Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

Integrated Turn Order has serious flaws, as I can say right now, because it generally favors units who are normally faster, and your tank units are usually the slowest on the field as is. It probably doesn't help that Shining Force had a fatal flaw with their RNG system (in my opinion) and made turn order so fucked up that I was playing with luck.

If you want me to prove it, I have a log of Shining Force II being played as efficiently as I (possibly) could, and you will notice that Movement still played a momentous factor in it, too. Slade was probably the top dog on my force with Peter, and Bowie / Sarah (Sarah is mentioned due to healing) played integral pieces of the puzzle. Don't forget Eric and Jaro being bosses too!

Already addressed that this is nothing like the sort of integrated turn system Berwick Saga uses, and therefore the system I am proposing.

[Colonel M]

EDIT: Nevermind, this was explained to me by YayMarsha. I just wanted to point out Shining Force's flawed Turn System.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Colonel M

[Rothene]

Back on topic(as in interpreting the OP as what I want in the new FE)...Armoured MAGES for players! We have peggies who's a res tanking def targeting unit. Now we need an Armoured high def Res targeting unit...preferably with knightly movement.

[Dark Sage]

Back on topic(as in interpreting the OP as what I want in the new FE)...Armoured MAGES for players! We have peggies who's a res tanking def targeting unit. Now we need an Armoured high def Res targeting unit...preferably with knightly movement.

So Barons?

[grandjackal]

Integrated Turn Order has serious flaws, as I can say right now, because it generally favors units who are normally faster, and your tank units are usually the slowest on the field as is. It probably doesn't help that Shining Force had a fatal flaw with their RNG system (in my opinion) and made turn order so fucked up that I was playing with luck.

If you want me to prove it, I have a log of Shining Force II being played as efficiently as I (possibly) could, and you will notice that Movement still played a momentous factor in it, too. Slade was probably the top dog on my force with Peter, and Bowie / Sarah (Sarah is mentioned due to healing) played integral pieces of the puzzle. Don't forget Eric and Jaro being bosses too!

While I would say it has flaws as you mentioned (though RotDD actually made turn order character by character statically consistent and made Agility an actually worthwhile stat), it has it's good parts too. For example, it doesn't have FE's pattented "Hit end turn, kill everything on a single enemy phase" syndrome.

[Anouleth]

While I would say it has flaws as you mentioned (though RotDD actually made turn order character by character statically consistent and made Agility an actually worthwhile stat), it has it's good parts too. For example, it doesn't have FE's pattented "Hit end turn, kill everything on a single enemy phase" syndrome.

Why not? The enemy phase still exists, it's just integrated with the player phase. Nothing prevents you from leaving an extremely powerful unit in range of enemies so they can suicide into him. If anything, it's easier since you can just choose to move your extremely powerful unit multiple times and ignore your other units, under the system that Othin described.

Not that I think it's necessarily a good or bad thing. Being able to pick which unit you move does add an extra choice even if it takes away the possibility of having several units work together in one phase to achieve a particular goal like perform a rescue chain. One notable advantage is that it reduces the potency of Warpskip strategies since warping your bosskiller and Lord to the goal will still leave them open to getting attacked.

[grandjackal]

Why not? The enemy phase still exists, it's just integrated with the player phase. Nothing prevents you from leaving an extremely powerful unit in range of enemies so they can suicide into him. If anything, it's easier since you can just choose to move your extremely powerful unit multiple times and ignore your other units, under the system that Othin described.

To clarify, counterattacking doesn't happen in the Shining Force games at a consistent rate. It's up to percentage, usually based on the character's class. That might not be the same as it is in Berwick Saga.

Not that I think it's necessarily a good or bad thing. Being able to pick which unit you move does add an extra choice even if it takes away the possibility of having several units work together in one phase to achieve a particular goal like perform a rescue chain. One notable advantage is that it reduces the potency of Warpskip strategies since warping your bosskiller and Lord to the goal will still leave them open to getting attacked.

Note that I didn't say everything about FE's turn system is bad, merely that it had one particular flaw I didn't happen to like. Oddly enough, this coincides with the only thing I like about FE4: Pursuit. Limited good enemy phase to specific units (granted there's more than one poor choice for who it went to. Like Sigurd...), but didn't eliminate enemy phase altogether.

[Dark Sage]

Note that I didn't say everything about FE's turn system is bad, merely that it had one particular flaw I didn't happen to like. Oddly enough, this coincides with the only thing I like about FE4: Pursuit. Limited good enemy phase to specific units (granted there's more than one poor choice for who it went to. Like Sigurd...), but didn't eliminate enemy phase altogether.

Pursuit was one of the worst things to ever happen to Fire Emblem.

[grandjackal]

Pursuit was one of the worst things to ever happen to Fire Emblem.

