FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[CATS]

It's one extra hit over what Priscilla can take, and it may or may not be there. As I posted earlier, there are still Atk values which kill them in the same number of hits. It will often be there, but not always, and I think that alone makes a tier gap questionable.

Anyways, the real evidence which makes a tier gap unreasonable is the gap, not necessarily between Serra and Priscilla, but between Priscilla and high tier units. As I posted, I can't see Priscilla in the same tier as someone like Guy at all. If you still want a tier gap, I'd probably be more inclined to agree with you if you were arguing to move Serra up to a Seth/Titania-esque tier, instead of trying to move Priscilla down into High.

[Reikken]

and/or Priscilla to below Ninian/Nils....who should be higher, not that I care enough to argue for it.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Reikken

[Inui]

I believe Serra to be the best unit in the game and Priscilla to be a tier beneath her. Is Serra a tier above Ninian/Nils and Matthew? Likely not. Serra, Matthew, and Ninian/Nils could have their own tier. That'd make sense to me.

[Colonel M]

For Ninian and Nils, I'd find it pretty difficult to override Priscilla. First off, they're main contribution is the EXP rank... just like Priscilla. Priscilla has also been contributing at it for a longer time, if anything, so it's not even that much of a deal. Also, unlike Priscilla, there is no way to "increase" the amount of EXP that you can get. Dancers get 10 flat (or sometimes 11 I can't remember but still the point of it here). Torch gives +15 EXP. Sleep gives +35. Unlock, Barrier, and Recover give +17 EXP. Physics give +22. The point is it isn't very difficult to fluctuate her levels. It's actually really easy, and of course the net positive comes back to contributing to the EXP rank. While some of these staves aren't around until later on after Ninian joins (Barrier and Physic for example), the point is it isn't difficult for her.

Ninian and Nils are only free in, IIRC, C21, C32, and Endgame. So, we can at least give them credit they don't take a unit slot for those 3 chapters. I think, suffice to say, they obviously help the EXP rank. The question is: what else? Well, they can help, to an extent, with the Tactician rank. Now, they only speed up chapters that are either "Kill Boss" or something with "Seize". They technically don't speed up Routs much faster (to be fair, another combat unit can fulfill that role just as easily, just not a second of the other unit like Ninian) and obviously she doesn't speed up Defend chapters that force you to defend (in other words: no shortcut).

Later on with promotion Priscilla continues to contribute with the EXP rank via staves while being secondary with the combat. Now she isn't going to main this all the time (neither should Serra: it should be used for emergencies or if you can provide yourself a decent padding).

To be frank it's between helping a combat rank vs. helping the tactics in some situations, and you have to factor in availability (Ninian and Nils are around almost half the time Priscilla is). You can also be more flexible with Priscilla's EXP rank due to the variety of Staves and availability as well.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[frat_tastic]

Ninian/Nils get 20 EXP for every use of a ring.

If Nils comes out of LHM at level 5, which would be about right for an S Rank IIRC, he gets 15 levels of EXP rank contributions. Priscilla gets more EXP than this, true. What's an estimated endgame level for Priscilla? She promotes really late so it won't be sky-high like some of your other units.

Either way, Ninian/Nils have two other things going for them. I find the ability to move again to be far more useful than Priscilla having combat post-promo. They obviously can let your best attacker go again, which is better than fielding a mediocre combat unit. They can also let a healer heal again, blah blah blah.

The other thing is durability. When Ninian joins, she'll be 5/0 to like, 11/0.

Ninian, 5/0

17.4 HP, 14.8 AS, 6.2 DEF, 6.8 RES, 41 AVO

Priscilla, 11/0

19.6 HP, 11 AS, 4.2 DEF, 10 RES, 34 AVO

Priscilla has 2 HP and about 3 RES to Ninian's 2 DEF and 7 AVO. It's about even I guess.

It only gets better for Ninian after this, with her monster durability growths (DEF is the worst with 30%). She completely destroys Priscilla later on in terms of durability.

Then you mentioned the few occasions where Ninian/Nils get free deployment, none of which Priscilla gets.

I'd see them being better than Priscilla. They contribute less to the EXP rank overall, but they draw their EXP from a totally different pool than anyone else, have unit re-move, have the rings for extra offense or durability for a turn and have way better durability than Priscilla. Priscilla has a little better EXP rank contributions and mediocre offense upon promotion.

