FE7 HHM Ranked Tier List

[frat_tastic]

A couple things.

Provide some numbers on what exactly Marcus is doing in the early chapters to save so many turns. Shit like "he's awesome at combat so he kills everything real easy!" won't cut it. I'm not saying that he CANT shave off a significant amount of turns, I'd just like some proof as to how he goes about doing it.

Secondly. All this bullshit about the "skill" of debaters? Gimme a break. A fucking retarded second grader could come up with any of the same shit we do. There's like a clear cut line of people who "get it" and those who "don't get it" when it comes to fire emblem debates, and anyone here arguing on the tier list gets it. The people who don't are the "OMG MAI NINO TURNED OUT AWSUM WHY SHE BOTUM TIER LULZ!?!". One of the real only differences I see is access to data. Some people have a lot more enemy stats and shit that other people don't have, which can hardly be held against those who don't have it. Fortunately, we have a lot of stuff here.

I doubt it's all "he's stubborn!" or "he's ignoring me baawww!". People buy into some shit and dont buy into other shit. People aren't buying into the arguments about Farina and funds, people are buying into Vaida being worse than Jaffar. Whatever. Get over it. This goes for all the other arguments people have been bitching about.

/soapbox

[Life]

You did the same thing. You picked one itty bitty thing, OUT OF CONTEXT, as if it mattered, and TOTALLY IGNORED THE LARGER PARAGRAPH POSTED BEFORE IT THAT ALREADY ADDRESSED FUNDS.

And then, in typical SF fashion, you troll/flame instead of debate.

I ain't a regular here (I might be after all this time, though). But hell, let's debate. You, me, properly.

I'd factor the Brave Sword into that as well. It's much better than Karel's sword. Also, Harken's performance is rly, rly good. I think you're underrating it. He's a free, RNG-proof unit that doesn't need supports to just be fielded and instantly be awesome. I guess he's not top tier, but his raw stats at that time kinda are.

I really don't think it's fair to credit Harken for the Brave Sword or bash Karel for the Wo Dao. If we were doing this, both Louise and Lyn would be getting credit for joining with a White Gem in their pockets.

As for Harken, yes he's great and all being RNG proof, but he doesn't bring anything to the table that anyone else can't. Raven almost always gets used (better than Harken) but without even considering Raven's performance, Harken still loses AS from a Hand Axe (I'll give him credit, he loses much less than Raven) and can't properly 1-2 range against sword users (even someone like Geitz has this solved with bows). He's a really solid unit but he's not around long enough and good enough to be considered "irreplacable".

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[-Cynthia-]

And then, in typical SF fashion, you troll/flame instead of debate.

Maybe you should think about what you're doing to elicit this response. If you would spend less of your posts alternating between fangirling various people (protip: no one actually cares about your opinion of them, no matter how much you think of yourself) and saying how much SF sucks instead of actual tier debating, people would be willing to listen to you more.

You also should accept that the change will not always be made. You are not always correct (is it even possible to be truly correct on a tier list?), and as such should be willing to drop arguments when you have to.

Edited February 18, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Inui]

I have worked a miracle, you finally admit it! *does a jig*

From the very beginning, I have said Farina sucks. The best I said is that with some effort and spending cash, she turns into a statistically strong unit, and certainly exceeds Jaffar and Karel (who I also believe to be downright horrible) in combat when actually used.

Farina is bad. She is just not the 4th worst unit in the entire or as bad as Renault/Wallace/Karla.

Now I suppose I should say this, no other sucky character kills 1 rank and attempts to murder another (in the form of waiting in a 0 turn requirement map). Wallace sort of hurts EXP, Karla makes you do something stupid with a hero crest, but neither of them kill 2 ranks at once.

Wallace doesn't hurt EXP if he comes back as a Knight. Farina adds 2-3 turns at MOST to Crazed Beast, which doesn't kill Tactics at all, and she can make up for it by being good eventually, especially in CoD and VoD. As for Funds, please please please stop saying it as if it's an absolute. The evidence presented by me and someone else should at LEAST make you doubt yourself on the Funds thing and look at things from another perspective. Stop being so stubborn. You can't learn anything from debates if you're never willing to concede a point or to rethink things.

You mean your bawing, yeah, great evidence.

