FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Life]

You know, I personally believe that Prissy's position should be determined by Serra's performance and pitfalls. Since I've got class in about 20 minutes (and then I'm gone for a week), I can't explain now but I'll try when I get back.

EDIT: And today was going to be a good day... Even though I beat a bunch of engineers at their own game (got over the 62% class average for my physics midterm), I just can't muster up the energy to do anything. Sorry. I'll try to post later.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Reikken]

Wtf?

You're wtfing because you still think that Priscilla gains ~9 levels in the span that Serra gains 4.

Destroys? No. Wins? Yes. You are seriously overrating this. Priscilla still exists. She's still slightly better at healing due to move, she still has Aid. Honestly, Guy > Raven if a few chapters of winning means so much.

No, it's not an overrating at all. For two reasons. Healers gain a loooot on promotion. What does Guy get that he didn't have before when he promotes. Not a whole lot. He's a better at boss slaying and better at combat in a few situations. What does Serra get? The ability to one-round scrubs when they attack her, even coupled with enough defense to make nice use of that. Even if she never attacked on player phase and just used staves, she can efficiently go places Priscilla can't due to being able to counter--and even go places where Priscilla would get killed, and kill things in the process. That alone is already a pretty dang amazing improvement. But then she can indeed attack on player phase. Often doing so is more helpful. THIS is the only part where "Priscilla still exists".

Serra's player phase increases by more than Guy's increases because not only does she gain more defense and more raw power (making gaining +crit and +stats for offense as being equal to gaining an additional option to attack or heal rather than just heal) like Guy does, but also she gains the ability to counterattack, so she has a greater increase in freedom of movement than is granted by just the gain in defense alone like what Guy gets. And then she gains the ability to be productive on enemy phase. Guy gains nothing of the sort when he promotes. No, you can't at all compare Guy promoting before Raven to Serra promoting before Priscilla. Healers gain way way more when they promote. Also, the promotion gap between Serra and Priscilla is bigger than between Guy and Raven.

Only if you're tactically inept in the first place.

Quite untrue. It's often advantageous to let someone who can't counter be attacked in order to let you kill a certain enemy or reach a certain point faster. Additionally, very often those enemies who are going uncountered wouldn't have been counterattacked anyway or wouldn't have died even had they been countered, making for little to no disadvantage in the first place.

[Colonel M]

Another thing you have to remember with Rutgar vs. Lance and Allan is that the maps are so huge that movement power is a powerful advantage to use. This game is far more forgiving in that aspect.

I wouldn't hype Guy's Killing Edge to hades and back. It's a 20 use weapon, which is about 10 rounds of combat for him. It can be used marginally (I don't have an issue with him having the item), but if you're doing the strategy for C19XX then you definitely need it. With the Iron Sword he has the same Atk as Lowen with 2 Levels on him, but admittedly he does double better. In Chapter 15 both are useful. Guy takes the stuff in the Westbound lane with all the Fighters while Lowen can handle the lower section with a couple other units accommodating him (Probably Marcus, Eliwood, and Marcus). Oswin is just going to laugh up north so don't worry about him. Chapter 16 uses a bit of Movement power and Lowen can wield the Horseslayer to help clear the field of a Cavalier in one turn (he probably needs some weakening but not a major problem). Chapter 17 is about the heaviest Mov chapter one can think of really. Chapter 17X I'd give to Guy, but there's also 5 slots and one could be sending Eliwood and / or Lyn to get a couple of levels for getting Geitz. Either way, both are questionable to field. Chapter 18 is a defend map. A Level 11 Lowen has 31 HP | 10.6 Def, or 11. The Mercenaries have about 17 Atk tops, which is 6 damage (you're using a Lance. Or I hope to God you are anyway), which is a 6RKO. I also noticed that the Shamans have Pure Waters to steal, so that's another goodie for Lowen. He has 2.7 Res, so let's say 3, which makes 10 Res after that. He takes about the same amount of damage from the Shamans as he does from the Mercenaries, a little less from the Mercenaries at least. He does 3RKO the Mercenaries and he can ORKO the Shamans with the Javelin at least. The Javelin leaves him 9 AS (8 in the worst case scenario), so he should be alright vs. the Mercenaries that are losing AS from Steel Sword anyway. Guy, at the same level, has 31 HP | 7 Def and no option to 2 range nor the option to have WTA against the Mercenaries. He even falls under the triangle for the Pegasus Knights, which spawn often.

