Othin Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 FE2 has 32 characters. I've never played it, but it seems like that should be enough, especially since they're more distinct than characters in most FE games with the magic system and class skills. Worth noting (but should be less than surprising) that I feel that Berwick Saga perfected the distribution of characteristics with its 35 characters; honestly its best aspect, and I'd be surprised if anyone who's played it felt otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 FE2 has half that amount. The total characters are divvied across two separate lords. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted October 31, 2011 Share Posted October 31, 2011 Indeed they are. Doesn't make it have half that amount. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) "balance issues" is code for "half the cast is fucking useless" Exactly. I really want to use Matthis but he's soooo bad it's not even worth it for the lulz. And have you ever tried to use Lyre in FERD? It's not pretty. FE5, 7, 8, and 9 would be examples of what I consider "good balance", where while some units are better than others nobody is unusable. Edited November 1, 2011 by General Banzai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ChaosLord Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 25-30 characters or alot of chapters and 40-50 characters. In retro spect having 50+ characters in fesd was not a very bright move. partly because of the lack of moments to level them up partly because of the lack of good characters [damn you jeigan!...and boah and midia and aster and most of the prepromots...] with balanced teams you can chose from a variety of charactrs and not have them all suck. with more chapters if you want to promot all the characters then you can! also. also heres what i hope will be in fe3ds! -GOOD prepromots -challenging enimeies - good ai for netrual units -allie and netrual units -optinal tutorial. one that you can turn off -good rouges/assasins -more support classes -blanced long range wepons and fighters -blanced classes -interresting story! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Exactly. I really want to use Matthis but he's soooo bad it's not even worth it for the lulz. And have you ever tried to use Lyre in FERD? It's not pretty. FE5, 7, 8, and 9 would be examples of what I consider "good balance", where while some units are better than others nobody is unusable. I wouldn't say that Shanam, Wallace, Amelia, or Rolf are qualitatively less unusable than Matthis or even Lyre. Certainly, from my point of view, they all come under the category of waaaaaay too much effort for waaaaaay too little payoff. [damn you jeigan!...and boah and midia and aster and most of the prepromots...] whatchu talking 'bout Midia is a BAUSE Edited November 1, 2011 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Boah and Jeigan are also great units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I wouldn't say that Shanam, Wallace, Amelia, or Rolf are qualitatively less unusable than Matthis or even Lyre. Certainly, from my point of view, they all come under the category of waaaaaay too much effort for waaaaaay too little payoff. Shanam's usable for utility purposes (meaning, buying me a shit-ton of Seraph Robes so Miranda caps HP), the same way Matthew is considered a pretty decent unit. And Amelia and Rolf at least have decent end stats. Matthis... does not. Wallace probably has more average speed than Matthis too >.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Shanam's usable for utility purposes (meaning, buying me a shit-ton of Seraph Robes so Miranda caps HP), the same way Matthew is considered a pretty decent unit. Not even close. Shanam's utility helps the player for maybe the last 2 chapters of the game, and even then, the degree to which a few extra stat boosters might actually be useful is questionable. And Amelia and Rolf at least have decent end stats. Matthis... does not. Wallace probably has more average speed than Matthis too >.> Good thing reclassing exists, then. Matthis still sucks, but at least he can go to better classes after promotion. He's perfectly usable on lower difficulties. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Not even close. Shanam's utility helps the player for maybe the last 2 chapters of the game, and even then, the degree to which a few extra stat boosters might actually be useful is questionable. Irrelevant. It's fun and can add a unique flavor to a playthrough you couldn't get without him, and that's all a character needs to do to add something substantial to a game. And if you actually want him to fight, scrolls exist. Edited November 1, 2011 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Shanam's usable for utility purposes (meaning, buying me a shit-ton of Seraph Robes so Miranda caps HP), the same way Matthew is considered a pretty decent unit. And Amelia and Rolf at least have decent end stats. Matthis... does not. Wallace probably has more average speed than Matthis too >.> Great, Shanam can buy stat boosters in a game where it's not very difficult to cap stats. He can help reduce the shittiness of other incredibly shitty units. Good for him. And what about all that other trash in FE5 like Ronan, or Marty, or Dalshien, or Kein/Alva? Even if Wallace is faster than Matthis, Matthis has basically double his movement and can fly. And since you don't seem to know, I must inform you that even if Matthis spends the whole game in the slowest class available to him (Paladin), he still has better speed than Wallace. Besides, the issue is about usability. Not about end stats, or about adding "flavour". Even trash like Wendy has decent end stats. And Scrolls are hardly a fix. The implication is that no matter how unusably bad a unit's stats are, it's awwwwright as long as resources (in this case Scrolls) exist to fix it. I guess then, FE12 is "balanced" because you can get 200 stat boosters and a funnel, maybe a forge and even Samto can be a superhero. Edited November 1, 2011 by Anouleth Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Irrelevant. How is correcting a blatantly incorrect statement "irrelevant?