Mechanics that you want

[Othin]

Alternatively, you could remove the speed stat altogether. After all, all other things being equal, high-speed units are always going to be better than low-speed units, with more avoid, more doubling, and getting doubled less.

All other things equal, a character with any advantage will always be better than a character without. This is why other things should not be equal. It's true that Speed's ability to double a character's offense makes it rather ridiculous, though, so if that's an issue, just do what FE4 and BS did and make it so that Speed on its own only determines Avoid and doubling is instead primarily dependent on skills and weapons.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Othin

[NinjaMonkey]

I say give the higher up bows some defense bonuses to help survivability.

Why? It's not as though Archers are meant to be used on the frontlines or anything...

[CrashGordon94]

Now that's just boring.

I really don't see how... Not all similarities are bad, Othin!

[bottlegnomes]

I really don't see how... Not all similarities are bad, Othin!

It's a cop out way to make armors better, like giving bows 1-2 range.

[General Banzai]

Knights are only truly handicapped in the specific way you guys play the game. Meanwhile IS is designing a game meant to be played many different ways. Not one tactical style is preferred over another, and there are plenty of areas where Knights excel over their counterparts.

I remember a time where Knights were prized for their reliable defensive capabilities (meaning less reliance on RNG than dodgetanks). Then people started caring about turn counts and things changed; but that's a problem with the community, not with the game design.

[CrashGordon94]

It's a cop out way to make armors better, like giving bows 1-2 range.

I still don't see the issue. You say "cop out", I say "simple and elegant solution".

[bottlegnomes]

I still don't see the issue. You say "cop out", I say "simple and elegant solution".

Why don't we just give mounted and unmounted units the same move then?

[Lord Raven]

I remember a time where Knights were prized for their reliable defensive capabilities (meaning less reliance on RNG than dodgetanks). Then people started caring about turn counts and things changed; but that's a problem with the community, not with the game design.

What are you talking about? The only armors that people ever praised were like FE10 Gatrie and Oswin, and they're still fairly highly praised.

FE11 and 12 makes them good for all types of playthroughs.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[dondon151]

Knights are only truly handicapped in the specific way you guys play the game. Meanwhile IS is designing a game meant to be played many different ways. Not one tactical style is preferred over another, and there are plenty of areas where Knights excel over their counterparts.

I remember a time where Knights were prized for their reliable defensive capabilities (meaning less reliance on RNG than dodgetanks). Then people started caring about turn counts and things changed; but that's a problem with the community, not with the game design.

Rebel against the LTC ubermensch!

Except armors are still bad because they don't have the right parameters in the right places. When IS designs scenarios in which high def, despite the lack of spd, is actually useful, then armors would be more useful.

* and when IS stops providing strictly superior alternatives in the form of bulky cavaliers and wyvern riders.

Edited February 5, 2012 by dondon151

[I.M. Gei]

Knights are only truly handicapped in the specific way you guys play the game. Meanwhile IS is designing a game meant to be played many different ways. Not one tactical style is preferred over another, and there are plenty of areas where Knights excel over their counterparts.

I remember a time where Knights were prized for their reliable defensive capabilities (meaning less reliance on RNG than dodgetanks). Then people started caring about turn counts and things changed; but that's a problem with the community, not with the game design.

Why do a good 90% of your posts have to be about how amazingly butthurt you are that there exist people who play for LTC?

[Refa]

Why do some people here hate LTC so much? Even if I wasn't a fan of it, it wouldn't personally affect me if people here like really liked Bors or something. I'd still think he'd suck. Plus while the tier lists are made with efficiency in mind, that really just means it's less efficient to use lower tier characters. Nothing's stopping you from doing so (except maybe in FE4).

[Thor Odinson]

And plus, who wants to use armours with low stats in mostly everything (defense is even debatable in some cases, I'm looking at you, Wendy) when the game sometimes throws you flying tanks with ridiculous stats?

Yes, I'm looking at you, FE6. Three shitty armours and a goddess on wings. And her brother who comes wtf late but is still more useful than those three put together.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Othin]

I still don't see the issue. You say "cop out", I say "simple and elegant solution".

