Thieves

[CrashGordon94]

I'd say that more valuable steals would be cool, but it wouldn't be cool to go overboard. >_>

Just having enemy healers with awesome Staffs would work.

[Anouleth]

I think stealable weapons is also important. Either you give the enemy healers stuff like Physic, in which case you only need to steal like one or two, or you give them status staves which are annoying to deal with, or you give them Warp/Rescue staves, which break the game in the hands of the player.

The idea behind my suggestions was mainly to make it so that the utility function of the thief gets increased. I acknowledge I'm not the most well-informed, but it seems to me that stealing seems largely superficial. Most of the things you can steal are either basic weapons or items that can be sold for gold, especially in the games with auto-promote (thusly lowering the value of items that allow you to promote). On rare occasion you get a weapon that does something unique, but is largely impractical (horses layers or the like).

What about stat boosters? And a lot of these unique weapons are actually pretty good. Like the FE6 Halberd, or getting another rare Killer or Silver weapon, or even a Brave weapon.

Let's face it, the problem isn't the thief class itself. The class is fine. It's that their primary utility has been effectively eviscerated by chest-keys and weapons that are easily available that trump anything steal able. It's like having a class that gets a huge bonus when fighting on water, but is otherwise weak, then having only three maps with a tiny trickle of water in the entire game.

If it's any comfort, IS seem to realise this and have removed almost all Chest Keys from FE12. There's like one Master Key that you get almost at the end of the game, and the Thief staff, and that's it.

[Othin]

Again, this is practically fe5 minus capture (probably with + some build on the thieves). Don't get me wrong, it would help the thief class a fair amount for utility value and that's a positive. I just find it interesting.

The trouble with making more valuable weapons on the enemies is, well, that there are more valuable weapons they are using against you. Going up against an army of silvers and killers is not fun.

It's what makes a game interesting. In FE5 and Berwick Saga, enemies are almost always better armed than you, and whatever you want, you pretty much have to take from them one way or another. By no coincidence, those are the games that, more than others, actually take strategy in order to get through combat. Personally, I regard them as the best FE games both in gameplay and overall.

If it's any comfort, IS seem to realise this and have removed almost all Chest Keys from FE12. There's like one Master Key that you get almost at the end of the game, and the Thief staff, and that's it.

And the infinite-use Fire Emblem that you have with you in every single chapter once you get it.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Othin

[Anouleth]

And the infinite-use Fire Emblem that you have with you in every single chapter once you get it.

Marth has better things to do than open chests.

[Snowy_One]

What about stat boosters? And a lot of these unique weapons are actually pretty good. Like the FE6 Halberd, or getting another rare Killer or Silver weapon, or even a Brave weapon.

Stat-boosters are great, but they are far from necessary unless the game is horribly balanced. I can't comment on the FE6 Halberd, but consider this, unique weapons may be great (or horrible) but your thief needs something worth stealing every chapter if he is to be constantly deployed. That either means you will be getting a lot of stat-boosters/unique weapons, or he needs to be able to steal something basic that is highly needed, like basic weapons.

Edit: Also think of the potential if used properly. Normal/easy could have more readily available weapons while hard could require stealing, which makes the game actually harder instead of just fighting stronger enemies.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Snowy_One

[Anouleth]

What about stat boosters? And a lot of these unique weapons are actually pretty good. Like the FE6 Halberd, or getting another rare Killer or Silver weapon, or even a Brave weapon.

Stat-boosters are great, but they are far from necessary unless the game is horribly balanced. I can't comment on the FE6 Halberd, but consider this, unique weapons may be great (or horrible) but your thief needs something worth stealing every chapter if he is to be constantly deployed. That either means you will be getting a lot of stat-boosters/unique weapons, or he needs to be able to steal something basic that is highly needed, like basic weapons.

Edit: Also think of the potential if used properly. Normal/easy could have more readily available weapons while hard could require stealing, which makes the game actually harder instead of just fighting stronger enemies.

So fighting stronger enemies doesn't make the game harder? Would you say that FE8 is more difficult than FE12 since the only thing FE12 has on FE8 is stronger enemies, while FE8 has status effects?

[Snowy_One]

Errrr... Yes and no. Fighting stronger enemies is indeed harder, but it doesn't require the player to really improve as much or show their skill/knowledge as enemies that use new mechanics and skills to force the player to adapt. It's the difference between the boss who's hard just because he can smash you to the ground and deplete half your health in a single blow and the boss who may not hit as hard, but uses game mechanics to make the entire party at risk. Just adding onto enemy stats/reducing EXP doesn't REALLY make the game harder per-say, you still use most of the same tactics and whatnot, it just makes it so that you need to be a stronger player.

I think I need to define terms actually. Harder = stronger enemies. Difficult = requiring more skill/strategy. The game becomes harder with stronger enemies, but doesn't become all that much more difficult.

