FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[Mekkah]

It'd be the exact same thing if you had one more unit slot in the chapter and his name was greeened every time.

No, because then you would not be able to refuse the option to field him. :o

Tiering Merlinus is not about interesting discussions and comparisons. It's about claiming the line between "a unit" and "not a unit" or "positive contribution" and "negative contribution" is where you want it to be, and bring up exceptions and loopholes in cases that aren't yours. It's not really something you can actually reasonably argue about, because everyone's view on it is personal and there's no way to disprove the other's convictions.

Though just to be a "troublemaker" I guess:

Look, he's a unit!

[CATS]

And then the question comes: How do we define that? All blue units? Because that's just about the only thing you can say that puts Merlinus in the same boat.

Indeed. It's true that Merlinus is way different from other units, but he is obviously included under the category "Player Characters" by this definition.

That's not using Merlinus, or at least not in the same way. I'm getting that option no matter what I do (as long as I choose "Yes," of course) whereas with a unit like Matthew, I have to send that specific unit to that specific spot, and depending on what he's doing, I may need to have had him do things previously (leveling, etc.).

What do you mean, you get that option no matter what, as long as you choose the option that results in giving you said option? That's like saying that the option to use Ninis's Grace will always be there no matter what you do (as long as you choose to field Ninian, of course).

In fact, sending to Merlinus is not Merlinus doing anything at all, it's the sender. The sender is either the shop/armory owner (tier them pl0x) or whoever picked up the item.

The key fact here is that it requires Merlinus to be on the field. The team that uses Merlinus has this option, while the team that doesn't field him does not have this option; hence we can see that using Merlinus directly results in the benefit of being able to send stuff to him.

I don't get how this is in any way similar.

I could probably explain it better if I was sure exactly what your point was. As it stands, I don't really see how "Send to Merlinus" doesn't qualify as using him.

Both do. Not a unit slot obviously, but the experience they get (or don't) when actually being used that no one else gets, as well as weapons. It can no doubt be for the better, but it is still a cost.

I meant unit slot, ofcourse, since that's by far the most significant cost associated with using someone. In the terms you're thinking of, Merlinus also has an opportunity cost: The potential to attract enemies to his location on some chapters. His getting attacked results in hurting the Combat rank, and hurting your ability to kill those enemies in general, since he doesn't counter it's the same as the enemies getting to attack a healer or an archer at melee.

Oh? And what is it? I've seen different ideas among even the people who think he should be tiered.

You might disagree on exactly what his contributions are, but that's irrelevant to the fact that his contributions can be defined. It is clearly possible to determine something along the lines of "the benefit provided by the options of being able to send extra items to Merlinus, and being able to access the convoy mid-battle" and debate where he would go on the list based on that.

Tiering Merlinus is not about interesting discussions and comparisons. It's about claiming the line between "a unit" and "not a unit" or "positive contribution" and "negative contribution" is where you want it to be, and bring up exceptions and loopholes in cases that aren't yours. It's not really something you can actually reasonably argue about, because everyone's view on it is personal and there's no way to disprove the other's convictions.

Not true. If people all agreed that he was a unit, that he should be tiered, and then agreed on exactly what his contributions consist of, it would obviously be possible to then discuss and debate how much those contributions are worth. Maybe it's not something you can reasonably argue about while there's people who think he isn't even a unit (although I disagree with this too), but relevant discussion about his position on the list would definitely be possible if people wanted to actually discuss that instead of arguing that he shouldn't be listed at all.

[Dat Nick]

No, because then you would not be able to refuse the option to field him.

You never would, anyway. Can you think of one single reason NOT to deploy Merlinus on every map?

