo because of the durability boost, plus bows to avoid eating counters. Eliwood's promotion is far from "so much better". He shafts her, plain and simple.

[Tangerine]

Jeez, I take a short break for the weekend and am immediately reminded of why I refuse to debate with certain people. I rather like the brain cells I've developed over the years ;).

[grandjackal]

Going by that logic, what right does KArel have to take it off Guy when he's 242498797x better than Karel? lol

Maybe because Guy needs to promote at level 20 just to tie him? Considering we're rotating characters, I find it hard to believe people will be promoting at level 20 Even at Karel's joining time. 16 chapters Guy has of availability before Karel shows up, we're rotating for the sake of the exp rank, do tell me how he gets to level 20 promotion, especially since he has to sit behind Raven for the hero crest (who gets hand axes, and with his Str, he does well enough with hand axes).

And how does it not suck. Attacking from a range with it halves the attacker's Str and it targets Res. The only enemies Karel would use it against are magicians and lance users wielding a Javelin. In fact, it really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really, really sucks.

Or, he would attack whoever he wants at range, because he can. Then let's compare.

Karel with a Light Brand has 17 might, Isadora with a hand axe has 20 might physical. Then we consider resistance is for the most part a smaller stat among then enemy than defense...

[frat_tastic]

And Isadora loses 6 AS from a hand axe...

[HJ.]

What are you trying to say, that Guy won't be 20/0 before chapter 27? I'm at a loss for words here. I can offer you an acronym, though: LOL

It's 17 Mt against 21 Mt, but nevermind that. You're either attacking a lance wielder or a magic user in this comparison, I don't see why you'd do that. And Karel still doesn't have a monopoly on the Light Brand at all, I don't know where you're getting that from.

Lyn fan: A horse+Lances >>> Bows. Lyn's durability still sucks, Eliwood becomes even more durable and offensively better. The team clearly wants Eliwood to promote more.

[frat_tastic]

No, the team wants Lyn to promote by far more than Eliwood. Eliwood promotes into a fairly durable unit with meh offense.

Lyn's promotion increases her durability fairly significantly, which is better overall for the team than Eliwood becoming a cavalier with better caps. We don't have to worry about Lyn dying as much now.

Eliwood is the better unit when he promoted, yes. The team wants Lyn to promote first more though, since the team gets more out of it in the reduction of Lyn's durability liability.

[HJ.]

Actually, the team would just prefer to bench Lyn. Why waste 20k on giving your team a bleh unit and robbing it of a better unit? Where is the logic behind that?

Anyways, not unlike what you did with Crimson_Edge, I've decided I won this debate several posts ago but you guys just refuse to acknowledge it, so I'll stop responding since it's not worth my time anymore. You fought well guys, but it looks like I win in the end. Ah, I'm really digging this mentality, it's no wonder you guys adopted it so long ago.

[grandjackal]

What are you trying to say, that Guy won't be 20/0 before chapter 27? I'm at a loss for words here. I can offer you an acronym, though: LOL

Nice proof.

It's 17 Mt against 21 Mt, but nevermind that. You're either attacking a lance wielder or a magic user in this comparison, I don't see why you'd do that. And Karel still doesn't have a monopoly on the Light Brand at all, I don't know where you're getting that from.

Yes, whatever at the 21 might because resistance is still the smaller stat.

Now here is the thing you seem to just be ignoring. 1. Both counter range, 2. More physical enemies than magical, 3. If I'm attacking at range, it doesn't matter whant I'm hitting if it can't counter back. With that, for the most aprt, Karel's resistance hitter is superior to Isadora's physical.

As for the Light brand, Guy has yet to be proven to be promoted by now (and again it's ranked, you have exp rotation and funds from using the Hero Crest, along with competition for the crest in the form of Raven, and even after promotion they basically use it equally well as eachother), it's a similar story for Eliwood and Lyn in promotion competition (and Eliwood still has speed problems compared with Karel using it, Lyn cant hit as hard with it until deep after promotion), Raven has hand axes and monsterous strength so he can do without, lolthieves, cavs that DON'T suck do well enough for similar reasons, I don't see why he wouldn't want it. Isadora's his only competition, and she's basically statistically worse.

Actually, the team would just prefer to bench Lyn. Why waste 20k on giving your team a bleh unit and robbing it of a better unit? Where is the logic behind that?

Same could be said for Eliwood.

Anyways, not unlike what you did with Crimson_Edge, I've decided I won this debate several posts ago but you guys just refuse to acknowledge it, so I'll stop responding since it's not worth my time anymore. You fought well guys, but it looks like I win in the end. Ah, I'm really digging this mentality, it's no wonder you guys adopted it so long ago.

You haven't shown any proof, you've done nothing but make baseless claims. You're free to think you won, and it's probably better since it means we don't have to hear you make more baseless claims.

To think I was once like this...

Edited February 17, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[frat_tastic]

Lyn can't be just "bleh" when you look at stats. She's losing to Eliwood in durability (mainly just from DEF, and Eliwood is actually one of your most durable units thanks to supports) and beating him in offense. If Lyn is "bleh", then Eliwood is only a little better than "bleh".

And no u.

[dondon151]

You've got to be pulling my leg. Are you this dense or just messing around...?

You're the dense one here, sir, if you can't back up "lol Light Brand is a joke" with substantive numbers. If you did, you wouldn't have to be wasting so much space arguing about it with GJ.

The first chapter in which 1-2 range really matters for Karel is chapter 29. Karel with his 17 atk is countering 12 res monks, 10 res shamans, and 8 res mages. He's not coming close to ORKOing anything here from range, and even if we were to consider the fact that he could counter from range, everyone else that can do it will score ORKOs.

The def-res gap doesn't really work in Karel's favor when he's around. And the Light Brand is only 25 uses anyway, so you can't pretend that Karel's 1-2 range has any hint of being good.

Promote them, and Eliwood's offense only increases by +1 ATK and Lances. Lyn however gets 4 HP, 3 DEF and 5 RES, bringing her DEF up to 11 (compared to promo eliwood's 15). She benefits more from promoting than he does, so he's shafting her and your team even MORE than she is shafting him.

Aw, it's just +1 atk and lances. Nevermind the instant 1-2 range (since Eliwood starts at D), nevermind the mount, bows and still poor durability is worth the tradeoff!

