FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Life]

So I'm playing right now in HHM and have a level 14.19 Oswin in Chapter 16 and a level 3.86 Marcus and I have 5 stars in Experience. Oswin is definitely crushing Kent, Sain, and Lowen in levels if you use him. Lol @ Experience rank.

I'm skipping the Prissy stuff because I don't like arguing healers. And I'm not good at it.

But for this, I think you're missing the problem. You're on the 7th chapter of the game but you've only had 5 that have Exp requirements. Both 11 and 15 are 0 chapters. All you need after 16 is 36.8 levels in 7 chapters. That's nothing as that's going to happen almost all of the time.

But in the end of the game, Exp gets ridiculous. Cog of Destiny alone requires 36.5 levels (3650 Exp) just to individually 5* that chapter in experience. That's worth the first 7 chapters of the game. I really don't understand how you can say "Lol @ Experience rank" at this point in time.

[Inui]

I'm skipping the Prissy stuff because I don't like arguing healers. And I'm not good at it.

Healers are very tricky. They are really gay to debate against and I beat CATS in Priscilla vs Kent and lost to Reikken in Kent vs Serra, so the healer came out on top both times against an extremely good Paladin (best class) with few to no negatives.

But I know how to fight them better now. So do others. They have flaws, especially Priscilla. The "Priscilla is definitely top tier" mentality needs to go away. I've provided enough proof to cast doubt, just like with Funds.

But for this, I think you're missing the problem. You're on the 7th chapter of the game but you've only had 5 that have Exp requirements. Both 11 and 15 are 0 chapters. All you need after 16 is 36.8 levels in 7 chapters. That's nothing as that's going to happen almost all of the time.

But in the end of the game, Exp gets ridiculous. Cog of Destiny alone requires 36.5 levels (3650 Exp) just to individually 5* that chapter in experience. That's worth the first 7 chapters of the game. I really don't understand how you can say "Lol @ Experience rank" at this point in time.

Well, I'm abusing Marcus and Oswin quite significantly and still have 5 stars. I'd expect to be lower than that given how much I'm using them. 3,650 EXP? You'll gain at least half of that in CoD, and you spam staves there, and then...32x gives you more than that...and me abusing Marcus early on makes it more possible.

I love Marcus. His level ups in order have been HP Str Skl Spd, HP Skl Lck Res, HP Skl Spd Lck. :)

Edited February 18, 2010 by Inui

[-Cynthia-]

You know, I really don't understand the comparisons that give Priscilla equal levels to Serra/Lucius/Erk when Lyn Mode is assumed. That will give them a level lead right off the bat, Serra has more chapters to heal and Lucius/Erk gain way more CEXP as well.

I guess the real issue though is the value of healing at this point in the game, which admittedly is pretty high. However, if it's so high why not Serra> Raven? Raven is cool and all, but he's a fairly mediocre combat unit at jointime (only can reliably double with Iron, questionable durability). He's great post promotion, but with Serra's leads pre-promotion and before Raven joins, I'm not sure I see it.

Overview of Ranks:

Tactics: Serra probably saves us more turns earlygame than Raven can with his lategame leads.

Survival: Clearly Serra, stopping people from dying and all.

Funds: Matthew solves this anyway

Combat: Raven wins here

EXP: Raven's not bad for Exp, but Serra wins because she uses her own pool rather than sharing with the other fighters.

Edited February 18, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Funds Analysis maybe still coming, but I'd like to address the silver card issue now. The ~20K calculated is mostly all in terms of assets, which means the Silver Card can only convert that at a 1:1 ratio. It doesn't increase the amount of money you have, only the purchasing power, which is weakened by loss from selling liquids. 20K is a more accurate estimate than it seems without getting into deeper factors.

Farina costs 20k G, non Silver Carded, which is 40k G equivalent. I don't advocate promoting 2 Assassins for 32x either, because that's just simply not reasonable.

