FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Balcerzak]

The thing is Hector does hit the point where he's not in danger of dying at all unless you send him into a swarm of mages or something, so him dying meaning game over is a moot point anyway. On shit like CoD hes not as epic as he was midgame, but once he promotes he's back on track again.

My 20/-- Hector is getting his ass kicked in Genesis. Swarms of mages do exist. Either way this is a huge plus for Merlinus. Complete disregard for Survival rank is entirely different than very sturdy durability.

What Merlinus does as an actual unit is NOT related to what the convoy does. All Merlinus is is FEDS Marth that can't fight. He's not the convoy, he's the link between the convoy. So crediting him for the positives of the convoy is stupid.

Furthermore, you DO run out of weapons/item slots when it's not convenient, people complain about 5 not being enough all the time. Say your one handaxe ran out of uses and you had to bring along too much other crap like a reaver and a slayer weapon to bring a second handaxe. It does happen, and all Merlinus has to do is do it once to be clearly superior to a putz like Nino.

Actually no. You don't deploy Merlinus the unit, you don't have access to the convoy. FEDS Marth exists in every map regardless. FE7 Merlinus does not exist at all on maps you do not deploy him, and on two other significant maps. This is why Night of Farewells and Light Part I are rather bitchy, forcing you to explicitly leave space for all the goods you'll be getting. Merlinus' link to the Convoy is an essential part of what he is as a unit.

If you're arguing that we only tier him based on the instances when another unit stands next to him and uses the Merch command, then there's no way he's not absolute bottom of the bottom. Nino, Karla, et al. all can boast significant XP rank contributions over that, which easily leaves him in the dust when you compare it to his ~20 XP he gets over the course of the entire game from dodging stray attacks, which may or may not even be counted in the final tally, and the extremely situational, probably-only-happens-once-in-a-playthrough Merch command (which wastes at least one turn for that unit to resupply, possibly more). On an efficiency list you might have a shot of arguing him over somebody, but not so in ranks, if you're sandbagging him this way, he doesn't have a shot.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Balcerzak

[Dat Nick]

My 20/-- Hector is getting his ass kicked in Genesis. Swarms of mages do exist.

I never said they didn't. I said it's only a problem lategame, and only a problem when mages actually do exist. It's hideously easy to keep him away from mages in that map anyway.

anyway it's not sandbagging him at all but whatever you're right this argument isn't going to work on ranked.

[Inui]

If Merlinus is tiered, he's the best character.

[CATS]

Best character? I wouldn't think so. His Exp rank contribution is basically zero. His Tactics contribution is basically increasing your units' inventory, so that people don't have to leave space for loot like Bal said, but I question whether that's really helping more than top-tier combat units. Having more weapons isn't necessarily better than having a stronger unit to actually wield them.

I agree he would atleast be high tier, though.

[Anouleth]

If Merlinus is tiered, he's the best character.

Why? It's perfectly possible to work around the inventory issues with some planning and forethought. What's he going to save you at most? Maybe a turn spent trading around stuff, maybe some opportunities to load up on supplies in certain chapters, maybe a deployment slot that would otherwise have gone to a mule.

Compare to the contributions that other characters make to EXP, Tactics, and Combat, I'm not seeing how Merlinus' minor contributions to Tactics is all that great.

[Inui]

Um... You wouldn't have enough weapons to ever finish chapters or fight things and you'd find it very hard to have a high score in Funds without somewhere to toss items. How would you do Silver Card shopping without the "send to Merlinus" option? How would you shop at all without eating every unit's turn to get enough stuff? You'd have to keep your thief's inventory totally empty, too.

[Florete]

Um... You wouldn't have enough weapons to ever finish chapters or fight things and you'd find it very hard to have a high score in Funds without somewhere to toss items. How would you do Silver Card shopping without the "send to Merlinus" option? How would you shop at all without eating every unit's turn to get enough stuff? You'd have to keep your thief's inventory totally empty, too.

How can Merlinus be credited for that, something I don't have to "use" him to do? I can totally ignore the guy's existence and still get that Send option. It would be like crediting Ilyana for carting items to the Mercenaries in FE10. If we tier Merlinus, we need to tier the Convoy in FE8 as well. And I don't mean giving Eirika/Ephraim credit for it, I mean actually having another slot for "Convoy." In reality, Merlinus does almost nothing and really has zero similar traits to other units aside from a name and face. He doesn't die when he's killed (amazing, I know), he doesn't even show up on the unit list, he can't move for a long time, you can't trade directly with his inventory (so if he buys stuff you have to get it from him in the next map), he won't be building supports. He doesn't directly contribute to any of the ranks. As Anouleth said, it's not like you ever really need new weapons in the middle of a map with forethought, and if you did, Merlinus likely wouldn't be near anyway because he either isn't actually moving or he's too slow.

I really just don't find Merlinus' contribution, if it can even be called that, comparable to the other units on this list in any way.

[Inui]

If ONLY his ability to carry items on the battlefield and nothing more is counted, then sure, he's not top tier.

But you don't even get that "send" option until he joins you.

