FE6 Ranks

[Colonel M]

I think banning the arena is a good idea if it generates more positive discussion.

[dondon151]

You might as well ban BEXP and supports in other games, then.

[Colonel M]

You might as well ban BEXP and supports in other games, then.

Don't we already assume that?

Only in this instance with ranks. We can assume that we're using the arena once like you did. Or we can assume marginal use of it instead (like we can assume a unit uses the arena for an extra level or something).

[CATS]

The difference is that BEXP and supports don't make the entire line of discussion pointless. Well, ranked discussion is still not pointless if "bumrush all day then spend 100 turns in the arena" is the mentality, it's just no different from efficiency (except that Lalum/Elphin are a tier above top because they let you arena like twice as much in one turn).

[Narga_Rocks]

(except that Lalum/Elphin are a tier above top because they let you arena like twice as much in one turn).

This game has rescue, right? And Lalum/Elphin only refresh one unit at a time? Isn't it more like 4 vs. 3 or 3 vs. 2 or possibly even 5 vs. 4 if you go crazy with rescuing.

[Colonel M]

I think minimal arena usage is fine. Not necessarily have to outright ban it and I still find it different than banning BEXP and supports. Remember that the arena is what partially makes the other ranks a joke, which if we remove the "abuse" portion of it (by this I mean spending more than X amount of turns), then it becomes easier to discuss.

[dondon151]

The difference is that BEXP and supports don't make the entire line of discussion pointless.

They're both part of what the game gives you. If you ignore that, then you're playing a different game.

And BEXP does make discussion pointless to a certain extent. It greatly favors availability, and there's a huge surplus of it.

[CATS]

This game has rescue, right? And Lalum/Elphin only refresh one unit at a time? Isn't it more like 4 vs. 3 or 3 vs. 2 or possibly even 5 vs. 4 if you go crazy with rescuing.

I dunno, maybe. I've never done this sort of large-scale arena abuse myself. I just know a dancer will create more arena uses per turn for you than any other individual unit.

They're both part of what the game gives you. If you ignore that, then you're playing a different game.

Tier discussion requires the creation of artificial standards to some extent; I don't see how banning a certain aspect of the game which makes discussion considerably less interesting (or in this case less unique) is much different from defining "efficiency" and basing a tier list on it, or emphasizing ranks in FE7. If the arena has the effect on FE6 ranks which Mori implied that it does, then I'd see it as being a case similar to warpskipping in FE11, to use an example from another game.

[Rewjeo]

Fir>Marcus, anyone? Tactics are such a complete joke in this game, so Marcus is much less important than in an efficiency run. You can take an extra 7 turns a chapter earlygame and still have extra time. I'd say Fir's EXP+late game combat is worth more than giving us superfluous extra time.

[frat_tastic]

Hey look, lets post in this topic so shit like Wendy>Treck doesn't happen.

[Colonel M]

Hey look, lets post in this topic so shit like Wendy>Treck doesn't happen.

You do realize that this list is like an efficiency tier list with just "EXP Rank" right?

I'm also going to define rules if I need to for the FE6 List to prevent shit like Wendy > Treck.

[Rewjeo]

No comments on Fir>Marcus?

[frat_tastic]

Actually this is just like the efficiency list only with ranks for EXP, Combat, Tactics, Power, Funds and Survival. So not like it all.

Granted some of those are easy. But its really nothing like the efficiency list. What the fuck do I care about finishing the chapter as fast as possible? I only car about finishing it under the tactics requirement.

And shit like Wendy>Treck isn't possible, because while Treck may have a higher opportunity cost initially because of his recruitment compared to Wendy's, he adds significantly more to ranks than she does.

Edited March 5, 2010 by frat_tastic

[Reikken]

What the fuck do I care about finishing the chapter as fast as possible? I only car about finishing it under the tactics requirement.

Spend 25 turns in ch 10 and 25 turns in ch 11, or spend 20 turns in ch 10 and 30 turns in ch 11? (11(A) has an arena)

Possibly struggle to beat later chapters with heroes and wyvern lords and junk fast enough without risking anyone dying, or spend a few less turns in some earlier chapter and have a few extra to work with later? Or have a few extra to spend babying, say, Lilina and Cath in some later chapter to boost up your exp rank. Or etc.

Edited March 5, 2010 by Reikken

[Inui]

Why would Shin go down in the Ilia route? He rapes the Pegs and becomes more h4x for Experience by being underleveled so you can go there.

Both him and Fir should be above Echidna in both routes.