Edited February 17, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

I don't think GJ's argument even hinged entirely on the Light Brand. If it did, it was just a "foot note".

[grandjackal]

The first chapter in which 1-2 range really matters for Karel is chapter 29. Karel with his 17 atk is countering 12 res monks, 10 res shamans, and 8 res mages. He's not coming close to ORKOing anything here from range, and even if we were to consider the fact that he could counter from range, everyone else that can do it will score ORKOs.

The def-res gap doesn't really work in Karel's favor when he's around. And the Light Brand is only 25 uses anyway, so you can't pretend that Karel's 1-2 range has any hint of being good.

Perhaps not good all the time, but I still don't see how range combat and 2 move makes a tier difference, especially when contending with someone who's direct combat is better (even despite the weapon triangle in Isa's advantage), and is more durable.

EDIT: Basically, it was a foot note the light brand, which is why I found it a rather silly and small thing to counter the entireity of the argument.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[dondon151]

Perhaps not good all the time, but I still don't see how range combat and 2 move makes a tier difference, especially when contending with someone who's direct combat is better (even despite the weapon triangle in Isa's advantage), and is more durable.

Because Isadora is around for longer, has a mount, has range, and is performing similarly to top/high tier units when she joins. How is that not at least a tier difference? You're just brushing off all of those advantages as if it were dandruff on your shoulder without thinking about their implications.

[grandjackal]

Because Isadora is around for longer, has a mount, has range, and is performing similarly to top/high tier units when she joins. How is that not at least a tier difference? You're just brushing off all of those advantages as if it were dandruff on your shoulder without thinking about their implications.

5 chapters, 2 of them tiny (New Resolve, Crazed Beast), 1 is a desert which is just so pleasant for mounts, Genesis destroys her tiny HP thanks to their 29-31 might with sniper magic to her 6 Res, forgive me if I'm not awfully impressed by her move. Then, as we see, Karel then just shows up and destroys her outside of range combat and 2 move. I would see how well her range combat fares, but the stats have yet to come in. When they do, I'll compare, but just checking chapter 25, 20 might with that hand axe doesn't seem all too impressive as it only seems to kill pegasi and the most weakling of enemies. It so far doesn't seem too good, and if it continues like this it's only gonna get worse with which the rate she's growing (that being slowly).

She's free to claim she's good for those 5 chapters (though she's awful in at least 2 of them), but it doesn't stop Karel from showing up to be vastly superior.

EDIT: Pardon me, 6 chapters

Edited February 17, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[dondon151]

5 chapters, 2 of them tiny (New Resolve, Crazed Beast),

New Resolve is tiny? That's news to me. Crazed Beast also does not really fit my definition of "tiny," but it's still relatively small.

Genesis destroys her tiny HP thanks to their 29-31 might with sniper magic to her 6 Res, forgive me if I'm not awfully impressed by her move.

18/0 Sain has 32.6 HP/3.4 res - 2RKO'd. 18/0 Kent has 34.45 HP/5.25 res - 2RKO'd. Having 8 move is important on this map (it lets you move across exactly 2 rooms, breaking walls every turn).

Then, as we see, Karel then just shows up and destroys her outside of range combat and 2 move. I would see how well her range combat fares, but the stats have yet to come in.

20 MT attacking def ORKOs every unpromoted enemy on CoD. GG, Karel. And once again, 2 move is a big deal. It matters on chapter 28, 28x, and 32.

[grandjackal]

New Resolve is tiny? That's news to me. Crazed Beast also does not really fit my definition of "tiny," but it's still relatively small.

A flier is best for the upper right fortress, the lower left fortress is basically nothing but woods, and Pascal's is a small walk away. It's tiny for the intended use.

As for New Resolve, maybe it's not tiny if you're thinking of running up to Eubans, the only thing that's really far away in this map.

Boss Eubans, L6 Paladin w/ Spear and dropped Knight Crest, standing in the very bottom right corner of the map, moves if you go into his range

27 Atk, 99 Hit, 15 Crit----41 Hp, 13 Def, 15 Res, 25 Avo, 10 AS, 5 CEV

I don't think Isadora has any business fighting this man. 28 HP and 8 Def, 10 Luck, and only doubling with an iron sword/lance, she doesn't even have any business fighting him, not alone anyways.

18/0 Sain has 32.6 HP/3.4 res - 2RKO'd. 18/0 Kent has 34.45 HP/5.25 res - 2RKO'd. Having 8 move is important on this map (it lets you move across exactly 2 rooms, breaking walls every turn).

Fine fine, she's not garbage in Genesis, I admit I jumped the gun on that one before relooking it over.

20 MT attacking def ORKOs every unpromoted enemy on CoD. GG, Karel. And once again, 2 move is a big deal. It matters on chapter 28, 28x, and 32.

Chapter 25

Cavaliers: 37 L11 Cavs w/ Steel Lances (reinforcements appear 7 at a time)

19-21 Atk, 84-88 Hit, 3-4 Crit----29-33 Hp, 7-9 Def, 1-3 Res, 8-12 Avo, 4-6 AS

Six have Halberds: 21-23 Atk, 74-76 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 8-12 Avo, 4-6 AS

Five have Hammers: 21-22 Atk, 67-71 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 8-10 Avo, 4-5 AS

Three have Steel Axes: 21-22 Atk, 79-81 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 8-12 Avo, 4-6 AS

One has a Hand Axe: 17 Atk, 76 Hit, 4 Crit, 16 Avo, 8 AS

One has a Swordslayer: 22 Atk, 94 Hit, 8 Crit, 12 Avo, 6 AS

Two have Iron Axes: 19 Atk, 89-91 Hit, 3-4 Crit, 18 Avo, 9 AS

29-31 Hp, 4-5 Def, 1-3 Res

Archers: 3 L11 Archers w/ Steel Bows

18-19 Atk, 86-88 Hit, 4 Crit----28-30 Hp, 5-6 Def, 2-3 Res, 10-12 Avo, 5-6 AS

It barely kills the scrubbiest units in Crazed Beast, you expect me to believe it's better in CoD? Where the hand axe weighing her down by 6 at level 10 reduces her to 14 AS, enough for the 18 AS Valkyries (apparently the slowest) to double her?