Chapter 19 is a bit more kinder to Guy since there's Pirates all over the place. Steel Axe Pirates have about 21 Atk, 77 Hit, 5 AS. So really Lowen is doubling these guys too with a Steel Sword. He misses out on the Hand Axe ones, but he can double the Cavs that are weighed down alright (I saw one with an Iron Sword). There's a Nomad, but he only has 14 Atk. That's not a big deal with Lowen really (3 damage per round). There are some Pegasi. Looks like some have an Iron Lance (this one had 6 AS). So Guy does marginally better vs. the Nomads (granted Lowen can snipe them with a Horseslayer so long as they aren't on the forests) and definitely wins against Uhai.

To be honest, Chapter 19X is pretty much about Movement after Kishuna appears. Making sure that Aion is taken out (but grab the Silver Card!) and then hitting Kishuna if we're going to 19XX. The Pegasi in C19X have Axereavers, so Lowen does okay against them. If Guy wants to guard the Tent, it's fine. The rest of the map, aside from harmless Mages and Shamans, are Knights (Lowen always does better against these) and a Brigand with a Swordreaver. The Mages have 6-7 AS, so by this point Lowen might double some of them that come after us with the Javelin, though he might miss out on some of them. Kishuna only blocks some of the field though unless he moves on the map, so the Mages are still somewhat a threat. Just that Aion is "shit outta luck".

After that, it's Lowen's movement + defense vs. Guy's offense + getting durability with the Lancereaver. So then let's look at them 20/1 at Pascal:

Lowen (B Eliwood / B Marcus) - 41.2 HP | 13.4 Str | 11.4 Skl | 13.4 Spd | 12 Luck | 16.2 Def | 6.4 Res

Killer Lance - 26 Atk, 50 Crit, 13 AS, 58 Avoid, 41 HP, 17 Def, 7 Res

Guy (C Priscilla) - 42.75 HP | 15.1 Str | 20 Skl | 20 Spd | 12.65 Luck | 10.55 Def | 6.25 Res

Killing Edge - 25 Atk, 60 Crit, 18 AS, 51 Avoid, 43 HP, 11 Def, 6 Res

Before you shout "WHERE'S THE MATTHEW SUPPORT?", remember that Matthew is likely capped his level, which means that he won't be fielded unless it's necessary. As for what items he has to steal... they're limited. Unfortunately I don't have a full list, but feel free to prove me wrong on it (with regards to items to steal). I understand there are some, but the point is: it isn't always going to be there due to him harming EXP rank if he fights. By the way, Lowen / Marcus / Eliwood combo is pretty good when you consider it's using their Movement to their max potential. It sucks that Eliwood doesn't really want to triangle Marcus since his first choice is A Hector (it's the fastest support) and I think Eliwood would choose Lowen a little bit earlier before Marcus (more Atk, Eliwood likes more Atk). Anyway, Guy can double a couple more things than Lowen, but it's usually the Mercenaries and that. Lowen is taking almost no damage from these guys anyway, so they might as well not exist in Lowen's eyes. Of course this is the chapter with all the Wyverns, so Guy has to sit with a Lancereaver to keep his Avoid in check. Meanwhile, Lowen is almost guaranteed +15 Avoid, +30 if he uses a Reaver weapon instead. He's also got 2 range to add insult to the injury.

So they could be about 20/6 by VoD. That gives Lowen 15 Spd to deal with. Anyway, Lowen always wins vs. Armor Knights and Generals only because he can, usually, have WTA against them or neutral while Guy can fail against the Silver Lance ones. Lowen can double some of the Snipers (there are some with 12 AS, but some have less). He does, otherwise, fail against doubling some of these enemies on the map. However, he can at least play the Reaver game similair to Guy and dodge about as well as Guy does with more durability on top of it. 2 range is also something to consider, so he can at least chip and weaken some of the promoted enemies for the most part. While it is partially favoritism to give him the Speedwing, his 17 AS can double everything else on the map barring the super fast enemies such as the Heroes (which I mentioned already) and the Nomadic Troopers. Just something to ponder about, and it isn't unfavorable to give the Speedwing to him either. While there are only two, I admit, putting one on a mobile unit that has good durability is acceptable, in my opinion.

