H3 (Lunatic) Tier List

[Espinosa]

it's dependent on MU's durability relative to ryan's. in general i think luke will attack MU if MU's def is lower than ryan's, give or take a point because of the effects of the weapon triangle. so if MU goes fighter, myrm, merc, etc. then luke will attack MU (obviously dependent on past/present/future in addition to the prologue level up), whereas armor MU will never be attacked by luke, which is why armor MU takes an extra turn on the chapter.

That seems like the most logical explanation since it works everywhere else in the game, but it won't work here for some odd reason. I've seen Fighter MU get ignored with 3 defence, and I've seen Fighter MU get attacked with 5 defence (present defence choice + prologue defence level-up), so that has to be tossed out as an explanation. It also seems that Ryan always gets picked on by Luke when you choose speed as your present stat (past is always strength since you want to 3-turn Jeigan).

Since Luke seems to hit on MU and interacts with him the most in conversations, one could consider the choices made by the player as contributing to whom Luke attacks.

Who moves first deciding Luke's target sounds silly but not any less than any of my speculations, so it's worth fiddling around with.

edit: experimenting with the same file with different P-1 saves now. Getting +2 HP, +1 str, +1 spd in P-1 makes Luke ignore MU, whereas getting +2 HP, +1 str but no speed makes Luke target MU, making 3-turning P-2 possible. HP, str, spd and def are the stats I paid attention to, not sure if the rest (or the number of level-ups) could affect this. The suggestion of moving characters in a different order doesn't seem to be effective.

Edited December 18, 2012 by Espinosa

[dondon151]

... did you try putting one/both on a fort?

[Espinosa]

Same effect. The idea that arouses me after all these attempts (and the more I take, the less the 'laws' are coherent) is that Luke can detect whether MU will 2HKO him with Ryan chip thrown in, for which MU needs to proc strength on Jeigan. It's also pretty apparent that excessive speed on MU turns Luke off for some reason (even though he's nowhere in danger of being doubled, though his friend is).

Current situation: MU with 25 HP/3 def standing on ground, Ryan 18 HP/7 def standing on a fort. MU has 12 str and 8 spd. Luke will always go for Ryan. Oh yeah, Luke has 2% crit on Ryan, but 1% crit on MU. Wonder if that has anything to do with it? More testing about to follow.

[-Cynthia-]

she's not "acceptable." dark sage has already pointed out that minerva's str blows as SM and she's not usually fast enough as sniper (plus she's still kind of weak). so in order to make her any sort of long-term unit, minerva needs to eat at least some combination of energy drop and speedwings, plus whatever she needs to fix deficiencies in other areas.

Admittedly she probably will need arena time or stat boosters or both, but there aren't a whole lot of units in the game that function well without any stat boosters. Even Palla could use a Speedwing on most playthroughs, and she's often considered the #2 unit in the game. If needing stat boosters means one can't be in High tier, what are the units currently in High tier doing there?

Edited December 19, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

Admittedly she probably will need arena time or stat boosters or both, but there aren't a whole lot of units in the game that function well without any stat boosters. Even Palla could use a Speedwing on most playthroughs, and she's often considered the #2 unit in the game. If needing stat boosters means one can't be in High tier, what are the units currently in High tier doing there?

you need to understand the scope of the difference between the stat boosters that palla requires and the stat boosters that minerva requires.

palla's average spd as a 16/10 DK is 20.5. that's about the level that one should expect coming out of chapter 14. with a speedwings, palla's spd as an SM is 28.5. she's ~4 levels away from actually capping spd as an SM. obviously she's a fair bit slower as sniper, but the point remains that about 1 speedwings is all she needs.

now minerva. first of all, she's 2.5 spd slower at --/10 than palla is at 16/10. so she needs 1 more speedwings than palla does. compared to a unit like catria, she's 4.5 str weaker at --/10 than catria is at 16/10 (but catria will likely be at a lower level, like 16/8, so it's closer to a 3.5 str deficit). catria is not the paragon of power and is definitely an energy drop candidate, so minerva needs a -lot- of help. it's certainly not a point in minerva's favor that at --/10, she averages slightly lower str than caeda at 16/10.

for the units in high tier, 1-2 stat boosters is all they need to stay good. minerva needs like, 4-5 stat boosters - ones that are already highly contested.

[PKL]

So...why is Linde still above Arran and Ryan? Dont bring up the Robe thing again.