[CrashGordon94]

I think stealable weapons is also important. Either you give the enemy healers stuff like Physic, in which case you only need to steal like one or two, or you give them status staves which are annoying to deal with, or you give them Warp/Rescue staves, which break the game in the hands of the player.

Oh yeah, those are definitely good.

Perhaps what they could do is have a large number of Mages/Sages/other casters with an "El" tome and a siege tome, then with a little strategy and a high STR/CON Thief you could load up on siege tomes. Of course, you might think that particular one is a little borked but I'd definitely like that.

Also you could have lots of promoted enemies carrying multiple weapons, then you could steal one (or more) of them.

[Anouleth]

Errrr... Yes and no. Fighting stronger enemies is indeed harder, but it doesn't require the player to really improve as much or show their skill/knowledge as enemies that use new mechanics and skills to force the player to adapt. It's the difference between the boss who's hard just because he can smash you to the ground and deplete half your health in a single blow and the boss who may not hit as hard, but uses game mechanics to make the entire party at risk. Just adding onto enemy stats/reducing EXP doesn't REALLY make the game harder per-say, you still use most of the same tactics and whatnot, it just makes it so that you need to be a stronger player.

So you're saying that FE12 isn't really harder than FE8, and you can use the same tactics in both games? All FE12 does is remove Warp, increase the number of enemies, and make them stronger. It doesn't add any new mechanics. Does that mean that you need as much skill or knowledge to beat FE12 on the hardest setting as on the easiest setting?

I think I need to define terms actually. Harder = stronger enemies. Difficult = requiring more skill/strategy. The game becomes harder with stronger enemies, but doesn't become all that much more difficult.

So if, in theory, every enemy had 0 in every stat and were armed with broken weapons, then the game would still require the same amount of skill and strategy? Would you say that in Starcraft 2, unit upgrades don't actually make the game harder, and that you still need the same amount of skill and strategy to beat the game when the enemies use 3/3 units as when they use 0/0 units?

Oh yeah, those are definitely good.

Perhaps what they could do is have a large number of Mages/Sages/other casters with an "El" tome and a siege tome, then with a little strategy and a high STR/CON Thief you could load up on siege tomes. Of course, you might think that particular one is a little borked but I'd definitely like that.

I don't think that having access to lots of long range tomes is broken, since mages are pretty underpowered right now and more siege tomes would make them useful. But I think that having lots of enemies with siege tomes is a bad thing, because it's impossible to protect your units from them. The game should reward good unit micro.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Anouleth

[BwdYeti]

I voted 'fine as they are' but only because I didn't like the other options

I agree Thieves, or maybe just Rogues, should have Pass. And maybe Rogues should have 7 move instead of 6? And there needs to be more to steal or they need to be able to steal weapons so they can actually do something other classes can't (to deal with 'mounted units with keys obsolete them')

Also 1-2 range all the time, whether from having knives as a weapon type, or some sort of class skill affecting swords

But in terms of actual combat they should be terrible that's the point

Edited October 3, 2011 by BwdYeti

[Snowy_One]

So you're saying that FE12 isn't really harder than FE8, and you can use the same tactics in both games? All FE12 does is remove Warp, increase the number of enemies, and make them stronger. It doesn't add any new mechanics. Does that mean that you need as much skill or knowledge to beat FE12 on the hardest setting as on the easiest setting?

They are two different games, so it is only logical to assume that two different tactics would be needed. However, in FE8, the biggest difference I felt (ergo, the one I noticed the most when playing) was not a change in tactics so much as me not being able to raise up 'weaker' characters just as easily. I may have 1RKO'ed less, but the tactics I needed remained very similar.

So if, in theory, every enemy had 0 in every stat and were armed with broken weapons, then the game would still require the same amount of skill and strategy? Would you say that in Starcraft 2, unit upgrades don't actually make the game harder, and that you still need the same amount of skill and strategy to beat the game when the enemies use 3/3 units as when they use 0/0 units?

Let me counter with my own example. In WoW, during WotLK, there were two bosses, Putricide and Sindragosa. Putricide was a technical fight which required a lot more positioning and careful management on the entirety of the raid while Sindragosa was much closer to a straight out slugfest. It took us more attempts to down Sindragosa than it did the Professor, but the Professor was much harder and after we got the hang of the bosses we still wiped on him the most. Why? The Professor had several mechanics in his fight that required the entire raid to focus and keep on their toes with everyone using plenty of their abilities. Sindragosa, by comparison, was 'harder' but only because we would inevitably suffer undergeared raids and such. We had her figured out entirely by attempt 3, but her sheer power kept her from being a pushover.

And yes, I would say that you need the same degree of skill, or rather, superior units and numbers can be defeated by a skilled player (has actually done this via a clever tag-team with friend online).

