Mechanics that you want

[Dark Sage]

There's a reason baseball has more players than Calvinball.

Yeah tell me about it. I've been trying to find fellow Calvinball players for years but there aren't any where I live.

To have this post contribute something to the topic, I have to agree with dondon and Othin about how growth rates being shown isn't necessarily a good idea. As Othin said, the game shouldn't just provide you with the growths since the game shouldn't tell you "ok this unit is going to end up like this."

Plus it seems to me like this whole idea was started and agreed with because people are butthurt about having to look up the growth rates on the internet. Seriously guys, it takes like, 2 minutes at the most to get what you're looking for. Do you really not have 2 minutes to spare?

[Cysx]

Yeah tell me about it. I've been trying to find fellow Calvinball players for years but there aren't any where I live.

To have this post contribute something to the topic, I have to agree with dondon and Othin about how growth rates being shown isn't necessarily a good idea. As Othin said, the game shouldn't just provide you with the growths since the game shouldn't tell you "ok this unit is going to end up like this."

Plus it seems to me like this whole idea was started and agreed with because people are butthurt about having to look up the growth rates on the internet. Seriously guys, it takes like, 2 minutes at the most to get what you're looking for. Do you really not have 2 minutes to spare?

Not everyone has access to the internet. And this is information relevant enough to how the game works so that you should be able to see it in-game without having to resort to hacking. Should I even mention that any decent FE player knows about growths and plays largely according to them?

[Snowy_One]

So a 'decent' FE player relies on powerful unit growth rates instead of utilizing strategy to try and win maps? I guess a 'decent' player of any fighter game relies on raw power and doesn't learn combos or moves by that logic.

[Othin]

Not everyone has access to the internet. And this is information relevant enough to how the game works so that you should be able to see it in-game without having to resort to hacking. Should I even mention that any decent FE player knows about growths and plays largely according to them?

I would assume that almost anyone who has video games has internet.

Any decent FE player knows that each character has percentage chance of increasing each stat, if that's what you mean by "knows about growths". However, if you think anyone decent at FE these days plays largely according to growths, I can only laugh at you. I personally don't give a shit about what those exact numbers are aside from general trends and rarely remember them, and I would say I'm more than a decent FE player. Worth noting that those general trends are precisely what can be observed from regular gameplay, without needing to actually look at the growth rates.

[General Banzai]

Criticizing Dondon because he plays with 0% growths and that's not how the developers intended the game to be played is 1) Digressing the discussion to a personal attack on Mr. Dondon, and 2) Completely missing the fucking point.

Dondon is arguing that there need to be constraints, that constraints are good for a game. The fact that he plays with 0% growths and other such things is simply additional self-imposed constraints but constraints nonetheless. "Playing in a way that IS didn't intend" =/= "Playing without constraints".

I simply don't understand what the Pro-Growth Camp is even arguing for here. I mean, they want something put into the game which they have perfect and easy access to already (all character growths are on this site, along with already-calculated averages for each level of growth), while failing to take into account the wishes of the primary group of people who play Fire Emblem (i.e., people not on this site) as well as the kind of people who IS is trying to draw to the series (as evidenced through casual mode, etc). For the price of satisfying a minuscule group of people who already have what they want anyways, we're seeking to alienate the people who actually make up most of this game's sales figures (and thus keep IS making more installments to the game).

Considering that IS has not made a single game yet in which successful completion of the game relies on growth rates (hell, even casual newbies in the early days of FE7 beat HHM while at the same time scorning Marcus and glorifying Nino), the inclusion of growth rates is completely superfluous and I don't even understand what purpose putting them in the game would serve.

[Paperblade]

Not everyone has access to the internet. And this is information relevant enough to how the game works so that you should be able to see it in-game without having to resort to hacking. Should I even mention that any decent FE player knows about growths and plays largely according to them?

Yeah that's why I use good units like Neimi and Farina instead of badwrongfun units li-wait a minute.

[dondon151]

Oh hi Mr. 0% growths. I guess you made FE pointless because you didn't play exactly how IS wants you to and therefor were not adapting to constraints.

Othin and Banzai understood where I was coming from; you, on the other hand, decided that this was a perfect statement to strawman.

In fact, you took this in the completely opposite direction. I find the game more fun when I impose more constraints on myself than what the game intended. That's perfectly fine, since a game is supposed to impose a set of constraints on the player, and the player has to figure out how to work within those constraints.

[Rewjeo]

Edit: Okay, I'm thinking you guys misunderstood my point, which lead to me misunderstanding yours. Nowhere did I say there should be no constraints. That's what you guys thought I said. I think. What I actually said was that you shouldn't have to play the way IS WANTS you to. Not how the game limits you. How IS WANTS you to, which is not how many of us play. Then dondon said I was wrong about not needing to play how IS wants and I pointed out that dondon does not play at all like IS wants us to, going against what I thought he said. I was not (intentionally) strawmanning- what I thought he said was actually contradictory to what he does. Can we just move on?

Edited December 1, 2011 by Rewjeo

[Cysx]

I would assume that almost anyone who has video games has internet.

And you'd most certainly be correct. However.

almost

Is where it's at. This is no argument; the fact is not everyone has the internet, so you shouldn't NEED it to get this kind of information if you want to know about it.

Should I even mention that any decent FE player knows about growths and plays largely according to them?

Okay, that was a bit harsh. The emphasis really wasn't meant to be on "any decent player". Sorry if you felt insulted.