[Anouleth]

How can Merlinus be credited for that, something I don't have to "use" him to do? I can totally ignore the guy's existence and still get that Send option. It would be like crediting Ilyana for carting items to the Mercenaries in FE10. If we tier Merlinus, we need to tier the Convoy in FE8 as well. And I don't mean giving Eirika/Ephraim credit for it, I mean actually having another slot for "Convoy." In reality, Merlinus does almost nothing and really has zero similar traits to other units aside from a name and face. He doesn't die when he's killed (amazing, I know), he doesn't even show up on the unit list, he can't move for a long time, you can't trade directly with his inventory (so if he buys stuff you have to get it from him in the next map), he won't be building supports. He doesn't directly contribute to any of the ranks. As Anouleth said, it's not like you ever really need new weapons in the middle of a map with forethought, and if you did, Merlinus likely wouldn't be near anyway because he either isn't actually moving or he's too slow.

I really just don't find Merlinus' contribution, if it can even be called that, comparable to the other units on this list in any way.

Actually I was referring to the ability to send stuff to the convoy mid-battle.

I really don't think it's that big of an issue. All it means is you need to plan ahead instead of being lazy, and maybe deploy a mule on certain chest-heavy maps. Which you may want to do anyway so someone like Marcus can run around with Chest Keys and act as a Thief with better movement and Canto. It's certainly not Top Tier material, when all he does is save you a unit slot on a handful of chapters and maybe the occasional 1 or 2 turns when you want to buy lots of stuff.

And you raise an interesting question of 'does this mean Eph/Eir/Ike/Marth get credit for their Convoys'?

Edited February 24, 2010 by Anouleth

[dondon151]

I'd say that Merlinus hurts combat rank because he attracts unwanted enemies.

[Reikken]

How can Merlinus be credited for that, something I don't have to "use" him to do? I can totally ignore the guy's existence and still get that Send option.

You do indeed have to use him. You have to choose to field him, and then his passive ability (much like support bonuses granted to others; this is also a passive bonus. Would you discount that too?) activates as long as he's alive. No, you can't ignore his existence. Not only do you have to field him, but also you must keep him alive.

and...Indirect benefit is no worse than direct.

Edited February 24, 2010 by Reikken

[Florete]

You do indeed have to use him. You have to choose to field him,

Sorry, but I wouldn't call hitting "Yes" at the beginning of every map "using" him.

and then his passive ability (much like support bonuses granted to others; this is also a passive bonus. Would you discount that too?) activates as long as he's alive.

I have to use a deployment slot and move units to use support bonuses. I need to only hit "Yes" to send items to Merlinus. These are not the same.

No, you can't ignore his existence. Not only do you have to field him, but also you must keep him alive.

Most chapters you can ignore him. There are very few maps where you need to actively be sure he's safe.

and...Indirect benefit is no worse than direct.

So are you saying we should do things like credit Ilyana for carting items to the GM's, or credit Ike, Tibarn, etc. for their authority stars? It's the same idea really. It happens no matter what I do with the unit in question. Even if you felt like tiering Merlinus, how would you decide his position? Clearly there are very different ideas on what he would get credit for and how much credit he'd get. How do you compare him to everyone else when he doesn't really have an effect on the game (depending, of course, on what he gets credit for)? Even units like Ninian/Nils, who are totally unique, do something to help out that we can compare to other units. Merlinus overall does not really have the attributes of a playable unit.

And before anyone mentions the fact that he's tiered in FE6, I didn't agree with that either.

[Inui]

If Merlinus isn't given credit for carrying your items and allowing "send to Merlinus" when you shop, then Matthew getting the Silver Card shouldn't be a huge deal for him either.

[Florete]

If Merlinus isn't given credit for carrying your items and allowing "send to Merlinus" when you shop, then Matthew getting the Silver Card shouldn't be a huge deal for him either.

Like I said before, not crediting Matthew for the Silver Card results in the need to void all the Thief work he does, which doesn't make sense. Plus, I do have to actually do something with him to get the Card, including keeping him alive. I'll get Merlinus no matter what and he can't "die" either. He, as a unit, is not responsible for allowing the Send option, he's just a face and a name used for explanation.

[Don Draper]

Since we're tiering Merlinus now, lets go ahead and tier Armory and Shop as well. Oh, and how about Grass Tile? Its the exact same concept.

[CATS]

No, it isn't. Merlinus is a character.

Sorry, but I wouldn't call hitting "Yes" at the beginning of every map "using" him.

Isn't that what you do for every other non-forced unit? Input a command to place them on the map?

If your complaint is that he doesn't take a unit slot, then also take Hector off the list, since you don't even have to hit "Yes" at the start of every chapter in order for Hector to be there.

Not that I really care whether he's tiered or not, but if he were, I would disagree with this argument.

[Florete]

No, it isn't. Merlinus is a character.

So is Ana. Should we tier her for selling us cool stuff at the Secret Shop?

Isn't that what you do for every other non-forced unit? Input a command to place them on the map?

