Which one

[MacLovin]

Well, I can't decide which one to use, and Dorcas, BArtre, and Dart take a lot of work to become useable.

Well, I leave this in the capable hands of SF.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Well, I can't decide which one to use, and Dorcas, BArtre, and Dart take a lot of work to become useable.

Well, I leave this in the capable hands of SF.

Because you forgot the "prepromotes can DIAF" or "Pent, obviously" options, I'm going to go with Hawkeye, simply because the berserker crit bonus is nice and because the Ocean Seal is far easier to miss than the Hero Crest.

The correct answer is, of course, none -- or Pent if you can't resist him.

[MacLovin]

Already planning on using Pent if Erk doesn't turn out well.

[Integrity]

Because you forgot the "prepromotes can DIAF" or "Pent, obviously" options,

You're cute.

Anyway, Geitz because he's a pretty cool guy.

[Raven]

In any mode, I'd imagine Harken to be the best choice. But really, they are all pretty great pre-promotes. No harm in using them all at all.

[Elieson]

Raven, or Hawkeye. crit isn't something to rely on, but at least he can take advantage of it ite and then.

Sent from my Android

*Voted for Geitz anyway*

Edited November 17, 2011 by Charlie

[Specta]

My vote's for Geitz! :D

[Thor Odinson]

I like all three o 3o

Harken if you /had/ to pick.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

You're cute.

I have no idea if that was a compliment or a thinly veiled bash at my intelligence.

[Integrity]

I have no idea if that was a compliment or a thinly veiled bash at my intelligence.

Entirely the latter.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Entirely the latter.

Figured. You never were my biggest fan, after all.

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of prepromotes simply because they're in that weird region where they're not quite as good fully trained as most people you pick up from early game and using them before the rest of your party gets to around their level is just asking to hurt your experience rank. But if you're playing hard mode non-ranked or were like G_H and capped experience rank early, I guess you have a valid-ish reason to use them.

But, in general (Pent not included so much because you'd need Nino to outclass his stupidly good bases), prepromotes are cheaper/lazier ways that give you less in the end. So I despise them, as they're frankly useless to me. And I guess that makes me some kind of an idiot for thinking like that.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[MacLovin]

I'm leaning towards Hawkeye, because Night of Farewells is a bitch

[eclipse]

Figured. You never were my biggest fan, after all.

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of prepromotes simply because they're in that weird region where they're not quite as good fully trained as most people you pick up from early game and using them before the rest of your party gets to around their level is just asking to hurt your experience rank. But if you're playing hard mode non-ranked or were like G_H and capped experience rank early, I guess you have a valid-ish reason to use them.

But, in general (Pent not included so much because you'd need Nino to outclass his stupidly good bases), prepromotes are cheaper/lazier ways that give you less in the end. So I despise them, as they're frankly useless to me. And I guess that makes me some kind of an idiot for thinking like that.

A unit is made up of several things - name, portrait, class, base stats, weapon ranks, inventory, growths, etc. In terms of gameplay, class, base stats, weapon ranks, and growths are important. Class determines what a unit can and can't do, because good luck trying to get Lucius to walk on the ocean. Base stats tell you how effective a unit is from the start. Weapon ranks help to determine inventory. Growths tell you what kind of potential a character has.

Potential is nice, because it shows you what the unit can possibly become. Bases tell you what a unit is right now. The prepromotes that people like either have crazy potential (namely, the SD Horsemen), they have really nice bases (Pent), or both (General!Sedgar in SD). There's some who are prepromotes whose bases absolutely fail no matter what (like most of the late-joiners in NM on a mode that has an H in it). . .in which case, they're not used.

If you like growing your units, then prepromotes are bad, because they tend to gain less EXP, and thus, level slower (and probably worse than their non-prepromoted counterparts). If you like getting through the game in an efficient manner, then prepromotes with good bases are desirable, because you aren't looking to tap a unit's full potential growth. It all depends on how you play, and what you want out of the game.

feel free to run me over

[MacLovin]

Well, I like using a mixture of both.

And, I know that Nino sucks.