I pull up my final chapter save, which currently has 5 stars in funds with 9 promoted units (Priscilla, Raven, Serra, Kent, Sain, Heath, Fiora, Lucius, Erk) plus promoted Eliwood (Lyn is unpromoted). Farina is also unrecruited. If I spend 40k G worth of items (i.e. I use a Heaven Seal plus an Earth Seal), my funds rank drops to 4 stars. If Farina costs 50k G to use (40k to recruit and 10k to promote), she prevents the promotion of 1 unit on this team. If Lyn is promoted, that's 3 units on this team that Farina competes with. The only stat boosting item that I've used on this playthrough are the Boots (on Hector), and the only gem that I've sold is the one obtained in chapter 11. The S-rank weapons obtained in Endgame have a total worth of 150k G, which is coincidentally exactly the amount required for that chapter, so a 20% leeway on that is only 30k G. Farina evidently does put a strain on your funds - she prevents the promotion of other units, she prevents you from selling gems early on for extra money, and she prevents you from being liberal with stat boosters (so no Body Ring for Isadora, Speedwings for Marcus, for example). This also invalidates the "use 100k G on your assassins" strategy for 32x, plus is competes with Dart's use after promotion, since his item costs 50k G. It also competes with, for example, Oswin's and Lowen's promotions, since there are only 2 Knight Crests, so either of them needs an Earth Seal to promote.

Dondon, I know you could probably S-Rank HHM in your sleep, but how does personal experience invalidate statements based on the game's requirements? Are you confident you gained all the funds possible without sacrificing other ranks and spent your money the best way possible? Farina already costs 20000g to recruit, which means she's already close to going over anyway.

Edited February 19, 2010 by WeaponsofMassConstruction

[Inui]

You know, I really don't understand the comparisons that give Priscilla equal levels to Serra/Lucius/Erk when Lyn Mode is assumed. That will give them a level lead right off the bat, Serra has more chapters to heal and Lucius/Erk gain way more CEXP as well.

I guess the real issue though is the value of healing at this point in the game, which admittedly is pretty high. However, if it's so high why not Serra> Raven? Raven is cool and all, but he's a fairly mediocre combat unit at jointime (only can reliably double with Iron, questionable durability). He's great post promotion, but with Serra's leads pre-promotion and before Raven joins, I'm not sure I see it.

Overview of Ranks:

Tactics: Serra probably saves us more turns earlygame than Raven can with his lategame leads.

Survival: Clearly Serra, stopping people from dying and all.

Funds: Matthew solves this anyway

Combat: Raven wins here

EXP: Raven's not bad for Exp, but Serra wins because she uses her own pool rather than sharing with the other fighters.

I think Serra is the best character in the game.

Does Raven really win Combat by enough to matter? 20/2 Serra in the Dragons Gate one-rounds every enemy on the map with Lightning except Darin and Cameron, two units that are strong bosses Raven won't one-round either. She's one-rounding unpromoted stuff forever and is actually good at fighting.

[dondon151]

20/2 Serra in the Dragons Gate

You know, there's a reason why people don't take you seriously, and this quote is a great example.

I didn't get 20/2 Serra until chapter 28x (I didn't do LHM). Even if Serra got to 8/0 in LHM (7 extra levels), I had a 14/0 Serra in chapter 25, so however you swing it, your levels are extremely unreasonable.

Edited February 19, 2010 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

You know, there's a reason why people don't take you seriously, and this quote is a great example.

I didn't get 20/2 Serra until chapter 28x (I didn't do LHM). Even if Serra got to 8/0 in LHM (7 extra levels), I had a 14/0 Serra in chapter 25, so however you swing it, your levels are extremely unreasonable.

To confirm this, Balcerzak had a 16 Serra by the end of Dragon's Gate and he did LHM.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Life]

EDIT: Colonel said exactly what I did.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Inui]

You know, there's a reason why people don't take you seriously, and this quote is a great example.

I didn't get 20/2 Serra until chapter 28x (I didn't do LHM). Even if Serra got to 8/0 in LHM (7 extra levels), I had a 14/0 Serra in chapter 25, so however you swing it, your levels are extremely unreasonable.

Oh, okay then.

