Tell me how wrong this person is

[Luna]

Well, if we assume true RNG, which it isn't---you can't really create true randomness, but merely a string of pre-generated numbers that gets created from a mathematical algorithm---

the chances of Seth getting no stat up on any given level up, without capped stats, are:

(.1x.5x.55x.55x.75x.6x.7)=0.00476=.4%

The chances of that happening twice is extremely slim. Sorry man.

Chances of it happening twice are even worse. But the possibility is still there. Maybe I'm the only person in the world to manage something THAT spectacularly failurely.

You pretty much just explained why personal experience is worthless

Except when it comes down to it, it's personal experience that determines how the character actually turns out for you. What does it matter how he's supposed to turn out if he turns out crap?

There's a difference between using characters you like and using characters you like and expecting them to be the Same each time.

There is truth in this statement, but when they consistently turn out well for you, especially when you don't necessarily play statistically speaking (mind you, I picked up this game when I was, i think, 8 okay? Gimme a break. I had no idea that there were even statistics for growths until recently, and then I payed no attention to them because by then I had beaten the game at least 4 or 5 times with a more files that had only made it to the early chapters (earliest was like chapter 2 before I erased it) to latter chapters (latest was the last chapter before the demon king) and had worked out what does and does not work for me.)

Please read this post.

I can recognize and concede that the logic behind this post makes sense and offer no argument in return. Thanks for putting that at least in perspective for me. Possibly the most sense any of this has made to me yet... sorry I'm being difficult, but i've been playing how I've been playing for such a long time, that I'm probably gonna need time to adjust to the general ruling of the forum...

[Florete]

Except when it comes down to it, it's personal experience that determines how the character actually turns out for you. What does it matter how he's supposed to turn out if he turns out crap?

True, for you. He'll turn out differently for me, and probably at least slightly different for everyone. But when we're trying to judge units we can't have people saying "He sucks!" and others saying "He's great!" because of what happened to them personally. We need a more concrete way of determining how useful he will be on average, and that's why we have average stats, which use a character's growth rates to determine that characters most likely stat distribution at any given level.

Truth be told, Seth's average stats past level 1 have little to do with his usefulness as a unit. He could have 0% growths and probably still be considered the best unit in the game. He starts so amazing and it takes anyone else so long to catch up to him, and by then the game is easier regardless. Not only his combat, but also his utility in Rescuing is around forever, and he's a great support partner for Eirika.

There is truth in this statement, but when they consistently turn out well for you, especially when you don't necessarily play statistically speaking

Due to the nature of this game, just about everyone can turn out reasonably good.

sorry I'm being difficult, but i've been playing how I've been playing for such a long time, that I'm probably gonna need time to adjust to the general ruling of the forum...

Of course. I was the same at one point. I know how it feels. I've remained calm in all of this (as opposed to saying things like "U thik seth sucks, lol yoo stoopid") because I can see where you're coming from.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Luna]

I really appreciate it. Thank you.

[Rewjeo]

That's a bit harsh. After all, he didn't make this thread, he just came in and tried to defend himself.

It wasn't meant in a harsh way. I meant that no one cares if you like to use Seth or not, but that what bothers them is when you say something objectively incorrect.

And as for you being difficult... Not at all! Most people's response is "NO I'M RITE YOUR STUPID" and you respond by saying "Oh, that makes sense." You are probably among the least difficult new members I've very seen.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Rewjeo

[Anouleth]

Can I just clear up that Joe only showed you 2 quotes from an argument we had that spanned, perhaps, 2 hours? I have used Seth many, many times, and only recently stopped using him because I feel he detracts from my team. Yes, he can beat the whole game, but for me, he has consistently turned out mediocre by that point, even when I get him to level 20. I concede that he is a great character, especially in the beginning, but I also maintain that as the game progresses, his value steadily decreases. I would also like to submit that I have played through the game without using the tower of valni to level grind, and using seth as much as possible, and I have remained able to consistently make characters that are regarded as useless apparently, such as Lute, Natasha, Marisa, and Neimi the best characters on my team. I apologize that we can't meet eye to eye, but this is how I see it, and you may think I'm a mediocre player of fire emblem for saying so, but I don't even get the point of playing the game "efficiently". Why rush? Why not slow down and enjoy the game a while? If I want to slow down and cultivate characters to the extent that they outclass Seth to the nth degree, I can do that, and I don't deserve arguments and crap about what I think is right or wrong and what all of you think is right or wrong. Maybe personal experience doesn't matter to you, but it does to me. Why shouldn't it matter? Just because statistics say seth should turn out such and such a way doesn't mean he will. Personally, he's turned out good to mediocre. For you he could turn out excellent or worse than crap. To be honest, I can't see why personal experience isn't worth anything either. Of course, all of you completely understand all of this, so I can predict a million different responses to this in favor of efficiency and against personal experience... >_<

Well, Seth is the only character that can realistically reach level 20 in the first place, and an average or even below average level 20 Seth is still capable of dealing with most things in this game.