So yeah, I think I'm seeing it too. I guess there is question as of which can they beat Oswin, but then again Oswin has an impressive earlygame and only wains out in the later stages of the game where the maps get freaking huge.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

Both are 2HKOd, aren't they? Even so, as long as they aren't OHKOd, I doubt this will ever be an issue.

No. Priscilla can get OHK'd, and Serra can get 3HK'd. Check out ch 15 for example. There are lots of enemies with 19 and 13 atk. 19 OHKs Priscilla, and 13 3HKs Serra.

You know, I could also argue Priscilla contributes more to the Experience rank. Sure, they'll probably gain around the same by the end of the game, but Priscilla got 17 levels of SEXP while Serra only got ~11, and unpromoted SEXP is the best help you can get for Experience.

Indeed you can. However, they both gain SEXP while promoted as well. Serra's getting 2-4 levels of promoted SEXP while Priscilla is unpromoted, making that gap smaller than what you posted.

And again, if it's only there for the very end, what difference does it make?

It's not just the very end. You have up to 335 turns to 5★ tactics. Serra's supports start about 50 turns in, so even building supports only 33% of the time is enough to get to a B 45 turns before the end, which is an appreciable amount of time. Building 40% of the time makes for reaching B with 85 turns left. 45% and 50%, while harder to accomplish, are also not unreasonable if you aren't "tactically inept", and those leave 107 and 125 turns respectively.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

No. Priscilla can get OHK'd, and Serra can get 3HK'd. Check out ch 15 for example. There are lots of enemies with 19 and 13 atk. 19 OHKs Priscilla, and 13 3HKs Serra.

I didn't see a lot of enemies with 19 Atk. The Hammer Fighters were one, but sometimes the Knights were 17-19. Regardless, enemies that Priscilla will never face. Either way, the healers shouldn't be attacked except by 2 range, which both are surviving anyway in this chapter and Atk can still go up to 14, so you can still see situations where Serra is 2RKOed often like Priscilla.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Colonel M

[Reikken]

Of course Priscilla doesn't face them, because she dies if she does. You don't have the freedom to do things that would put her there like you do with Serra.

14 and even 15 atk may 3HK Serra.

[Inui]

I'd quote and debate Red Fox, but Reikken's already got that covered, so there's no need.

Another thing you have to remember with Rutgar vs. Lance and Allan is that the maps are so huge that movement power is a powerful advantage to use. This game is far more forgiving in that aspect.

But FE 6 has a lenient Tactics rank. This game does not.

(Probably Marcus, Eliwood, and Marcus)

Marcus is so strong he counts twice! Ya heard it hear first, baby!

So they could be about 20/6 by VoD.

Wtf? Even if Lowen promotes as late as the middle of Four-Fanged Offense with the Earth Seal there, he has half of 24 and then 25, 26, 27, 28, 28x, 29, and 31 before VoD, and a lot of those chapters are really big with promoted enemies, and Lowen is completely ideal for baiting enemies. Why is he gaining only five levels? Anything lower than 20/10 for a mobile tank in VoD seems unreasonable since he's seeing so much combat overall.

So yeah, I think I'm seeing it too. I guess there is question as of which can they beat Oswin, but then again Oswin has an impressive earlygame and only wains out in the later stages of the game where the maps get freaking huge.

Kent/Sain > Osw1n imo. Not sure about Lowen. 3 Mov vs 7 Atk.

[Colonel M]

Of course Priscilla doesn't face them, because she dies if she does. You don't have the freedom to do things that would put her there like you do with Serra.

14 and even 15 atk may 3HK Serra.

Why would you ever put Priscilla or Serra in front of Fighters? That sounds absurd. You have Guy or Matthew block the corridor and Priscilla and Serra heal on the sidelines. You don't just randomly put a healer in front of an enemy.

But FE 6 has a lenient Tactics rank. This game does not.

Even with the lenient Tactics rank, the point is the Paladins are clearing the chapters far and beyond faster than Rutgar is. 6 Mov vs. 8 turns pretty substantial when you consider the size of those maps.