[-Cynthia-]

you need to understand the scope of the difference between the stat boosters that palla requires and the stat boosters that minerva requires.

palla's average spd as a 16/10 DK is 20.5. that's about the level that one should expect coming out of chapter 14. with a speedwings, palla's spd as an SM is 28.5. she's ~4 levels away from actually capping spd as an SM. obviously she's a fair bit slower as sniper, but the point remains that about 1 speedwings is all she needs.

now minerva. first of all, she's 2.5 spd slower at --/10 than palla is at 16/10. so she needs 1 more speedwings than palla does. compared to a unit like catria, she's 4.5 str weaker at --/10 than catria is at 16/10 (but catria will likely be at a lower level, like 16/8, so it's closer to a 3.5 str deficit). catria is not the paragon of power and is definitely an energy drop candidate, so minerva needs a -lot- of help. it's certainly not a point in minerva's favor that at --/10, she averages slightly lower str than caeda at 16/10.

for the units in high tier, 1-2 stat boosters is all they need to stay good. minerva needs like, 4-5 stat boosters - ones that are already highly contested.

There's also the matter of Minerva being more useful at base than say, Rody or Cecile, due to her possessing effective weaponry/A axes to OHKO stuff. Cecile needs an Angelic Robe at base to not be OHKOd, although her base offense isn't bad I suppose.

Rody...what do we even do with Rody? As a Hunter, he's not doubling and stuck with Iron at base, which is pretty crappy offense. I guess he could stay a Cavalier and Steel Lance things, but he's not doubling much and gets 2HKOd a lot.

Minerva does have some serious flaws, but Draug/Rody/Cecile also seem pretty seriously flawed and those are the units she's around.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

So...why is Linde still above Arran and Ryan? Dont bring up the Robe thing again.

Sorry, you don't get to do that.

Come back when you plan on being reasonable.

[eclipse]

Sorry, you don't get to do that.

Come back when you plan on being reasonable.

I wouldn't mind seeing some explanation, but that's for my own curiosity.

[PKL]

Even if she does get that Robe, what exactly is she doing with it? She's doing 9 damage to DKs in her join chapter with Nosferatu, so that's out of the question. Her Aura chipping is nice, but does it really compare to how clutch Arran is and does it compare well to Ryan's utility? I just want an explanation here.

[dondon151]

oh man not this again

SDS is going to plug his ears when we point out that his waifu linde is not as good as he thinks she is

you can ban me once from #feto, SDS, but you can't ban me from this topic

Edited December 19, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Seven Deadly Sins]

One of the few characters that 2HKOs Dracoknights and can still counter them, all game long. Aura is amazing, eventually she can tank with Resire (including allowing a right side strat on ch16 rather than the retarded chokepoint strat that requires a roided out dracoknight mu), and she gains enough Speed that she'll never really have speed issues. Def/Res gap ensures she's competitive all game, she can pick up Shaver for SE damage on flying dragons and dracoknights, and she has basically unrestricted access to the +Mag stars all game long to fuel her damage output. Late to endgame she can go Swordmaster and lean on maxed speed with Levin Swords, which you have enough of to last you through lategame and give her 31-33 Magic MT at 1-2 range. She's guaranteed to be strong enough to bring the hurt to Gharnef, and won't need serious help surviving him like most all the other options.

I will say that she's a bit of YMMV, but pretty much everyone on this list is, and Linde has what it takes to chew through some of the tougher enemies in the game with very little real help.

e: All I hear from opponents is "nah but linde sux" which is definitely not a convincing or realistic argument.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[dondon151]

and Linde has what it takes to chew through some of the tougher enemies in the game with very little real help.

have you looked at how atrocious her bases are

or did you conveniently forget them after you pumped her up with stat boosters from the base armory and whatever shards you had lying about

for chrissake it's hard enough getting a unit like catria to promotion and not only is her base lever higher than linde's, but her combat is better and her movement is higher so she gains more EXP. so between having some of the assiest bases in existence and being locked to a class that is hard pressed to see any combat past turn 2,

that's bullshit, son

e: All I hear from opponents is "nah but linde sux" which is definitely not a convincing or realistic argument.

your argument is any better? you are asking us to take you on faith. let me paraphrase: "nah but linde's gr8!"

Edited December 19, 2012 by HORSEBlRD

[Seven Deadly Sins]

have you looked at how atrocious her bases are

or did you conveniently forget them after you pumped her up with stat boosters from the base armory and whatever shards you had lying about

for chrissake it's hard enough getting a unit like catria to promotion and not only is her base lever higher than linde's, but her combat is better and her movement is higher so she gains more EXP. so between having some of the assiest bases in existence and being locked to a class that is hard pressed to see any combat past turn 2,

that's bullshit, son

your argument is any better? you are asking us to take you on faith. let me paraphrase: "nah but linde's gr8!"

I ask no such thing.