I'll take Karla hurting one person (Raven's hero crest), Wallace hurting two people (Lyn and Eliwood's exp contributions sorta (they just have to be below a certain level, you can still get them to level 20 without much trouble)) and Renault being redundant over Farina's fail harming 3 characters (whoever, just by killing your funds, as Dondon shown, and you have yet to counter with anything other than your whining) and 2 ranks (funds, tactics).

"According to things Reaver and Solid told me, each unit on a team of ~15 has a cost allowance of ~30,000 Gold. Any prepromoted unit you field adds 10,000 Gold to what your team can use. If you field Marcus, Harken, Pent, and Geitz, that's already 40,000 Gold extra donated for the team. A unit consuming more than 20,000 Gold in weapons is absurd. To put that in perspective, that is slightly over 333 uses of a Silver Lance. Assuming only two-shots instead of one-shots, that kills a little over 166 enemies. Can you even imagine any unit costing that much in terms of weaponry? Of course not. That is insane. Prepromoted units and units that don't consume tons of resources donate massive reserves of cash to be used elsewhere.

Why is it that Farina's recruitment cost is considered so bad when you're swimming in cash like that? Her cost is negated by fielding a few prepromoted units. It's negated just by the Silver Card. The Silver Card let's you spend 600 Gold on a Silver Lance. It sits in your inventory as 1,200 Gold. What if you do this with an Ocean Seal in a Secret Shop? A Fell Contract? It adds 25,000 Gold each time. I recall money being dumped on you plenty of times, like an early 5,000, 30,000 from Ostia's treasury, and other stuff like that. You can take that money and double it all with the Silver Card, which is really crazy. Tons of units come with items that add to your value, including Gems and stuff like that.

Let's look at something simple. Let's get the S rank weapons in the final chapter and just not use them, since there is absolutely no need at all. You only need the Lords' weapons and Athos/Canas to kill the dragon. Rienfleche, Luce, Basilikos, Rex Hasta, Regal Blade, Gespenst, and Excalibur sitting in your inventory adds 150,000 Gold to your Funds rank. That is on top of constant Silver Card use for the entire game and keeping stuff like the 10,000 Gold Delphi Shield, 5,000 Gold Iron Rune, a bunch of 3,000 Gold Elixers, and random weapons being in your inventory. Let's add up those items and the Cards, a Heaven Seal, and two Earth Seals, an Ocean Seal, two Orion's Bolts since promoting any but Rebecca is fail, two Hero Crests since Raven and Guy are enough and we're not using a massive team, never use Eclipse, never use Aura, never use Fimbulvetr, Aura, Eclipse, and Fenrir (super heavy garbage spells), and say we got three Elixers, and that's 211,000 Gold. That's a total 361,000 Gold to be exact, just in default items you should always have every time you play. This is assuming you use every single stat booster, Guiding Ring, and the Fell Contract.

I don't know exactly how the 30,000 Gold allowance Reikken/others figured out really works, but I trust him and the others, but if it's really that much for each unit, then Farina's cost isn't a huge penalty against her because no unit is using something like 17 Silver Lances worth of weapons in this game."

"The requirement given by SF's ranking page says ~847,000g is needed for 5*. It also says this ~847,000g is the requirement since it is 80% of the combined total for all chapters, which I've added up to around 1,053,000g total (or 1,058,750g, if you just do 847000/.8), with slight variance based on 24/27's differing paths. I'm going to assume that the listed requirement for each chapter equals the total assets and gold gained in the chapter, though this is not entirely accurate and will be addressed later. It is fairly close for now.

This leaves 1,053,000 - 847,000 = 206,000g to work with and still stay above the 5* requirement. Assuming a team of 10, each unit then has a personal budget of 20,600g to work with. Of course, you aren't going to be spreading your spendings on your team equally, as there are things like using prepromotes which add flexibility to your spending.

However, this doesn't account the aforementioned difference between listed requirements and actual assets/gold gained per chapter or things like what the silver card does, arena winnings, and whatever else I can't think of right now. So..."

Meaning, without the Silver Card at all, units have ~20k to work with, meaning the 30k stated by others I really trust makes a lot of sense and it could be more.

Provide some numbers on what exactly Marcus is doing in the early chapters to save so many turns. Shit like "he's awesome at combat so he kills everything real easy!" won't cut it. I'm not saying that he CANT shave off a significant amount of turns, I'd just like some proof as to how he goes about doing it.

Okay.

If that doesn't satisfy you, I can think of more.