Wtf? Even if Lowen promotes as late as the middle of Four-Fanged Offense with the Earth Seal there, he has half of 24 and then 25, 26, 27, 28, 28x, 29, and 31 before VoD, and a lot of those chapters are really big with promoted enemies, and Lowen is completely ideal for baiting enemies. Why is he gaining only five levels? Anything lower than 20/10 for a mobile tank in VoD seems unreasonable since he's seeing so much combat overall.

It was only an estimation. It's perfectly fine if you want to assume a unit at 20/10 in VoD so long as everyone can agree with it. I did the safer approach and assumed a slightly lower level for that reason.

Kent/Sain > Osw1n imo. Not sure about Lowen. 3 Mov vs 7 Atk.

Chapters like Cog of Destiny and Victory or Death can leave Oswin behind when you have the Cavaliers + Eliwood moving ahead. Units can't even ferry him because of his 16 Con after promotion. I guess with the smaller maps Lowen's Mov doesn't seem like a "major" ordeal, but I'd be willing to contest it as better if I need to.

[Inui]

Why would you ever put Priscilla or Serra in front of Fighters? That sounds absurd. You have Guy or Matthew block the corridor and Priscilla and Serra heal on the sidelines. You don't just randomly put a healer in front of an enemy.

I guess I'm the only one that sees merit in what Reikken is talking about, huh?

Even with the lenient Tactics rank, the point is the Paladins are clearing the chapters far and beyond faster than Rutgar is. 6 Mov vs. 8 turns pretty substantial when you consider the size of those maps.

Explain the need to finish chapters faster than what the Tactics rank requires. If Rutger's offense is way better (it is), then why not move at his pace so he kills things? Also, every chapter ever = seize, and only 5 Mov Roy can do that.

It was only an estimation. It's perfectly fine if you want to assume a unit at 20/10 in VoD so long as everyone can agree with it. I did the safer approach and assumed a slightly lower level for that reason.

I sometimes get accused of inflating levels, but the opposite can be said for other people, as I've noticed. Lowen can probably get over 20/10 in VoD if he promotes with the first or second Knight Crest. The first is unlikely. The second is not.

Chapters like Cog of Destiny and Victory or Death can leave Oswin behind when you have the Cavaliers + Eliwood moving ahead. Units can't even ferry him because of his 16 Con after promotion. I guess with the smaller maps Lowen's Mov doesn't seem like a "major" ordeal, but I'd be willing to contest it as better if I need to.

CoD has a high density of magic users, many of them quite powerful, and tons of status staves. I don't think ANYONE is charging in that chapter. Mov matters a lot in chapters 17, 19xx, and 28 the most by far. Outside of that, Oswin's crappy Mov is manageable, and even in 17 he can just sit back and rape reinforcements to protect Merlinus.

[frat_tastic]

I can see the merit. Either way, the fact that Serra has more durability can't just be tossed aside because "lol healerz don't get hurt or u suk!". Saying they'll never get attacked because we don't suck at the game is a cop-out answer. Someone could make a mistake in their playthrough, and Serra's durability could leave her alive where it would leave Priscilla dead.

Worth way more than Prsicilla's AID and move if you ask me. Seriously, move doesn't make you better at healing. It makes you better at moving. Also by the time we get to big open maps we have Physic, so move isn't worth as much as it's being given credit for.

Edited February 19, 2010 by frat_tastic

[CATS]

Whoa, people actually moved past the "you're ridiculous!" and "no u!" stage to actual discussion, cool.

My question is this: You guys are all assuming Priscilla doesn't promote until way later while Serra gets the first Guiding Ring, which is skewed at best. The first Guiding Ring still has an opportunity cost. So is it better to promote Priscilla early and have her contribute to Tactics, or leave her unpromoted and raise her to 20 in order to pad Exp? If it's better to leave her unpromoted anyways then w/e, but if it would be better to early-promote her and you're denying her a Ring while giving one to Serra, that's skewing things in Serra's favor pretty badly.

[Ansem]

Why is Matthew top tier?

[Life]

Whoa, people actually moved past the "you're ridiculous!" and "no u!" stage to actual discussion, cool.