Someone needs to learn to staff abuse more. Also, Reikken and CATS both tested Serra stuff in LHM and got her to level 10-11 while meeting the Tactics requirements and they explained it pretty well with Nils stuff and how using Nils on other units never really made them progress more quickly at all. It's feasible and within the Tactics requirements to get Serra to level 10-11.

Serra has chapters 12, 13, 13x, 14, 15, 16, 17, 17x, 18, 19, and 19x to gain levels after leaving LHM. She needs 1 level per chapter on average to hit that, and she needs to use Heal 9 times to level up. In 19, you can use Torch 5 times for 75 HP and give Priscilla the other half of it. One use of the Sleep staff in 17x is 35 EXP. I don't see why she can't be 20/1 or 20/2 in the Dragons Gate.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Inui

[-Cynthia-]

Even if we don't give her that many levels, 18/1 Serra only loses 1 Mag, 16/1 only 2 Mag (14/15 AS doubles just about everything) so she'll still be ORKOing a lot (more than like 11/0 Raven or w/e), plus she has staves.

Edited February 19, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Inui]

Indeed. Good point. She overkills most of the stuff on that map at 20/1 anyways.

Serra for best unit even though I don't like her at all. :(

[Junkhead]

Staff abuse is viable on an efficient ranked run? IIRC trying to get to 19xx ruins something...I think it was funds but I could be wrong, I remember either Balzerack or Dondon mentioning that.

[grandjackal]

Staff abuse is viable on an efficient ranked run? IIRC trying to get to 19xx ruins something...I think it was funds but I could be wrong, I remember either Balzerack or Dondon mentioning that.

Tactics, I believe it was, as it's a 0 turn requirement map.

But even if ranks helps Serra far more than in a pure efficiency run, best unit? First, I'll need a bit more than "Raven is meh at his start" (especially since if that's the case, axe-heavy Port of Badon clears that right up), and then you have Matthew to contend with, who when it comes to the ranks is pretty much unthronable due to the funds rank and the silver card.

[Inui]

Staff abuse is viable on an efficient ranked run? IIRC trying to get to 19xx ruins something...I think it was funds but I could be wrong, I remember either Balzerack or Dondon mentioning that.

Don't need to waste turns to staff abuse. Just use Sleep once and Torch 5 times over Heal or something before Chapter 20 and Serra should promote at 20/1.

But even if ranks helps Serra far more than in a pure efficiency run, best unit? First, I'll need a bit more than "Raven is meh at his start" (especially since if that's the case, axe-heavy Port of Badon clears that right up), and then you have Matthew to contend with, who when it comes to the ranks is pretty much unthronable due to the funds rank and the silver card.

Serra has a really, really big level lead on Raven and gets the first Guiding Ring every time if you're smart. Raven? Loses really hard to Guy in level and Guy starts to ram Spd and benefits a lot from promoting, even an early promotion.

About Matthew, read this exchange:

Explain to me the difference between Matthew stealing something and Priscilla recruiting someone.

That's simple. Matthew's action is a command of his class that he gets EXP for and it's part of his performance as a unit. A character-specific, storyline event doesn't make some unit better. This is like saying Hector is the best for seizing or something else ridiculous. Priscilla getting all of the credit for Raven's performance and her own is just crazy. This would mean so much ridiculous shit on the tier list. Dart > Geitz, Nino > Jaffar, Priscilla > Raven, etc. That's just really dumb since it's clear those things are not true at all.

I understand your qualms with the Matthew shit, but the Silver Card is stolen through an action in the game that's part of Matthew's class in gets him EXP. It's not a storyline event or specific to him as a character rather than a unit in an army.

This argument is so easy to shut down I am surprised you tried to make it.

Yes, there is a rationalization in the story for why only Priscilla can recruit Raven. There is also a rationalization for why Matthew is a thief and not something else. If I am forced to field her, move her, and have her select an action only she can take to get an enormous benefit, then I have “used” Priscilla under any commonly accepted definition of the term. It is not a pure story event if something has an impact on how a chapter is actually played, and it certainly has an impact on how you play chapter 17. The fact that I can do it without having her get off a single heal is irreverent. I can use Matthew just to get the Silver Card and leave him on the bench for the rest of the game.