I know I posted about all this before (and so did you and many others) but here's the things that Linde gets:

- A robe (2500g, you have 10k to start if you're not braindead)

- Dusts (nobody else wants them)

- Magic Stars (nobody else wants them)

- Arena Topping (as does every single other character)

She doesn't get multiple inbase boosters. She doesn't get dracoshields. She doesn't get speedwings. She doesn't get Arms Scrolls. The only possibly contestible item here is a single Angelic Robe, which lets Linde 2HKO Dracoknights (and by extension everything else in the universe) solo AND counter them, something shared earlygame by only My Unit, and only roided out Fighter / AK builds that somehow already have 27 Mt with Iron in Ch3. This alone is enough to earn her the EXP to promote by the valley, and Def/Res gap means she's doing between 6 and 10 more damage per attack than any other unit with comparable MT in the game. Aura compensates for base MAG until you get Dusts / stars, and 75% speed growth kicks in to cover her speed. Sure she's not doubling everything, but she's still doing in 1 hit what most do in 2, and it's not like doubling is a common trait among characters in this game.

Edited December 19, 2012 by Seven Deadly Sins

[charlie_]

I haven't played Lunatic LTC yet, but I have some things to say about your argument.

Yes, you start with 10k. This doesn't mean you should start burning it so early. Rather relying on Linde's dodgy magic growth, you could use the money for forges on weapons like a Steel Bow, or the Wing Spear, or for base arenaing people when they need it. Linde might be 2HKOing Dracos, but that's with Aura, an item with limited uses. Gordin can do plenty Dracos with an unforged Steel Bow, while not needing the dust to do so. Base level Gordin can OHKO with the Steel Forge, base Linde isn't. By no means is Linde the only viable unit to take dusts. She needs them, since her magic base is 1 higher than Mage MU, without any boosts to MU whatsoever, except she comes 9 chapters later. And 3 levels higher. Her 40% growth (or 30 upon promotion) really, really doesn't help matters, since she needs Aura to kill things early on, and you don't get another until Chapter 20x. Linde isn't going to get a lot of exp either. Mages and Archers have the primary job of chipping so that other units don't need to take a counter. That way, the chippers don't get much exp and fall behind. Staffbots would like Spirit Dusts to increase their healing, as would Merric, or any other possible mages. I'm assuming Magic Stars are Star Shards, and no way is Linde entitled to whichever she pleases. I'd rather give Cancer to a front liner like Palla, than someone like Linde who gets 2HKOed anyway, or gets turned from 1HKOed to surviving with a sliver of health. The Magic boosting star shards are all I can see her getting, since any others are made better use of by competition.

[Paperblade]

On H4 I was able to forge a max might Ridersbane so that max Str+Starsphere Generals with A Lances could OHKO Ch. 20 Paladins and still bought pretty much every stat booster itg

money really isn't a big deal itg although I think I use the base arena less than other people

[Dark Sage]

I ask no such thing.

I know I posted about all this before (and so did you and many others) but here's the things that Linde gets:

- A robe (2500g, you have 10k to start if you're not braindead)

- Dusts (nobody else wants them)

- Magic Stars (nobody else wants them)

- Arena Topping (as does every single other character)

She doesn't get multiple inbase boosters. She doesn't get dracoshields. She doesn't get speedwings.

She probably will need a speedwing later. Its hard enough to get units like Luke and Sirius to double reliably, let alone Linde who only has an 8 AS base. Her 70% speed growth is not enough for her to keep up.

She doesn't get Arms Scrolls. The only possibly contestible item here is a single Angelic Robe, which lets Linde 2HKO Dracoknights (and by extension everything else in the universe) solo AND counter them, something shared earlygame by only My Unit, and only roided out Fighter / AK builds that somehow already have 27 Mt with Iron in Ch3. This alone is enough to earn her the EXP to promote by the valley, and Def/Res gap means she's doing between 6 and 10 more damage per attack than any other unit with comparable MT in the game. Aura compensates for base MAG until you get Dusts / stars, and 75% speed growth kicks in to cover her speed. Sure she's not doubling everything, but she's still doing in 1 hit what most do in 2, and it's not like doubling is a common trait among characters in this game.

Here's the thing: by buying Linde a Robe, you are essentially paying 2500 gold for what basically amounts to an extra chipper. The optimal way to use mages is to have them chip at something and then have another unit finish it off without taking a counter. That doesn't really lend itself well to steady exp gain. Its also absurd that because Linde can take one dracoknight attack with a robe that she can somehow gain a lot of levels. Everyone has already said it, but I think I need to drill it into your skull: It's hard enough getting Catria and Luke to promotion and they have better combat and mobility and are at a higher level when Linde arrives. And these guys are some of the best units in the game so how is it no problem to get Linde up to promotion? Also how do we know you're not just unconsciously sandbagging other units when you're feeding Linde levels? I mean it happens a lot when people use a mid tier or lower unit, they're so keen on getting them exp to keep up that it negatively affects other unit's exp gain.