Secondly. All this bullshit about the "skill" of debaters? Gimme a break. A fucking retarded second grader could come up with any of the same shit we do. There's like a clear cut line of people who "get it" and those who "don't get it" when it comes to fire emblem debates, and anyone here arguing on the tier list gets it. The people who don't are the "OMG MAI NINO TURNED OUT AWSUM WHY SHE BOTUM TIER LULZ!?!". One of the real only differences I see is access to data. Some people have a lot more enemy stats and shit that other people don't have, which can hardly be held against those who don't have it. Fortunately, we have a lot of stuff here.

I doubt it's all "he's stubborn!" or "he's ignoring me baawww!". People buy into some shit and dont buy into other shit. People aren't buying into the arguments about Farina and funds, people are buying into Vaida being worse than Jaffar. Whatever. Get over it. This goes for all the other arguments people have been bitching about.

Nah, there are really clear differences between how logical someone is, how convincing someone is, etc. There is skill in debating, and it's really noticeable. You know what shows it? Debate tournaments. The same people place really high in them all the time and others get raped until they improve their logic and ability to form arguments. Debating takes a lot of skill, otherwise competitions for debating wouldn't exist. Nobody is created equal.

I ain't a regular here (I might be after all this time, though). But hell, let's debate. You, me, properly.

I'll debate you in a formal debate if you wish. I'm in a lot at once right now, but I'm a jobless bum at his grandmother's house at the moment, so I have nothing else to do. I applied everywhere I could, but the Jersey Shore during winter in this economy is totally dead.

I really don't think it's fair to credit Harken for the Brave Sword or bash Karel for the Wo Dao. If we were doing this, both Louise and Lyn would be getting credit for joining with a White Gem in their pockets.

The difference here is that getting Karel means you don't get the Brave Sword. Louise and Lyn just come with that shit anyways. Harken must exist for the Brave Sword to exist, and Karel existing means he doesn't.

As for Harken, yes he's great and all being RNG proof, but he doesn't bring anything to the table that anyone else can't. Raven almost always gets used (better than Harken) but without even considering Raven's performance, Harken still loses AS from a Hand Axe (I'll give him credit, he loses much less than Raven) and can't properly 1-2 range against sword users (even someone like Geitz has this solved with bows). He's a really solid unit but he's not around long enough and good enough to be considered "irreplacable".

This is valid. All I can say is that he's much better than Karel, which is agreed upon.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Inui

[Tangerine]

I'll debate you in a formal debate if you wish. I'm in a lot at once right now, but I'm a jobless bum at his grandmother's house at the moment, so I have nothing else to do. I applied everywhere I could, but the Jersey Shore during winter in this economy is totally dead.

I think it might be because tourneyfag and self-proclaimed master debater do not stand out in the way you'd like them to on your resume. Especially not to a business owner. Believe me.

[Inui]

I think it might be because tourneyfag and self-proclaimed master debater do not stand out in the way you'd like them to on your resume. Especially not to a business owner. Believe me.

Once again, you troll/flame instead of debating, and assume nonsense.

I have had a job ever since I was 17. First at Whole Foods, then at a UPS Store. I am 21 now and only recently lost my job due to having to move far away from it. I know how to get a job and work and I don't need silly things like this spewed at me by my juniors.

[Tangerine]

Actually, as hilariously mean as my response was, I'll edit this because I'm a good girl.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Tangerine

[Life]

I'll debate you in a formal debate if you wish. I'm in a lot at once right now, but I'm a jobless bum at his grandmother's house at the moment, so I have nothing else to do. I applied everywhere I could, but the Jersey Shore during winter in this economy is totally dead.

The difference here is that getting Karel means you don't get the Brave Sword. Louise and Lyn just come with that shit anyways. Harken must exist for the Brave Sword to exist, and Karel existing means he doesn't.

This is valid. All I can say is that he's much better than Karel, which is agreed upon.

1) I can't formal debate as I'm going away for a week starting Monday to visit my best friend. I'm also in university trying to major in Chemistry (any Chem major will tell you how hard this is) so I don't have as much time as I would like to have.

2) Why do you want the Brave Sword? I'm not asking "why do you want the Brave Sword instead of the Wo Dao", I'm just asking in general.