To place them on the map, yeah. To use them, no. I have to input more commands to actually use them. Merlinus just sits there.

If your complaint is that he doesn't take a unit slot, then also take Hector off the list, since you don't even have to hit "Yes" at the start of every chapter in order for Hector to be there.

That's only part of it. If he took a unit slot he'd at least have some way of being comparable since his existence would have an opportunity cost.

[Narga_Rocks]

That's only part of it. If he took a unit slot he'd at least have some way of being comparable since his existence would have an opportunity cost.

In this game, don't they count the lord when they say how many slots you have? Like, if you remove everyone but the lord (when you can) they say 1/X, with X units? Does Merlinus count towards the X?

[Florete]

In this game, don't they count the lord when they say how many slots you have? Like, if you remove everyone but the lord (when you can) they say 1/X, with X units? Does Merlinus count towards the X?

That's how they do it, and no, Merlinus isn't part of it. He isn't on the unit selection screen. You get a window when you start the chapter asking if you want to deploy Merlinus.

[frat_tastic]

Athos has no opportunity cost and he's tiered.

Also CATS, I missed your post on Karla/Renault, my bad. I thought that there was no more discussion and the OP just made the change, which I know has happened before, and something I'm not inclined to believe. Everything on your post looks fine with me though.

[CATS]

So is Ana. Should we tier her for selling us cool stuff at the Secret Shop?

Well, I suppose if we just say "character," it would theoretically include people like Lloyd. So let's clarify: Player Character.

To place them on the map, yeah. To use them, no. I have to input more commands to actually use them. Merlinus just sits there.

You certainly have to input commands for Merlinus to; the "Send to Merlinus" command. Sure, it's way simpler and easier than moving an attacker around, but I don't see how that's relevant. If being more complicated to use makes a unit better or more tier-able, that opens up the door for all sorts of weird arguments, like supports don't get used because it's simpler to just ignore them rather than trying to position your units next to each other, etc.

That's only part of it. If he took a unit slot he'd at least have some way of being comparable since his existence would have an opportunity cost.

So you think Hector has an opportunity cost.

I also don't see how the lack of an opportunity cost prevents a character from being tiered. You can still clearly define what Merlinus's contributions towards S Rank are.

[Florete]

Well, I suppose if we just say "character," it would theoretically include people like Lloyd. So let's clarify: Player Character.

And then the question comes: How do we define that? All blue units? Because that's just about the only thing you can say that puts Merlinus in the same boat.

You certainly have to input commands for Merlinus to; the "Send to Merlinus" command.

That's not using Merlinus, or at least not in the same way. I'm getting that option no matter what I do (as long as I choose "Yes," of course) whereas with a unit like Matthew, I have to send that specific unit to that specific spot, and depending on what he's doing, I may need to have had him do things previously (leveling, etc.).

In fact, sending to Merlinus is not Merlinus doing anything at all, it's the sender. The sender is either the shop/armory owner (tier them pl0x) or whoever picked up the item.

If being more complicated to use makes a unit better or more tier-able, that opens up the door for all sorts of weird arguments, like supports don't get used because it's simpler to just ignore them rather than trying to position your units next to each other, etc.

I don't get how this is in any way similar.

Athos has no opportunity cost and he's tiered.

So you think Hector has an opportunity cost.

Both do. Not a unit slot obviously, but the experience they get (or don't) when actually being used that no one else gets, as well as weapons. It can no doubt be for the better, but it is still a cost.

I also don't see how the lack of an opportunity cost prevents a character from being tiered. You can still clearly define what Merlinus's contributions towards S Rank are.

Oh? And what is it? I've seen different ideas among even the people who think he should be tiered.

[K3Nyy]

He should be tiered. He's a playable character with a position on the map and when he promotes, you can move him around also. You can also just as easily select no instead of yes in the beginning of the chapter and see a difference. How does that not constitute him a position on the list?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Ephraim/Eirika should totally get more credit for the supply convoy since they're able to move the second you get it and don't take up an additional slot like Merlinus of FE6. Never mind the fact that they can pick up and use any item they want at just about any time so there's no opportunity cost for that too.

That was sarcasm for those who didn't realize it right away...

Anyway, regarding Merlinus, the guy's just a failed experiment, an old feature they attempted to turn into a character in FE6 that took up a unit slot and then another attempt in FE7 with the biggest mistake removed. Why tier a feature? I thought this is where you tier characters and as for what a character should be defined as:

In this game, don't they count the lord when they say how many slots you have? Like, if you remove everyone but the lord (when you can) they say 1/X, with X units? Does Merlinus count towards the X?

The bolded. The Pick Unit/Deployment screen is all you need to see who should be considered a character for tier purposes. Plain and simple, don't make things more complicated than they have to be.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Speedwagon

[Dat Nick]

I still think this creates a double standard as far as the "not being able to be compared to other units" goes *coughDancersCOUGH*, I mean, as long as Int doesn't want Dancers being tiered for this same reason...

Although the "not in the unit screen" logic is very weak on it's own. It'd be the exact same thing if you had one more unit slot in the chapter and his name was greeened every time.