As for your comparisons regarding Linde's "unique" talent in doing 20 damage in an enemy phase against a dracoknight, I would like to point out that no its not that hard to get MU to match or beat that. Female Mage MU ties or beats Linde obviously. Fighter MU can achieve 27 attack easily with a Steel Axe which you conveniently left out. Myrmidon MU can get to Fighter MU's level as a Cavalier with Rainbow Potion and a Lady Sword. Base Draug and 7/0 Rody can match her damage as Pirates with a Rainbow Potion use. Dracoknights are also only one type of enemy in the game and Chapter 3 is only one chapter, so its pretty amusing to see you with your dick in your hand yelling about how Linde's exp is soooo good just because she can deal decent damage against one enemy type in one chapter of the game.

Plus Linde is really useless in a lot of her maps anyway. She's pretty bad in 3x, she's awful in Chapter 4 (needs the rainbow potion in addition to the Robe just to avoid being OHKO'd by Pirates and she still gets ORKO'd by thieves), she's pretty bad in Chapter 6 because her low move hinders her and she can't double Armors unless she's at like, 9/0 w/Rainbow Potion at the earliest and she doesn't 2HKO/2RKO stuff without Aura. Chapter 7 is terrible for her because of the forests and she needs the Rainbow Potion to avoid getting doubled by the Paladins and Snipers in chapter 8. She's also terrible in Chapter 9 as well. In order to avoid getting ORKO'd by Dracoknights, she needs to be at 14/0 w/Rainbow Potion. She's also 2HKOd by the Mages too. She doesn't contribute to Chapter 10, 10x is lol. Chapter 13 demands she be at 16/0 w/Rainbow Potion or be promoted to avoid being raped by Wyverns and her offense is pretty mediocre. To 2HKO, we either need Aura or Shaver but its unlikely we have Shaver because Shaver is a giant piece of shit and we're not likely to go to that village.

Really do I have to go on? Linde doesn't contribute anything of noteworthy significance except for being a Gharnef killer but we have like a million people who can do it. No way is she better than Arran or Ryan. Arran tapers off by Chapter 8 or 9 but he's just ridiculously clutch in the earlygame, you really don't have a way to do the chapters without him. Ryan can also 2HKO dracoknights like Linde can for free (no robe needed) and he can OHKO them with a forge, including the Chapter 2 boss, plus he's good as a Sniper lategame and he can even have a future as a Horseman if you're so inclined.

[grandjackal]

She probably will need a speedwing later. Its hard enough to get units like Luke and Sirius to double reliably, let alone Linde who only has an 8 AS base. Her 70% speed growth is not enough for her to keep up.

Here's the thing: by buying Linde a Robe, you are essentially paying 2500 gold for what basically amounts to an extra chipper. The optimal way to use mages is to have them chip at something and then have another unit finish it off without taking a counter. That doesn't really lend itself well to steady exp gain. Its also absurd that because Linde can take one dracoknight attack with a robe that she can somehow gain a lot of levels. Everyone has already said it, but I think I need to drill it into your skull: It's hard enough getting Catria and Luke to promotion and they have better combat and mobility and are at a higher level when Linde arrives. And these guys are some of the best units in the game so how is it no problem to get Linde up to promotion? Also how do we know you're not just unconsciously sandbagging other units when you're feeding Linde levels? I mean it happens a lot when people use a mid tier or lower unit, they're so keen on getting them exp to keep up that it negatively affects other unit's exp gain.

Misconceptions, maybe it's hard enough to get these units promotions because these units are not good, much less "the best units in the game". I mean, we don't argue that units in other games are good despite a terrible time getting to promotion, do we?

Secondly, you make it sound like a mage's role is set in stone and that if a mage is taking kills, it is therefore bad. Think for a minute on what a mage actually is. It takes a hit and counters back, and sure a mage can donate that kill, but in the case of Linde she can nab the kill, and then go on to punch something else, even heal up off her offense if she so desires so she can do it again without a healer or vuln turn. Take that in turn with Luke or Catria. They block something and until like Luke or Catria get huge, they don't actually do substantial damage, more often than not they need help. Even if they didn't, that's all they can do before they're forced to heal since as frontliners they don't have the luxury since otherwise they will get smoked if they try.

Or is it cause their mounted? Catria fine, but Luke's stats on a horse are actually kinda bad. So for this sandbagging argument, perhaps it is mistaken for what is actually earning the kills. I'm only speaking as a second hand though, and not directly though, just the angles of your arguments are kinda bland. I thought we were off this "sandbagging" crap a long time ago.