Differences are what make character choices matter. Giving all characters identical parameters in everything would be an even simpler way to get rid of all balance issues whatsoever... and make the game become utterly worthless.

[Anouleth]

Knights are only truly handicapped in the specific way you guys play the game. Meanwhile IS is designing a game meant to be played many different ways. Not one tactical style is preferred over another, and there are plenty of areas where Knights excel over their counterparts.

I remember a time where Knights were prized for their reliable defensive capabilities (meaning less reliance on RNG than dodgetanks). Then people started caring about turn counts and things changed; but that's a problem with the community, not with the game design.

Actually, people starting examining the game to a higher standard and actually began applying the standards that tier lists were based on consistently. That's hardly a problem. If anything, it's a good thing that people finally woke up and noticed that hey, Gilliam's defense is actually not that useful in a game where enemies are as weak as FE8's.

People also stopped saying useless crap like "hey, Bors isn't supposed to be able to kill anything or move fast or be remotedly useful since he's an armour!"

Edited February 5, 2012 by Anouleth

[Momo]

Armors drew the short straw in a series where Speed is easily the most important stat. One of the reasons 11 is my favorite of the series is because defense actually matters as a stat most of the time, and being fast doesn't instantly make you better than slow guys.

edit: Oh also defense actually mattering made archers way more useful. Having accurate 2 range looks a lot better when you can't just dodge everything.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Momo

[Paperblade]

Why do some people here hate LTC so much? Even if I wasn't a fan of it, it wouldn't personally affect me if people here like really liked Bors or something. I'd still think he'd suck. Plus while the tier lists are made with efficiency in mind, that really just means it's less efficient to use lower tier characters. Nothing's stopping you from doing so (except maybe in FE4).

Well I'm butthurt because it killed tier list activity and encourages shit like RNG abusing to follow cookie cutter strategies

Then again the most vocal people against LTC don't really have the same reason

[Snowy_One]

I don't mind LTC so much, even as a tiering faction, I just dislike the extreme it gets taken to where people start treating it like the be-all, end-all of Fire Emblem and thinking the entire game should be balanced around it and such.

Anyways, I think the problem with armors is simply that a lot of the game maps are designed to be seize/rout maps in which being able to reach your enemy fast is a very notable thing, even if you aren't playing for a low turn count. The best solution would to simply add in more defend-type maps since, in those maps, you can just plop a armor down somewhere which negates their movement issue. However, their real issue is their SPD. It's not a question of 'taking damage' really, but rather 'if you want to get a general up to the point of not being doubled you need to waste multiple speedwings on them, never mind doubling'. Generals get the shaft in speed way too hard and it would really help if they could get some more SPD on the whole to help out.

[CrashGordon94]

Why don't we just give mounted and unmounted units the same move then?

Differences are what make character choices matter. Giving all characters identical parameters in everything would be an even simpler way to get rid of all balance issues whatsoever... and make the game become utterly worthless.

Umm, yeah. Problem is this isn't the same thing. It's making one small change to produce one small smilarity which would fix a lot of problems in one go. I'm not saying to give everyone the same MOV or to homogenize everything about them, ONE SINGULAR CHANGE! ONE SINGULAR CHANGE isn't going to kill all variety within a game and it's ridiculous to say it is or that it's even close!

[Othin]

Well I'm butthurt because it killed tier list activity and encourages shit like RNG abusing to follow cookie cutter strategies

Then again the most vocal people against LTC don't really have the same reason

The latter reason is precisely my feeling about it.

I find it amusing how much LTC insists itself to be "efficient" while ignoring the inherent inefficiency of unnecessary resetting, ever. Especially for players who, I believe, at least some of them have expressed a desire to not "waste" any more of their time playing the game than necessary. Perhaps they haven't noticed that time doesn't not pass just because the game forgets that it does?

Umm, yeah. Problem is this isn't the same thing. It's making one small change to produce one small smilarity which would fix a lot of problems in one go. I'm not saying to give everyone the same MOV or to homogenize everything about them, ONE SINGULAR CHANGE! ONE SINGULAR CHANGE isn't going to kill all variety within a game and it's ridiculous to say it is or that it's even close!

