Mechanics that you want

[Griffen78]

Yeah, I remember that Swordmasters have a couple of key advantages in FE12 such as auto-C Sword rank, high base speed and +10 avoid boost, as well as sky high speed cap actually being

y'know

relevant

Exactly. Though I hope heros get something to make them relevant as well. in FE11/FE12 they simple got nothing to set them equal to the other damage dealing units. Perhaps they will get access to sol and swordmasters will not? Or perhaps a cover skill that allows them to take damage for a weaker unit that would be otherwise killed? Either way, I just want a more balanced competitive experience.

[BwdYeti]

Or maybe if Heroes got existent Str and Def caps and stopped having 30 Skl for no reason at all.

Yeah this other stuff is good too and probably more meaningful, but the same Skl cap as a Sniper? Higher than a Swordmaster? And 25 Str, that's it? Warriors and Zerkans manage to be more different from each other than Heroes and Swordmasters do, and they're pretty much exactly the same in at least 4 stats

[Thor Odinson]

And a more balanced selection of enemy weapon types would help. Swords sucked in FE7 simply because lances are the majority a good amount of time, and those few chapters outside of banditland that's not lances everything, it's suddenly magic which sword users have a hard time countering since you only get one Light Brand and that hits res anyway. In FE6, however, not only do their actual reliable hit rates help out a lot in situations, but enemies aren't always EVERYTHING IS LANCES (Western Isles is more sword/axes and Sacae is a mix of mostly bows, some swords, and only lances are those dracoknights), making swords actually not a bad weapon to have there, even if it's swordlock, since 1-2 range gets pretty unreliable at times and isn't as good as 7/8's "Javelins and Handaxes dominate everything gwar". Axes and lances are still good, but not so much that they pretty much obliterate the usefulness of swords.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Griffen78]

And a more balanced selection of enemy weapon types would help. Swords sucked in FE7 simply because lances are the majority a good amount of time, and those few chapters outside of banditland that's not lances everything, it's suddenly magic which sword users have a hard time countering since you only get one Light Brand and that hits res anyway. In FE6, however, not only do their actual reliable hit rates help out a lot in situations, but enemies aren't always EVERYTHING IS LANCES (Western Isles is more sword/axes and Sacae is a mix of mostly bows, some swords, and only lances are those dracoknights), making swords actually not a bad weapon to have there, even if it's swordlock, since 1-2 range gets pretty unreliable at times and isn't as good as 7/8's "Javelins and Handaxes dominate everything gwar". Axes and lances are still good, but not so much that they pretty much obliterate the usefulness of swords.

I agree. There needs to be more specialty swords that actually justify using units that use mainly swords. Though you are going off of the FE6/7/8 standards. This game seems to follow FE9/10 standards more so than the handhelds. Combat wise anyway. I believe they should play heros more like a much more offensive general with high attack, decent speed, mid low skill, etc. Instead of a class just slightly bulkier than a sword master with more skill for some reason. Though I think class usability will come more with what weapons are put in the game, how many of these weapons we obtain, and what skills each character and classes are able to equip more so than stats. I've always enjoyed the hero design and would love to see them at least challenge the swordmaster's dominance at the top of the sword using food chain.

[Anouleth]

I agree. There needs to be more specialty swords that actually justify using units that use mainly swords. Though you are going off of the FE6/7/8 standards. This game seems to follow FE9/10 standards more so than the handhelds. Combat wise anyway. I believe they should play heros more like a much more offensive general with high attack, decent speed, mid low skill, etc. Instead of a class just slightly bulkier than a sword master with more skill for some reason. Though I think class usability will come more with what weapons are put in the game, how many of these weapons we obtain, and what skills each character and classes are able to equip more so than stats. I've always enjoyed the hero design and would love to see them at least challenge the swordmaster's dominance at the top of the sword using food chain.

What are you talking about? Neither class is "dominant". Swordmasters were better in FE4 and FE5, then Heroes were better in FE7 and FE8 and FE11, then Swordmasters were better again in FE12.

[Griffen78]

Talking about Wi-fi. So 11 and 12. Since from what I have heard it can be assumed that feature will return.

[General Banzai]

We forget Guy's awful strength (worst in the game after the thieves and a couple of prepromotes) and lock to sword sucks also

[Lord Raven]

What are you talking about? Neither class is "dominant". Swordmasters were better in FE4 and FE5, then Heroes were better in FE7 and FE8 and FE11, then Swordmasters were better again in FE12.

I feel like Heroes had some use before the late game of FE12, especially as Hand Axe users that could use a Sword as well (considering Swords had the potential to be pretty powerful thanks to the weapon rank bonuses compared to a Berserker or Warrior).

Weren't Heroes (Mercenaries I guess) better in FE5? They could use Axes (and we had characters like Othin [with a Pugi] and Galzus vs Shiva and Evayle).