As for your comparisons regarding Linde's "unique" talent in doing 20 damage in an enemy phase against a dracoknight, I would like to point out that no its not that hard to get MU to match or beat that. Female Mage MU ties or beats Linde obviously. Fighter MU can achieve 27 attack easily with a Steel Axe which you conveniently left out. Myrmidon MU can get to Fighter MU's level as a Cavalier with Rainbow Potion and a Lady Sword. Base Draug and 7/0 Rody can match her damage as Pirates with a Rainbow Potion use. Dracoknights are also only one type of enemy in the game and Chapter 3 is only one chapter, so its pretty amusing to see you with your dick in your hand yelling about how Linde's exp is soooo good just because she can deal decent damage against one enemy type in one chapter of the game.

Female MU not only does not have access to Aura, but she also can't go Noble Child due to how her Prologue works, so her speed base+growth on top of it compared to Linde is awful, therefore unsustainable and does not actually earn the kills+due to speed, can't do the same job anyways. Fighter MU and Myrm MU likewise have the problem of needing to heal after every time they run into an enemy. Draug and Rody lack the range Linde has, and still have the whole healing problem, especially their pisspoor defenses might require extra resources to get back to full quickly.

By the way, I would think if you wanted to make Linde look bad, you wouldn't be comparing her to MU of all people.

There is also chapter 5 along with the fact that Shiida cannot be everywhere at once. Cavaliers are gigantic assholes to deal with, and Linde makes them manageable. There are Armors, in which in the least, magic chip helps us not waste uses of Wing Spear/Armorslayer. I mean, who's the one assuming Linde has only one use here?

Plus Linde is really useless in a lot of her maps anyway. She's pretty bad in 3x, she's awful in Chapter 4 (needs the rainbow potion in addition to the Robe just to avoid being OHKO'd by Pirates and she still gets ORKO'd by thieves), she's pretty bad in Chapter 6 because her low move hinders her and she can't double Armors unless she's at like, 9/0 w/Rainbow Potion at the earliest and she doesn't 2HKO/2RKO stuff without Aura. Chapter 7 is terrible for her because of the forests and she needs the Rainbow Potion to avoid getting doubled by the Paladins and Snipers in chapter 8. She's also terrible in Chapter 9 as well. In order to avoid getting ORKO'd by Dracoknights, she needs to be at 14/0 w/Rainbow Potion. She's also 2HKOd by the Mages too. She doesn't contribute to Chapter 10, 10x is lol. Chapter 13 demands she be at 16/0 w/Rainbow Potion or be promoted to avoid being raped by Wyverns and her offense is pretty mediocre. To 2HKO, we either need Aura or Shaver but its unlikely we have Shaver because Shaver is a giant piece of shit and we're not likely to go to that village.

Everyone lacking wings sucks in 3x, which has like 5 unit slots anyways. Chapter 4, that is actually quite the voided measurement since in chapter 4, the guys at the start should be trying to kill nearly everyone manageable before enemy phase anyways. You shouldn't HAVE to take a hit. In fact, you would think Linde would help in this undertaking. Chapter 6 I could just point to the Hero and ask you to find me a better person to smack him from range and call it a day, but otherwise I will ust point out the whole chip still saves weapon uses thing. Chapter 7 again sucks for everyone without wings. Chapter 8...Well, SDS has his own thoughts on that so I won't speak, especially since I forgot how to do 8. Chapter 9 is a another ludicrous problem, as that's another "just go out and kill them" thing. We can just keep the huge dracoknight problem from ever happening. Again, probably a thing Linde helps with, considering as a mage she can walk the desert sands freely. No one contributes to 10 cause 10 might as well not exist. Chapter 13 is level dependent, so I think we should solidify levels before we go that far.

As for Shaver, it's that or Kashim. Which sounds better, honestly?

Really do I have to go on? Linde doesn't contribute anything of noteworthy significance except for being a Gharnef killer but we have like a million people who can do it. No way is she better than Arran or Ryan. Arran tapers off by Chapter 8 or 9 but he's just ridiculously clutch in the earlygame, you really don't have a way to do the chapters without him. Ryan can also 2HKO dracoknights like Linde can for free (no robe needed) and he can OHKO them with a forge, including the Chapter 2 boss, plus he's good as a Sniper lategame and he can even have a future as a Horseman if you're so inclined.

The argument about Arran could probably be made for anyone else existing that early on, since every last hand helps you not get your face mauled. Arran just happens to stand out due to just being good at the time, but I'd ay we're just as dependent on everyone else. Also, that Forge is more expensive than 2500, and we can just opt to give it to Gordon. As for Ryan being good lategame, I question that logic. If you think Linde's speed is "bad", Ryan's is unsalvageable. Not even the +5 from promotion's gonna save him. I know I was talking about him earlier, but it was mostly his prologue schtick.

As for "doesn't contribute anything", I would argue even the base of just another chipper is better than most in this game can even claim.

