QUINTESSENCE? DONT UNDERSTAND

[-Cynthia-]

fire emblem 8?

i sure hope i'm right

Also works for 6 and 9. Not 10 though, IS changed things up quite a bit there.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Also works for 6 and 9. Not 10 though, IS changed things up quite a bit there.

i was just thinking of that working for FE6 when i arrived back to check on the topic.

though for FE9 i disagree mostly from this line " hero seeks MacGuffin(s) that will help him fight certain important enemie(s). " if only because Ike never seeks whats needed to defeat the blackknight and ashnard until the blackknight tells him "hey dumbass you left the one thing that can hurt me at your dead daddy's grave"

and IIRC there isn't an huge battle for getting it, you just receive it afterwards and don't use it til the black knight battle or so...i can't entirly remember

[Dig]

Also works for 6 and 9. Not 10 though, IS changed things up quite a bit there.

Except for the minor detail that Eliwood didn't die in FE6. But the point has definitely been made.

[-Cynthia-]

Except for the minor detail that Eliwood didn't die in FE6. But the point has definitely been made.

Hector is the leader of Lycia, not Eliwood.

[Othin]

The analogy falls through in multiple places for FE6, FE8, and FE9, the only games it could really be applied to. And only one of those games was made before FE7, so it becomes even less relevant.

[Dig]

Hector is the leader of Lycia, not Eliwood.

Well, shit. You're right.

[Acacia Sgt]

The analogy falls through in multiple places for FE6, FE8, and FE9, the only games it could really be applied to. And only one of those games was made before FE7, so it becomes even less relevant.

It applies to the first and fourth (2nd gen only) games as well, and the second and fifth kinda, since there's no 'Country C' in the equation, at least in the sense of being an actual country.

[CT075]

I think the entire debate between Anou and Banzai here is that Anou prioritizes gameplay over story, and Banzai vice versa.

Now that this is all done with, I kind of want to see that analysis of FE8.

[Whitefang]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

May you become lost in the void of TVTropes forever.

Fire Emblem seems to employ every single one of these tropes. That's just how it goes with this type of game.

[Othin]

It applies to the first and fourth (2nd gen only) games as well, and the second and fifth kinda, since there's no 'Country C' in the equation, at least in the sense of being an actual country.

No Country C, no MacGuffins, Country A being dealt with very differently... it doesn't apply to FE4 and FE5 at all. Don't know about FE1 and FE2, never played them.

The only thing that really makes any of those stories the same is that you're a hero fighting against an empire... something that's true for FE7 as well; while the Black Fang may call itself an assassins' guild, it's functionally an empire just like the rest of them.

I think the entire debate between Anou and Banzai here is that Anou prioritizes gameplay over story, and Banzai vice versa.

Now that this is all done with, I kind of want to see that analysis of FE8.

Banzai and I take the view that in an RPG, neither gameplay nor story should ever be prioritized to such an extent that the other is ruined.

I intend to do the FE8 analysis in a few days if Banzai doesn't, but unlike Banzai, I'm not a writer, so any results from me would be guaranteed to be... somewhat less pretty.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

May you become lost in the void of TVTropes forever.

Fire Emblem seems to employ every single one of these tropes. That's just how it goes with this type of game.

Seen it many times, responded to it enough times. See earlier in the thread if you want a response. Alternatively, I can dig through the thread and copy/paste one of my responses if you want to feel special and think you contributed something to the discussion.

[General Banzai]

Oh, since people are asking for it, I suppose I'll do this for FESS.

I already know where a few of FESS's mistakes are. I'll pick through the script with Othin tonight and we'll see if we can spot any others.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

Oh, since people are asking for it, I suppose I'll do this for FESS.

I already know where a few of FESS's mistakes are. I'll pick through the script with Othin tonight and we'll see if we can spot any others.

awesome, i loved reading this and i'm certain i'll love reading the next one

[Momo]

I haven't played the game in a while, but are you sure Kishuna was the first of Nergal's morphs with emotion? From what I remember, Kishuna was his first morph period, and I assumed his lack of dialogue was because he literally couldn't speak much if at all.

[Othin]

I haven't played the game in a while, but are you sure Kishuna was the first of Nergal's morphs with emotion? From what I remember, Kishuna was his first morph period, and I assumed his lack of dialogue was because he literally couldn't speak much if at all.

http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Chapter_23x:_Genesis_(Script)

Nergal: ...I name you Kishuna. You are the only morph to whom I've given emotions. It won't suffice simply to refer to you as a number. It is said man was sculpted by the hands of the gods. If so, then you, who were sculpted by these, my hands... And I, whose labors gave you breath and life... What are we, then? What does that make us? In your fabricated heart, which I gave unto you, what is it that you believe, Kishuna?

[eclipse]

awesome, i loved reading this and i'm certain i'll love reading the next one

</sarcasm>

There is a reason why I don't remember much of SS plot.

[Othin]

</sarcasm>

There is a reason why I don't remember much of SS plot.

If you can't remember much of FE8's plot, you're in no place to blame FE8's plot for that, are you not? Certainly, you can't be sure about a thing you admit to not remembering.