The Brave Sword is really only better when you consider it for the Funds Ranking. The Wo Dao is actually better as a used sword because it has more Crit than a Killing Edge, less weight than a KE and is only -1 Mt (which really doesn't matter when you consider that a critical does 3x the regular damage), not to mention the exact same uses as the Killing Edge. Granted, it's only for Guy, Lyn, Karel, Rath and Karla, but Guy will (probably) be in play and Lyn still has a couple of forced chapters, not to mention a possible (not probable) promotion which has her seeing something like 40 Crit without a weapon in her hands (I did the math in a previous debate on GFaqs).

PS: Just checked and it's about ~35 Crit.

Assuming that we stick the Brave Sword in our storage the minute we get it, that's 3k we've saved. If we were to use the WD instead of a KE, we save 1.3k in actual Funds (using 1 less Killing Edge), making it a 1.7k difference.

Now let's say that we use some of the Brave Sword... About 10 uses sounds right. We still have 2k saved from the Funds of the sword but now there's a 700G difference between the two swords. That's basically nothing as only 3 swords cost less than 700G (Iron, Slim and Steel). And that's after only 5 attacks (2 shots per attack before doubling).

I'm currently leaning towards the Wo Dao as being the better practical sword.

3) I'm not trying to argue Karel > Harken. I'm not an idiot. I'm just pointing out what I think is wrong with your post. I don't think that Harken is underrated at all.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Crysta]

Banned Suggestions:

- Farina Rising

- Rebecca is a good unit

- Inui Planking

I lol'd.

Does any other tier list do this?

[Rodykitty]

Does any other tier list do this?

My FEDS tier list used to.

[Crysta]

'Kay.

Does any other tier list not run around here do this?

Regardless of Inui's attempts to get certain units higher, no tier placements should be set in stone. It can't if it wants to remain credible, as things do change as data is reviewed more thoroughly.

[Tangerine]

I think we should rank characters based on hairstyle instead of this stupid idea of utility and usefulness.

[Life]

Since Inui's wall of... post (I guess) stopped anyone from seeing my last post that had some real content in it, I'm going to quote myself.

1) What's the reasoning behind Dorcas > Geitz? I think that one should be the other way around but I'm not willing to argue it if the evidence behind Dorcas is too strong.

2) Athos > Heath. I've posted before that Athos is basically your Tactics ranking in Light, shaving off almost a turn by himself (sharing the top left room with a Peg Knight and ticking off half of Lloyd/Linus's HP without eating a counter). Heath is subjected to nothing more than Exp unit use because of him being underleveled and just too slow. Also, here's a little blurb that I've previously said about Athos.

Athos is basically the only guy who is doing proper damage to Nergal and the Dragon. He has his own free tomes that hit extra both enemies and beats the 37 HP requirement of surviving the Dragon. He has fantastic stats and is fantastic for healing or using Luna, even better than Canas because of his maxed Mag stat.

Can Heath's help to the Exp rank really be better than what Athos brings to the table in Light?

EDIT: The real problem with Karel (IMO) isn't the fact that he denies Harken. To me, the real problem comes when we pull Jerme's map instead of Kenneth's (I think Jerme's is the default but I could be wrong). If we want Karel, we have to rush to open up 4 doors by turn 9 while Harken requires just simply plodding along through the snow.

Kenneth's map is no problem for either of them. Jerme's is the one that's iffy.[/Quote]

I think we should rank characters based on hairstyle instead of this stupid idea of utility and usefulness.

Be right back, just grabbing that epic MANLINESS Tier List that was posted a while back.

EDIT: Found it.

Zinedine Zidane Tier

Marcus

Fargus

Renault

Wallace

Steven Seagal Tier

Bartre

Dart

Oswin

Eliwood

Dorcas

Karel

Simon Cowell Tier

Hawkeye

Pent

Harken

Rath

Geitz

Hector

Legault

Alec Baldwin Tier

Matthew

Jaffar

Kent

Heath

Erk

Raven

Sanjaya Malakar Tier

Sain

Guy

Nils

Lowen

Canas

Wil

Kitchen tier

All FE7 women

Lucius

Edited February 18, 2010 by Cap'n Crunch

[Florete]

EDIT: The real problem with Karel (IMO) isn't the fact that he denies Harken. To me, the real problem comes when we pull Jerme's map instead of Kenneth's (I think Jerme's is the default but I could be wrong). If we want Karel, we have to rush to open up 4 doors by turn 9 while Harken requires just simply plodding along through the snow.

Kenneth's map is no problem for either of them. Jerme's is the one that's iffy.