<insert every single argument I made for Fir in the other topic except now she has kill priority due to the Experience rank>

[Narga_Rocks]

Spend 25 turns in ch 10 and 25 turns in ch 11, or spend 20 turns in ch 10 and 30 turns in ch 11? (11(A) has an arena)

Possibly struggle to beat later chapters with heroes and wyvern lords and junk fast enough without risking anyone dying, or spend a few less turns in some earlier chapter and have a few extra to work with later? Or have a few extra to spend babying, say, Lilina and Cath in some later chapter to boost up your exp rank. Or etc.

Which is why he said it's like efficiency with an exp rank, though I'd also suggest that it is like efficiency with an exp rank and a funds rank (and a power rank), but that's just me.

[frat_tastic]

It's still nothing like an efficiency list, even disregarding every other rank but Tactics. Of course we are probably going to speed through some chapters with stupidly high turn requirements so we can pad the other ranks, but we still don't give a fuck about finishing chapters as fast as we can. Finishing them at even just a ho-hum pace shaves off an enormous amount of turns. Tactics is easy here.

The point is that we are basically never going as fast as we can, like we are in a maximum efficiency playthrough. FE6 Ranked List is nothing like the FE6 maximum efficiency list, the two are so inheritantly different in how we rank uints that they can't be compared.

EDIT: Also combat rank is a lot harder in this game than in FE7, since enemies aren't loltastic and the requirement is higher.

Edited March 5, 2010 by frat_tastic

[-Cynthia-]

Why would Shin go down in the Ilia route? He rapes the Pegs and becomes more h4x for Experience by being underleveled so you can go there.

Both him and Fir should be above Echidna in both routes.

<insert every single argument I made for Fir in the other topic except now she has kill priority due to the Experience rank>

I guess the argument is that everyone rocks against Pegs, so Shin is comparably less special?

Really though, Shin moving up in Sacae makes a lot more sense than dropping him in Ilia. I might go as far to say that Shin is the best Nomad killer in the entire game, since he counter them with extremely high accuracy and either ORKOS or comes very close to doing so. The other top tiers often don't double or have to use inaccurate and weak weapons to have 1-2 range. The other main enemy types in Sacae are SMs and Wyverns, Shin can ORKO Wyverns and is borderline doubling Myrms/SMs (and can hit them without taking a counter, which is nice since they have crazy crit).

[Inui]

Not everyone rapes Pegs. You still need a lot of AS to double most of them and Silver/Brave Bow or Aircalibur for the OHKO...and Aircalibur is iffy on most magic users anyways. 20/5 Lot with a Steel Bow fails to double or OHKO the Pegs.

Shin and Fir need to both be above Echidna if the Experience rank is in play.

[Reikken]

Not everyone rapes Pegs. You still need a lot of AS to double most of them and Silver/Brave Bow or Aircalibur for the OHKO...and Aircalibur is iffy on most magic users anyways. 20/5 Lot with a Steel Bow fails to double or OHKO the Pegs.

Your facts are messed up. Steel Bow is stronger than Aircalibur. It has more mt, and pegs have less def than res. Steel bow = 27 atk vs peg. - about 6 def. And then about 33 hp. To OHK like every peg ever with a steel bow, Lot would only need 16 atk before weapon. An aircalibur user, however, would need about 22. That's for OHKing all pegs, mind you. Most are weaker. Additionally, almost all pegs have 6-8 AS loss. You can expect them to have 8-11 AS.

Now if by "Pegs" you meant "Falcos", then things are different. Those things are actually somewhat hard to kill, with 14-15 AS and extant hp/def. But a silver bow makes for an easy OHK anyway.

[Inui]

My bad, I was thinking of Falcos.

[GreatEclipse]

The problem with ranks in this game is that tactics is so lenient you can spend dozens of turns arena abusing Allen and Dieck to 20/1 in chapter 7 and still have a perfect score by the time you can check your progress.

[Inui]

It was proposed by CATS to ban the arena in FE 6 in order to make ranked tier lists not lame.

Unranked is still more lame than that, though. You know why, good sir.

[Florete]

It was proposed by CATS to ban the arena in FE 6 in order to make ranked tier lists not lame.

You can do that, but then it isn't really "Ranks," it's "Ranks w/out arena."

Unranked is still more lame than that, though. You know why, good sir.

[GreatEclipse]

The whole Wendy > Treck this was just a joke to show how absurd it is to punish someone for consuming a unit slot. If we adopted a standard where units are judged on their performance under the assumption they are seriously used, that argument would never fly. Treck costs you a single turn to exist, and Wendy costs you dozens of turns just to get anywhere at all.