[eclipse]

If you can't remember much of FE8's plot, you're in no place to blame FE8's plot for that, are you not? Certainly, you can't be sure about a thing you admit to not remembering.

I don't remember it because it was that bland.

[shrang]

All I can say after reading the OP was... wow. I never bothered to look for plot-holes like that. However, I think you are looking too far into the details and not looking at the big picture. FE7 is a game, after all, not a novel, and therefore the main aim is... to be fun. Lyn's bandit chapters got boring, but the purpose was to teach the player how to play the game and get significant practice before launching into the main game, which is Chapter 11 - Final. Remember, this is the first game in the series to be targeted to the west, and they spent a large amount of time making sure those people were up to scratch. About the plot-holes, do they severely detract from the story? I doubt it. I'm quite sure if you just look at the plot as a whole (which is basically your bog-standard Hero's Journey), you would find it to be quite an enjoyable and engaging one. Even the most epic looking statue would look like crap if you got your magnifying glass out and examined every single hole.

[Lord Raven]

I don't remember it because it was that bland.

I liked FE8's plot and I thought Lyon was one creepy motherfucker.

[eclipse]

I liked FE8's plot and I thought Lyon was one creepy motherfucker.

*insert rant about how my views of a bland plot should be yours, etc., etc.*

That's fine. FE8's story didn't tickle my fancy. Pretty sure they'll be plenty of disagreement about it, but I can live with that.

[Lord Raven]

I'm glad we have come to terms and have begun life anew.

Furthermore, I liked FE7's plot because it was just so different in nature to the others. You weren't fighting a war; you were fighting against a mafia-esque organization, and then a crazed man who was obsessed with fucking around with death. I feel like its characters weren't setup all that well, to be honest -- I can see what you mean, but I liked the general atmosphere.

Of course it doesn't compare to FE9. FE9 reminds me of FF6 in that I truly felt the final battle against Ashnard. Every single person had their reason to fight that you knew in game, and every single person had redeeming qualities and sympathies, and every single person grew. PoR had fabulous writing and, while it used many cliches, it shows why they're not so bad. But that's beside the point. FE7 was more plot-driven compared to like FE9, FE4, or FE5 (FE5 was both plot and character even if not many characters got their own personalities, but they all had reasons like in FE9, and of course FE4 had a good dose of both).

[Florete]

...No. There's no evidence of the attacks ever having any meaning like that, either to the player or the characters.

Yes, there is. The entire tutorial is the evidence. Just because no one ever explicitly says, "This is what happens when a territory is left without a good Marquess! All these bandits terrorizing the villagers, GRR!" doesn't mean nothing's there.

Seriously, if we can have something like this topic at all, surely we can grasp this. You can argue that is' over-analyzing but that's the fun of being able to analyze, and clearly this analysis exists.

[Anouleth]

While FE7's plot has a lot of flaws, at least IS tried something new. Just to prove it, guess which game's plot I'm describing:

The game starts in country A, whose military is weak to average and specializes in cavaliers/paladins. This country is invaded by country B who has the strongest military on the continent. The leader of country A is killed in the invasion. A hero rises and goes to country C to request aid, and the combined might of country C and the remnants of country A are able to win lots of battles against country B. Along the way, the hero seeks MacGuffin(s) that will help him fight certain important enemie(s). Eventually, the main villain who controls country B is defeated and country A is liberated, with a child of their former leader as the new leader.

None of the Fire Emblem games have macguffins in them. A macguffin is an item who's only feature is that the characters want it:

The defining aspect of a MacGuffin is that the major players in the story are (at least initially) willing to do and sacrifice almost anything to obtain it, regardless of what the MacGuffin actually is. In fact, the specific nature of the MacGuffin may be ambiguous, undefined, generic, left open to interpretation or otherwise completely unimportant to the plot.

In FE6 and FE7, you spend some time trying to get the Fire Emblem. But that is not "just to drive the story", that is to open the Shrine of Seals. You try to collect Sacred Stones in FE8, but those items are crucial to defeating the Demon King.

[1st Mate Bob]

None of the Fire Emblem games have macguffins in them. A macguffin is an item who's only feature is that the characters want it:

In FE6 and FE7, you spend some time trying to get the Fire Emblem. But that is not "just to drive the story", that is to open the Shrine of Seals. You try to collect Sacred Stones in FE8, but those items are crucial to defeating the Demon King.

Eliwood and Co. are reclaiming the Fire Emblem for the queen so she will tell them the location of the shrine. There is no "opening" to be done, as far as I can remember. If they really wanted to, they could have just asked Athos where they needed to go. The point of getting the Fire Emblem was merely to make sure Zephiel would become the King of Bern so that the events in FE6 would occur. This makes it a MacGuffin. Hell, if they wanted to then they could have just skipped that whole part of the game and just had Athos take them to the shrine.

The "power" Nergal sought after is also a MacGuffin.

[Momo]

None of the Fire Emblem games have macguffins in them. A macguffin is an item who's only feature is that the characters want it:

The series is named after a macguffin.