My question is this: You guys are all assuming Priscilla doesn't promote until way later while Serra gets the first Guiding Ring, which is skewed at best. The first Guiding Ring still has an opportunity cost. So is it better to promote Priscilla early and have her contribute to Tactics, or leave her unpromoted and raise her to 20 in order to pad Exp? If it's better to leave her unpromoted anyways then w/e, but if it would be better to early-promote her and you're denying her a Ring while giving one to Serra, that's skewing things in Serra's favor pretty badly.

I'm personally for promoting Prissy anywhere past 16/0 to get a jump on the CExp and Tactics. No proof though so there's no point in replying to this.

[Reikken]

Why would you ever put Priscilla or Serra in front of Fighters? That sounds absurd. You have Guy or Matthew block the corridor and Priscilla and Serra heal on the sidelines. You don't just randomly put a healer in front of an enemy.

The primary "corridor" in question is 3 tiles wide and most of the combat likely happens beyond its reach, out in the relatively open area. And there are a lot of bows/javelins/mages.

At the other two locations, it's only one tile wide, but you'll also be having only 1 combat unit there at most since the bulk of your forces needs to be in the main area, so it's not always possible to completely block it while still killing what needs to be killed. And even if you can, on the right side especially, there are lots of ranged enemies.

Also, this is just one chapter out of many. Don't get too caught up on the specifics of it.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Reikken

[Florete]

You're wtfing because you still think that Priscilla gains ~9 levels in the span that Serra gains 4.

I don't see you countering my explanation as to why except with "lots of combat," which likely isn't getting Serra more than 4 levels anyway (experience boost doesn't get her that much, and her SEXP is halved). And it isn't 9 levels, it's more like 7-8.

No, it's not an overrating at all. For two reasons. Healers gain a loooot on promotion. What does Guy get that he didn't have before when he promotes. Not a whole lot. He's a better at boss slaying and better at combat in a few situations. What does Serra get? The ability to one-round scrubs when they attack her, even coupled with enough defense to make nice use of that. Even if she never attacked on player phase and just used staves, she can efficiently go places Priscilla can't due to being able to counter--and even go places where Priscilla would get killed, and kill things in the process. That alone is already a pretty dang amazing improvement. But then she can indeed attack on player phase. Often doing so is more helpful. THIS is the only part where "Priscilla still exists".

Serra's player phase increases by more than Guy's increases because not only does she gain more defense and more raw power (making gaining +crit and +stats for offense as being equal to gaining an additional option to attack or heal rather than just heal) like Guy does, but also she gains the ability to counterattack, so she has a greater increase in freedom of movement than is granted by just the gain in defense alone like what Guy gets. And then she gains the ability to be productive on enemy phase. Guy gains nothing of the sort when he promotes. No, you can't at all compare Guy promoting before Raven to Serra promoting before Priscilla. Healers gain way way more when they promote. Also, the promotion gap between Serra and Priscilla is bigger than between Guy and Raven.

Wow, you totally and completely missed my point. This has absolutely nothing to do with when Guy or Raven promote, this has to do with Guy's 5 maps before Raven shows up. I'm comparing Serra's alone promotion time to a common availability advantage and wondering why so much weight is being put on it. Yes, Serra can attack for 5 maps while Priscilla can't. Guy can do the same against Raven, only Raven isn't even there to contribute at all while Priscilla still exists on Serra's team.

Serra has this "availability" advantage on Priscilla. Guy has this availability advantage on Raven. Priscilla wins elsewhere (I calculated ~69% of the game). Raven wins elsewhere (a bit before promotion and always after). So why is it switched in this situation? Why is Raven >>> Guy while Serra >>> Priscilla?

Quite untrue. It's often advantageous to let someone who can't counter be attacked in order to let you kill a certain enemy or reach a certain point faster. Additionally, very often those enemies who are going uncountered wouldn't have been counterattacked anyway or wouldn't have died even had they been countered, making for little to no disadvantage in the first place.

This is why it would be a problem if we were talking FE10 healers, but we aren't. You shouldn't be having your healers dodge tank multiple enemies, and even if it should be 1, Priscilla is rarely OHKOd anyway.