But ultimately, it's your choice whether to use him or not! I don't like using him myself.

Please read this post.

Someone seriously tried to debate Sothe against Volke?

Since when are Lute and Natasha considered useless? Even Neimi isn't exactly terrible. Marisa sucks, though, but being FE8 no one is truly hard to use.

Since people started playing this game efficiently. Lute has all the same problems that mages typically suffer from - lack of durability, movement and speed. Lack of durability hampers her in Rout maps. Lack of speed hampers her against bosses (as does lack of durability, most lategame bosses are borderline OHKOing her). Lack of mobility hampers her everywhere. Neimi has the same problems, but with less of an issue for durability and speed. No idea about Natasha though, she's a second Moulder.

And if you really want to get into it, very few Fire Emblem characters are truly 'hard' to use. It's just that in a lot of cases, it's not worth the effort.

It wasn't meant in a harsh way. I meant that no one cares if you like to use Seth or not, but that what bothers them is when you say something objectively incorrect.

And as for you being difficult... Not at all! Most people's response is "NO I'M RITE YOUR STUPID" and you respond by saying "Oh, that makes sense." You are probably among the least difficult new members I've very seen.

Yes, it's almost a little bit disappointing how reasonable he's being. I was good and ready for a nice flame war.

[Florete]

Someone seriously tried to debate Sothe against Volke?

2008, buddy. And Radiant Dawn. And Lyle Dayek. (And that "someone" is me)

Edited December 3, 2010 by Sadistic Fox

[Salad Utensil]

It doesn't take much for him to literally beat the whole game by himself. Even with stats below his averages, given FE8's difficulty or therelackof, cap-ramming doesn't matter at all (and honestly, it doesn't take much blessing for Seth to cap-ram STR anyway).

It's easy enough for him to solo most the game with only 12 speed (that is, 24÷2---with Eirika rescued especially in the later times when her bases will get her OHKO'd), what do you mean, mediocrity?

Or maybe you S-ranked his lances. Audhulma is much better for him IMO. It does wonders.

I give that I, as SF's representative Seth fangirl, has done his solorun twice- once for the lulz to see how badly he destroys everything, and another more serious one on HM.

Not using him, again, is complete fine since he is fully capable of easily soloing the game thus destroying any sort of difficulty FE8 ever possibly had, but calling him mediocre? That's just... not right.

Wow the poor guy says Seth is mediocre and everyone suddenly has to turn against him even though it seems like he wasn't even properly represented in the first place.

Even though I don't post much in this forum, the general consensus is that a character fulfilling conditions defined by making the game easier to play efficiently would therefore be considered better than characters that would not be able to those extents. People suggest that efficiency is the only way to determine which characters are better because turncounts are objectively measurable. But why does a videogame have to be so objectively played, when beating a game is only one out of many aspect the game offers?

It is implied that it is uncouth to value a character with bad join time because they max stats and have flashing green numbers in the status menu. What was the counter argument for this again? Because it wastes time? When instead of posting in a forum about imaginary videogame characters I could be finishing my college apps or instead of wasting 12 hours beating a Fire Emblem I spend 10 hours...In other word it is the choice of the player to decide to spend more time on the game if it would make it more enjoyable. In economic terms this is for some people in the world, they derive more total utility for spending more time in a game compared to finishing it ASAP while others believe playing fire emblem is like doing homework where it must be finished ASAP in order to enjoy other things in life more, like playing more fire emblem or in this example switching from English to Linear Algebra.

However, this mindset and this view that the game must be played objectively somewhat defeats the purpose of playing games for some people...doesn't it? Luna never did claim that he had this objective method that most people in this forum uses for determining what characters are better or not. In fact his posts bring up that using Seth isn't fun because some people find playing games more enjoyable without playing efficiently. The PEMN argument doesn't apply considering he plays fire emblem for fun and his idea of fun doesn't have to be beating the game as fast as possible. Since only his personal experience matters in his idea of fun Seth is thus mediocre. Even raw stat averages, joining conditions, and weapons levels don't matter when playing a game for enjoyment may be more satisfying for one to turn cute Lute into astute [broken 20/20 sage with maxed stats] Lute. If Seth got stat screwed and he has a character he put tons of effort into, guess which character is mediocre and which is broken. It is a fact because ingame is what you experience while people you don't know are telling you that your eyes and brain are lying to you.