The difference between FE6 Merlinus and FE7 Merlinus is that one takes a unit slot and can move for all of the game and has 200 item slots while the other one doesn't take a unit slot and can't move until like Battle Before Dawn and has 100 item slots. This doesn't qualify one as being tiered and one not being tiered. The original intent was to follow up with Int's "fuck dancers" shit, but I'm fine with just taking Merlinus off the FE6 list.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Fred Fuchs

[Florete]

What do you mean, you get that option no matter what, as long as you choose the option that results in giving you said option? That's like saying that the option to use Ninis's Grace will always be there no matter what you do (as long as you choose to field Ninian, of course).

What's not to get? That window will come up no matter what I do in the rest of the game (if I skip 13x it just comes a few maps later) and I don't think there's any reason not to say "Yes" to it. Once again, I don't see how the thing with Ninian you're pulling here is similar, since you have to both choose to field Ninian over someone else and use that ring instead of another or Dancing.

The key fact here is that it requires Merlinus to be on the field. The team that uses Merlinus has this option, while the team that doesn't field him does not have this option;

And see, that's the problem. What team "doesn't have" Merlinus? It's like saying one team never visits shops. What's the point?

I could probably explain it better if I was sure exactly what your point was. As it stands, I don't really see how "Send to Merlinus" doesn't qualify as using him.

Because I should always be getting that option.

At this point, I'm wondering: If the window didn't show up and Merlinus was just automatically fielded, would you still argue for him to be tiered? It feels like most of your argument is hinging on the fact that you don't have to deploy him. After all, if it didn't show up, I could say you would always get that option instead of should, and then there'd definitely be no way to credit him for it. If that's the case, tiering him just for that feels pointless.

I meant unit slot, ofcourse, since that's by far the most significant cost associated with using someone. In the terms you're thinking of, Merlinus also has an opportunity cost: The potential to attract enemies to his location on some chapters. His getting attacked results in hurting the Combat rank, and hurting your ability to kill those enemies in general, since he doesn't counter it's the same as the enemies getting to attack a healer or an archer at melee.

True enough, and I think I mentioned that in passing earlier. It is fairly rare, though, and it should never prevent you from fielding him.

You might disagree on exactly what his contributions are, but that's irrelevant to the fact that his contributions can be defined. It is clearly possible to determine something along the lines of "the benefit provided by the options of being able to send extra items to Merlinus, and being able to access the convoy mid-battle" and debate where he would go on the list based on that.

I guess you can, it just feels like unnecessarily adding more complications to the list, since what he "does" (however you define that) is totally different than what anyone else does. Even Ninian's contributions can quite easily be summed up with our intended goals.

Not true. If people all agreed that he was a unit, that he should be tiered, and then agreed on exactly what his contributions consist of, it would obviously be possible to then discuss and debate how much those contributions are worth. Maybe it's not something you can reasonably argue about while there's people who think he isn't even a unit (although I disagree with this too), but relevant discussion about his position on the list would definitely be possible if people wanted to actually discuss that instead of arguing that he shouldn't be listed at all.

At this point I think I'd be fine with tiering him (I still disagree with it, but w/e, it's not like it'll kill discussion for me or anything) as long as what he gets credit for is consistent. He definitely can't be credited with holding your items, that should be self-explanatory. I don't think he should be credited for the Send option for reasons above. Trading mid-battle is about all that's left, and that's almost worthless until he can move, and even then it isn't worth much. I can't see him any higher than Low Mid, and only because he doesn't take a unit slot.

Also throwing in that I'm tired with this argument now and won't likely continue it no matter what the result is. It's not your fault or anything, I just tend to get tired of this game's discussion fast fsr.

You never would, anyway. Can you think of one single reason NOT to deploy Merlinus on every map?

The difference between FE6 Merlinus and FE7 Merlinus is that one takes a unit slot and can move for all of the game and has 200 item slots while the other one doesn't take a unit slot and can't move until like Battle Before Dawn and has 100 item slots. This doesn't qualify one as being tiered and one not being tiered. The original intent was to follow up with Int's "fuck dancers" shit, but I'm fine with just taking Merlinus off the FE6 list.