[Thor Odinson]

Yeah, like eclipse said, it really depends on playstyle. I go for a medium-fast paced style, and I'd rather focus on strategies itself rather than babying growth units unless they are honestly worth it (good join time, good enough base for their join time, etc), such as Rutger, unless I /really/ like them as a character (coughFE12Malicecough). Lategame growth units, I find, are a waste of time if you already established a substantial team to carry through. For me, shiny end stats are nice, but not necessary as long as the unit can do his/her job fine, and making me waste time babying a unit (again, exception is when I really like the character as a character) when I could be otherwise completeing the chapter. I feel it just drags out unnecessarily, and prepromotes are good for not making me train a number of growth units that aren't that great nor do I care about as characters at all. I also tend to prefer the characters of prepromotes themselves, personality-wise.

I can see the appeal of babying a weak unit up to become killing machines, but I just find them a waste of my time. I play FE because I /don't'/ have to grind. Plus I hate kids. Prepromotes tend to be older and more mature characters, which appeal to me more.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Yeah, like eclipse said, it really depends on playstyle. I go for a medium-fast paced style, and I'd rather focus on strategies itself rather than babying growth units unless they are honestly worth it (good join time, good enough base for their join time, etc), such as Rutger, unless I /really/ like them as a character (coughFE12Malicecough). Lategame growth units, I find, are a waste of time if you already established a substantial team to carry through. For me, shiny end stats are nice, but not necessary as long as the unit can do his/her job fine, and making me waste time babying a unit (again, exception is when I really like the character as a character) when I could be otherwise completeing the chapter. I feel it just drags out unnecessarily, and prepromotes are good for not making me train a number of growth units that aren't that great nor do I care about as characters at all. I also tend to prefer the characters of prepromotes themselves, personality-wise.

I can see the appeal of babying a weak unit up to become killing machines, but I just find them a waste of my time. I play FE because I /don't'/ have to grind. Plus I hate kids. Prepromotes tend to be older and more mature characters, which appeal to me more.

I understand perfectly, but the thing with Nino (the late-game growth character that your refer to) is that she can catch up to the rest of the team level-wise by the end Cogs of Destiny and close-ish stat-wise by the end of Night of Farewells, as long as you're playing HM. HM, at least in FE7's XP calcs, SEVERELY punishes your XP growth if you are even slightly overleveled and puts a real soft cap on the level any unit can have at any time. It's not unusual for many units to be 20/5 to 20/10 max going into Light, even if you've been using them all game, while Nino can get up to 20/2 by turn 10 of CoD.

I mean, my god, 20/2 Nino is probably better than base Pent and will only get better, faster than he ever will and level up slightly faster since she's at a lower level than he is. Don't get me wrong, though; some prepromos are nice -- Pent is probably my "favorite", simply because it takes Erk until 20/20 to compete statistically with Pent and even then I almost think Pent edges it out.

I honest to god have no idea where this "Nino sucks" idea comes from. She a damn godsend in a ranked run, especially if you're playing EHM and decide not to abuse the ever living hell out of FFO arena. You really don't even have to sacrifice turn count to really train her in Night of Farewells, even on NM (and especially no on HM, because there is so much crap thrown at you you're going to be moving slow and have TONS of opportunities for Nino to finish off enemies).

[dondon151]

But, in general (Pent not included so much because you'd need Nino to outclass his stupidly good bases), prepromotes are cheaper/lazier ways that give you less in the end. So I despise them, as they're frankly useless to me. And I guess that makes me some kind of an idiot for thinking like that.

What some people like you don't seem to realize is that "potential" is wasted if it is no more useful to have 26 spd than it is to have 18 spd. The result is that prepromoted units don't generally give you less in the end even if they're worse in terms of parameters, because past a certain point, an extra point in any stat just doesn't really matter.

But yes, you guessed correctly - that makes you a closed-minded idiot.

You really don't even have to sacrifice turn count to really train her in Night of Farewells, even on NM (and especially no on HM, because there is so much crap thrown at you you're going to be moving slow and have TONS of opportunities for Nino to finish off enemies).

Nino going from level 5 to level 20 in 7 turns on chapter 28x sounds pretty impossible to me.

Edited November 17, 2011 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Nino going from level 5 to level 20 in 7 turns on chapter 28x sounds pretty impossible to me.

I counter this statement, and thus I present the counter-argument "Gameshark". Anything is possible with Gameshark; even Nino being good!

Also, I nearly busted a gut when I heard that Pent could be worse than Nino. Pent is like the boss of Sages, what are you smoking man?

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

What some people like you don't seem to realize is that "potential" is wasted if it is no more useful to have 26 spd than it is to have 18 spd. The result is that prepromoted units don't generally give you less in the end even if they're worse in terms of parameters, because past a certain point, an extra point in any stat just doesn't really matter.