Also I find Seth's blank stare downward kind of creepy especially when it looks like he is looking inappropriately at other PCs

[Inui]

Seth can rape almost the whole game even without blessed stats, but some chapters he can't even handle that well on average due to being so balanced. The chapter when you're defending teh p0pe comes to mind.

[Thor Odinson]

Read the OP. The whole argument started because of that.

And Fire Emblem itself is a strategy game. Totally unrealistic strategy, granted, but still a strategy game. Sometimes when you go too slow, it loses it's strategical side to it, doesn't it? I for one am all for Seth soloing the game and screw turncounts, but that's just me.

Now that Luna's cleared everything up it's fine, but before when we thought he was just saying that Seth is mediocre, as an overall unit, is an inaccurate statement.

Dude. I take that to my advantage. It's more fun when he's staring into my lack of cleavage. I'd like that. See signature for more details.

Seth can rape almost the whole game even without blessed stats, but some chapters he can't even handle that well on average due to being so balanced. The chapter when you're defending teh p0pe comes to mind.

Boots+Javelins/Audhulma=3 turn just before the reinforcements come. You'd miss out on the treasure unless you send Franz/Duessel/Cormag/whoever with some keys over or something and grab that speedwing, but everything else isn't too important anyway.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Luminescent Blade

[Anouleth]

2008, buddy. And Radiant Dawn. And Lyle Dayek. (And that "someone" is me)

Oh, sorry, I wrote Sothe and Volke down in the wrong order, I mean to express disbelief that someone thought Volke>Sothe.

Dunno who Lyle Dayek was either. And were people really that stupid in 2008? I'd have thought we'd have cottoned on that Sothe kicked ass by then.

[Florete]

Dunno who Lyle Dayek was either. And were people really that stupid in 2008? I'd have thought we'd have cottoned on that Sothe kicked ass by then.

Lyle Dayek was (and probably still is) one of those classic Sothe haters that kicks reason to the curb in an attempt to justify their hatred. And yes, people were pretty stupid on this forum in 2008.

[Salad Utensil]

Read the OP. The whole argument started because of that.

And Fire Emblem itself is a strategy game. Totally unrealistic strategy, granted, but still a strategy game. Sometimes when you go too slow, it loses it's strategical side to it, doesn't it? I for one am all for Seth soloing the game and screw turncounts, but that's just me.

Now that Luna's cleared everything up it's fine, but before when we thought he was just saying that Seth is mediocre, as an overall unit, is an inaccurate statement.

Dude. I take that to my advantage. It's more fun when he's staring into my lack of cleavage. I'd like that. See signature for more details.

Eh I guess if he really felt that way, because to me it seemed more like everyone was against him so he had to submit to social pressure (and the topic name doesn't help). I don't really want to put words in his mouth either so...I won't press the issue more.

Even if FE is a strategy game it doesn't help that there are many RPG elements and is forgiving enough to allow you to use any character you want (except like Wendy, Sophia, and Lyle).

It's only inaccurate depending on the terms, but the TC probably just misrepresented Luna like you said.

Umm...ok...

Edited December 3, 2010 by Brighton

[Thor Odinson]

It's just the ease and effort needed to put into each character. There's some characters that are just, on average, easier to use than others. Honestly, I couldn't care how people want to play the game, I'm just here to defend Seth.

You see... I am SF's representative Seth fangirl. Would that explain it better?

[Loki Laufeyson]

but I don't even get the point of playing the game "efficiently". Why rush? Why not slow down and enjoy the game a while?

Ive been asking that question for quite some time now. I guess its because people judge a character by an "efficient playthrough." Meaning how good a character is based on how quick they get through a map. I suppose this is why guys with early join time are usually higher on tier lists along with prepromotes. I personally pay very little attention to this but im gonna assume this is the reasoning behind efficiency arguments. Cuz if you play that way, Seth is amazing. He stomps through everything with no effort and has decent and balanced stats. Plus he can rescue and stuff.

[Junkhead]

I admit he is useful in the first bunch of chapters, but I've actually managed to get him killed before.