Aura alone should at least grant her a position out of Low at minimum. For fucks sakes, that's where Bord is.

Just throwing my 2 cents. My large 2 cents I guess. Kinda wanna talk Draug really. He's basically Rody's rank on a unit with better speed than both of the starting cavs, and in turn isn't exp sunk into Luke or Rody. You don't need to invest levels in Luke or Rody for them to contribute what you need them to for like chapter 1 and 2, so it's not like you're desperate to get one of the two to the levels needed. Not only does this make Draug just look appealing (though really, we need to solidify what he's doing, cause I heavily disagree with Pirate off the bat), but it also asks the question of what else can we do with the prologue exp we normally would give to Luke/Rody?

[eclipse]

Uh, what exactly is "unsalvageable Speed growth?" Ryan the Archer has 50%, which isn't horrid in my books. I'll agree that Aura means that Linde probably shouldn't be in Low, but that doesn't necessarily mean she needs to be sitting on top of Upper Mid.

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I intend to move Arran to Unique Utility since he is a character that is essentially 100% obligatory for the first couple chapters, then utterly useless after that. He is the truest of Jeigans*, and no placement accurately reflects his utility for the team. As for Linde vs Ryan, I'll take arguments on that, but I see no reason for her to go below Merric, and straight up "she is useless" is obnoxious rehashed sandbagging that has been covered plenty of times before.

I'm not sure Ryan's speed growth is "unsalvageable", and I think Ryan may have gotten a bit of a short shrift, but he can probably stand to go down anyway now that we're not counting prologue.

[grandjackal]

Uh, what exactly is "unsalvageable Speed growth?" Ryan the Archer has 50%, which isn't horrid in my books. I'll agree that Aura means that Linde probably shouldn't be in Low, but that doesn't necessarily mean she needs to be sitting on top of Upper Mid.

I said his speed in general is unsalvageable, not just his growth. 50% is fine if you already had good speed. When you have a base of 0, 50% cuts no mustard.

[PKL]

I said his speed in general is unsalvageable, not just his growth. 50% is fine if you already had good speed. When you have a base of 0, 50% cuts no mustard.

I think his spd is far from unsalvageable. Hunter gives +2 spd and he can get a lot of exp just from DKs alone, which is his job. If you are training him, he will be at a decent Level by Chapter 11 that he can get a Seal and help you out with the wyverns. I dont know a good level estimate by then for a trained Ryan, but he's obviously not getting doubled (not like it would matter against wyverns) and very likely to OHKO Wyverns with Silver Bow/Steel Bow forge. It's not too hard for him to also be able to double Ice Dragons in Chapter 13/14 and he MIGHT be able to help out with the 13x strat by being the "bulky Sniper". Then it will probably get better and better for him from there on. It's true he would appreciate a Speedwing though.

Edited December 20, 2012 by HORSEBIRD

[grandjackal]

I think his spd is far from unsalvageable. Hunter gives +2 spd and he can get a lot of exp just from DKs alone, which is his job. If you are training him, he will be at a decent Level by Chapter 11 that he can get a Seal and help you out with the wyverns. I dont know a good level estimate by then for a trained Ryan, but he's obviously not getting doubled (not like it would matter against wyverns) and very likely to OHKO Wyverns with Silver Bow/Steel Bow forge. It's not too hard for him to also be able to double Ice Dragons in Chapter 13/14 and he MIGHT be able to help out with the 13x strat by being the "bulky Sniper". Then it will probably get better and better for him from there on. It's true he would appreciate a Speedwing though.

You are incredibly vague with this post. Describe decent level by chapter 11, or why I should care when I have Sirius/Minerva/George for Flying Dragons? Could even throw in Horace with a weapon scroll if I were so bold. Ice Dragons also require 20 speed, something Ryan is not going to hit in his lifetime that early (I refuse to believe Ryan somehow gets 20/2 around this point, or that we'd leave him as an archer/hunter that long). Then furthermore, the wing on someone who can only ever go Sniper? In your dreams.

This brings us back to Linde, what with the speed and all. At around the same level, Linde has more/the same speed if Ryan got lucky with a level proc, and has 20% better growth on him. I can also tell you personally that Ryan does not get a significant level lead on her even if you have been training him. If Ryan's speed is "fine", then I doubt Linde is having any issues, especially with how much more flexible her combat is allowing her to get exp from other sources. As for the wing, the wings are very valuable items, of which are probably going to more capable hands. In comparison to the robes, not many can get a significant boost out of them except for say Sirius maybe. I'm sure we can give a spare to Linde.