[Colonel M]

frat, I think you're underestimating Priscilla's EXP gain with staves a bit too much. You're right that it's possible (and I say possible because it involves a condition where you have two healers), but really how difficult is it to have Priscilla jump in levels? From what I recall, even in playthroughs where I was playing efficiently (by this I mean absent of ranks), I was still able to get Priscilla up to a decent level if I just used the right stavevs. Remember that the ring has a limit of 15 uses. After that, it requires a Hammerne. Speaking of Hammerne, Priscilla can also use this staff to gain +40 EXP after repairing an item.

Is Ninian / Nils > Priscilla possible? I guess I wouldn't say "no", but I don't think that she'd be that far behind in levels in comparison to your other units (if at all, Serra is just ahead which is why you're looking at Priscilla being behind like that I think).

PS: Karla > Wallace.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

The rings have no value. Ninian/Nils cost 0 Gold forever.

Ninian/Nils don't take a deployment slot in 22, 32, and Light, right?

The EXP they gain is free and is from a pool not even healers can access. It takes nothing away from any other unit.

The boosts from the rings exceed whatever supports can do.

The benefits they give you by refreshing units are quite clear with regards to Tactics and efficiency.

And CATS should post about them. :P

[frat_tastic]

Even if I am underestimating how much EXP Priscilla gets (I don't think I am really, you likely are using 2 healers since you get more EXP overall than just one, at the expense of one healer being massively overleveled), Ninian/Nils draw from a completely separate pool ant net you like 1500 EXP that no one else can access. Priscilla gets more overall, I'm not denying this, but the amount she gets you when put up against the amount Ninian/Nils gets you plus all the other additional benefits Ninian/Nils bring put them over her fo sho.

More EXP+Meh Combat+Staves<Good EXP+Better durability+Rings+Refreshing

[Colonel M]

Hm... so say I bought your argument for a minute here. What about Serra? Since she also draws from the same pool as Priscilla and Ninian and Nils is unique, wouldn't one logically think if Ninian / Nils > Priscilla is possible that Ninian / Nils > Serra is also possible? Many of the arguments being used against Priscilla is practically applied to Serra as well (minus one little factor of her being a bit overleveled).

[frat_tastic]

I dunno. There's certainly an argument to be made, but whereas Priscilla's combat is rather meh, Serra's better combat while she's promoted before a lot of your other units are plus her better durability don't make it exactly the same situation.

Personally I would say yes, Ninils>Serra, but I feel there is certainly more of an argument for Serra>Ninils than Priscilla>Ninils.

[Colonel M]

I dunno. There's certainly an argument to be made, but whereas Priscilla's combat is rather meh, Serra's better combat while she's promoted before a lot of your other units are plus her better durability don't make it exactly the same situation.

Personally I would say yes, Ninils>Serra, but I feel there is certainly more of an argument for Serra>Ninils than Priscilla>Ninils.

You could argue there's a few less disadvantages that Serra has in comparison to Priscilla, but the results would be about similar anyway.

I think before I really step a major footing on this, I do want to see what someone has an estimation as to where Priscilla is at 20/1 without seriously sandbagging her before I think about the claim against her.

[frat_tastic]

Well I just promoted Priscilla in a ranked run on Pale Flower of Darkness (CH. 27) the other day. So that's where I'd call it at least. And that was with typical use (healing whenever possible, torch/barrier use, blah blah blah)

[Colonel M]

Hm, can anyone else (dondon, Balc, anyone else who's played this recently) also clarify when you promoted Priscilla? I guess where you promoted other units also help in some way.

I'll take note of that for now frat.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Colonel M

[frat_tastic]

Serra promoted at CH. 22, Erk at the beginning of 24, Raven in the middle of 24, Kent in the middle of 25. Rest are all prepromos/Ninian/shuffled in and out for EXP rank.

[Colonel M]

Serra promoted at CH. 22, Erk at the beginning of 24, Raven in the middle of 24, Kent in the middle of 25. Rest are all prepromos/Ninian/shuffled in and out for EXP rank.

This also helps a lot. Thanks.

Shuts down Inui's 20/1 @ Dragons Gate for sure.

[frat_tastic]

I mean it's possible I guess, but I think you'd really have to be TRYING to get Serra promoted by then. I'd rather not expend the effort. Besides, she gets less EXP if she promotes then since she's fighting lower level enemies, I'd rather wait a couple chapters and squeeze a little more EXP out of her from fighting higher level shit.