But yes, you guessed correctly - that makes you a closed-minded idiot.

Nino going from level 5 to level 20 in 7 turns on chapter 28x sounds pretty impossible to me.

This is such a silly post.

1) 18 vs. 26 SPD is not meaningless, although I'd argue that you're going to be doubling a fair number of enemies anyways past around 18-20 SPD, even on HHM, since they like to throw more enemies rather than harder enemies much of the time. However, 26 SPD means you're going to be doubling faster, harder enemies, and it's always nice to have on Final (Uhai, Linus, Lloyd). Never mind the 16 extra avoid you so casually ignore, especially since each point of avoid is worth more than the last, generally speaking. Never mind that it's generally difficult to get to a point where extra STR/MAG/SKL don't matter unless you consistently ORKO even the strongest enemies on HHM with freakishly high hit rates.

2) I never said Nino goes from level 5 to level 20 in Night of Farewells alone. She usually goes to level 5 to around level 13 in most S rank logs I've seen, and with her nice bases (for a level 5) and great growths, a 13/-- is about statistically equal to a 20/-- Erk (average level for the more preferred units on a S rank HM run generally is about 20/1 - 20/3), which is probably the closest comparison I'm going to draw, since Erk has fairly "average" growth rates for a character and is the same class as Nino. I said Nino tends to be close to the average party level (around 20/-- to 20/1) by the end of Cogs of Destiny -- and you'd want to feed kills to her for the experience rank, the same reason you'd want to "share the love" concerning experience throughout the whole game. Even if its unranked HM, you're giving up a couple levels on Erk to raise Nino from 13/-- to 20/1, who is, at 13/--, probably only slightly worse off stat wise and who will end up better than him as a 20/1 sage than Erk would as a 20/4 sage.

3) 7 turns for Night of Farewells is pretty stupid, mainly because it makes it almost impossible to not screw over your funds rank (and for sure, your experience rank). Not everything should be viewed in the lens of pure efficiency, particularly when such a method screws you over in a ranking system the game actually endorses (S rank). So, really, calling me a close-minded fool is kind of the pot calling the kettle black. As eclipse even noted (or very strongly implied), prepromotes tend to look way better in the lens of sheer efficiency than when viewed in any other manner (and probably worst when S ranking, since you'll very rarely need the extra funds with intelligent stealing and item use).

I don't have anything against people using prepromotes, they have their own definite uses, but I do have something against people being arrogant jerks who apparently fail at reading and contribute nothing to a discussion.

P.S. A 20/1 or 20/2 Nino is about equal to a base or 20/7 Pent. Nino can reasonably get up to 20/10 in a S rank HM playthrough, which is equal to better statistically to a 20/20 Pent (which probably isn't going to happen). Pent's only advantage at this point over Nino realistically is Physic usage, but you're probably going to have 1-2 promoted healers in a S rank playthrough, so...meh.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[MacLovin]

I understand perfectly, but the thing with Nino (the late-game growth character that your refer to) is that she can catch up to the rest of the team level-wise by the end Cogs of Destiny and close-ish stat-wise by the end of Night of Farewells, as long as you're playing HM. HM, at least in FE7's XP calcs, SEVERELY punishes your XP growth if you are even slightly overleveled and puts a real soft cap on the level any unit can have at any time. It's not unusual for many units to be 20/5 to 20/10 max going into Light, even if you've been using them all game, while Nino can get up to 20/2 by turn 10 of CoD.

I mean, my god, 20/2 Nino is probably better than base Pent and will only get better, faster than he ever will and level up slightly faster since she's at a lower level than he is. Don't get me wrong, though; some prepromos are nice -- Pent is probably my "favorite", simply because it takes Erk until 20/20 to compete statistically with Pent and even then I almost think Pent edges it out.

I honest to god have no idea where this "Nino sucks" idea comes from. She a damn godsend in a ranked run, especially if you're playing EHM and decide not to abuse the ever living hell out of FFO arena. You really don't even have to sacrifice turn count to really train her in Night of Farewells, even on NM (and especially no on HM, because there is so much crap thrown at you you're going to be moving slow and have TONS of opportunities for Nino to finish off enemies).

I counter this statement, and thus I present the counter-argument "Gameshark". Anything is possible with Gameshark; even Nino being good!

Also, I nearly busted a gut when I heard that Pent could be worse than Nino. Pent is like the boss of Sages, what are you smoking man?