I didn't agree with tiering FE6 Merlinus in the first place.

[Colonel M]

I fucking hate Merlinus. Can we please not... tier him? For the sake of my health!?!

[CATS]

What's not to get? That window will come up no matter what I do in the rest of the game (if I skip 13x it just comes a few maps later) and I don't think there's any reason not to say "Yes" to it. Once again, I don't see how the thing with Ninian you're pulling here is similar, since you have to both choose to field Ninian over someone else and use that ring instead of another or Dancing.

Yes, his opportunity cost is less than that of someone like Ninian. Why is this relevant to the fact that you must choose to use him?

And see, that's the problem. What team "doesn't have" Merlinus? It's like saying one team never visits shops. What's the point?

What team doesn't have Hector, Athos or Raven?

Because I should always be getting that option.

What? That's like saying the Wolf Beil should have infinite uses. What "should be" is irrelevant to what the conditions of the game actually are.

At this point, I'm wondering: If the window didn't show up and Merlinus was just automatically fielded, would you still argue for him to be tiered? It feels like most of your argument is hinging on the fact that you don't have to deploy him. After all, if it didn't show up, I could say you would always get that option instead of should, and then there'd definitely be no way to credit him for it. If that's the case, tiering him just for that feels pointless.

1. Again, I don't really care whether he's tiered or not, I just disagree with the arguments you're using to say that he shouldn't be.

2. Yes, even if he was forced, he could still be tiered. Hector is tiered, correct?

3. You still have to keep him alive to have the "Send to Merlinus" option.

True enough, and I think I mentioned that in passing earlier. It is fairly rare, though, and it should never prevent you from fielding him.

Certainly not. Likewise, the opportunity cost of fielding Ninian should never prevent you from fielding her while she is available.

[Colonel M]

Sorry bblader, I'm just not going to buy Merlinus in a tier list. Will also scratch him out from FE6 If you have a problem with it... guess take it up with me.

[Inui]

You never would, anyway. Can you think of one single reason NOT to deploy Merlinus on every map?

The difference between FE6 Merlinus and FE7 Merlinus is that one takes a unit slot and can move for all of the game and has 200 item slots while the other one doesn't take a unit slot and can't move until like Battle Before Dawn and has 100 item slots. This doesn't qualify one as being tiered and one not being tiered. The original intent was to follow up with Int's "fuck dancers" shit, but I'm fine with just taking Merlinus off the FE6 list.

It's 100 in both games and he promotes in Chapter 26 if you never let him die as a tent.

I fucking hate Merlinus. Can we please not... tier him? For the sake of my health!?!

But...he's a unit. Have you read CATS' posts?

[Colonel M]

I don't care if he's a unit or not. It's fucking pointless to even discuss it.

[Inui]

I don't care if he's a unit or not. It's fucking pointless to even discuss it.

Are we digressing to our behavior a week ago already? =/

How sad.

[Rodykitty]

It'll either have to be:

1. Not tier Merlinus, and avoid the issue altogether (not going to happen since many want him to be tiered)

2. Tier Merlinus, and accept the fact that he's most likely going to sit near the bottom, and have long, heated debates about Renault vs. him.

[Anouleth]

... Why does it even matter so much if he's on the list or not?

He's a pain to try and accurately tier anyway, I wouldn't bother.

[Colonel M]

Are we digressing to our behavior a week ago already? =/

How sad.

Heh, still clueless as usual.

But fine, I'll give you the assignment since you seem so confident. You find a unit that you can actually make an argument with Merlinus going over them not named the bottom tier shitholes... and I'll consider it.

Edited February 25, 2010 by Colonel M

[Inui]

Unfortunately, it appears you truly are digressing to your tyrant methods of last week or so. "I'm not convinced, and I am God of the tier list and you're clueless n00bs, so fuck you! Discussion on this issue is BANNED and I won't listen to it!" Real mature, buddy.