I fully understand how this is counter-intuitive, and actually did consider bringing it up as a joke until I realized it was logically valid. Priscilla could die immediately after recruiting him and you would still get the full benefit he provides, and even she does not, fielding Priscilla and fielding Raven in later chapters are completely separate actions. Again, the situation with the Silver Card is no different. You can trade it from his inventory and kill him on the next turn, and you still get half off on everything you buy. Using a unit slot on Matthew in a later chapter and using an equipment slot on the Silver Card are also completely separate actions.

Taking everything to its logical conclusion has serious implications. So what? Why should I care that Dart automatically goes above Gietz? I dislike that a unit I almost never field past chapter 23 is being ranked above units that helped for close to the entire game, but credit must be given where credit is due.

Think about it.

[Junkhead]

But even if ranks helps Serra far more than in a pure efficiency run, best unit? First, I'll need a bit more than "Raven is meh at his start" (especially since if that's the case, axe-heavy Port of Badon clears that right up), and then you have Matthew to contend with, who when it comes to the ranks is pretty much unthronable due to the funds rank and the silver card.

Raven is great, but I am afraid he won't do too much in Port Badon...there is an axe user with a killer axe and bears over 40 Hit against him, unless he kills that corsair it's all fine.

Don't need to waste turns to staff abuse. Just use Sleep once and Torch 5 times over Heal or something before Chapter 20 and Serra should promote at 20/1.

Sounds like exellent training 8]

But I wouldn't say she is exactly one of the best units...Priscilla is there too, she has higher Mag as well as having anima which is lighter and slightly stronger, problem is her E rank locks her to fire at first...

[Inui]

Priscilla has higher Mag than Serra? Since when? Serra has a 5+ level lead on her that never goes away.

[Life]

The big difference between Matthew and Prissy (for me) is that recruiting Raven is something that any unit (not any character) can potentially do. Stealing the Silver Card is something that any character (not any unit) can do.

Let's say that instead of Prissy being a Troubadour, she was instead a cleric. She'd still be the only one to recruit Raven. However, if Matthew was a myrmidon and not a thief, nobody could steal the Silver Card.

We're not rewarding Matthew. We're rewarding the one thief we have at that moment who's name happens to be Matthew. But we're not rewarding our troubadour for recruiting a mercenary because if she was a cleric or any other job, she'd still be the only person to recruit that mercenary.

The tier list is a list of units (not characters) who happen to have these specific names.

Priscilla has higher Mag than Serra? Since when? Serra has a 5+ level lead on her that never goes away.

Please tell me you're joking.

Serra - Level 8 Cleric - Mag: 5.5

Prissy - Level 3 Troubadour - Mag: 6

And Prissy's at base level.

Serra obviously beats her after promotion. But before? Prissy's ahead most of the time.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Inui]

The big difference between Matthew and Prissy (for me) is that recruiting Raven is something that any unit (not any character) can potentially do. Stealing the Silver Card is something that any character (not any unit) can do.

Let's say that instead of Prissy being a Troubadour, she was instead a cleric. She'd still be the only one to recruit Raven. However, if Matthew was a myrmidon and not a thief, nobody could steal the Silver Card.

We're not rewarding Matthew. We're rewarding the one thief we have at that moment who's name happens to be Matthew. But we're not rewarding our troubadour for recruiting a mercenary because if she was a cleric or any other job, she'd still be the only person to recruit that mercenary.

The tier list is a list of units (not characters) who happen to have these specific names.

"If I am forced to field her, move her, and have her select an action only she can take to get an enormous benefit, then I have “used” Priscilla under any commonly accepted definition of the term."

Please tell me you're joking.

Serra - Level 8 Cleric - Mag: 5.5

Prissy - Level 3 Troubadour - Mag: 6

And Prissy's at base level.