Edited January 18, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Thor Odinson]

As a class, not necessarily. The ranged swords are actually quite good in 5 (Flame Sword <333), and axes besides Pugi and like, Brave/Master Axe, weren't that great yet. They're tons better than in 4, sure, but they aren't really surpassing swords in usefulness at that point (plus there's a shitton more good swords lying around that's not locked to anyone) and SMs do have auto-Continue. Othin's great 'cuz he has Pugi and Galz is ridiculous no matter what. Capped offenses, good durability, +1 move, MeteorLuna? That's just Galzus being awesome rather than a product of his class.

I do love the female Hero map sprite though. Machua looked so badass there. <3

Edited January 18, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Refa]

Swords were pretty damn OP in the first 5 games, well first 4 games (I think they were really good in FE5 though).

[Thor Odinson]

Oh. One thing I forgot to mention

SM has one move on Hero in 5.

[Rewjeo]

Of course, movement is also character dependent, to an extent, in 5.

[CrashGordon94]

Back on the branching classes idea, I had thought of a few more, some taken from FE8 but with a few tweaks.

Mage -> Mage Fighter/Mage Knight (Jugdral style)/Sage

Priest -> Sage/Bishop/Druid* (both genders since I believe Valkyries simply shouldn't exist)

Sword/Axe Armor -> General (Jugdral style)/Great Knight (Magvel style, but with Cavalier or maybe Paladin MOV, see below for why.)/Marshall (reinvisioned as a heavily armored class with Swords and Axes alone and stats halfway between General and Hero, putting more of an emphasis on STR and SPD (and maybe SKL) than the other two but less on DEF and HP, this would likely come across via lopsided promotion gains.)

Lance Armor -> General/Great Knight

Bow Armor -> General (No branching for you! ...It'd probably be enemy only anyway, who would want to use a Bow Armor? <_<)

Archer -> Sniper/Ranger

Hunter -> Warrior/Ranger

Sword/Axe/Lance Knight -> Paladin (FE9 weapon choice)/Great Knight (This is why I want higher MOV on GKs, so Cavs don't LOSE some on promotion! -_-)

Bow Knight -> Paladin/Ranger

Thief -> Assassin (with full stealing skills as per FE9 but even higher promo gains because the class itself would be like a Knife-wielding Swordmaster variant with Lethality)/Highwayman (a mounted Thief variant with all the associated skills but with no promotion gains whatsoever besides the large bonuses to MOV and CON/WT)

Bandit/Pirate -> Warrior/Berserker (Warrior would have the same movement abilities as Berserker and a higher Bow rank too)

*Priest -> Druid is a really odd idea but I just thought to put it down anyway.

I probably overkilled it, but I had a lot of ideas!

Edited January 18, 2012 by Kirby

[Anouleth]

I feel like Heroes had some use before the late game of FE12, especially as Hand Axe users that could use a Sword as well (considering Swords had the potential to be pretty powerful thanks to the weapon rank bonuses compared to a Berserker or Warrior).

I dunno.

Weren't Heroes (Mercenaries I guess) better in FE5? They could use Axes (and we had characters like Othin [with a Pugi] and Galzus vs Shiva and Evayle).

Oh yeah, that's true. Even Halvan is still much better than any other given SM. Even when it comes to the crappiest characters, Ralph kicks the snot out of Shanam.

Edited January 18, 2012 by Anouleth

[CrashGordon94]

Aren't Hand Axes supposed to suck in FE12?

[dondon151]

Oh yeah, that's true. Even Halvan is still much better than any other given SM. Even when it comes to the crappiest characters, Ralph kicks the snot out of Shanam.

Well yeah, because Ralph has actual base stats. However, I'd much rather have Trewd or Shiva over Halvan just for the extra movement.

[grandjackal]

Well yeah, because Ralph has actual base stats. However, I'd much rather have Trewd or Shiva over Halvan just for the extra movement.

Uhhh, I dunno about Trewd with that considered, cause he's not exactly that great at combat himself.

[Lord Raven]

insert standard "enemies suck and trewd's bases are pretty good" argument here

As a class, not necessarily. The ranged swords are actually quite good in 5 (Flame Sword <333), and axes besides Pugi and like, Brave/Master Axe, weren't that great yet. They're tons better than in 4, sure, but they aren't really surpassing swords in usefulness at that point (plus there's a shitton more good swords lying around that's not locked to anyone) and SMs do have auto-Continue. Othin's great 'cuz he has Pugi and Galz is ridiculous no matter what. Capped offenses, good durability, +1 move, MeteorLuna? That's just Galzus being awesome rather than a product of his class.

idk, if we judge a class' worth we should compare the chars in that class before saying the class in theory is good... Edited January 18, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Griffen78]

Back on the branching classes idea, I had thought of a few more, some taken from FE8 but with a few tweaks.