[Dark Sage]

Misconceptions, maybe it's hard enough to get these units promotions because these units are not good, much less "the best units in the game". I mean, we don't argue that units in other games are good despite a terrible time getting to promotion, do we?

ahahahha Catrria and Luke are not good, very funny man. very funny

Secondly, you make it sound like a mage's role is set in stone and that if a mage is taking kills, it is therefore bad. Think for a minute on what a mage actually is. It takes a hit and counters back, and sure a mage can donate that kill, but in the case of Linde she can nab the kill, and then go on to punch something else, even heal up off her offense if she so desires so she can do it again without a healer or vuln turn.

Actually Linde is balls at using Nosferatu even with an Robe despite what you and SDS claim. If Linde takes an attack on an enemy phase, she is usually left with a sliver of health left and her damage is not enough to take a second blow. This does not only apply to Dracoknights by the way. Every enemy with Silver or a forge (read: nealy all of them) is going to do this. The only thing that Linde is able to Nosferatu tank against is Javelin Cavs/Knights. Maybe Hunters.

Take that in turn with Luke or Catria. They block something and until like Luke or Catria get huge, they don't actually do substantial damage, more often than not they need help. Even if they didn't, that's all they can do before they're forced to heal since as frontliners they don't have the luxury since otherwise they will get smoked if they try.

Base Catria w/Rainbow Potion and Steel Lance does the exact same damage that Linde does with Aura. 7/0 Luke can also do so as a Pirate or Mercenary w/Rainbow Potion can also do so. Catria and Pirate Luke can also contribute to the 2nd half of Chapter 3 by the way because of their class's mobility. Also Linde does not have any sort of durability advantage like you claim because as I said earlier, Linde cannot heal enough HP back with Nosferatu to survive another round.

Or is it cause their mounted? Catria fine, but Luke's stats on a horse are actually kinda bad. So for this sandbagging argument, perhaps it is mistaken for what is actually earning the kills. I'm only speaking as a second hand though, and not directly though, just the angles of your arguments are kinda bland. I thought we were off this "sandbagging" crap a long time ago.

I am accusing you and SDS of sandbagging because that is exactly what your are doing. You are hyping Linde up because she can take a hit and do around 20 damage to something on an enemy phase and then proceed to shit on units who can do the exact same thing without needing to take a Robe to do so.

Female MU not only does not have access to Aura, but she also can't go Noble Child due to how her Prologue works, so her speed base+growth on top of it compared to Linde is awful, therefore unsustainable and does not actually earn the kills+due to speed, can't do the same job anyways.

Oh right, I forgot that only Linde can use Aura early.

Fighter MU and Myrm MU likewise have the problem of needing to heal after every time they run into an enemy. Draug and Rody lack the range Linde has, and still have the whole healing problem, especially their pisspoor defenses might require extra resources to get back to full quickly.

As I said, Linde has the same healing problem that all these units have.

By the way, I would think if you wanted to make Linde look bad, you wouldn't be comparing her to MU of all people.

How about you read the post? SDS claimed that only a "ridiculous Fighter/Armor MU build" could compare to Linde's damage output. I was clarifying that this was not the case. In fact, I listed other units besides various MUs such as Draug and Rody.

There is also chapter 5 along with the fact that Shiida cannot be everywhere at once. Cavaliers are gigantic assholes to deal with, and Linde makes them manageable.

On the first wave, Sheeda can OHKO one of the cavs with a forge. Sirius can 2HKO them and can even ORKO the 11 AS ones a rainbow potion use. Marth can dish out heavy damage with a Rapier, either setting up a kill for someone else or finishing off a paritally weakened one. Palla is one-rounding with Silver and Arran 2HKOs. You also have Barst to help out with chipping. I wouldn't say Linde is unhelpful here, but you are overestimating the threat of the cavaliers. I'll admit she is useful for helping to set up a kill for Marth, Catria, or our Altean cav.

There are Armors, in which in the least, magic chip helps us not waste uses of Wing Spear/Armorslayer.

Aura only has 25 uses and you do not get a replacement until Chapter 20x. The Aura chip saves no Wing Spear uses (since the forge can OHKO) and only one Armorslayer use. Btw she'd be in range of the stonehoist ballista and if one hits her, she can't heal back the damage that a Javelin armor would do to her. I guess if you kill the boss and the the stonehoist ballista fast enough its not so much of a problem though.

I mean, who's the one assuming Linde has only one use here?

This remark does not make any sense.

Everyone lacking wings sucks in 3x, which has like 5 unit slots anyways.

Fair enough.

Chapter 4, that is actually quite the voided measurement since in chapter 4, the guys at the start should be trying to kill nearly everyone manageable before enemy phase anyways. You shouldn't HAVE to take a hit. In fact, you would think Linde would help in this undertaking.

Lidne is likely going to be chipping one enemy and then blocking a fort. That's not bad persay but she's not going to able to do anything for the rest chapter.