Speaking of which, I see a lot of 2-3HKOs in her name in this chapter...

[Life]

New Resolve is Chapter 21 with Oleg (Warrior) as the boss. Kinship's Bond is Chapter 22 with Eubans (Paladin) as the boss. Just thought I might correct you.

New Resolve actually is pretty small. Takes about 5 turns to make it to the other side of the map and face Oleg with ground units (non-horsey). If that's not small, I don't know what is.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[grandjackal]

New Resolve is Chapter 21 with Oleg (Warrior) as the boss. Kinship's Bond is Chapter 22 with Eubans (Paladin) as the boss. Just thought I might correct you.

New Resolve actually is pretty small. Takes about 5 turns to make it to the other side of the map and face Oleg with ground units. If that's not small, I don't know what is.

Whoops, my bad. Good call, thanks for the correction.

Meant Kindship's Bond, since Isadora's not in New Resolve anyways.

[Life]

Whoops, my bad. Good call, thanks for the correction.

Meant Kindship's Bond, since Isadora's not in New Resolve anyways.

Now that I think about it, Kinship's Bond isn't the biggest of maps. Eubans is in the bottom right hand corner and there's a ton of walls near him, not to mention forests.

[dondon151]

It barely kills the scrubbiest units in Crazed Beast, you expect me to believe it's better in CoD? Where the hand axe weighing her down by 6 at level 10 reduces her to 14 AS, enough for the 18 AS Valkyries (apparently the slowest) to double her?

25 HP/4 def is ORKO'd with 17 atk. Isadora also has access to Javelin.

I want you to look closely at Kent's 18/0 stats vs. Isadora's base stats. She loses 6 HP, and that's about it.

[Life]

Can't wait for the shit storm over this one... Jaffar > Vaida.

I'm quoting Mikey from back home here.

...Did you just hand-wave a 10 HP/7 defense lead+ flight and two movement spaces on top of 1-2 range?

Vaida has overkill durability. Yeah, it's nice, but it's really not needed that late in the game where you have abundant healing and lots of durable units. Flier utility is done better by... any other flier who gets used (granted, Florina and Fiora are much more likely than the other two). Her 1-2 range is not all that great, as the enemies she doubles (as you said, generals, wyverns, etc) are not being killed by two shots of 29 ATK with a Javelin, and she's not one-shotting anything.

Assuming he only gains 2 levels in NoF and CoD, Jaffar has an enormous 11 AS lead. He even doubles swordmasters and the like reliably, and only trails in Str at this point by 3. The lead Vaida has on slow AND squishy enemies (pretty rare) is negated by Jaffar's ~25% chance to auto-kill anyone, ever. Over two attacks, with a killing edge, Jaffar has a ~44% chance of one-rounding anything he can't normally, and since one crit will take out most anything even without silencer, a 75% of grabbing one of those. Killer Lance Vaida has only a ~40% chance to crit over her one attack, and the pool of enemies she can't one-round is bigger due to her doubling woes.

This argument falls flat on it's face because "uber slow enemies" is not restricted to unpromoted ones, Vaida can easily double generals and paladins (probably wyvern lords too), all of which are the most common lategame enemies by far. Jaffar's only real response is Heroes and Valks, and some of those he might not even double.

And swordmasters, who Vaida is certainly never one-rounding. And many snipers, and the occasional unencumbered warrior or sage with > 10 AS. And i've personally never seen a Hero with 22 Spd, preventing Jaffar from doubling. He does well, especially with no arrow weakness and 5 more Res when Vaida joins.

And if he doesn't proc that 25% chance to kill? You're screwed then, aren't you?

Not really. His durability is certainly manageable, especially with how dodgy he is. And there's a 69% chance of silencer activating over his two hits on player phase and then two hits when the enemy attacks back. Vaida, on the other hand, has a 0% chance of that ever working, so it's a clear advantage for Jaffar, no matter how reliable or unreliable it is.

Furthermore, I thought the EXP rank was important? You need 2850 EXP to 5-star Light part 1, do you mind explaining to me how soloing the map with or even using a maxed level unit is going to help anything at all?

Well, thankfully, in order to S-rank HHM you don't actually need to 5-star every chapter. Jaffar will contribute more total exp (which is what actually counts) than Vaida due to the boost and two extra chapters in which to use it. Jaffar > Vaida.

this argument is kind of heavily weighed onto enemy stats/numbers which neither of us seem to have, so I'll leave this be for the time being.

Speak for yourself. The following stats are either from Mori in a previous topic here, my personal saves, or here: http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=17006&st=460

Enemies in VoD Vaida can't double:

Limstella (ok, not very significant, since she'd get pwned anyways, and Jaffar would only be slightly better.)

12 AS Silver Bow Snipers

11 AS Killer Lance Wyvern Riders

14 AS Silver Lance Wyvern Lords

12 AS Longsword/Silver Lance Paladins

18 AS Silver Sword Hero

16 AS Silver Axe Hero

22 AS Wo Dao Swordmaster

13 AS Silver Axe/Killer Bow Warriors

13 AS Silver Sword Paladins

14 AS Elfire Valks

15 AS Steel Sword/ Steel Bow Nomad Troops

There's more, but I think that gets the message across.

Enemies Jaffar can't double:

The swordmaster, unless Jaffar is level 18.

Enemies he can double:

Everybody else.

That's a pretty huge lead.

Btw, if Vaida isn't ORKOing/OHKOing stuff with a javelin, Jaffar obviously isn't ORKOing either so I'm baffled as to what this is supposed to prove.

The point is that Vaida's 2-range is not a viable advantage over Jaffar. It very, very rarely ORKO's, and if neither can ORKO, Jaffar has a chance to activate Silencer; Vaida does not. Simple as that.

Here we go again, more Silencer hype without the slightest consideration that it isn't even close to reliable. Due to Vaida's higher ATK, she is MUCH less reliant on crits/silencer than Jaffar is, yet this advantage is being hand-waved because "SILENCER FOR PWN TIER".

There's a big difference between "PWN TIER" and "one spot above an inferior unit." Vaida's higher atk means little when she has such trouble 1-rounding due to doubling woes. Jaffar doubles everything, and has a possibility to Silence them if he can't kill them. Vaida does not.