Serra obviously beats her after promotion. But before? Prissy's ahead most of the time.

Unfortunately, that's Serra's level out of LHM (or even lower going by what Reikken and CATS do). When Priscilla joins? It's higher. Priscilla never ties her in Mag and always loses.

[Life]

"If I am forced to field her, move her, and have her select an action only she can take to get an enormous benefit, then I have “used” Priscilla under any commonly accepted definition of the term."

Like I said, the tier list is a list of units. We're not ranking them on personality, manliness or hair style, we're ranking them on abilities. Matthew's ability to steal is because he is a thief. Prissy talking to Raven has nothing to do with her actual abilities. By your logic, Matthew then also gets credit for recruiting Guy, keeping him at the top of the tier list and Prissy stays where she is if not moving higher because she is then responsible for all of Raven's contributions. In fact, she'd be moved to the spot above Raven in that case because without her, Raven doesn't exist.

But that's not the right way to look at it. What if Prissy was the absolute worst unit in the game? Like Karla bad. Like Wallace bad. She's still required in order to recruit Raven. Would she then jump halfway up the list just because she recruits Raven? Absolutely not.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Inui]

Like I said, the tier list is a list of units. We're not ranking them on personality, manliness or hair style, we're ranking them on abilities. Matthew's ability to steal is because he is a thief. Prissy talking to Raven has nothing to do with her actual abilities. By your logic, Matthew then also gets credit for recruiting Guy, keeping him at the top of the tier list and Prissy stays where she is if not moving higher because she is then responsible for all of Raven's contributions. In fact, she'd be moved to the spot above Raven in that case because without her, Raven doesn't exist.

But that's not the right way to look at it. What if Prissy was the absolute worst unit in the game? Like Karla bad. Like Wallace bad. She's still required in order to recruit Raven. Would she then jump halfway up the list just because she recruits Raven? Absolutely not.

That's not my logic. I was the one saying Matthew's placement made more sense than counting Priscilla's recruitment of Raven. GreatEclipse was the person that came up with that logic. And you know what? It beat anything me and CATS said, and it makes more sense than what you said. Both are action commands. One steals something, and only Matthew can do it. One recruits someone, and only Priscilla can do it.

Yes, "what if?" indeed. That's what is gay. If unit recruitment and seizing are to be voided on a tier list, so should Matthew's stealing of the Silver Card.

[Florete]

The "Priscilla is definitely top tier" mentality needs to go away. I've provided enough proof to cast doubt, just like with Funds.

I find this funny since, as far as I can tell, no one here agrees with you on either subject!

I'll ask you again, since you didn't answer last time: Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe...You could be wrong?

Yes, "what if?" indeed. That's what is gay. If unit recruitment and seizing are to be voided on a tier list, so should Matthew's stealing of the Silver Card.

This is pretty retarded as well, because if you void the Silver Card, you have to void all the Thief work Matthew does (it's all the same shit), and it wouldn't make sense to see him drop to the middle of the list based on that, now would it?

Edited February 19, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Life]

Yes, "what if?" indeed. That's what is gay. If unit recruitment and seizing are to be voided on a tier list, so should Matthew's stealing of the Silver Card.

So should Attack. So should... Items. So should... the entire tier list with this logic. It doesn't make sense.

What about my other question? What if none of these units had names? Thief would still gain credit for stealing as he is the only one who could do so but Troubadour could be Cleric #2 and still recruit Mercenary.

[Inui]

I find this funny since, as far as I can tell, no one here agrees with you on either subject!

I'll ask you again, since you didn't answer last time: Did you ever consider that maybe, just maybe...You could be wrong?

To quote CATS, I don't need to be agreed with to be right. Everyone can think one way, and I can think differently, and I can end up right. It's happened plenty of times in this thread alone.

In this case? Nope. I have provided sound reasoning and real evidence to put Priscilla's placement into question. SF's habit of ignoring things doesn't change what I have shown. Please stop being mad that your favorite unit could possibly drop a tier. I understand that Priscilla has been in top tier forever and that changing her spot sounds odd, but the evidence is there.