Edited October 3, 2011 by Snowy_One

[Othin]

Indeed, forcing a player to slow down, level up more, or use certain strategies doesn't really make the encounter more difficult or require more skill, and therefore be more rewarding and contribute more to the quality of the game. It can be a route to difficulty, but high stats do not cause actual difficulty themselves.

[Colonel M]

I don't know about you fuckers, but I found FE12 Lunatic a hell of a lot harder than FE8, and while I've only scratched Lunatic' I can definitely say it's harder than FE8.

What you two don't realize is in many chapters the game, literally, "rushes" you to finish the chapters pretty quickly unless you want to get mauled by a shitload of reinforcements that are difficult to control. Even My Unit can only handle so much unless you're someone like mjemerzian and force your My Unit to proc Def every level up alongside Spd, Str, and HP. Maybe Luck too because Luck is a cool stat and it makes it look less rigged. This isn't like Shining Force or FE2 / FE8 where you can repeat almost any battle that you want just to train some weakling.

FE12 Lunatic is what makes boys become men.

Also with the Thief question I vote none of the above (my crazy humor says Donkey is cool but I just can't see it), but having innate Pass and removing Chest / Door Keys would be ideal. One thing I never got was how the keys could fit every lock in the realm. I mean, isn't that pretty dangerous to have the same locks as the enemy country?

Edited October 4, 2011 by Kitty M

[Narga_Rocks]

Also with the Thief question I vote none of the above (my crazy humor says Donkey is cool but I just can't see it), but having innate Pass and removing Chest / Door Keys would be ideal. One thing I never got was how the keys could fit every lock in the realm. I mean, isn't that pretty dangerous to have the same locks as the enemy country?

fe5 stealing is still the way to go. Limited shops with expensive items and the thieves can steal anything they have the build for, even if it is equipped.

As for the chest keys, there is only one locksmith in the entire world so he's got contracts everywhere, and he's not even very good (he can't figure out how to make different shaped keys work in his locks so they are all identical, and he figured he'd get more money if he made keys that broke after each use). It's great for him (he charges outrageous prices with his monopoly) but really bad for everyone else. He's also got this amazing habit of leaving keys just lying around for vendors to pick up and sell.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Anouleth]

Actually, I interpret as an international Key/Chest Cartel that controls all key and chest production in the world. Any country that attempts to make it's own locks gets cut off from the supply, and since you can only use those keys once, they would rapidly find themselves unable to open their own chests and doors. Planned obsolence at it's most diabolical. Naturally, their greatest enemies are Thieves and Rogues.

I don't think that being able to steal equipped items is the right way to go. It requires a complex build/weight system (which IS seems to be removing), and is potentially quite overpowered (being able to disarm enemies). It would be easier to have enemies with multiple weapons. That earlier suggestion of siege tomes could work by increasing the number of uses they have: that way, it is practical to steal lots of tome uses without filling the maps with enemy siege tome users.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Anouleth

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't think that being able to steal equipped items is the right way to go. It requires a complex build/weight system (which IS seems to be removing), and is potentially quite overpowered (being able to disarm enemies). It would be easier to have enemies with multiple weapons. That earlier suggestion of siege tomes could work by increasing the number of uses they have: that way, it is practical to steal lots of tome uses without filling the maps with enemy siege tome users.

Well, it could be modified to a comparative strength system. If thief is stronger than unit, then thief can take whatever unit has in its hands. Still has to be faster, though, so if you are a thief and you are faster + stronger, you can simply grab whatever it is out of his hands. Naturally, you'd have to be unequipped yourself, though. And if you happen to steal something that you are capable of equipping, then it becomes equipped when you steal it. Thus, if a thief in a game where thieves use swords happens to steal a sword it has the rank to use, the thief auto-equips. If it steals a tome, then the thief is unarmed until next turn unless another unit comes up and trades.

I think it's a little silly in games where thieves steal weapons that Volke can hold on to his dagger while stealing a giant axe from an enemy.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Narga_Rocks

[Aethereal]

Well, it could be modified to a comparative strength system. If thief is stronger than unit, then thief can take whatever unit has in its hands. Still has to be faster, though, so if you are a thief and you are faster + stronger, you can simply grab whatever it is out of his hands. Naturally, you'd have to be unequipped yourself, though. And if you happen to steal something that you are capable of equipping, then it becomes equipped when you steal it. Thus, if a thief in a game where thieves use swords happens to steal a sword it has the rank to use, the thief auto-equips. If it steals a tome, then the thief is unarmed until next turn unless another unit comes up and trades.

I think it's a little silly in games where thieves steal weapons that Volke can hold on to his dagger while stealing a giant axe from an enemy.