Ask Lloyd with the Regal Blade what he thinks about Jaffar's avo.

Ok, ask Uhai with the Reinfleche and his ~27 AS what he thinks about Vaida's HP and Def. What's your point?

It's a clear advantage, sure. Not clear enough of one to hand-wave Vaida's masive durability and 4 ATK (or 5 depending on levels) lead because of it, which is exactly what's being done, or at least it's what it looks like you're doing.

Not enough time to counter her "massive" durability lead, but I'll do it later if no one else does. Her 4 extra Atk doesn't mean much when she can't double more than half the enemies in VoD. She never does double Jaffar's damage, so he usually wins offense even without silencer.[/Quote]

Ok, I'm back, time to look at durability:

-/18 Jaffar (less than two levels per chapter)

37 HP, 17 Def, 13 Res, 63 avo

-/10 Vaida (I'll give her a whole level in Sands of Time)

48 HP, 22 Def, 7 Res, 39 avo

Against some VoD enemies:

Silver Sword Paladin has 29 Atk. He 4-shots Jaffar at 37% real hit. He takes a whopping 8 rounds to kill Vaida, but has 79% real hit, meaning on average they survive the same number of rounds.

Silver Sword/Silver Axe Hero have 28/30 Atk, respectively. Sword Hero 4-shots Jaffar at 56% real hit, but doubles Vaida, so he 5-rounds her, but at 72% real hit. Axe Hero 4-shots Jaffar at a paltry 16% real hit, and Vaida barely escapes being doubles but is 6-shot at 94% real hit. Definitely a win for Jaffar there.

Silver Lance Wyvern Lord has 35 Atk. Wow. Jaffar is 2-rounded at 60% real hit. Vaida is 4-shotted at 74% real hit. Vaida's first definitive win, but that's the worst Jaffar ever does.

Elfire Valk has 25 Atk. She 4-shots Jaffar at 43% real hit. She 3-shots Vaida at 82% real hit. Jaffar wins by a mile. The sages are even worse, since while they are slower, they have more Atk.

Silver Bow Sniper has 29 atk, 42 to Vaida. He 4-shots Jaffar at 36% real hit, and 3-shots Vaida at 77% real hit. Another clear one to Jaffar.

So Vaida's "massive" durability lead doesn't mean much when put up against the actual enemies in question. She wins against half the enemies at most, but more realistically, against those enemies with lances, good accuracy, and high Str (Wyvern Lords, Silver Lance General, the one Silver Lance Paladin.) Note that Jaffar also doubles all of the above enemies, while Vaida doubles none.

[Inui]

You tell us something we already know and think that's proving something?

Then why is Priscilla top tier? She doesn't have a monopoly on staves to say "well I can use Warp and stuff for EXP/Tactics!" since Serra exists and Lucius starts off with a high staff level. By the time she promotes, Canas and Erk will have D+ staff levels.

Unfortunately this "shabby logic" is "true logic". No unit except for her actually costs a dime to recruit. There are much better things I could've done with that 30Ks worth of gold. Much.

Funny that your lord and savior also uses this "2x better" logic often.

There's lots of NOTHING you could do with it. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It'll just exist and be wasted.

Hugh has the same type of issues as Farina as far as cost goes, yet he seems to be much higher in the FE6 list. Is that just because there are many more characters that suck horrendously?

Also, I'm confused why there is so much hate for Farina costing money to exist, yet you let him advertise promoting two Assassins for 32x without even raising so much as a brief objection. That would cost way more than Farina does. Also, I don't buy inflating her cost to 40k as being a particularly reasonable argument either. As far as ranking goes, she only deprives you of 20k, the same as using a Heaven or Earth Seal would do.

I think I'll just stop here, because as a self-admitted Farina fanboy, I often find it hard where to draw the line. She's clearly not a good choice for a team, but I don't feel she's as terrible as she's being portrayed.

I agree, but let me explain the Assassin thing.

Experience is really, really, really hard. Allocating some cash to freely add ~5,000 EXP to the hardest rank? That's extremely worth it. You also HAVE the Funds anyways, so you might as well do it. Silver Card = h4x.

What are you going to do with that money instead? You have it in excess to begin with. Are you going to gain 6 stars in funds? Oh, wait... :(

And I don't obsess over anyone the way Inui does, so lol. If you're referring to WJC's arguments about Hardin and those two other Cavaliers, that's not even the same thing.

Btw, you just don't understand me and Inui's logic so we're automatically right no matter what you say. Hm, I could get used to this attitude, it makes for easy victories.

lol qft

1. Do justify those supports when they all have better options (Florina has Lyn and Fiora, Fiora has Florina and Kent...Hey, a square!)

Sure thing.

First of all, Lyn kinda blows and has 5 Mov vs 7 Mov/flying and then 5 Mov vs 8 Mov/flying for a while. Lyn also gives 0 Evd and only partial Def/Res. Fiora also gives 0 Evd and partial Def/Res. Fiora x Florina will probably not be a B when Farina joins anyways, leaving room for a C, and if you're fielding Farina, there's no reason to neglect her and never give her a support. Florina automatically adds 1 Atk, 2 Evd, and 1 Def/Res, which is a nice boost.

Fiora x Kent will not be a B when Farina shows up, and Farina's C with Fiora, like with Florina, will happen almost instantly due to huge support base + good growth. Farina offers the same bonuses but has better mobility. Who does Fiora want now? Probably Farina.

2. With that in mind, thanks for showing us she's not that much better than Karel despite costing basically 60k to Karel's...Whatever it costs to equip him.

Yes, she is. She is 7 levels lower and already beating him anywhere that isn't Spd. She's got much better growths and more levels to gain, meaning Farina only makes that gap wider and wider. Farina provides support bonuses, Karel doesn't. Farina is mobile and can actually do things in BBD, he can't. Farina doesn't cost 60k wtf. She costs 20k in liquid Funds that can potentially turn into 40k and then a 10k item. That's a max of 50k with the Silver Card, and it's just shrugged off.

What did Karel cost you by existing? Harken + Brave Sword.

3. Her con slows her down, as for example her equipping Silver weighs her down to 12 AS. Karel on the other hand is only weighed down by Steel, and it's just by 1.