No, Jerme's map >>> Kenneth's. It's Tactics. Jerme's is 25 turns while Kenneth's is 18. Perhaps Kenneth's can be finished faster but by over 7 turns? I doubt it.

I decided that's probably not what you were getting at but I wanted to leave it in case anyone thinks otherwise.

I don't find opening 4 doors in 9 turns tough at all. In fact, I usually have to hold back a bit so I can get Harken.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Red Fox of Fire

[Crysta]

Banning arguments on a hairstyle tier list would be even more laughable.

But banning it on this list is sad, too.

[Colonel M]

Okay, you asked for it.

his is something CATS an I agree upon. Why is one person allowed to ban discussion on a topic and has total and complete control over the tier list? Especially someone like you, who I personally view as far from elite at this game or debating (CATS, Solid, HJ, myself, Reikken, Reaver, Paperblade, Mekkah, dondon, and others are clearly more reasonable and provide better arguments and logic)? That is ridiculous.

Funds was addressed. I will repeat myself again, and maybe it will sink in. Without the Silver Card, each unit has 20k. Without the Silver Card. The Silver Card is such crazy rape that it takes all cash you have and doubles it. That 30k in Ostia? It's not 60k. 5k from the village? Turn into 10k later. Money from chests and story events and the arena? Double it. You can do this over and over with all cash you get. Each unit should end up with a 30k allowance. It takes using 17 Silver Lances, which will kill 166 enemies WITHOUT EVER ONE-SHOTTING, for an unpromoted unit to meet their allowance, let alone exceed it. No unit even comes close to that level of money consumption except Farina and Assassins, but it doesn't matter much. Each unit pours tons of extra cash into the total pool you are allowed to use. Spending money on Farina doesn't affect that much, if at all.

CATS and you =/= Tier List. I run the tier list. CATS doesn't even come here anymore.

Furthermore, that's besides the point. Watch me use the Silver Card. Now Farina is worth 50K in gold. Whoops.

"I warped a unit to Kishuna (huge EXP for Warp) and 6 more level 14 Berserkers showed up, but I undid that because that unit can't win."

That unit was a 20/10 Harken, which vastly exceeds any Assassin in power, but he stood no chance in there. Yeah, I definitely didn't imply it was a good idea at all. I just tested it.

Oh if only he could bring his dearest Isadora support with him.

Costing 30k doesn't matter. They only contribute Suck while Farina can contribute Awesome.

She can only contribute "mediocre" when we're wasting our asses recruiting a 50K Est. Man if only Est were in a ranked ga- oh wait.

And it didn't matter. In fact, it turned out that Oswin's level should have also been dropped, and that worked in Marcus's favor much more due to his shitty growths being way worse than Oswin's. I added 2-3 extra levels and made a small error, but correcting it merely strengthened my case.

Hrrdrr. Missesd the point: you overinflate levels ridiculously.

Hardin: level 6, 9 Str, 30%

Kain: level 6, 8.75 Str, 35%

Abel: level 6, 8 Str, 40%

I don't really do much with FE 11, and my statement was merely a casual one asking a question, not some debate post where I was trying to assert something.

Sounded like it to me.

It's not there since you're looking in the wrong place.

Here and here should do, right in the same topic.

I love how you're picking out stuff that makes your case look better, ignoring other stuff (that seems to be what most of you guys are good at; totally ignoring valid points), and taking things out of context.

Reminds me of someone else. "Hey, let's forget about Farina's cost".

Solide and myself addressed the biggest problem with sending Sain and Kent ahead with your eyes closed in comparison to Lowen is that Sain and Kent still have CoD. If Sain is ORKOing everything in sight, it is quite possible for him to see those 8 attacks that send him to his grave As addressed here, Here, Here, Here, and also here. Oh and here. This Post also doesn't address what Kent is ORKOing and Lowen is missing. Doubled by Valkyries? I don't recall how "ridiculous" their offense is, but after a Pure Water Lowen has 13 Res. He can probably escape that rut quickly. There's some of the higher end ones, but you said that most of them carry staves anyway.

Mekkah compared to Pent first. I addressed it. Why? I don't ignore things like you do.

He used Pent to compare Karel's durability to Pent's which countered your argument about Karel having "0" durability whatsoever.

Too bad that debate had tons of factual information about Isadora's performance that you ignored...as usual.

The proof was posted.

And that's why Isadora rose a tier.