I think it's more that it was horribly implemented. Besides, you think "If you have no speed, you suck" is any better?

Edited November 19, 2011 by grandjackal

[Dark Sage]

I think it's more that it was horribly implemented. Besides, you think "If you have no speed, you suck" is any better?

That's exactly the case in FE4 as well. Weapons have high might there and you get weighed down by everything. If you have low speed, your evasion will suck and you'll have to eat a non negligible amount of damage.

All Pursuit did was make characters like Sigurd even more ridiculous than they would ordinarily be and absolutely crippled characters like Dew.

[Epic Fail]

Well, the problem with pursuit is that if you don't have it, chances are you won't be doubling much (I know there are other skills that allow you to double, but I think they have lower activation rates).

[Othin]

To clarify, counterattacking doesn't happen in the Shining Force games at a consistent rate. It's up to percentage, usually based on the character's class. That might not be the same as it is in Berwick Saga.

Ah, and here we get into the other big change.

In Berwick Saga, if a character is hit by an enemy attack and takes damage, they lose their standard counterattack or double attack. It's also worth noting that the standard double attack can apply against any slower enemy (from what I understand), but it only works if the character attacks first and the enemy counterattacks. So while there are up to three attacks possible in a round of combat, normally, it ends after the first one does damage; the standard double attack mainly exists to allow characters a second chance to hit rather than making the battle pointless. This has some odd and likely unintended implications.

Weapons that grant additional attack turns are notable in that they bypass this whole matter entirely; their added attacks cannot be canceled, making them particularly useful on the enemy phase. In contrast, weapons that hit consecutively allow for more chances to do damage and cancel the enemy's counterattack when initiating combat, making them particularly useful on the player phase.

It's worth noting that while fighter classes rely on their speed to dodge attacks (vital to counterattacks under this system), knights tend to have little or no innate evasion and rely instead on shields for defenses. Shields are used to block randomly with shield accuracy depending on the character's skill with that class of shield - weapons work the same way, in a system similar to FE11/12's weapon levels but with more specific variation. Shields may or may not allow a character to block an attack entirely and retaliate in spite of being hit; it largely depends on the class of shield, and not all knights can use the best shields.

[grandjackal]

That's exactly the case in FE4 as well. Weapons have high might there and you get weighed down by everything. If you have low speed, your evasion will suck and you'll have to eat a non negligible amount of damage.

All Pursuit did was make characters like Sigurd even more ridiculous than they would ordinarily be and absolutely crippled characters like Dew.

Thus my point in it being badly implemented, basically because 1. It was a skill given to units that were already super ridiculous, 2. Speed in that game was still crazily important because it was still a very powerful stat, and 3. It was put into FE4, the most boring vapid vacuum of empty space and crazily horrid unit balance imaginable. I can see how one could have a bad opinion on it, but just because it was badly implemented doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea.

Edited November 19, 2011 by grandjackal

[Anouleth]

Pursuit could have been a good skill if it was restricted to foot units only. Then it might not have been a total mounted unit curbstomp.

[Dark Sage]

Thus my point in it being badly implemented, basically because 1. It was a skill given to units that were already super ridiculous, 2. Speed in that game was still crazily important because it was still a very powerful stat, and 3. It was put into FE4, the most boring vapid vacuum of empty space and crazily horrid unit balance imaginable. I can see how one could have a bad opinion on it, but just because it was badly implemented doesn't necessarily make it a bad idea.

How is it a good idea? If a unit doesn't have Pursuit, then they can't double without relying on an unreliable skill or a Brave/Master weapon. It doesn't change the good units, all it does is make bad units worse. You could say it was badly implemented, but I don't see why units should need a skill just to double (or make it easier to double if you modify it like in various FE4 hacks).

FE5 learned from FE4's mistake with Pursuit. Hopefully, it is never seen again.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Thor Odinson]

Pursuit could have been a good skill if it was restricted to foot units only. Then it might not have been a total mounted unit curbstomp.

I like this idea.

[grandjackal]

Pursuit could have been a good skill if it was restricted to foot units only. Then it might not have been a total mounted unit curbstomp.

This, though on a unit like Alec wasn't that bad.

How is it a good idea? If a unit doesn't have Pursuit, then they can't double without relying on an unreliable skill or a Brave/Master weapon. It doesn't change the good units, all it does is make bad units worse. You could say it was badly implemented, but I don't see why units should need a skill just to double (or make it easier to double if you modify it like in various FE4 hacks).

FE12, at least 3/4 of the cast is made useless just because they didn't have a bajillion speed. All Pursuit did was make it obvious who had good offense, and didn't have it revolve entirely around speed. The only problem Pursuit had was that it was put on units that were already absurd.

FE5 learned from FE4's mistake with Pursuit. Hopefully, it is never seen again.