14 Spd Merc with Steel Sword = 13 AS = doubled by Farina's Slim Lance = DEAD ENEMY since Farina has decent Str and WTA. Swordreaver Fighters have super bottom tier AS and die to her Iron Lance. Enemies in this game are soooooo slow that it's like a joke to bring up AS arguments unless Karel is doubling something that she isn't, and I got nothing there.

4. 8 levels in 2 chapters? Do suck my balls, capitan. She's lucky we're even waiting around to recruit her, much less seeing a lot of action in her joining chapter. It's probably more like this.

16/0 Farina-27 HP, 12 Str, 14.6 Skill, 15.35 Speed, 11.8 Luck, 11 Def, 13.2 Res, 5 Con

Hey guess what? In my comparison, she was recruited with the intent of actually using her, not with the intent of 100% neglecting her so we can make her look worse than she truly is in a debate. I stated that I got done playing Crazed Beast and she gained 4 levels in 2 turns right after getting her the turn she showed up. It delayed completion of the chapter by about one turn. That other guy had a similar experience. You have her at her base level from Chapter 26 in this when Karel joins halfway in Chapter 27. Farina = good for Experience rank + gains a lot of EXP when she does stuff, so her promoting from pecking off a few enemies in Chapter 26 (very easy since she can go anywhere and kill Brigands with an Axereaver) and then fighting a bit in Chapter 27 is very reasonable.

Your comparison, however, is not. It's just making her look worse than she actually is.

5. I count 3 whips. Florina and Fiora are obviously getting it if used. However, what about Heath? He's got 3 chapters before Farina, and is also in those 2 chapters Farina has. What's to say he won't be the same level as Farina?

16/0 Heath-39.2 HP, 17.5 Str, 14.5 Skill, 13.05 Speed, 8.8 Luck, 13.7 Def, 3.6 Res, 9 Con

Let's also remember that her con makes it so iron lances weigh her down by 3. She is tecnically slower.

Her only win seems to be 3 luck, 1 avoid and 10 Res. Heath roflstomps everywhere else, and didn't cost 40k to recruit. He could be even a couple levels lower, he'd still be bitchslapping her statistically.

Heath is better. Correct. Why does that matter? We're using every single flier in the game all the time or something? Heath is higher on the tier list. If one intends to use Farina to analyze her performance, one would assume the team would be adjusted as such, meaning the Pegs are fielded over Heath for support and triangle attack purposes.

6. Let's add up Karel's crit. 26 crit at base, 31 with a reaver, 56 with a killer, 61 with a Wo Dao. Witht he proper weapon, I could have more than a coin flip's chance of having Karel ignore a counter. She needs a killer just to contend in critical with his reaver. Countering range would be a good counter, if it didn't weigh her down by 5 (6 before promotion). 2 move and flight is nice, but I have 3 others to do my flying utility for me, and it does bring a perk fliers have to mind that Karel doesn't-bow weakness. Even with your 20/1 Farina, a steel bow archer does 1/3 her HP, that being back in her joining chapter.

Thank God those things are dead or she has no reason to ever enter their range since she's killing horrible Monks and a weighed down crappy Bishop instead. She has no reason to ever go near any of that stuff. In BBD, she goes down the right, and there are like...two Archer max, and one has an lolLongbow IIRC, and then she gets to kill Mercs/Fighters with a Slim Lance and protect Nino/get to Zephiel/bait Ursula's Bolting with her h4x Res and good Evd.

Karel? He's left in the dust.

7. He has a way to make up for his offensive "loss" in the form of blades. The heaviest weighs him down to 15 at base, and it gives him 30 might (something your Farina there needs a full blown silver lance to match). 15 AS is still good enough (if 14 can take you all the way to endgame...), the offense comes with a base of 26 crit to boot.

Karel's offense being passable has never come into question. His offense being worse than the rest of your team's and his durability being mediocre? That is the problem. Farina is matching him in Str at 7 levels lower with a 20% growth advantage. It is clear that things only get much worse for Karel as the game goes on.

8. What if Florina and Fiora aren't in play? I know Karel isn't crying over having no friends.

Again, as I stated, if we're intending to use Farina to actually analyze how she performs, not fielding her support partners is absolutely ridiculous. It is blatant neglect of the unit and blatantly inefficient and illogical.

9. Did you know 1 Elysian Whip can buy me 3 killer edges?

Did you know Funds doesn't really matter?

That's partially true. The FE6 list also does not acknowledge ranks. There is no funds rank to satisfy and Hugh is comparatively less expensive than Farina to recruit, plus he gets to have staff/Aircalibur utility from promotion whereas Farina has flying in a game where flying is comparatively less useful (though IMO it does save her from bottom tier).

Farina costs 20k G, non Silver Carded, which is 40k G equivalent. I don't advocate promoting 2 Assassins for 32x either, because that's just simply not reasonable.

I pull up my final chapter save, which currently has 5 stars in funds with 9 promoted units (Priscilla, Raven, Serra, Kent, Sain, Heath, Fiora, Lucius, Erk) plus promoted Eliwood (Lyn is unpromoted). Farina is also unrecruited. If I spend 40k G worth of items (i.e. I use a Heaven Seal plus an Earth Seal), my funds rank drops to 4 stars. If Farina costs 50k G to use (40k to recruit and 10k to promote), she prevents the promotion of 1 unit on this team. If Lyn is promoted, that's 3 units on this team that Farina competes with. The only stat boosting item that I've used on this playthrough are the Boots (on Hector), and the only gem that I've sold is the one obtained in chapter 11. The S-rank weapons obtained in Endgame have a total worth of 150k G, which is coincidentally exactly the amount required for that chapter, so a 20% leeway on that is only 30k G. Farina evidently does put a strain on your funds - she prevents the promotion of other units, she prevents you from selling gems early on for extra money, and she prevents you from being liberal with stat boosters (so no Body Ring for Isadora, Speedwings for Marcus, for example). This also invalidates the "use 100k G on your assassins" strategy for 32x, plus is competes with Dart's use after promotion, since his item costs 50k G. It also competes with, for example, Oswin's and Lowen's promotions, since there are only 2 Knight Crests, so either of them needs an Earth Seal to promote.

