FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[frat_tastic]

Well I guess I might have been wrong about Merlinus and his EXP contributions. Although, can anyone prove that he doesn't contribute to it or provide some kind of source?

Anyway, if we say that his EXP contributions don't count for anything, than I'd still say his aiding with the Funds rank outweighs the negatives in Tactics and Combat, and should sit in the bottom of Upper Mid then.

[Inui]

If I had to choose between Merlinus and <insert any unit>, I'd pick Merlinus.

But I don't have to choose. He doesn't take a deployment slot.

But you get my point. What would you rather do, beat the game without Raven or without Merlinus?

[frat_tastic]

Eh, that line of thinking starts to go into the area of the new FE9 Tier List, which I'm not too fond of.

Obviously Merlinus makes the game more convenient for you, but I'd say Raven probably adds more in the way of ranks than Merlinus does. Since we're looking at how a unit contributes towards S-Ranking, I'd say Raven is still more helpful to that goal, even if I'd miss Merlinus's ability more.

I'm probably not who should be answering this anyway. I personally believe Merlinus is just about as imperative to S-Ranking funds easily as Matthew is, so I think he should go up, but right now I'm more concerned with seeing him on the tier list in a favorable position. I don't know that I'd call him top either way, but High or the higher part of upper mid seems good (since he lacks combat, dragging him down some from someone like Matthew).

[Inui]

I also find him as good as Matthew for Funds, since Silver Card abuse doesn't really exist without him.

[Mekkah]

If I had to choose between Merlinus and <insert any unit>, I'd pick Merlinus.

I'd take people like Marcus and Raven over Merlinus tbh. Upper Mids I'd ditch for him though.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Here we go again.

You were already told to stop posting these outside of FFTF.

[dondon151]

Well I guess I might have been wrong about Merlinus and his EXP contributions. Although, can anyone prove that he doesn't contribute to it or provide some kind of source?

The log is gone, but I failed to S-rank HHM on my first attempt due to not meeting the EXP rank. If Merlinus's EXP had counted, I would have not failed.

[Interceptor]

Obviously he's closer to being an object than any other PC, but I'd still consider him closer to being a character than not, and likening him to a terrain tile seems like a pretty weak argument.

What insult is this? Likening Merlinus to a terrain tile? Unbelievable. Your misrepresentation of my argument is clearly intended to draw attention from the real issue at hand, and I call upon all men and women of reason to publicly denounce your nakedly misleading accusation. Have you no decency, sir?

Nay, I am comparing terrain tiles to the units already tiered on this list. What's good enough for Merlinus, ought to be good enough for Gate, Wall, and -- dare I say it -- even Stairs. Terrain tiles are ULEs, Unit-Like Entities, just like Merlinus, and I demand that they be given the proper treatment on the tier list if he is to be. Merlinus has stats, and gives supports? Pah. Compare that to the +2DEF, +20AVO, and 20% healing afforded to you by a Fort.

And if I may point out the elephant in the room, here, let us not forget the mighty Arena. Don't be fooled by its modest +10 AVO bonus! The real benefit of this ULE is to provide the army with a supply of enemies and gold, for EXP and Funds ranking. Now, one could argue that the Arena doesn't deliver without a unit to use it, but I'd argue that the EXP/Gold doesn't exist without the Arena. We would appear to be stuck in a chicken/egg situation, except it's clear that your army has many units that can fight, but Arena is limited, suggesting that Arena owns the lion's share of the credit in this situation.

The conclusion here is obvious and irrefutable: the equal treatment for all ULEs is the only correct decision, as demanded by the morals of modern society.

[Reikken]

If terrain tiles appeared on the unit list and followed you from chapter to chapter, and could be attacked and killed like other units, and even promoted, gaining the ability to move around, I would propose they be tiered as well.

[CATS]

Merlinus has stats, and gives supports? Pah. Compare that to the +2DEF, +20AVO, and 20% healing afforded to you by a Fort.

Fort does not have a Str, Skl or Res score and does not have support convos.

[Interceptor]

If terrain tiles appeared on the unit list and followed you from chapter to chapter, and could be attacked and killed like other units, and even promoted, gaining the ability to move around, I would propose they be tiered as well.

The insults to humanity continue, unabated. Is there no end to this blatant hypocrisy? Any child could see that all you have done here is set the bar for inclusion to precisely what Merlinus is capable of. Your arbitrary standard is nothing but discrimination under the guise of reasonableness.

Well, I for one, am not fooled. Merlinus is a ULE just like any number of terrain tiles, and tiering of one ULE demands tiering of the rest.

[Interceptor]

Fort does not have a Str, Skl or Res score and does not have support convos.

Any fool can create a set of criteria specific enough to exclude the units that he wishes to discriminate against. Perhaps I choose to only consider something a unit if it can use an item. Maybe you need to be able to attack, and Dancers/Healers get the boot. Suppose that only people with an Anima affinity count, farewell Hector.

There are only two differences between my hypothetical positions and yours. First, location: the specific placement of the arbitrary line. Second, honesty: acknowledgement that the location is indeed arbitrary.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Interceptor

[Reikken]

The only difference between Merlinus and other units is his deployment. Terrain tiles, however, have a very large number of differences, with about the only similarities being that they are in the same game.

The third difference in the hypothetical situations is that his/mine makes sense.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

Merlinus's levels do not count to EXP rank. He doesn't have a value assigned to his EXP, ever.

This just adds insult to the injury.

It isn't a matter of "would I use this unit or Merlinus?" Then we revert to that incomplete FE9 List. It's a matter of "can you seriously provide an argument as to something... say... Merlinus > Rebecca", for example.