I got Haar killed once. Does that mean he sucks? Am I to blame my own incompetence, or the character? If anything, you're just doing it wrong.

but I don't even get the point of playing the game "efficiently". Why rush? Why not slow down and enjoy the game a while? If I want to slow down and cultivate characters to the extent that they outclass Seth to the nth degree

It's funny how most, if not all un-effecient players like to assume effeciency can't be fun. It's also funny how they think that just because it's a game, we can't apply actual logic to it.

2008, buddy. And Radiant Dawn. And Lyle Dayek. (And that "someone" is me)

...There are not enough LOLs to explain this.

[Luna]

Seth can rape almost the whole game even without blessed stats, but some chapters he can't even handle that well on average due to being so balanced. The chapter when you're defending teh p0pe comes to mind.

Actually, that is one of the chapters that comes to mind where Seth was actually absurdly useful back when I still used him a ton. I was tired of just flat out defending for all those turns, so I had him and Myrrh go find Riev, and they slaughtered him. It made the chapter SO much easier. Come to think of it, I have NO idea how I'll manage that this time around because I'm on chapter 15 with Seth at level 5...

Also, I've played plenty of times when I was just playing to beat the game where I was just goin a fast as possible... I just find that I prefer not to do it so uber fast that I for one cannot savor it. I hate being patient, but when I have to be I can be really patient, much to my mother's dismay, who will tell me to do something, then come back less than a minute later and yell at me for not IMMEDIATELY getting up and doing what she said.

I got Haar killed once. Does that mean he sucks? Am I to blame my own incompetence, or the character? If anything, you're just doing it wrong.

Well, yeah, but it was in Chapter 8, on easy mode, against Tirado, wielding a Silver Lance, and back when I used Seth more than practically any other character... and don't chew me out for being stupid, I was like 8 back then... >_<

[Galenforcer]

I'm sorry, but it sounds like your going out of your way to make Seth look bad.

[Florete]

I'm sorry, but it sounds like your going out of your way to make Seth look bad.

When he's got lines like these:

Actually, that is one of the chapters that comes to mind where Seth was actually absurdly useful back when I still used him a ton. I was tired of just flat out defending for all those turns, so I had him and Myrrh go find Riev, and they slaughtered him. It made the chapter SO much easier.

Also, I've played plenty of times when I was just playing to beat the game where I was just goin a fast as possible... I just find that I prefer not to do it so uber fast that I for one cannot savor it.

and don't chew me out for being stupid, I was like 8 back then... >_<

I don't understand how you can still think that.

[RNG Princess]

I guess its the gameplay preference of each person, my favorite type of gameplay is completely different from efficient play ^_^. I like babying and taking my time to finish chapters. I also get bored of using the same characters for every chapter so sometimes I dump somebody for another character. That is how I enjoy playing Fire Emblem, efficient play is fun too since I rarely ever do it :).

I don't like Seth(and every other Jeigan/Ouifaye) as a unit infact I avoid him until chapter 17/18 and by then he's not that great compared to the other characters I raised. When I ignore him for a long time and re-use him, he brings me that feeling I enjoy about babying characters ^_^. However that does not make him inferior to any other character at all, because PEMN.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Strawman]

I used Seth once.

After that I never used him again.

Not for any particular reason really.

[Frosty]

I like the fact that Seth OVERKILLS everything in sight! I gave him A Eirika and B Franz for the lulz and I just watched him crit-blicked and ridiculously laugh at everything thrown at him!

IDK which Hard Mode hack nerfed Seth to a LV15 Cavalier, also did the same stuff, A Eirika, B Franz supports + C7 Knight Crest and turned him into a Great Knight, he still WTF-pwned everything!

I like how Light affinity increases ATK, DEF and CRIT which Seth needs to ROFLstomp the game.... not to mention Seth's affinity, Anima has pretty purdy bonuses!

And for the record, I often get blessed Seths in my playthroughs, growing some RES and lotsa DEF, made me lol hard at Riev's fugly face in C19 and Lyon's sorry ass in C16 and C22! I always give him a go with Audhulma, since his RES tends to be a bit low... but if things look good, I'm going Vidofnir, as for the Hard Mode hack... Making him go Garm made me chuckle!

OH LUMI MAKE ME YOUR SETH ASSISTING FANBOY and SPREAD HOW CRAZY SETH CAN KILL EVERYTHING IN A SEXY DEADLY DELICIOUS WAY!!! *shot*

No matter what happens, I always use Seth... cause I actually find his performance good!

[Luna]

No matter what happens, I always use Seth... cause I acutally find his performance good!