Well hopefully if it does get implemented again, they won't give it onto high move invincible asskickers.

[Dark Sage]

FE12, at least 3/4 of the cast is made useless just because they didn't have a bajillion speed. All Pursuit did was make it obvious who had good offense, and didn't have it revolve entirely around speed. The only problem Pursuit had was that it was put on units that were already absurd.

3/4 of the cast are useless in Lunatic mode, a mode with truly ridiculous enemies. It wasn't just because some units weren't that great speed wise.

In addition, I don't even see what's wrong with relying mainly on speed to double and Pursuit not existing. I'd rather have a prayer at having all my units being able to double than having units whose offense is crippled because they don't have a retarded skill. People bitch about unit balance and Pursuit would destroy that by making some units have clearly better offense than others.

If Pursuit didn't exist in FE4 and the doubling formula was similar to other FEs, then it would've been better. Sigurd would not have changed one bit, but Noish would actually be able double if he wields a light enough weapon and gets enough attention. Dew and Tiltyu would've been a metric ton easier to train as well. In other words, "The only problem Pursuit had was that it was put on units that were already absurd," is complete bullshit.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Dark Sage

[Refa]

Although not as significant as pursuit, it would've been nice if all of the characters could critical. FE9 (also maybe FE5, didn't play enough of that one) definetely improved on the skill system, but it's hard to hold it against FE4 since it did invent the damn thing.

[grandjackal]

3/4 of the cast are useless in Lunatic mode, a mode with truly ridiculous enemies. It wasn't just because some units weren't that great speed wise.

Yet ultimately it's the deciding factor. Imagine lategame with a theoretical unit which has max HP, Str and Def, but was getting doubled by everything. It would suck undeniably despite the fact said unit had good stats elsewhere just because it's durability would be undermined by the fact every enemy would hit it twice, and that in FE12 we have units that double so it can't even come close to making up for it's offense on strength alone. Does it not strike you as silly that even if you were godly in every other stat, 1 single stat alone would make or break you altogether?

In addition, I don't even see what's wrong with relying mainly on speed to double and Pursuit not existing. I'd rather have a prayer at having all my units being able to double than having units whose offense is crippled because they don't have a retarded skill. People bitch about unit balance and Pursuit would destroy that by making some units have clearly better offense than others.

You make it sound like Fire Emblem couldn't function as a game unless doubling was the ultimate goal for units to achieve.

If Pursuit didn't exist in FE4 and the doubling formula was similar to other FEs, then it would've been better. Sigurd would not have changed one bit, but Noish would actually be able double if he wields a light enough weapon and gets enough attention. Dew and Tiltyu would've been a metric ton easier to train as well. In other words, "The only problem Pursuit had was that it was put on units that were already absurd," is complete bullshit.

If everyone was capable of doubling in FE4, then I would not even remotely give two shits to train bums like Dew and Tiltyu, because then all my mounts would be even more ridiculous than they already are. In fact, I would have nothing to train them with because my mounts would have microwaved them ten times over before they even got close to approaching the front lines.

Edited November 19, 2011 by grandjackal

[dondon151]

I think it would be cool idea if some classes did not have the ability to double but instead had to ability to attack with 2x str if their skl was +4 over the enemy's.

I guess it'd be a little like one of those BS skills that Othin was talking about.

[Refa]

It'd help make weaker classes more useful, and assuming this game has skills, Myrmidons with Vantage may actually be something to worry about.

[Cysx]

I think it would be cool idea if some classes did not have the ability to double but instead had to ability to attack with 2x str if their skl was +4 over the enemy's.

I guess it'd be a little like one of those BS skills that Othin was talking about.

Decent idea. Beware of huge crits though, not to mention ennemies have generally low skill so you can evade their attacks. But this isn't a bad idea by any means, maybe +4 skill is just a little low.

Luck is the scrappy-stat ATM.

That's true, but I don't think you should invert luck and speed when it comes to avoidance. There clearly are things that aren't logical in FE, but it's no reason to modify those which are if you can do otherwise. And in my view, luck should simply raise critical rate as well, maybe at about +1 crit every three or four luck points. I don't even know why it doesn't work that way right now, tbh.

[Rewjeo]

I don't see how +4 skill is low. It's the same requirement for SPD with doubling, and depending on how your weapons might compares to the enemies defense, could actually do less damage than a double attack.

Edited November 19, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Snowy_One]

Help out someone who never played a older FE game. What is pursuit and why was it so OPed?

Anyways, I actually like the idea of luck raising critical rates. However, I'm thinking it should be 1 critical every 2 points. FE10 aside, you usually don't end with more than 20-30 luck. At a 2 crit to 1 SKL ratio that makes it 10-15 extra crit, which is very useful to say the least.