"Comparing her to Lucius does."

Well Lucius isn't raping your EXP rank for starters. Uh, well he's not the worst in combat but "shrug".

t's good because she gets it at 19x. Going into Chapter 20 with 17 Atk, she one-rounds every single enemy on the map besides Cameron and Darin. That's pretty fucking awesome. Too bad you didn't realize it.

Just uploaded Chapter 20. She can miss some of the AKs, 16-6 x2 =/= 21, which is a Mage. It's also 16.5, which if it rounds down means she fails to KO a little bit more. Looking at C22, assuming it rounds up to 18 Atk, this can safely KO a lot more units.

Okay, I concede it. I was proven wrong on Serra's offense. I can actually admit a mistake.

What is it doubling? Where is your proof?

Assuming Chapter 25 (w/Nosferatu's 10 AS), this doubles every Pirate barring a Hand Axe and the Iron Axe dudes, and only misses out on Pascal and the Warrior.

I advocated the C, and absolutely nothing more, and not until the midgame. Perhaps you should actually read posts.

It really doesn't matter. Advocating any support on Serra MIGHT AS WELL BE A JOKE. Let's review:

Hector - 15 + 1

Matthew - 5 + 1

Florina - 0 + 1

Sain - 0 + 2

Oswin - 10 + 1

Lucius - 0 + 2

Erk - 2 + 1

This. Is. Fucking. Stupid. It takes 80 points for a C support, and that's assuming Hector is next to a FUCKING HEALER the ENTIRE TIME. Hector has better supports. Eliwood is one. Oswin and Matthew aren't bad, though the latter brings issues (but it offers +Crit so Matthew might stick around) and they're at reasonable speeds - 20+2 and 20+3, respectively. Lyn is 0+3, but in about 5 turns it becomes 20 (Hector and Serra) vs. 15 (Lyn and Hector). 10 turns it's 30 (Lyn and Hector) and 25 (Hector and Serra). Yeah, forget it in other words.

Funds, lol.

I'll take that as you conceding. Moving on.

God Tier player phase offense + near invincibility + good supports. That's what she has. I can expand on Rebecca later, and I said I would and didn't have proof yet, so whatever.

Even Reikken's post with Rebecca wasn't very convincing in my eyes. I even question Rebecca > Louise because Louise doesn't require training + Bolt to become marginally useful. Add onto the Pent support and we're in business.

Rebecca's supports include a Cavalier... who doesn't give two shits about Rebecca IMO. He prefers his mobile support combo (B Eliwood / B Marcus). He also has *gasp* Isadora and Harken who can actually come along with him and raep shit on the Enemy Phase. After that she has Dart (Ocean Seal), Wil (rofl), Sain (rofl some more), Louise (though Erk might not mind her. +Def / Crit), Raven (0+2), and Nino (...). No, all of her support options don't want her. Why? She can't be carried around with the lack of Enemy Phase. While Lowen has 3 combat phases, Rebecca has one. Lowen can have a lot more than this too. How can she even beat Lyn? LYN CAN BE USED IN 32X AND PAD YOUR EXP RANK GUYS!

You proved nothing beyond a mediocre ability to twist facts, take things out of context, and try to be a good debater. Every single thing you just posted just got ripped to shreads.

"Troll harder". Quit insulting the SF members, they see through the truth obviously that you can't concede points easily and you haven't really proven much, not to mention your questionable methods to raise characters.

No EXP bonus to her class like Assassins, killing the 80 EXP per turn average, makes her much worse at this than the Assassins. The point is EXP. She's not as good at it as Assassins. One-rounding isn't that good since you get less EXP. My suggestion is to spend a whopping 17 turns in there by turn-shaving earlier so you can get ~400 EXP per turn, which is more than you can get by doing anything else earlier. You have time to not one-round and gain even more EXP. Combat rank? 40%. Killing in two rounds is still 50%.

There are 3 Assassins and 5 unit slots. Lyn can comfortably join in my opinion if she's still 20/1.

Also with Assassins you want Silencer to activate since it yields more CEXP. So ORKOing is still important.

Oh, finally:

hy is one person allowed to ban discussion on a topic and has total and complete control over the tier list? Especially someone like you, who I personally view as far from elite at this game or debating (CATS, Solid, HJ, myself, Reikken, Reaver, Paperblade, Mekkah, dondon, and others are clearly more reasonable and provide better arguments and logic)? That is ridiculous.