No. Priscilla can get OHK'd, and Serra can get 3HK'd. Check out ch 15 for example. There are lots of enemies with 19 and 13 atk. 19 OHKs Priscilla, and 13 3HKs Serra.

Aside from Colonel already covering that, saying it that way sounds weird. You make it sound like what OHKOs Priscilla 3HKOs Serra, which obviously isn't true. You probably didn't mean that, I just thought I'd point it out just in case.

Indeed you can. However, they both gain SEXP while promoted as well. Serra's getting 2-4 levels of promoted SEXP while Priscilla is unpromoted, making that gap smaller than what you posted.

Wait, wtf? 2-4 levels of only promoted SEXP while Priscilla is still unpromoted? That's either absurd or a blatant sandbag. You won't be having Serra heal as much because you want to Priscilla to do it for the extra experience and so she can promote. I already mentioned this.

It's not just the very end. You have up to 335 turns to 5★ tactics. Serra's supports start about 50 turns in, so even building supports only 33% of the time is enough to get to a B 45 turns before the end, which is an appreciable amount of time. Building 40% of the time makes for reaching B with 85 turns left. 45% and 50%, while harder to accomplish, are also not unreasonable if you aren't "tactically inept", and those leave 107 and 125 turns respectively.

Okay, but again...Will it make a difference?

And Reikken, you're arguing here, but do you know what it's for? Do you really think there should be a full tier gap between Serra and Priscilla? I'm not even fighting for Priscilla > Serra here.

I can see the merit. Either way, the fact that Serra has more durability can't just be tossed aside because "lol healerz don't get hurt or u suk!". Saying they'll never get attacked because we don't suck at the game is a cop-out answer. Someone could make a mistake in their playthrough, and Serra's durability could leave her alive where it would leave Priscilla dead.

Like I said, it would be easier to use as an advantage if Priscilla could be consistently OHKOd, but that isn't the case. I suppose it is a slight advantage, but it's worth almost nothing.

Worth way more than Prsicilla's AID and move if you ask me. Seriously, move doesn't make you better at healing. It makes you better at moving. Also by the time we get to big open maps we have Physic, so move isn't worth as much as it's being given credit for.

Uh, no. Moving farther = more healing. You can reach more. Aid means you can Rescue, like bringing someone like Hector or Oswin to the frontline a lot faster or catching up someone who was at the back of the army. If you think Serra's slight durability is worth more than Priscilla's move and Aid, you need to rethink your argument, because that's just stupid.

[Inui]

I don't see you countering my explanation as to why except with "lots of combat," which likely isn't getting Serra more than 4 levels anyway (experience boost doesn't get her that much, and her SEXP is halved). And it isn't 9 levels, it's more like 7-8.

Serra should gain two levels alone in Chapter 23. Maybe even 2.5-3. Healing + killing a boss + fighting lots of stuff that can't hit her. Who else can fight a lot here? Erk and fliers, and there are bows and Wyverns, so Heath and Florina have some issues.

[Florete]

Serra should gain two levels alone in Chapter 23. Maybe even 2.5-3. Healing + killing a boss + fighting lots of stuff that can't hit her. Who else can fight a lot here? Erk and fliers, and there are bows and Wyverns, so Heath and Florina have some issues.

What? That's absurd. Sure, she can fight a lot, but she won't be fighting that much, she probably couldn't take it all, plus you need to gain a total of 700 experience to hit 23x so you need to spread your experience out, which means you likely need to Rescue Pent, which means fliers will be out there. Don't forget there are Wyverns out there.

Even so, giving her an extra level over what I originally had won't change much, if anything. It might make her slightly better when Priscilla initially promotes but Priscilla will catch up anyway.

[Inui]

I wouldn't call it "absurd" and I thought we were trying to move past insulting people and arguments.

Lucius is ramming 20/0 if you're using him. Priscilla's on a horse, so lol. Fliers have to deal with bows and Heath has to deal with those and magic. The bosses are kinda strong. Who's doing most of the work here? Probably Serra and Erk (a C support between them would be pretty h4x in this chapter). Even if Serra kills a bunch of enemies and a boss and does healing, there's plenty of other EXP to gain. Priscilla using Physic from the back, Ninian dancing, the other boss kill... Getting 700 EXP in this chapter seems easy, and Serra is definitely gaining over 1 level.