Plus, as GJ just brought up, you have 3 Elysian Whips for 3 fliers that are all better than Farina. If she has to use an Earth Seal, that's 10k G more on her tab. And he brings up other issues, too: Farina has terrible AS from any weapon that's useful (she can't double 8 AS monks in chapter 25 from 2-range, which Inui conveniently ignored, among many other problems for that chapter). She has terrible durability plus terrible offense that severely hinders her ability to gain EXP.

I'm ignoring the Funds stuff, since it's addressed in the following post I quoted.

She doesn't need to double those Monks to kill them at get EXP. I parked her there for two turns while attacking the Bishop and she gained 4 levels even with only doubling half of them, lol. Her durability was 100% infinite because I used a Pure Water on her.

OK, funds analysis; a work in progress.

Simple Version

The requirement given by SF's ranking page says ~847,000g is needed for 5*. It also says this ~847,000g is the requirement since it is 80% of the combined total for all chapters, which I've added up to around 1,053,000g total (or 1,058,750g, if you just do 847000/.8), with slight variance based on 24/27's differing paths. I'm going to assume that the listed requirement for each chapter equals the total assets and gold gained in the chapter, though this is not entirely accurate and will be addressed later. It is fairly close for now.

This leaves 1,053,000 - 847,000 = 206,000g to work with and still stay above the 5* requirement. Assuming a team of 10, each unit then has a personal budget of 20,600g to work with. Of course, you aren't going to be spreading your spendings on your team equally, as there are things like using prepromotes which add flexibility to your spending.

However, this doesn't account the aforementioned difference between listed requirements and actual assets/gold gained per chapter or things like what the silver card does, arena winnings, and whatever else I can't think of right now. So...

Not Simple Version

Coming Soon.

I believe Reikken/whomever did a similar thing to this. It turns out there's an allowance of around 20k per unit on an average team, and prepromoted units bump that up, and then the Silver Card adds literally thousands and thousands by doubling your cash, which is downright crazy. Matthew is top tier for negating the Funds rank, right? When you take your data and then account for Silver Card usage, arena winnings, 0 requirement chapters...there's a ton of cash to go around, meaning what Farina costs is just fine and you can do the awesome Assassin thing.

Thankfully, most units you use are pretty good and you rarely need to use good weapons. I find myself sticking to Iron Everything for almost the entire game and still raping things.

To counter some of Inui's claims.

Eliwood still shafts Lyn if he promotes sooner. Stop claiming "but she sux lulz", the fact is he stops her from promoting and gaining a very nice boost to durability.

20/0 Eliwood, A Hector/B Lowen

33 HP, 16 ATK, 14 AS, 14 DEF, 6 RES, 68 AVO

20/0 Lyn, A Florina/B Kent

29 HP, 16 ATK, 20 AS, 8 DEF, 8 RES, 60 AVO

Lyn's got better offense, Eliwood's got better durability.

Promote them, and Eliwood's offense only increases by +1 ATK and Lances. Lyn however gets 4 HP, 3 DEF and 5 RES, bringing her DEF up to 11 (compared to promo eliwood's 15). She benefits more from promoting than he does, so he's shafting her and your team even MORE than she is shafting him.

The fact that she is even better offensively than Eliwood, is force deployed in several late-game chapters, and has required usage to get Linus FFO mean you are wrong about Lyn and you fail.

Until Eliwood's position reflects that promoting him first shafts Lyn, I see no reason why it should reflect in her position.

ROFLMAO

You think Lyn being faster makes her have more offense? If Eliwood promotes first, he gets +1 Spd, +2 Con, a horse, and Lances. He's automatically ready to charge into BBD and be fucking awesome with Marcus and Lowen. Lyn? She's left in the dust there. She'll still have mediocre durability.

Please cite how Lyn being faster but losing everything else makes her have better offense. What enemies is Lyn doubling that Eliwood isn't shitting on as well? If you can't show that, then Eliwood clearly destroys her.

Lyn shafting Eliwood matters since Eliwood is awesome and it makes BBD harder and Lyn is meh.

Man, fuck Lyn. I don't wanna deal with her atm. I'll let Solid or CATS do it if they care. I'd rather fix other stuff first.

The same goes for Serra (or whoever gets the first ring) for shafting all the other magic users, Guy (or whoever gets the first hero crest) for shafting anyone who needs a hero crest, Florina (or whoever gets the first whip) for shafting all the others, etc. Hopefully you get the point.

Serra's at the highest level, along with Erk. There's no 20/0 ramming going. Serra takes the first one during Chapter 19 and promotes at 20/0, then Erk promotes at 20/0, pretty much immediately after hitting it, during Chapter 20. Canas, Lucius, and Priscilla are waaaaay behind that, especially Priscilla, so they can wait until Chapters 23 and 24 without 20/0 ramming. Eliwood and Lyn, however, are ramming 20/0 hardcore. Lyn not letting Eliwood become a viable combat unit again for both him and his supporters and making BBD harder is a point against her. Good units shafting worse units is much more acceptable than the other way around.

Guy has a pretty substantial level lead on Raven, so it's similar to the Guiding Ring point. Florina's not shafting other fliers since she's probably double Fiora's level when she joins and then you get more stuff by the time Fiora/Heath/Farina are ready to promote.

Also, CATS's argument about Bartre ignores supports for Bartre, ignores how awful he is in his first few chapters, and ignores the fact that both Bartre and Dorcas are unlikely to see any use beyond 20/0 in the first place since they are pretty bad compared to anyone else on your team.

Bartre's earlygame performance is right on par with everyone else's. He has less Evd than Eliwood and Lowen since they have WTA, but he counters that by having 10 more HP than them. Bartre has much more Atk. Bartre has plenty of lancers to eat up in the form of Pegs, Knights, and loldiers, and he's better against them than Lowen and Eliwood. How is Bartre awful?

29 HP/4 def vs 18 HP/5 Def and 23 HP/7 Def. Bartre's fine. Unlike Dorcas, he's awesome for the Experience rank. There's a small chance of some Brigand existing that can double him that you guys like to hype up, but that's silly. It's also very easy to just avoid swords with him.

Dorcas and Bartre make suitable full-time units. If we're looking at how they perform, we should, you know, actually use them instead of sandbagging them to hell so they can look worse than they actually are on the internet. I can post stuff from a debate here.