I'll rephrase then. In my opinion(which can perfectly be wrong), most of the decent players end up refering to growth for many things, from the very moment they know about them. Because this is very important information, and one of the core mechanics of these games.

That doesn't mean you'll know them perfectly, and that doesn't mean you'll make every single one of your choices(like will I ditch that unit even tough I like it) based on them alone either.

[Rewjeo]

Also, on the internet note, I am not always near internet when I'm playing a handheld game. I would agree that a WiiU Fire Emblem title would gain nothing from having growths in game. But I play my portables away from internet most of the time I play them, so I can't just look up how well units will grow on the fly.

[Refa]

Playing FE with the growth rates would ruin any sense of immersion you would get from the game. Stats are neccessary, because otherwise there would be no semblance of strategy. Growth rates are superfluous. Adding them into the game would DETRACT from my enjoyment of it.

[Emblem Lugh]

Edit: Okay, I'm thinking you guys misunderstood my point, which lead to me misunderstanding yours. Nowhere did I say there should be no constraints. That's what you guys thought I said. I think. What I actually said was that you shouldn't have to play the way IS WANTS you to. Not how the game limits you. How IS WANTS you to, which is not how many of us play. Then dondon said I was wrong about not needing to play how IS wants and I pointed out that dondon does not play at all like IS wants us to, going against what I thought he said. I was not (intentionally) strawmanning- what I thought he said was actually contradictory to what he does. Can we just move on?

Pretty sure IS made the game so you can play however you want. I've never seen IS say anything about how they want you to play.

[Momo]

There have probably been at least a few examples of IS trying to lead you a certain way. For instance, FE11's gaiden chapters forcing you to kill your own guys off.

[Othin]

There have probably been at least a few examples of IS trying to lead you a certain way. For instance, FE11's gaiden chapters forcing you to kill your own guys off.

That does not appear to be a method of encouraging you to kill off your characters, but rather a method of compensating you if you happen to lose those characters, replaced by Casual Mode in FE12.

[General Banzai]

That does not appear to be a method of encouraging you to kill off your characters, but rather a method of compensating you if you happen to lose those characters, replaced by Casual Mode in FE12.

Hence why nowhere in the game is a single Gaidan even hinted at existing. It's not placed there as a goal (unlike in FE6 where if you take too long the game tells you that you missed out on something, or several FE7 Gaidans where specific plot events hint at Gaidan requirements most of the time).

[Anouleth]

I had an interesting thought on buffing skill: adjust critical so that each point of hit you have over 100 is turned into crit (replacing the normal Skill/2 bonus). Potentially, you could get 2 crit for each additional point of skill, making it quite potent in the hands of a sword user.

I guess it would weaken units that are supposed to be inaccurate and critty, like Berserkers.

[Thor Odinson]

And it would make sword users suck less, too.

I like.

[General Banzai]

The problem is Swordmasters are in that tricky balance category between "Sucks" and "Totally Overpowered". With that formula a Swordmaster could easily be running at 100% crit without too much hassle.

[Paperblade]

Somehow I don't think that anyone is concerned about units with no 1-2 range or mount being overpowered...

[Thor Odinson]

They're dealing with mostly WTD on top of that, as well. Let them have some nice offensive parameters.

I thought FE6 was pretty good in terms of all four physical weapons being useful, due to the overall lower hitrates, using a sword gives reliability. Bows weren't useless, either.

Magic, on the other hand, well...

Edited December 4, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Paperblade]

IS needs to get out of this "mages are terrible in every stat including move" mindset.

[Thor Odinson]

More Mage Knights would be nice. :3

Edited December 4, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Anouleth]

The problem is Swordmasters are in that tricky balance category between "Sucks" and "Totally Overpowered". With that formula a Swordmaster could easily be running at 100% crit without too much hassle.

Not really. Take FE9. To have 100 crit, you'd need to be a Swordmaster and have 185 more hit than your opponent has avoid. Even with a max hit forged Iron Sword, capped skill and capped luck, you'd only have 205 hit against lategame enemies without about ~45 avoid, giving you a +60 bonus instead of a +15 bonus. Which is a big difference, sure, but it seems like skill and luck do need to be made better, and this accomplishes that pretty well. It also buffs the traditionally high-skill Snipers.

[Aethereal]

Not really. Take FE9. To have 100 crit, you'd need to be a Swordmaster and have 185 more hit than your opponent has avoid. Even with a max hit forged Iron Sword, capped skill and capped luck, you'd only have 205 hit against lategame enemies without about ~45 avoid, giving you a +60 bonus instead of a +15 bonus. Which is a big difference, sure, but it seems like skill and luck do need to be made better, and this accomplishes that pretty well. It also buffs the traditionally high-skill Snipers.

Is that before or after calculating weapon crit, the crit you get from skill, and the passive that swordmasters get as a class?

[Rothene]

I had an interesting thought on buffing skill: adjust critical so that each point of hit you have over 100 is turned into crit (replacing the normal Skill/2 bonus). Potentially, you could get 2 crit for each additional point of skill, making it quite potent in the hands of a sword user.

I guess it would weaken units that are supposed to be inaccurate and critty, like Berserkers.

Which hit/avo calculation will be used? FEGBA or FEDS type? Former lets me see a lot of crit, and scary dodge ability on SMs.

Although I also see Luck affecting Crit consequently as Luck also boosts hit...I like! 8D