Mage -> Mage Fighter/Mage Knight (Jugdral style)/Sage

Priest -> Sage/Bishop/Druid* (both genders since I believe Valkyries simply shouldn't exist)

Sword/Axe Armor -> General (Jugdral style)/Great Knight (Magvel style, but with Cavalier or maybe Paladin MOV, see below for why.)/Marshall (reinvisioned as a heavily armored class with Swords and Axes alone and stats halfway between General and Hero, putting more of an emphasis on STR and SPD (and maybe SKL) than the other two but less on DEF and HP, this would likely come across via lopsided promotion gains.)

Lance Armor -> General/Great Knight

Bow Armor -> General (No branching for you! ...It'd probably be enemy only anyway, who would want to use a Bow Armor? <_<)

Archer -> Sniper/Ranger

Hunter -> Warrior/Ranger

Sword/Axe/Lance Knight -> Paladin (FE9 weapon choice)/Great Knight (This is why I want higher MOV on GKs, so Cavs don't LOSE some on promotion! -_-)

Bow Knight -> Paladin/Ranger

Thief -> Assassin (with full stealing skills as per FE9 but even higher promo gains because the class itself would be like a Knife-wielding Swordmaster variant with Lethality)/Highwayman (a mounted Thief variant with all the associated skills but with no promotion gains whatsoever besides the large bonuses to MOV and CON/WT)

Bandit/Pirate -> Warrior/Berserker (Warrior would have the same movement abilities as Berserker and a higher Bow rank too)

*Priest -> Druid is a really odd idea but I just thought to put it down anyway.

I probably overkilled it, but I had a lot of ideas!

No to the thief class, yes to damn near everything else. Though 2 promotions would be enough.....valkrye should exist, but the sword variant. so a troubador would either get anima or sword upon promotion. If you want three promotions.....summoner over druid. Druid is to damage oriented me thinks. And dark magic users deserve to keep their best class to themselves. And (assuming monsters are in) bishop is more support than anything, and summoners live for support. As for great knight, they get all three melee weapons yes? That is really the only thing they had over paladins in FE8 ._.

[CrashGordon94]

No to the thief class, yes to damn near everything else.

Just curious, what would be your issue with Thief then? And thanks!

Though 2 promotions would be enough.....

Yeah, I just thought that it would be cool to get more where there were more ideas.

If you want three promotions.....summoner over druid. Druid is to damage oriented me thinks. And dark magic users deserve to keep their best class to themselves. And (assuming monsters are in) bishop is more support than anything, and summoners live for support.

Agreed, the Priest -> Druid was a shaky idea and I like your reasoning. That would be the best idea for a Staffbot to Dark user route.

As for great knight, they get all three melee weapons yes? That is really the only thing they had over paladins in FE8 ._.

Yeah, that was the idea and the reason why all three weapon triangle Knights/Armors could promote into one but Bow Knights and Bow Armors can't. Also weapon-wise they'd be above Paladins (any 2) but below Generals (all 4).

Also, I think I might have another:

Shaman -> Druid/Summoner/Dark Knight (This would be like a Dark Magic version of either Mage Fighter or Mage Knight, possibly with Axes instead of Swords but that's a tad daft. They'd likely have the highest STR, DEF and HP but the lowest MAG and RES among the magic classes)

[bottlegnomes]

I'd go with a dark version of mage knight. And why no axes? It's not like their strength is going to be good in the first place. And that way they'd have axes (better than swords) while mage knights would have anima (better than dark).

What do you have against valkyries?

[CrashGordon94]

Sounds good to me!

Well, I was a bit skeptical as it was rather an odd idea, Magic + Swords has been done before but Magic + Axes hasn't, aside from Master Knights.

I don't like Valkyries because they have a tendency to overshadow Bishops and a few other things, I don't want to get into that again.

[Lord Raven]

Since the undead are making an appearance, maybe they'll pull an FE8 and allow Bishops to have effective damage against the undead whereas Valkyries are just a Monk/Cleric hybrid on a horse.

[CrashGordon94]

Giving Bishops that capability again would indeed be cool.

[Griffen78]

Dark knight is not bad. Though I think a magic knight unit that gains the choice to learn the opposite of what they have. Like a mage can choose to use sword/spear/axe. Or a sword user/axe user/ spear unit. can choose light magic/anima magic/dark magic would be more interesting. Though I doubt this kind of unit would see much use over the just magic or just strength oriented units.

Choices like this would make wi-fi more interesting and replay value slightly higher.

And I have an idea for a solider promotion line: Templar/haleberter

Templar being spear/staff with increased def+res growth and magic with slightly decreased attack growth.

And as for thief, I liked the assassin/rouge split. So one had to choose between making the unit a much better fighter or a decent fighter with much more non combat usefulness. A mounted thief would be weird.

And I was assuming the bishop would have the slayer ability.

Edited January 19, 2012 by Griffen78