The amount of variety is pitiful as it is. It needs to be expanded, not reduced.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I find it amusing how much LTC insists itself to be "efficient" while ignoring the inherent inefficiency of unnecessary resetting, ever.

I'm trying to do a LTC run of FE12 H3 myself, and when I mean "efficient", I mean turn-wise, not time-wise. It (unfortunately) involves a bunch of RNG bending or outright abuse, simply due to the fact that I've found no way around it. A good example is C15, where you I found you need to kill like 7-10 people (some having 2 range) with 2 people in one enemy phase, one of whom has to be a caster so you can properly rescue in the correct location next turn. Said caster needs to have like 15 uses of Nosferatu (and thus HAS to be a chick -- Yumina, Mal, or Linde), must avoid a OHKO from any given enemy (they have 37-39 ATK), and must double and ORKO them. So you need a Linde with like 38 HP, ~21 MAG (after RP and sphere and statboosters), and 24 SPD. There are a bunch of other strats where crits with killers/shaver may be necessary too, or ones where hit rates of 70% might need to be hit a few times. It's not that there's no strategy involved, it's more that RNG abuse AND strategy is involved.

However, there are many FEs (probably most of them) where RNG abuse needed is much less severe -- these tend to be the ones that dondon has done 0% growth efficiency runs; in these, enemies aren't strong enough that it's required or you get people like Marcus or Seth or Miledy or the ilk that work well at base -- then LTC comes down to stocking up on buyable boots (FE6 =P) or some other gimmick and then using the proper strats.

Especially for players who, I believe, at least some of them have expressed a desire to not "waste" any more of their time playing the game than necessary. Perhaps they haven't noticed that time doesn't not pass just because the game forgets that it does?

That sounds like speedrunning, not LTC.

Edited February 5, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Othin]

That means you don't try to kill 7-10 enemies with two characters in one enemy phase. There's your way around it: stop going for minimum turns.

I'm not talking about speedruns; those require resetting as well. But yes, that's exactly the point: I'm talking about not doing LTC.

[Anouleth]

The latter reason is precisely my feeling about it.

I find it amusing how much LTC insists itself to be "efficient" while ignoring the inherent inefficiency of unnecessary resetting, ever.

If you think that efficiency tier lists don't care about resetting, you need to go and actually read an efficiency tier list. There was a huge shitstorm on the FE9 tier list when it was suggested that Marcia not be penalised for her unreliability in ORKOing Muarim in Chapter 15, for instance, where I made the point that good characters shouldn't need resets. Aran is consistently marked down for his low luck which puts him at risk of criticals. Edward is marked down for needing to be exactly on his speed average to maintain doubling. Gonzales is marked down for his abysmal accuracy. And indeed, the units that are usually prized by efficiency tier lists (prepromoted jeigans) are usually extremely reliable since they can't be RNG screwed.

Now, an LTC playthrough might judiciously reset, but an LTC playthrough =/= an efficiency tier list.

[Othin]

I don't think anything about LTC tier lists, because I don't care about them. I pay no attention to them and make no criticisms of them. You know this.

[Aethereal]

The latter reason is precisely my feeling about it.

I find it amusing how much LTC insists itself to be "efficient" while ignoring the inherent inefficiency of unnecessary resetting, ever. Especially for players who, I believe, at least some of them have expressed a desire to not "waste" any more of their time playing the game than necessary. Perhaps they haven't noticed that time doesn't not pass just because the game forgets that it does?

Why is it that every one who doesn't play LTC has to be so fucking smug and condescending about it? Do you know how much of an ass you look like right now? This kind of post is crap, and you will never see an LTC player talking the same way about any other playstyle, despite the fact that every one-yourself most definitely included-gets so damn butthurt about LTC runs.

[CrashGordon94]

The amount of variety is pitiful as it is. It needs to be expanded, not reduced.

1) Not all variety is good.

2) One single fucking change that would easily fix a problem!

So it definitely outweighs your precious freaking variety!