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Irrelevant. It's fun and can add a unique flavor to a playthrough you couldn't get without him, and that's all a character needs to do to add something substantial to a game. Problem being Shanam is a horrible example, because he brings literally nothing to the table. Basically you THINK it's adding a unique flavor when in truth it's just very lazy character design. Besides, Bargain is a pretty pathetic skill to have in a game where you basically have 0 money and don't ever need to actually buy anything, along with the fact that it's the only thing you have to offer when fighting for a slot. This is why the Silver Card exists, so we don't have more Shanams. And if you actually want him to fight, scrolls exist. With his awful bases, the little time he has, and his awful growths, there is not a chance in hell that even scrolls would save his sorry ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 The only thing I ever bought in FE5 was one iron axe for Machua when she promoted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Most if not all of you appear to miss the part where overall quality and ideal strategies for any type of run are not the point here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eclipse Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Why CAN'T it be the point? If that's how some of us have fun, let us have our fun! You can do whatever you like in your game, BUT don't be so horribly close-minded about units (*coughMatthiscough*) that you can't see that some of us find him "not that bad". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Most if not all of you appear to miss the part where overall quality and ideal strategies for any type of run are not the point here. Right. Originally, Banzai said that Matthis was unusable. Even a cursory look over a variety of drafts and PMU playthroughs on the FE11 board shows that is not the case. Many resources in FE11 and FE12 exist to help "fix" units, such as forges, stat boosters, and reclass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 I just think Shanam's skill would have more of a point in a game where you actually have to buy things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Celice Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Why CAN'T it be the point? If that's how some of us have fun, let us have our fun! You can do whatever you like in your game, BUT don't be so horribly close-minded about units (*coughMatthiscough*) that you can't see that some of us find him "not that bad". It can.It just shouldn't outright nullify all others. Which most fans seem to instantly suggest, with one point being far more (insert trope) than another. Edited November 1, 2011 by Celice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) Most if not all of you appear to miss the part where overall quality and ideal strategies for any type of run are not the point here. And you appear to be missing the part where Shanam is not nearly as good as Matthew! If your only criterion for a character worth putting in a game is that he "adds unique flavor to a playthrough," then I can say that about every other character. I can probably say that most characters, even ones that are generally considered to be really bad, add more unique flavor than Shanam does. At least they are usually around for much longer to make a substantial contribution when babied (e.g. Amelia, Matthis). Now, if he joined in chapter 14, that'd be awesome, because you can buy like 20 S drinks and make fatigue trivial for the rest of the game. Edited November 1, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) What the fuck? Of course Shanam isn't as good as Matthew. I'm not sure how you can think I was saying otherwise when I just said I wasn't talking about overall quality in the first place, and haven't said a word about Matthew this whole time. Matthis is different only in terms of stats, and stats are boring. Amelia is more interesting, since she has a unique starting class giving her more class options, and potentially a unique final class. Edited November 1, 2011 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) What the fuck? Of course Shanam isn't as good as Matthew. I'm not sure how you can think I was saying otherwise when I just said I wasn't talking about overall quality in the first place, and haven't said a word about Matthew this whole time. You haven't, but General Banzai did. Here, I'll provide you the quote: Shanam's usable for utility purposes (meaning, buying me a shit-ton of Seraph Robes so Miranda caps HP), the same way Matthew is considered a pretty decent unit. Matthis is different only in terms of stats, and stats are boring. Amelia is more interesting, since she has a unique starting class giving her more class options, and potentially a unique final class. So? Matthis still isn't unusable like Banzai claimed. He's even usable in H5 in SD (though he really sucks there) using the Curate->Sniper path. Edited November 1, 2011 by Dark Sage Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grandjackal Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 Matthis is different only in terms of stats, and stats are boring. Amelia is more interesting, since she has a unique starting class giving her more class options, and potentially a unique final class. Regarding the stats are boring thing, nothing seperates Shanam from the same problem. Bargain in a game where you have no money nor need it doesn't change anything. You say it adds spice, but air isn't a spice. So? Matthis still isn't unusable like Banzai claimed. He's even usable in H5 in SD (though he really sucks there) using the Curate->Sniper path. My legacy, it lives to this day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 (edited) What the fuck? Of course Shanam isn't as good as Matthew. I'm not sure how you can think I was saying otherwise when I just said I wasn't talking about overall quality in the first place, and haven't said a word about Matthew this whole time. Maybe you should consider actually looking at the posts to which you respond instead of blowing up like a pressurized container every time I make a post. Matthis is different only in terms of stats, and stats are boring. Amelia is more interesting, since she has a unique starting class giving her more class options, and potentially a unique final class. And... Shanam is only different in the edge case where a player wants twice as many stat boosters for 2 chapters, in a game where it's already easy to max everyone out with scroll abuse. Otherwise, he's just like Matthis or Amelia with half the availability and none of the flexibility. Edited November 1, 2011 by dondon151 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted November 1, 2011 Share Posted November 1, 2011 You haven't, but General Banzai did. Here, I'll provide you the quote: So? Matthis still isn't unusable like Banzai claimed. He's even usable in H5 in SD (though he really sucks there) using the Curate->Sniper path. I am well aware that Banzai briefly mentioned Matthew, in a context that would not at all suggest that Shanam is as good as Matthew. In other words, Matthis is usable if you want to use him as a collection of stats that can be tossed around to whatever role you want him to suit, but not if you want to use him as Matthis the knight, the character he really is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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