I agree that other anima users are far better than nino.

My playstyle doesn't really work if the army has to slow down to protect Nino, Wil, Dart, or some other squishy underleveled unit.

At least Raven, Guy, Legault, and Heath can reliably do their job without massive babying.

Try training All hero crest users, all orion bolt users, and all knight crest users.

After doing that, I discovered that prepromoted units are incredibly useful.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Silver Harpoon

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

But, all of the other anima users are far better than nino.

My playstyle doesn't really work if the army has to slow down to protect Nino, Wil, Dart, or some other squishy underleveled unit.

At least Raven, Guy, Legault, and Heath can reliably do their job without massive babying.

If you have problems raising Nino, don't raise Nino. But I honestly never had to slow down my army to raise her, just have her walk slightly behind my main forces and finish off kills that they chip. And even that lasts for maybe 6-7 turns (she levels up FAST), and you really only have to get her to 10/-- (NM) or 13/-- (HM) for her to just stand in the forest tile on Cogs of Destiny and trash knights/generals, who traditionally have crap resistance. Her high speed + forest avo means she doesn't get hit much, and you always have a use or two of Ninis' Grace if you're worried about her dying.

Nino, on average, can gain about a level per turn if you do it right.

...But before this becomes a pissing match between me and dondon/Colonel M (I can see it coming), let's get back to the main topic: Prepromote of choice.

Harken: He's probably the hardest of the three to get (not saying much), since you can get Karel instead if you screw it up. In a couple key stats (SPD, SKL, mostly), he's probably a poor man's Raven, but is generally considered a better unit than Karel and does come with a RES/DEF lead on Raven that lasts until 20/20 (although Raven's HP is generally about 5-6 higher by the levels you'll se in late-game), which should be of note in a game with status staves and a fair number of casters. He also has a slightly higher CON, making his lower speed than Raven less noticeable when using the Hand Axe. He's also 20/8 on starting, which can be an issue if you're gunning to 5* experience rank -- not to say he shouldn't or can't be used, but you don't want to use him very often until late-game or until your XP total is solid.

Hawkeye: Kind of mediocre growths, but he doesn't have that bad of bases, and he does come with that crit bonus. Combined with a killer axe, he's your best bet to top 50-55% crit on a unit in a S rank run. He's also definitely useful in HHM Living Legend and is required to be fielded in Genesis.

Geitz: His growth rates, upon inspection, are actually only slightly less than Bartre's; combined with his bases, he turns out slightly worse than an equal level Bartre in HP/STR, notably worse in RES, but has a 2 point gain in SPD, which might be nice, since I can probably see 19 AS doubling a little more than 17 AS would. He also will likely have a 2 level lead on Bartre by late-game if you've been reliably training Bartre. That being said, Bartre is the sheer definition of a mediocre character, particularly since he will never double and enemy DEF is rarely high enough for his high STR to shine, so saying Geitz is roughly equal to Bartre isn't exactly saying much.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[MacLovin]

...But before this becomes a pissing match between me and dondon/Colonel M (I can see it coming), let's get back to the main topic: Prepromote of choice.

I'm going to sig that someday...........

[Thor Odinson]

Nino's only use I can think of is a bit of contribution to the exp rank.

She's level five. FIVE, for god sakes. I don't care how good she comes out. I don't care if she caps every stat. It's gonna take more turns than I like to train her, and like I said, I hate having to baby units. I hate lolis and shotas unless they're Asvel-level amazing. And she will never be as good as Pent. Beyond that Pent has epic bases that puts a good portion of your team to shame, he also has A RANK STAVES. Nino will NEVER reach A rank staves. EVER.

AND he's hot.

I have a friend who use Nino. And that's fine since he acknowledges that his playstyle is fairly slow. This is the opposite of my playstyle, which blitzes through things. And I don't give a crap if you want to use Nino or not. But she does slow things down and will never be as good as Pent given a reasonable timeframe.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Luminescent Blade

[Dark Sage]

1) 18 vs. 26 SPD is not meaningless, although I'd argue that you're going to be doubling a fair number of enemies anyways past around 18-20 SPD, even on HHM, since they like to throw more enemies rather than harder enemies much of the time. However, 26 SPD means you're going to be doubling faster, harder enemies, and it's always nice to have on Final (Uhai, Linus, Lloyd). Never mind the 16 extra avoid you so casually ignore, especially since each point of avoid is worth more than the last, generally speaking. Never mind that it's generally difficult to get to a point where extra STR/MAG/SKL don't matter unless you consistently ORKO even the strongest enemies on HHM with freakishly high hit rates.