Chapter 6 I could just point to the Hero and ask you to find me a better person to smack him from range and call it a day, but otherwise I will ust point out the whole chip still saves weapon uses thing.

IIRC, you do not even need to kill the Hero in this chapter. Her chip is kind of helpful I guess, though not for the reasons you're claiming.

Chapter 9 is a another ludicrous problem, as that's another "just go out and kill them" thing. We can just keep the huge dracoknight problem from ever happening. Again, probably a thing Linde helps with, considering as a mage she can walk the desert sands freely.

Linde gets raped if she even steps in range of one dracoknight. These guys are pretty hard to kill btw without MU, a sniper with a Steel Forge, or MU. She is much better against mages is she gets the gets Aquarius, a magic boosting shard and a Pure Water though.

As for Shaver, it's that or Kashim. Which sounds better, honestly?

Castor actually because the Killer Bow is a better weapon. Plus you're probably going to be burning a rescue charge in Chapter 4 anyway so you might as well just recruit him.

Also, that Forge is more expensive than 2500, and we can just opt to give it to Gordon.

You cannot penalize Ryan for the forge because even if we don't use Ryan, the forge will still exist.

As for Ryan being good lategame, I question that logic. If you think Linde's speed is "bad", Ryan's is unsalvageable. Not even the +5 from promotion's gonna save him. I know I was talking about him earlier, but it was mostly his prologue schtick.

But Ryan has uses besides simply chipping an enemy. For one, he is capable of OHKOing flying enemies and his strength growth is pretty high. This is pretty significant even as late as the valley because Dracoknights and Wyverns are a giant bitch and you're going to want to kill them as quickly as possible. Ryan is also a little more flexible in his class selection too. For example, Ryan likes Swordmaster because of its speed and because it can help him build up his sword rank for Horseman.

Aura alone should at least grant her a position out of Low at minimum. For fucks sakes, that's where Bord is.

Linde is not in Low so I don't know what the fuck you're talking about.

btw its important to note the costs of the robe we're getting Linde. First off, Linde is in competition with Cecile, who probably gets a greater benefit out of it than Linde does. For one, it means Cecile no longer gets OHKOd by things, meaning she can frontline about as well as Luke and Rody. Not only that, Cecile is fast and mobile unlike Linde. Not only does she have access to the Lady Sword but she also has access to the Armorslayer and Wyrmslayer, whereas Lidne has no effective weaponry besides Shaver (which is shit). Cecil is also much more flexible than Linde and can be good in a variety of physical classes whereas Linde is stuck to Sage or Bishop (I guess Swordmaster once you put enough Dusts into her and you get enough Levin Swords). Alterantively if you're not using Cecile, you can spend that 2500 on a Speedwing for Luke or Rody. This is actually really helpful because it can allow them to double as Cavaliers, so you're essentially getting a second Catria or MU. For example an 8/0 Luke w/Speedwing and a RP use 3HKOs the Dracoknights and ORKOs the cavaliers with a Steel Sword as a Cavalier in Chapter 3. Even if he is at 7/0, he still 2RKOs the Dracos and leaves the cavs with a sliver of health. Rody has an identical performance. The speedwing also has long term applications too so its a pretty good investment and I'd say a much better one than spending 2500 on a Robe for Linde. I know these guys are a tier up on Linde but you cannot simply ignore the costs.

[dondon151]

first of all grandjackal you can get lowest turns on most maps without linde, so please don't try to pass off her possible contributions as actual contributions.

second, most FE12 objectives can be completed with a good team effort, so nosferatanking is not really even that useful.

Misconceptions, maybe it's hard enough to get these units promotions because these units are not good, much less "the best units in the game". I mean, we don't argue that units in other games are good despite a terrible time getting to promotion, do we?

uh, no, maybe it's because it's really fucking difficult to get 5 unpromoted units to L14-16 in a game where the enemy density is pretty low.

I can also tell you personally that Ryan does not get a significant level lead on her even if you have been training him.

what? of course he does! ryan comes out of the prologue at 3/-- if you neglect him a bit. he exists for chapters 1 and 2 and takes the chapter 2 bosskill if you opt to go for the safe strategy. we're talking, like, a ~3 level lead here when linde joins. after that they are basically trying to kill or chip the same stuff, since they have the same movement, but ryan is way better at outright killing DKs whereas linde is better at killing armors (and linde doesn't double armors until 11/-- on average). so any advantage in EXP gain that linde has from facing more combat is at least balanced by ryan annihilating DKs for more EXP.

now PKL has a pretty rosy experience with ryan so i think he overestimates him by a fair bit, but you and SDS do the same with linde to a more egregious extent.

Edited December 21, 2012 by HORSEBlRD