I am not adamant. Ask Mekkah, Paperblade, dondon, Grandjackal, Cynthia, FE3 Player, the belated bblader, Seven Deadly Sins, nflchamp, Kirsche, Red Fox of Fire, Interceptor, Narga, Sol... many others within my caliber (as in friends that debate with me) and, of course, many of the people at Smogon University. I can be reasonable. I can provide arguments. I can provide logic. Am I the best at them? Do I admit to it? No, I don't. I am, what is considered, "a human being". These people can attest that I do not try to be elitist. Perhaps others like CATS will say that I am now, but in the same vein, I do actually apologize to him. I had no right to really "call him an idiot". I can admit to my faults.

I think before you raise judgment at Serenes Forest, you should really look at yourself in the mirror and think about it. You are calling us out and saying that we are elitist. Yet, who are you to do the same to us? We did not think that HJ and others were elitist either. Did we disagree? Yes, and that is what happens within FE Debating. No one is a "God" at debating no matter how you look at it. It's fine to respect opinion from other members more, but I do not completely degrade others. I won't lie: I hate GFAQs (the website). Yet, I accept Life Admiral, Tangerine, Jaffar7 and co into our community to discuss things.

Finally, being able to call yourself a "Master Debater" shouldn't be up to you. THAT should be up to everyone that views your arguments.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Colonel M

[Tangerine]

Banning arguments on a hairstyle tier list would be even more laughable.

But banning it on this list is sad, too.

I vote that we ban this person from the tier list too. Who else votes that?

[Life]

I vote that we ban this person from the tier list too. Who else votes that?

Who, Inui? Naw, he's kinda amusing. And that just seems mean, Mori.

[Tangerine]

Who, Inui? Naw, he's kinda amusing. And that just seems mean, Mori.

I vote that we ban you from the tier list for disagreeing with my vote towards banning Crysta from the tier list.

[Life]

I vote that we ban you from the tier list for disagreeing with my vote towards banning Crysta from the tier list.

I vote that we ban me too... Wait, what?

[Colonel M]

I vote that we get back on-topic. Dorkass vs. Geitz. I can probably buy Geitz > Dorkass, but admittedly Dorkass is helping you in the hardest of chapters (earlygame, where you can't wtfspam Marcus. Obviously you can use him). His offense is about the best on the team as well until people start doubling (Guy and Matthew are close IMO, but Dorcas also gets a chance to dodge once in a while with WTA). Geitz seems to have solid offense, and the units he's short on doubling (Mercenaries) can be put to sleep with Brave Bow use (27 Atk might as well come close to obliterating everything). He can at least dent the Heroes (14 damage per hit). He's even got a good Str growth and Spd base + growth to go along with it. I can probably buy Geitz > Dorcas, but the question is how much of an impact Dorcas makes in earlygame in comparison to Geitz later in the game.

EDIT: *Cough* Sorry, I call him Dorkass as a joke. I really do mean Dorcas.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Colonel M

[Tangerine]

Beautiful Hair

Louise

Ninian

Florina

Athos

Pretty Hair

Karla

Serra

Lucius

Matthew

Raven

Isadora

Priscilla

Fiora

Karel

Cute Hair

Lyn

Heath

Pent

Harken

Nino

Hawkeye

Guy

Not That Great Hair

Renault

Dart

Dorcas

Geitz

Legault

Canas

Yuck Hair

Jaffar

Rath

Bartre

Rebecca

Wil

Farina

Marcus

Oswin

Hector

Sain

Kent

Erk

Lowen

Eliwood

-Georges St. Pierre Hair-

Wallace

Vaida

[Colonel M]

Come on Tangerine post about Dorcas vs. Geitz not beautiful hair. :(

We can make another tier list for that though. :)

I also edited my post up above.

[grandjackal]

Could see Dorcas over Geitz just for the exp rank.

Speaking of 50K on Farina, who the hell says we even HAVE 40K just on us in cash when she arrives? She's 40K+whatever we have to sell to get 40K just to recruit her with+10K from promotion item.

Edited February 18, 2010 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Tangerine]

Come on Tangerine post about Dorcas vs. Geitz not beautiful hair. :(

Actually it was about hair of all different levels, ranging from beautiful to bald. But since you are Kal Penn I will comply.

We can make another tier list for that though. :)

Well, I do like talking about hair. Hair styles in JRPGs are especially fun.