Uh, there's something Nino has called terrible Con and it makes her unable to use the stronger tomes without massive AS loss. Nino doesn't get 26 AS btw until like 20/10 which is impossible and her taking an Elfire reduces her AS from 26 to 20. At 20/1, it drops it from 20 (her average) to 14. She also only has 15 magic (23 attack) with Elfire. Base Pent has 26 attack with Elfire and 15 AS and didn't need extreme training and a guiding ring to get up to that point. Promoted Nino loses AS from any tome but Fire. That's pathetic.

Also it's physically impossible for anyone to double Uhai and Lloyd and impossible for Nino to ever double Jerme and Ursula as well. So she's not good at fighting such bosses.

2) I never said Nino goes from level 5 to level 20 in Night of Farewells alone. She usually goes to level 5 to around level 13 in most S rank logs I've seen, and with her nice bases (for a level 5) and great growths, a 13/-- is about statistically equal to a 20/-- Erk (average level for the more preferred units on a S rank HM run generally is about 20/1 - 20/3), which is probably the closest comparison I'm going to draw, since Erk has fairly "average" growth rates for a character and is the same class as Nino.

I don't really give a shit if Nino has good bases for her level and Erk has "average" growth rates for a character. If Nino is unable to help me kill enemies and gets like, OHKO'd in return, she is hindering the completion of the map while Erk is not.

I said Nino tends to be close to the average party level (around 20/-- to 20/1) by the end of Cogs of Destiny -- and you'd want to feed kills to her for the experience rank, the same reason you'd want to "share the love" concerning experience throughout the whole game. Even if its unranked HM, you're giving up a couple levels on Erk to raise Nino from 13/-- to 20/1, who is, at 13/--, probably only slightly worse off stat wise and who will end up better than him as a 20/1 sage than Erk would as a 20/4 sage.

Even in a Ranked Run, Nino's still better benched since I have other shitheads who can contribute to EXP with better durability and offense. In an efficiency run, I don't really need an extra combat unit that requires all that effort and still doesn't come out better than anyone else on my team.

3) 7 turns for Night of Farewells is pretty stupid, mainly because it makes it almost impossible to not screw over your funds rank (and for sure, your experience rank). Not everything should be viewed in the lens of pure efficiency, particularly when such a method screws you over in a ranking system the game actually endorses (S rank).

Funds rank is hard to screw up and going fast on Night of Farewells is not going to hurt it. Simply don't promote Dart, don't recruit Farina, and don't be an idiot when you buy things with the Silver Card.

So, really, calling me a close-minded fool is kind of the pot calling the kettle black. As eclipse even noted (or very strongly implied), prepromotes tend to look way better in the lens of sheer efficiency than when viewed in any other manner (and probably worst when S ranking, since you'll very rarely need the extra funds with intelligent stealing and item use).

Prepromotes are awesome in a ranked run. They always contribute to Funds, they usually contribute to Combat, and they almost always contribute to Tactics. Pent can also contribute to Experience since he uses staves and thus can gain experience without needing to take away a kill from another unit.

I don't have anything against people using prepromotes, they have their own definite uses, but I do have something against people being arrogant jerks who apparently fail at reading and contribute nothing to a discussion.

LOL!

P.S. A 20/1 or 20/2 Nino is about equal to a base or 20/7 Pent. Nino can reasonably get up to 20/10 in a S rank HM playthrough, which is equal to better statistically to a 20/20 Pent (which probably isn't going to happen). Pent's only advantage at this point over Nino realistically is Physic usage, but you're probably going to have 1-2 promoted healers in a S rank playthrough, so...meh.

It's like Barrier, Warp, Rescue, Restore, and status staves don't even exist now. Those are big advantages over Nino.

@Bolded: ROFL.

Edited November 17, 2011 by Dark Sage

[CT075]

...But before this becomes a pissing match between me and dondon/Colonel M (I can see it coming), let's get back to the main topic: Prepromote of choice.

Being entirely fair, dondon would own you in a pissing match any day. You just don't argue with a guy who can SSS-rank FE5 without growths. (If that means nothing, he's the guy who's known around here as 'that guy who broke the HHM turncount records while playing FE7 with all growths set to 0%)