[Colonel M]

I mean it's possible I guess, but I think you'd really have to be TRYING to get Serra promoted by then. I'd rather not expend the effort. Besides, she gets less EXP if she promotes then since she's fighting lower level enemies, I'd rather wait a couple chapters and squeeze a little more EXP out of her from fighting higher level shit.

Exactly my point. No use breaking your back over something not completely necessary.

[Inui]

Shuts down Inui's 20/1 @ Dragons Gate for sure.

Nope. Our wonderful Reikky-chan posted a very detailed account of how to get Serra to level 12 in LHM. Serra will easily promote during Chapter 20 if you do that. :)

I had Priscilla promote at 20/0 in Crazed Beast, Chapter 25.

[Life]

I'm still not buying Ninils > Prissy based on availability after considering all the other factors.

Ninian joins in New Resolve and is usable until the end of CoD (11 chapters). Then Nils gets free spots in VoD and Light while he probably doesn't get fielded in VoL (extra fighter is better for more Exp padding as 2 20/1 guys get more Exp than 1 20/1 guy who will level up quicker from going twice). That's 13 chapters total. Prissy joins in the middle of False Friends and can possibly be fielded for 27 chapters. That's more than double Ninils' amount of chapters. To say that Prissy is destroying Ninils in availability is an understatement.

You can't forget this fact at all.

[Inui]

The chapters Priscilla is in before Ninian joins are much smaller than the ones Nils is around for. Thinking that being there for Talons Alight is like being there for Cog of Destiny, Sands of Time, or Victory or Death is absurd. Priscilla doesn't have more than double Ninian's availability when you consider chapter lengths.

[Life]

The chapters Priscilla is in before Ninian joins are much smaller than the ones Nils is around for. Thinking that being there for Talons Alight is like being there for Cog of Destiny, Sands of Time, or Victory or Death is absurd. Priscilla doesn't have more than double Ninian's availability when you consider chapter lengths.

Nils isn't there for Sands of Time. He joins in Victory or Death while Ninian leaves after Cog of Destiny.

It still doesn't negate the fact of Prissy's importance in chapters like Talons Alight (she's running from side to side healing, faster than Serra can), Whereabouts Unknown (not talking about recruiting Raven, it's more her ability to keep up with the 3 cavs + Marcus) Pirate Ship (same thing) and Sands of Time (do I even need to state why and Nils doesn't exist here) plus her other contributions gives her an overall edge over what Ninils does for the team during the time that the pair exists. Or at least in my opinion.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Florete]

Nope. Our wonderful Reikky-chan posted a very detailed account of how to get Serra to level 12 in LHM. Serra will easily promote during Chapter 20 if you do that. :)

Where? All I saw was some quick notes on his LHM playthrough that didn't even always mention what he did with Serra. Most test results I've been seeing (including my own) get her to level 9.

[Inui]

My bad. He's not there for SoT indeed. Ninian's around in some huge stuff that's hard/important/etc.

Priscilla can't do that much in Talons Alight and the Pirate Ship. She's gayed by enemies limiting her mobility due to her bottom tier durability. I just played Talons Alight and she had to stay back for three turns and do nothing due to those initial enemies and then those Archers coming up. Pirate Ship has Pegs flying in at you and a bunch of initial enemies.

I don't care enough to really debate it. I'm sure CATS can prove it.

[frat_tastic]

Sure, Priscilla's got availability on Ninils, but I don't think it's enough to put her ahead of them. Just because she's there longer doesn't necessarily mean she's better than they are.

First, Priscilla has Serra to compete with. While this certainly doesn't make Priscilla bad (2 healers is just fine), it certainly cuts down on the actual utility of healing and staff-wielding. She helps the EXP rank plenty regardless, but the actual, practical use you get out of using staves is diminished because she has someone else also running around doing the same job as her.

Ninils has no such competition. The extra things they bring, like refreshing units and ring usage, can be done by no one else, and they will be making full use out of these.

Another thing to consider is that when you use Ninils you are probably getting more out of using them each turn than Priscilla (or Serra for that matter). Sometimes Priscilla is arbitrarily using staves just to get EXP. More often than this, Ninils are both getting EXP and serving an actual purpose (most likely helping with Tactics, but possibly ring usage as well). I guess this part is a very minor thing though.

So taking all things into account, I'd still call them better. Yes, Priscilla is available more than Ninils. However her actual usage while she's available is, IMO, less useful than what Ninils does while they're there.

[Inui]

I notice that the Experience rank and availability are like...suuuuuuuuper important over here, while Tactics and how good someone is when they are around is cared about more at FEFF.

If only there was more of a balance.