In Chapter 20, Dorcas has 30 Atk with a Steel Axe. This will one-shot every magic user. He has 26 with a Hand Axe...which may kill them in one hit. I don't remember exactly, but something like 23 HP and 3 Def would make sense for enemy Mages. Either way, he kills in one hit with a Steel Axe.

Pegasus Knights die in one hit to basically anything Dorcas uses, especially bows.

Dorcas has 39 Atk vs mounted units with the Halberd, meaning those Nomads are dead instantly and the Cavaliers are even deader since Dorcas has WTA. That 30 HP/9 Def Cavalier I referenced earlier? Easily dies.

Dorcas has 39 Atk vs Knights. Thank God they have horrible HP for some reason. Knights are like...the worst enemy type in every FE game for some reason. Dorcas destroys these crappy units just like anyone else.

How is that a bad unit? Keep in mind he's got okay Def and huge HP. I also did that comparison assuming only C Oswin for his supports and Bartre not being in play at all.

If Bartre is used without Dorcas, Bartre still has Canas for supports, and he's got a monopoly on that dude.

There is no tier gap between Bartre and Dorcas. Dorcas wins early, they tie around the midgame, then Bartre overtakes him, and Bartre's always better for the Experience rank.

That's just so wrong. Eliwood gaining lances = gaining 1-2 range and neutral WT against the majority of enemies, and he gains 4 HP, 2 Str, 1 Spd, 1 Def, 3 Res, 2 Mov and 2 Con. That is so much better than Lyn's promotion it isn't even funny.

Indeed.

Because Isadora is around for longer, has a mount, has range, and is performing similarly to top/high tier units when she joins. How is that not at least a tier difference? You're just brushing off all of those advantages as if it were dandruff on your shoulder without thinking about their implications.

YES. THANK YOU. The best debater at SF by far (I'm not the only d00d that thinks that, dondon) sees my point and didn't totally ignore it like everyone else!

[grandjackal]

25 HP/4 def is ORKO'd with 17 atk. Isadora also has access to Javelin.

I want you to look closely at Kent's 18/0 stats vs. Isadora's base stats. She loses 6 HP, and that's about it.

I'm guessing these 25 HP and 4 Def enemies are mages. What is their resistance?

As for Kent, 7 chapters before Isadora shows up, I spot a 20+3 with Lyn and a 30+3 with Sain. If we're going 7 turns average, he could at least have B with Sain, or be close to it, still most likely a C with Lyn. +3 ATK, 1 Def, 7 hit, 7 avoid, 7 crit, 15 Crit Evade.

I don't see where Isadora wins outside of no promotion item when you compare it that way. I only see a 2 Might and 2 Con loss (faster with an iron sword, whoopie, he's faster with everything else). It's great she shows up to be part, but hey. Guy needs to promote just to generally tie Karel unless you count on Matthew still hanging around.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Inui]

What dondon and I are trying to say is that Isadora has a chapter, no, more than that...a brief period of time that spans over several chapters, including Genesis, where she is either outperforming or on par with top/high tiers. That much is obvious when you look at her stats and class. Bad Con? Meh, the enemies are much slower anyways, so it doesn't mean much, and her Spd stat is rly good. Karel and Jaffar? They have nothing like that. They join and are worse than almost everyone you have (EVEN FARINA, GUYS!) and don't contribute much of anything.

Isadora being good for a few chapters and then having hope due to supports >>> Karel and Jaffar being mediocre forever.

[Colonel M]

There's lots of NOTHING you could do with it. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. It'll just exist and be wasted.

I'd put dondon's post as "qft", but *shrugs*.

14 Spd Merc with Steel Sword = 13 AS = doubled by Farina's Slim Lance = DEAD ENEMY since Farina has decent Str and WTA. Swordreaver Fighters have super bottom tier AS and die to her Iron Lance. Enemies in this game are soooooo slow that it's like a joke to bring up AS arguments unless Karel is doubling something that she isn't, and I got nothing there.

She needs to be almost Level 18. You can't be serious on her gaining 4 Levels in one chapter, consider that we likely have other flying units (hello? Heath? Florina? Fiora?). Farina is not entitled to every kill on this map.

I agree, but let me explain the Assassin thing.

Experience is really, really, really hard. Allocating some cash to freely add ~5,000 EXP to the hardest rank? That's extremely worth it. You also HAVE the Funds anyways, so you might as well do it. Silver Card = h4x.

So you're telling me we can freely spend 50K, or 100K on two Assassins? Fuck that, Dart can go up now. </sarcasm>

First of all, Lyn kinda blows and has 5 Mov vs 7 Mov/flying and then 5 Mov vs 8 Mov/flying for a while. Lyn also gives 0 Evd and only partial Def/Res. Fiora also gives 0 Evd and partial Def/Res. Fiora x Florina will probably not be a B when Farina joins anyways, leaving room for a C, and if you're fielding Farina, there's no reason to neglect her and never give her a support. Florina automatically adds 1 Atk, 2 Evd, and 1 Def/Res, which is a nice boost.

On the contrary, she has two mobile units that can carry her now. Sain was tagging along with Kent anyway. It can be a square of happiness.

I'm ignoring the Funds stuff, since it's addressed in the following post I quoted.

She doesn't need to double those Monks to kill them at get EXP. I parked her there for two turns while attacking the Bishop and she gained 4 levels even with only doubling half of them, lol. Her durability was 100% infinite because I used a Pure Water on her.

This is a 0 Turn Chapter. We don't have that much time to dawdle recruiting her. Hector can move around and seize one of the gates so that we can use a good unit on the field. Farina likely isn't coming until Turn 6-8, pending on which gate you have Hector at (Pascal or the Warrior one).

Also, you didn't explain it. GJ just showed what you can do with the Whip. I can buy 6 Killing Edges freely by not recruiting Farina. Hell, I can load them up on Karel and Jaffar and make them good. Prepromoted units can get credit for saving us cash. Farina is just dumping it down the toiled just for some mediocre unit.

I believe Reikken/whomever did a similar thing to this. It turns out there's an allowance of around 20k per unit on an average team, and prepromoted units bump that up, and then the Silver Card adds literally thousands and thousands by doubling your cash, which is downright crazy. Matthew is top tier for negating the Funds rank, right? When you take your data and then account for Silver Card usage, arena winnings, 0 requirement chapters...there's a ton of cash to go around, meaning what Farina costs is just fine and you can do the awesome Assassin thing.