[Florete]

I wouldn't call it "absurd" and I thought we were trying to move past insulting people and arguments.

I didn't insult you, but I must take back my insult of your argument since I will have to mostly concede. Only mostly because I don't think Serra is reasonably getting more than 1.5-2 levels. As I mentioned, you will likely need to Rescue Pent, which means you'll need a flier or two out there (I usually have promoted Florina), even if they need to stock Vulneraries or Elixirs. Heath can use Pure Water for the Magic enemies.

My second point still stands. She might get an extra level as a result, but nothing really changes.

[Inui]

How does Priscilla ever catch up after promotion?

Serra's like 20/7 and she's 20/1 (imo Serra could be higher), and Serra has more durability and offense to be able to see more combat. Way more durability, actually. They both gain the same EXP from staves, but Serra is able to see more combat.

[frat_tastic]

It's been shown that Serra's durability lead can mean the difference between a OHKO and a 2HKO, or a 2HKO and a 3HKO, so yeah, it fo sho matters.

You're way overhyping Priscilla's MOV. For a loooong time, the only place its really worth a whole lot is in 17. Serra promtoes around like CH 21 or 22, so then she's only 1 move behind Priscilla anyway.

Serra's durability lead is far more significant than Priscilla's move lead.

[Balcerzak]

I think things are moving awful fast on the Serra vs Priscilla. Yeah, I think Serra is better, but I don't think she's a whole tier better. I think the move advantage is being severely downplayed, and the levels of characters inflated (I've already mentioned this before). Yes, Serra will have a level lead on Priscilla. However once she promotes she's not magically gaining ridiculous amounts of experience. The fact that she can now attack, and at 1-2 range, now means enemies will preferentially target other people rather than her. This is still a good thing, in that it allows her flexibility when she needs to heal, but it means she won't be reaping in huge amounts of enemy phase combat as it seems like is being suggested.

Then there's the fact of being preferentially given boss kills in Living Legend? I don't see this happening. Assuming she's even promoted by now, your magic wielders should be dealing with the wyverns, as your sword users can take the axe-wielding Berserkers Warriors no problem (weapon triangle, and the fact that you'll need to be close enough to steal from them anyway).

Since combat XP is the only way Serra can possibly make gains on Priscilla, and she usually will still be healing, as people are always getting hurt, and she earns less for staff XP now that she's a Bishop, I really have a very hard time buying the level lead increasing in Serra's favor. It's likely staying at the status quo.

I can't really go into anything more in depth than this, but felt I really need to weigh in in that, there really doesn't seem to be a reason for Prisc to have gone down to High tier at all. Maybe this is just my gut, but something feels wrong about that, and it seems we're moving far too hasty on the issue.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Inui]

Name an unpromoted sword user that is fighting those bosses. They can't even get to them quickly at all and suck huge balls against the Wyverns/Mages/Archers. Raven and Guy are promoted by now, Eliwood, Matthew, and Lyn are ramming 20/0 or are very close to it, and horse riders can't get to the bosses unless you feel like chilling there for 15 turns. A promoted Serra that's 20/2-3 is still getting more or the same EXP as a 20/1 unit for those kills.

Is Legault fighting them? Lol.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Inui

[Reikken]

Do you really think there should be a full tier gap between Serra and Priscilla?

Indeed I do.

I don't see you countering my explanation as to why except with "lots of combat," which likely isn't getting Serra more than 4 levels anyway (experience boost doesn't get her that much, and her SEXP is halved). And it isn't 9 levels, it's more like 7-8.

...

Wait, wtf? 2-4 levels of only promoted SEXP while Priscilla is still unpromoted? That's either absurd or a blatant sandbag. You won't be having Serra heal as much because you want to Priscilla to do it for the extra experience and so she can promote. I already mentioned this.

Oh? Only 7-8? Serra comes out of LHM as high as 12, so assuming lv 10 and a few points of exp, she's 12 by Priscilla's joining. That's 9 levels.

Half of 9 levels due to her being promoted already = 4-5. If you so choose, you can have Serra heal as much as you can have Priscilla heal. More, even, since she doesn't have to hang back to avoid getting hit. Then cut just a little more off that due to occasional attacking on player phase and/or not using Physic unnecessarily (The thing's expensive. One staff is almost 4k.) to get the 4 end. Then have her use her player phase for attacking a lot, and you have the 2 end. That's far from absurd.