Priscilla can't exceed level 7 before the first Guiding Ring is obtained. Serra is likely to promote with it in when you start the Dragons Gate. A 20/1 Serra will exist when Priscilla is 11/0 or so. That is substantial. How is Priscilla's 1-2 Mov lead throughout the game more meaningful than more Experience contributions (Serra will dwarf her in level forever), significantly better combat abilities, and getting enemy phase combat way sooner that actually can be used (Priscilla's durability is always bad)? Serra seems to be a tier better when you look at things like this. When the second Guiding Ring in Chapter 20 is obtained, Erk is at or near 20/0 and will obviously use it. This adds an additional healer to your team, decreasing the uniqueness of what Priscilla does, but Serra still has combat and healing. If you're using Lucius, he will have a level lead on Priscilla of about 3-4, and Canas will be in the same boat. Every single magic user is good (Canas is too low on this list, but that can be addressed later). During this time, Serra has been a much better unit, has been around longer, and began providing combat utility much sooner, and she's good at killing things. Her supports are horrendously slow, but she has an awesome affinity and her possible partners all like the bonuses she gives. She has a 15/+1 with Hector that gives them both full Crit and defensive boosts, and a 10/+1 with Oswin that gives full defensive boosts. Both start to build in Chapter 12. She has a 0/+2 with Sain, and Sain doesn't join late and has no real options for a B, so a C occurring between them in the lategame (probably before Priscilla promotes, lol) is plausible. Lucius is also a 0/+2, but he has better options usually. Calling those C's not viable is ridiculous. The first two I mentioned can occur around the time Serra can enter combat, +10 Evd/+2 Def makes her stomp Priscilla in durability forever and gives her enemy phase utility.

Just because you choose to ignore all of this over and over doesn't stop it from being true. Enough logic and evidence has been provided to put Priscilla's placement into question. She never fixes her durability problems and she always loses really badly to Serra. In the lategame, 2 Mov doesn't exceed winning in basically every other stat.

This is pretty retarded as well, because if you void the Silver Card, you have to void all the Thief work Matthew does (it's all the same shit), and it wouldn't make sense to see him drop to the middle of the list based on that, now would it?

That's a good point. I wish I thought of it while debating with GreatEclipse. I'll go quote you and see what he thinks.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Inui

[Florete]

To quote CATS, I don't need to be agreed with to be right. Everyone can think one way, and I can think differently, and I can end up right. It's happened plenty of times in this thread alone.

While that's true, it's not likely (And where has it happened in this thread?). You are no Reikken proving Kieran > Ike here. You may think none of us are any good at debating, but we know what we're talking about.

My old band director told us, "If you're right and everyone else is wrong, you're probably wrong."

Note the word "probably," meaning it isn't definite, only probable. From what I can see, you are alone here against 2 or 3 people discussing with you and more who aren't actually arguing for various reasons. As much as it's true that you can be alone and turn out right, if no one is convinced by you, you need to realize you're in over your head.

I'll interpret your response here to mean "No" was the answer to my question, and since you have that mindset, I refuse to debate with you any longer with the exception of the formal debate I still need to finish with you.

In this case? Nope. I have provided sound reasoning and real evidence to put Priscilla's placement into question. SF's habit of ignoring things doesn't change what I have shown. Please stop being mad that your favorite unit could possibly drop a tier. I understand that Priscilla has been in top tier forever and that changing her spot sounds odd, but the evidence is there.

You ever think there might be a good reason people are ignoring you? Oh wait, you already answered that.

Yes, Priscilla is my favorite unit. No, I am not vehemently against you because you want her down. If someone made a legitimate case to drop her, I would debate it calmly with them. I do not consider your case legitimate, but debating with you lately has become more frustrating than fun, which no one, not even the likes of Paperblade or smash fanatic, has ever accomplished.

[Life]

C Hector is not happening. You're telling me that a frontliner (Hector) is going to spend 65 turns beside Serra for a lousy C support? You called my LynxFlorina support bullshit and that is only 42 turns for an A!