So I gathered by the statement above that...

OH LUMI MAKE ME YOUR SETH ASSISTING FANBOY and SPREAD HOW CRAZY SETH CAN KILL EVERYTHING IN A SEXY DEADLY DELICIOUS WAY!!! *shot*

That one. ^^^

and Lyon's sorry ass in C16 and C22!

You mean C17. C16 is when they take back Castle Renais... or whatever they call the castle...

Edited December 4, 2010 by Luna

[Frosty]

My mind got mixed with C16 and C17.... OH WELL! Speaking of that.... Seth crit-killing Orson is definitely worth watching!

[Naglfar]

Wow the poor guy says Seth is mediocre and everyone suddenly has to turn against him even though it seems like he wasn't even properly represented in the first place.

True, people on this site seem to like jumping on unsuspecting one-pips.

Even though I don't post much in this forum, the general consensus is that a character fulfilling conditions defined by making the game easier to play efficiently would therefore be considered better than characters that would not be able to those extents. People suggest that efficiency is the only way to determine which characters are better because turncounts are objectively measurable. But why does a videogame have to be so objectively played, when beating a game is only one out of many aspect the game offers?

It doesn't have to be played that way, but it must be assumed to be played that way if we are to gauge how good units are, especially in relation to each other, with any accuracy at all. Think: if you want to figure out if a unit is "good", will you weigh their performance when you're playing to win with emphasis on efficiency and turncount, when every detail is critical, or when you're playing slowly and casually, when the differences between units are blurred by babying and such? Obviously the former.

It is implied that it is uncouth to value a character with bad join time because they max stats and have flashing green numbers in the status menu. What was the counter argument for this again? Because it wastes time?

Because it wastes turns and resources, actually.

However, this mindset and this view that the game must be played objectively somewhat defeats the purpose of playing games for some people...doesn't it?

Now, this is a mindset that really annoys me. Some number of casual players always seem to assume that competitive, or in this case, efficient players, by explaining to a less-informed casual player what makes a unit good or bad, are forcing "their way of playing" on the casual player (in quotes, because I understand the basic theory of efficiency and like to share my knowledge, but it's far from my preferred way of playing, I like limitation runs), or at least implying that efficient play is the "correct" way. Some assholes do this, but hey, read the page. Not all of us are like that.

Luna never did claim that he had this objective method that most people in this forum uses for determining what characters are better or not. In fact his posts bring up that using Seth isn't fun because some people find playing games more enjoyable without playing efficiently. The PEMN argument doesn't apply considering he plays fire emblem for fun and his idea of fun doesn't have to be beating the game as fast as possible. Since only his personal experience matters in his idea of fun Seth is thus mediocre. Even raw stat averages, joining conditions, and weapons levels don't matter when playing a game for enjoyment may be more satisfying for one to turn cute Lute into astute [broken 20/20 sage with maxed stats] Lute.

Terms like "good" or "mediocre" in the context of Fire Emblem units, refer to a unit's overall usefulness because they are objective words by definition. That's why we have need for words like "fun" and "opinion". Anyway, in the field of unit evaluation, facts matter, opinions do not. Do not assrape the English language by trying to tell us "Seth is a mediocre unit" means "I don't enjoy using Seth". Calling Seth "mediocre" would be incorrect. Note that this is what Luna did at first before revising his point, and this original statement is what people have been calling bullshit on, even though that continued after the point was changed for some reason. Lol people who only read the first post. Not a single person has attacked him for saying Seth isn't fun to use. but I'm sure Lumi thought about it

Here on SF, we respect opinions (most of us do, anyway). But there is a difference between opinion and fact. Many flame wars are started by people who fail to acknowledge this distinction.

If Seth got stat screwed and he has a character he put tons of effort into, guess which character is mediocre and which is broken. It is a fact because ingame is what you experience while people you don't know are telling you that your eyes and brain are lying to you.

"Personal experience means nothing" could be extended to "personal experience means nothing in an argument", which is the context it is always mentioned in. Of course personal experience matters during the specific playthrough it occurs in. Don't be pedantic.

Also I find Seth's blank stare downward kind of creepy especially when it looks like he is looking inappropriately at other PCs

lol

[Narga_Rocks]

Here on SF, we respect opinions (most of us do, anyway). But there is a difference between opinion and fact. Many flame wars are started by people who fail to acknowledge this distinction.

And some rage-quits have been a result of people who fail to acknowledge this distinction taking it personally when we attempt to explain the distinction to them. XxWolfxX, anyone?