But this could be problematic too. In this scenario are we still assuming the low amount of shops, with relatively weak weapons? Because if so, your axe users are screwed, or thieves become overpowered. Axe users are generally the units with the highest STR stat, so a thief would need to have a ridiculously high STR stat to steal them, or all our axe users would be stuck with iron weapons that cost us a fortune to replace, while our sword users, magic users, and bow users could be supplied for forever with no real cost.

[Anouleth]

Well, it could be modified to a comparative strength system. If thief is stronger than unit, then thief can take whatever unit has in its hands. Still has to be faster, though, so if you are a thief and you are faster + stronger, you can simply grab whatever it is out of his hands. Naturally, you'd have to be unequipped yourself, though. And if you happen to steal something that you are capable of equipping, then it becomes equipped when you steal it. Thus, if a thief in a game where thieves use swords happens to steal a sword it has the rank to use, the thief auto-equips. If it steals a tome, then the thief is unarmed until next turn unless another unit comes up and trades.

I think it's a little silly in games where thieves steal weapons that Volke can hold on to his dagger while stealing a giant axe from an enemy.

It's also silly that you can carry 7 giant axes at once, and that a huge Armour Knight can only carry as much as a small cleric, and that you can magically teleport items into the convoy, and that you have all characters share a money supply so that one character can make 100000 gold from selling on one side of the map and in the same turn someone on the other side of the map can spend it, or that you can trade with a character as many times as you want in one turn and have him switch weapons ten times, yet such mechanics make the game a good deal easier and offer options that would otherwise be impossible (such as trading an item into someone else's inventory and making them equip it). It also makes sense that staff users should equip the staff as they use it, but most people don't seem to like that.

Quite aside from the inherent absurdity of not just somehow stealing items from an enemy (that can fly or be sitting on a horse) mid combat, but stealing items that they are holding in their hand.

Edited October 4, 2011 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

The money part isn't too absurd. They just had MasterCards back in the day.

(Lucky bastards probably don't get bill statements and tax collectors and blah blah).

[Narga_Rocks]

The money part isn't too absurd. They just had MasterCards back in the day.

(Lucky bastards probably don't get bill statements and tax collectors and blah blah).

It's more like debit cards with one central account. After all, you can't go into debt buying stuff you can't afford in these games.

[eclipse]

So you're saying that FE12 isn't really harder than FE8, and you can use the same tactics in both games? All FE12 does is remove Warp, increase the number of enemies, and make them stronger. It doesn't add any new mechanics. Does that mean that you need as much skill or knowledge to beat FE12 on the hardest setting as on the easiest setting?

You forgot the following things. . .

1. Some luck, and you can't rig the RNG like FE8.

2. Dragons have 1-2 range, as opposed to 1 on some of the easier modes (I think Maniac has this too, but I'm not sure).

3. Lunatic' has enemies always going first, which alters strategies.

I'll shut up and go back to the Shadow Dragon boards

[dondon151]

I think balancing thieves is not a trivial task. You can try to make thieves more important by limiting available resources, but there is a fine line between stealing being merely a pleasant extra mechanic and stealing being necessary to progress through the game.

I don't personally think that FE5 handled this very well, either. If we take into account capturing as a thieving alternative, thieves are nearly all but useless in FE5 (except for chapters 4-6). They didn't reliably have the necessary parameters to steal expensive weapons, and capturing accounted for a substantial portion of the player's income on its own - for example, when I SSS ranked the game on 0% growths, I had enough money by chapter 14 to buy 11 S Drinks at 5000G each, with nearly none of that income coming from stealing.

There's also the fact that it takes a surprisingly small amount of weaponry to progress through the game. Warp is definitely at fault here, but I was cutting it extremely close with usable weaponry (I think I basically had like 6 usable weapons by the end of the game) without any particular difficulty and still managed to procure an exorbitant amount of money with little contribution from thieves.

Now let's say that in our hypothetical FE5, the capture mechanic doesn't exist and Chest Keys don't exist. Capturing and opening chests probably accounted for the bulk of my income in FE5, with some amount coming from visiting houses and selling default equipment. Suddenly, it turns out that you can't finish the game without using a thief, which is imbalanced in the opposite direction. And, even in FE5, there are players who occasionally screw themselves over by getting their thieves killed and then realizing that there's no way for them to obtain the Door Key needed to progress through the door that blocks the throne.

Edited October 4, 2011 by dondon151

[NinjaMonkey]

realizing that there's no way for them to obtain the Door Key needed to progress through the door that blocks the throne.

I take it that you can't attack doors in FE5, right?

[dondon151]

That is correct.

[Just call me AL]

I take it that you can't attack doors in FE5, right?

FEs 9 & 10, are the only FEs AFAIK so far in which doors can be attacked. Edited October 4, 2011 by Cybernetic Ghost