Instead, I suggest we be adults. If we are tiering Matthew's thief contributions and Ninian's dancer contributions, then what is the difficulty in tiering Merlinus's merchant contributions?

Tactics: Allows you to swap weapons on the battlefield to improve your combat ability to proceed faster. Saves many unit turns by allowing the "send" function, meaning you don't need to visit the shop with everyone, and this function does NOT exist without Merlinus on the field IIRC, meaning it is something Merlinus does.

Funds: Holds 100 items for you and allows Silver Card abuse. Getting a perfect score in Funds wouldn't be easy or even possible without Merlinus, since Silver Card abuse would essentially not exist and you'd have to drop items on the battlefield when you get new ones all the time.

Survival: Only unit that can die without it counting against the rank!

Experience: His contribution is 0, and that counts against him, but his contributions in other areas are really h4x. We tiered Athos, didn't we?

I propose Merlinus be tiered into top tier. If we're not going to tier him because we're too dumb to compare merchant abilities to combat abilities, then thieves should only be tiered based on combat and Ninian should be off the list.

[Rodykitty]

Survival: Only unit that can die without it counting against the rank!

I am going to argue against this specific point.

Any unit that's benched are units that cannot die. This is why being good for a short time is considered a positive, even if they are not doing well after their good period of time.

[Inui]

Haha, indeed.

Oh, btw, Merlinus's contribution to the Experience rank isn't 0. He takes no EXP to level up and doesn't take any EXP from anyone ever. He competes with nobody, not even healers, for EXP. Everyone else is free to fight and use staves while he doesn't need to at all.

[Rodykitty]

My personal solution to any unit that has properties that are difficult to tier is to default them to the middle of the tier list, in-between units that are a positive and units that are more of a negative overall than positive.

This was done to Thieves and FEDS' Chainey & Balistians before. I don't see why such an approach wouldn't work for Merlinus.

This doesn't mean mid-tier, since there may be a majority of units that are a positive. Right around where Athos is would be fine since characters like Athos are the kind of characters I default to in-between the road as well.

[Inui]

But why do that? Just because it's hard to tier him?

If my choice was to have Merlinus on the team or any other unit...I'd pick Merlinus.

[Rodykitty]

But why do that? Just because it's hard to tier him?

Well, yes. Nobody is going to agree to auto-top Merlinus, you know that.

The reasoning is that we can only measure some units' performance by "being a positive", rather than being better at combat or healing than some other unit. This way, we acknowledge a unit is either neutral or positive, and can climb from there until it's decided that his positive contributions are not better than the unit above.

[Florete]

Haha, indeed.

Oh, btw, Merlinus's contribution to the Experience rank isn't 0. He takes no EXP to level up and doesn't take any EXP from anyone ever. He competes with nobody, not even healers, for EXP. Everyone else is free to fight and use staves while he doesn't need to at all.

Nice observation, but what is the point? His Experience contribution is neutral. He gains nothing and he takes nothing. He is neither a net positive nor a net negative. If anything, this just supports FE3' Player's suggestion to have him in Mid. His effect on Tactics, Survival, and Combat are pretty similar. Funds is the only one he has a real effect on, and only for sending items to him, not for holding them.

[Rodykitty]

If anything, this just supports FE3' Player's suggestion to have him in Mid.

I want to clarify that I do not mean mid tier (this tier list doesn't even have a Mid tier), but starting just above units that are more of a negative than positive (which may not necessarily be in Mid Tier).

[Inui]

Merlinus doesn't have negatives, and has to hold the items along with the "send" function. Even if you can have random benched units hold the items, he still has the hold them until then.

[Rodykitty]

I'm doing my best to imply that Merlinus is not a negative unit.

[Inui]

Indeed, but even Raven has negatives. Do they need to be explained?

[Rodykitty]

Do you think Raven's negatives outweigh his positives?

You'll say no.

I'm saying Merlinus can be above units whose negatives outweigh the positives.