Attacking gets her about the same exp as she would get from using a staff, so regardless of how much of her player phase is spent healing vs attacking, exp from player phase is about 5 levels. Then throw on the counterattack exp she gets over those several chapters, and you get what, 7-8? 20/8-9 Serra vs 20/1 Priscilla.

Wow, you totally and completely missed my point. This has absolutely nothing to do with when Guy or Raven promote, this has to do with Guy's 5 maps before Raven shows up. I'm comparing Serra's alone promotion time to a common availability advantage and wondering why so much weight is being put on it. Yes, Serra can attack for 5 maps while Priscilla can't. Guy can do the same against Raven, only Raven isn't even there to contribute at all while Priscilla still exists on Serra's team.

Serra has this "availability" advantage on Priscilla. Guy has this availability advantage on Raven. Priscilla wins elsewhere (I calculated ~69% of the game). Raven wins elsewhere (a bit before promotion and always after). So why is it switched in this situation? Why is Raven >>> Guy while Serra >>> Priscilla?

I see. You should have made that clear.

Well, Serra already has an availability lead on Priscilla, and it's no less than Guy's on Raven's is. For 2.5 of those 5 chapters Guy has on Raven, he's taking up a unit slot that someone else could take. For Serra, however, for all 3.5 of those chapters, it's her vs no one. Then you have the "availability" lead that comes with promotion on top of that. Here it's greater because the lead isn't greatly reduced halfway through like it is with Guy vs Raven.

Now a very important point is that Priscilla doesn't win elsewhere. I would most certainly consider her to be losing slightly before promotion due to fragility, and also losing after again mostly due to issues of durability, though offense does play a role.

This is why it would be a problem if we were talking FE10 healers, but we aren't. You shouldn't be having your healers dodge tank multiple enemies, and even if it should be 1, Priscilla is rarely OHKOd anyway.

What are you talking about? I dunno what the FE10 thing is about, but you're not having your healers tank enemies; you're making tactical/strategic moves that you can't otherwise safely make without your healer being able to live through an attack or two.

Here's a nonspecific example. Say you want to finish off an enemy with someone but you only have a 90% chance of successfully being able to do so. If you attempt and miss, you'll eat a counterattack and also be exposed to one more enemy and thus risk dying. However, if your healer is durable enough to move in and heal without also risking death, you can go ahead with the plan. Otherwise, you can't.

No. Priscilla can get OHK'd, and Serra can get 3HK'd. Check out ch 15 for example. There are lots of enemies with 19 and 13 atk. 19 OHKs Priscilla, and 13 3HKs Serra.

Aside from Colonel already covering that, saying it that way sounds weird. You make it sound like what OHKOs Priscilla 3HKOs Serra, which obviously isn't true. You probably didn't mean that, I just thought I'd point it out just in case.

Eh, I thought it was pretty clear. Just add "and 2HKs the other" after each.

oh and...

Okay, but again...Will it make a difference?

YES. 1 def and 2-3 avoid (and 5 crit) is a lot when it's an addition to everything else.

Edited February 19, 2010 by Reikken

[Balcerzak]

Name an unpromoted sword user that is fighting those bosses. They can't even get to them quickly at all and suck huge balls against the Wyverns/Mages/Archers. Raven and Guy are promoted by now, Eliwood, Matthew, and Lyn are ramming 20/0 or are very close to it, and horse riders can't get to the bosses unless you feel like chilling there for 15 turns. A promoted Serra that's 20/2-3 is still getting more or the same EXP as a 20/1 unit for those kills.

Is Legault fighting them? Lol.

I don't know about you, but I've never had Raven nor Guy promoted this early. I don't know what kind of strategies you use, but your level estimates are madly out of line with my own. You mention people easily getting to 20/10 before endgame, and the only people I ever see that high are prepromotes and Serra and Priscilla due to class bonus. My first string of promotions usually happens at Four Fangs Offense at the earliest, and you're taking about promoting your third string there and worrying that this is "late"? I honestly don't know how you do it.