Oh and quit banning discussion. Really, its stupid to try and stifle discussion on something because you "don't like it", or it "makes things hard to discuss". If this line of thinking keeps continuing, SF is going to end up with a bunch of FE7 Tier Lists, and then discussion will thin in each topic and then most likely die, so get over yourself plox.

Well then, allow me to ask you a very serious question: where have we actually gone with this Merlinus discussion? Seems nothing more but a cat and mouse game, aka a waste of our time. But... if you seriously want to keep discussing it, then fine. Do so at your own risk.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Colonel M

[Interceptor]

The only difference between Merlinus and other units is his deployment. Terrain tiles, however, have a very large number of differences, with about the only similarities being that they are in the same game.

You have changed instruments, but you are still playing the Ballad of Bigotry. Once again, you're willing to accept X differences, but not X + N differences. There is no explanation for this disparity, other than deliberate unequal treatment of ULEs.

The third difference in the hypothetical situations is that his/mine makes sense.

What doesn't make sense about my hypothetical situations? Besides, sense is a matter of perspective. Does it make sense that the mighty Arena is not properly represented on the list? Truly, the contributions that it makes towards S-rank, as compared to Merlinus, are a firehose next to a leaky faucet.

[CATS]

It isn't a matter of "would I use this unit or Merlinus?" Then we revert to that incomplete FE9 List. It's a matter of "can you seriously provide an argument as to something... say... Merlinus > Rebecca", for example.

A Merlinus > Rebecca argument is not difficult. Although it would require that you assume "Send to Merlinus" counts as using Merlinus first, so I guess there wouldn't be much point in discussing it until that is settled.

What doesn't make sense about my hypothetical situations?

The point is that Merlinus has much more in common with characters who are already tiered (and thus accepted as PCs) than terrain tiles do.

Edited February 26, 2010 by CATS

[Inui]

If terrain tiles appeared on the unit list and followed you from chapter to chapter, and could be attacked and killed like other units, and even promoted, gaining the ability to move around, I would propose they be tiered as well.

Fort does not have a Str, Skl or Res score and does not have support convos.

The only difference between Merlinus and other units is his deployment. Terrain tiles, however, have a very large number of differences, with about the only similarities being that they are in the same game.

The third difference in the hypothetical situations is that his/mine makes sense.

I'm way more inclined to agree with these posts than Interceptor's, and it actually has absolutely nothing to do with who posted them.

Terrain tiles don't have growth rates and support conversations, and they are not clearly player characters. That's all there is to it.

Hey, if Merlinus "dies" on the field, do you lose the "send" option at shops?

Edited February 26, 2010 by Narga_Rocks
Removed Violation

[Mekkah]

Hey, if Merlinus "dies" on the field, do you lose the "send" option at shops?

Yes. It's as if you didn't field him at all.

[CATS]

Yeah, you do. He has to be kept alive in order for you to send crap to him.

edit: ninja'd

Edited February 26, 2010 by CATS

[Reikken]

You have changed instruments, but you are still playing the Ballad of Bigotry. Once again, you're willing to accept X differences, but not X + N differences. There is no explanation for this disparity, other than deliberate unequal treatment of ULEs.

What doesn't make sense about my hypothetical situations? Besides, sense is a matter of perspective. Does it make sense that the mighty Arena is not properly represented on the list? Truly, the contributions that it makes towards S-rank, as compared to Merlinus, are a firehose next to a leaky faucet.

Oh sure, X+N differences is great, fair game. If you want to take it that far, you can. Draw the line wherever you want. Some people even cut out Hector due to him not being deselectable in unit deployment; he's forced, so why tier him?

I'm simply in favor of including as many units as makes sense. Why leave anyone out? More units makes for a more interesting list.

What makes sense is only a matter of perspective to a small degree. Even you can see that your ULE stuff makes no sense; you're just doing it for the sake of argument. They're very clearly not player units. Common sense is a large part of the difference between human thought and machines. We're all humans here. Don't act like we can't use common sense.

[Rewjeo]

Merlinus has a face. He is eventually movable. There is only one of him. He can talk.

While Int does bring up some interesting points, I'm inclined to agree with Reikken here. He is far more than a terrain tile. Also, Int's logic has some flaws. The tiles lack levels, growth rates (stats at all, actually), and individuality. You can't tier, say, fort. That would be akin to tiering myrmidons/swordmasters as one entity. You would have to tier every tile in the game. Do you realize how pointless it would be to tier every single grass tile in the game when they literally make no difference? Merlinus, on the other hand, is one unit. He has a map sprite, he's a single entity, he can enter battle, he performs a unique function, he exists for more than one chapter, he can move, you can choose whether or not he exists, he can be removed from play (AKA killed). I'd honestly tier enemy units before map tiles.

[Inui]

Okay, if Merlinus must be fielded and alive for that function, he's top tier imo.

[Don Draper]

I don't even know how to put in words how stupid tiering Merlinus is. Why exactly do you want him tiered? So you can just make the tier list way more complicated then it has to be? Do you really want to see Raven vs. Merlinus comparisons? Its a waste of time. If Merlinus was Upper Mid, its not like somebody reading the list is going to say "Guess I'm going to use High tier characters instead of Merlinus now!"

Is the "completeness" of the tier list that important to you all? Honestly.

[Mekkah]

Tier lists are just a discussion medium, not a guide for usage or anything. So if people want to tier Merlinus I guess they want to throw him into discussions. I don't find these discussions interesting, but it seems others do,

[Reikken]

This isn't a "who's best to use" tier list, or else Hector wouldn't be tiered either. It's a "who helps most with S-ranking" tier list.