Thankfully, most units you use are pretty good and you rarely need to use good weapons. I find myself sticking to Iron Everything for almost the entire game and still raping things.

Now that I think about it... now Farina would cost us 150K. I'm starting to hate this idea more and more.

Thankfully, most units you use are pretty good and you rarely need to use good weapons. I find myself sticking to Iron Everything for almost the entire game and still raping things.

Farina definitely needs more than an Iron Weapon.

And when you use Steel, your accuracy drops a bit. Not to mention your AS values can get rather atrocious. Using Killer weapons give units +30% chance to kill something that sits in front of them. Considering the Combat Rank, why would you not ever consider this? There's more than just the unpromoted scrubs, and units can actually fail at ORKOing things such as Wyvern Knights. They have 30-33 HP | 11-12 Def. Guy with a Steel Sword at 20/1 has 23 Attack before supports. That's stupid.

Then factor other weapons such as the Reavers for the units that can't gain WTC. All those mono-Sword users want Lancereaver. Geitz with Dorcas and / or / neither Bartre want them too. Instead of Axes, Isadora doesn't really mind a Lancereaver (Axes are just too heavy IMO).

I can't just look at Farina's cost to even be recruited and just hand wave it. There's an opportunity cost to recruiting her. Promoted units may be helping our funds rank by saving us cash, but Farina is effectively denting a hole in it. Do you not understand the problem with this?

Please cite how Lyn being faster but losing everything else makes her have better offense. What enemies is Lyn doubling that Eliwood isn't shitting on as well? If you can't show that, then Eliwood clearly destroys her.

20/1 Eliwood has 16 Spd while 20/1 Lyn has 20 Spd. With a Steel Lance, Eliwood has 12 AS. With the Javelin it's 14. Lyn has 19 AS with the Killing Edge. Now I can tell you right now that Eliwood can fail to double the Mercenaries without resorting to Iron, which is fine, but it barely matters in the next chapter. She has WTA against the Pirates, so that barely matters too. So yeah, nothing different.

She can, however, double some of the promoted enemies a bit better but that's about it. I think most people would consider promoting Eliwood before Lyn anyhow, so the point is just about moot.

---

I already agree on the whole no tier difference between Bartre and Dorcas.

YES. THANK YOU. The best debater at SF by far (I'm not the only d00d that thinks that, dondon) sees my point and didn't totally ignore it like everyone else!

Yes, you're so much better.

*Bows*.

They join and are worse than almost everyone you have (EVEN FARINA, GUYS!) and don't contribute much of anything.

You know, to backstab you on your assassin strategy, Jaffar can pull this off pretty well.

I also took a quick look at this, and I don't know many Thieves that can seriously "solo" the pits. To give you an idea they have about 104 Hit with the Tomahawk and Killer Axe. Each time that a 20/1 Matthew faces an attack (btw he has 51 Avoid, 76 with WTA) he has a 48% displayed against him. Now you're suggesting that we have him sit in this pit and risk a little under 50% chance of getting hit? That's absurd. Even if you took something like a 20/10 Matthew there's still 21% displayed. Not to mention that each time you see combat that you have a greater chance of getting hit, and judging Berserkers and Matt's durability I doubt he can take more than two hits. Mekkah and dondon also inform me there are some Swordreaver (or Slayer, can't recall) Berserkers in there. In short: I doubt this strategy.

---

Now that I'm done atm with arguing against questionable logic, looking at Jaffar vs. Vaida.

Well first off we missed that Vaida has 14 Spd at base, so unless she gets hampered by wielding something, my mistake. This just adds Limstella on her "to double" list. This still gets her doubled in other places such as the Heroes and Valkyries. Still, she does have a major mobility advantage, then consider that VoD is a terrain-heavy chapter (it's clear but there is some terrain besides the Peaks). Still, Jaffar practically wins in the Final Chapters and has had that short time of being there in Night of Farewells and CoD, the latter being a very difficult chapter. I'd even think he'd come close to winning in Chapter 31 because all he really needs is a Lancereaver (or Armorslayer if it's available) against the AKs, though personally I'd pick up the Lancereaver first since it gives effectively +30 Avoid. Also pretty Archer-heavy, though granted her 22 Def nearly cancels out the threat of a Bow (Steel Bow has 16 Mt, so they'd have to have quite a bit of Atk to even dent her). Silver Bow Snipers (dunno if they wield it) can probably be a major threat though. Seems close, but I think Jaffar can edge a win here, but just barely. Might have to let others know their thoughts.

As for Isadora, while I don't think your Upper / High / Top comparison "aiming big" method is the greatest way to go, I do think it's marginally possible to accept her a tier up. But, keep in mind, the second Body Ring doesn't come until very late in the game and the spellcasters also love that item (especially Canas and Nosferatu). She does rape the EXP factor a bit which questions her level gain (want to try to hype 16 combat phases for a level up and still be mediocre? lol). Lucius may have durability problems, but the problem with Isadora's goes all the way back to her class. Sain, Kent, Lowen, hell even Marcus can take a short beating. If you don't do rotating, they're effectively gaining leads in durability against her and don't lose in offense if at all (she just has the Killer Axe advantage against those but Marcus). Lucius, on the other hand, doesn't necessarily need to see combat all the time. Him being a staff wielder means that his main role is healing with a little combat on the side. She has the short time where she beats your Cavalier trio, but once they promote she might as well go "poof". She can still be used, obviously, but she just doesn't have many perks above them anymore.

I could buy it (Jaffar > Vaida), but I do think that Vaida's VoD win is pretty substantial to think about. For now I will put Isadora to bottom of the next tier and the others can decide from there. Keep in mind, folks, that she's saving only 6000 Gold, not 10000 if we consider the Body Ring on her. Also consider that she isn't healthy for a Rank that isn't easy to S Rank either (32X strategy =/= completely ignoring the disadvantage).

EDIT: Guess Bartre and Dorcas have two tier difference. Uh... well I'll wait and see if they'll meet halfway, keep a tier difference, or Bartre straight up. I think Geitz > Dorcas personally, but I don't have everything to back it up.

Edited February 17, 2010 by Colonel M