Which one

[MacLovin]

Being entirely fair, dondon would own you in a pissing match any day. You just don't argue with a guy who can SSS-rank FE5 without growths. (If that means nothing, he's the guy who's known around here as 'that guy who broke the HHM turncount records while playing FE7 with all growths set to 0%)

Then I'm honored to recieve information from him.

I mean, no matter how good the others are, he's got to be the among the best to take advice from.

[dondon151]

*cracks knuckles*

1) 18 vs. 26 SPD is not meaningless, although I'd argue that you're going to be doubling a fair number of enemies anyways past around 18-20 SPD, even on HHM, since they like to throw more enemies rather than harder enemies much of the time. However, 26 SPD means you're going to be doubling faster, harder enemies, and it's always nice to have on Final (Uhai, Linus, Lloyd).

List of enemies in chapter 31 that 26 AS doubles but 18 AS doesn't double:

2x myrmidon

1x swordmaster

Denning

That's 4 out of 37 starting enemies on the map, and about 50 more reinforcements throughout the entire chapter. You actually only need about 16 AS to double every enemy on the map except for these 4.

List of enemies in chapter 32 that 26 AS doubles but 18 AS doesn't double:

4x hero

That's 4 out of 39 starting enemies on the map. 2 of the level 8 heroes start off with Silver Axes equipped, and if they have 16 spd, then they're also doubled by 18 AS. 16 AS gets all snipers, warriors, and magic users. Some paladins and most wyvern lords require 17 AS.

Non-exhaustive list of prepromoted units who have 16 AS:

--/13 Marcus with Speedwings

--/11 Geitz

--/9 Isadora when weighed down by a Silver Lance

--/12 Vaida with Speedwings

Summary: there virtually no difference between 18 and 26 AS, or even really between 16 and 26 AS in this game. The 8 or so enemies out of 100+ that you miss out on doubling can be teamed up on, and you won't do any worse. If you really care about doubling fast enemies, then it's time to whip out the braves.

Never mind the 16 extra avoid you so casually ignore, especially since each point of avoid is worth more than the last, generally speaking.

Units are durable enough that an extra 16 avo doesn't matter, anyway. Unless you plan to engage 5 enemies at once with units as durable as Isadora, no one cares about extra avo at that point.

Never mind that it's generally difficult to get to a point where extra STR/MAG/SKL don't matter unless you consistently ORKO even the strongest enemies on HHM with freakishly high hit rates.

A level 6 enemy general in chapter 31 has 44 HP, 10 res on average. You need 34 magic atk to ORKO this dude. No one has 34 magic atk at this point. Even your beloved Nino needs to be 20/18 to scrape 34 magic atk with Elfire.

2) I never said Nino goes from level 5 to level 20 in Night of Farewells alone. She usually goes to level 5 to around level 13 in most S rank logs I've seen, and with her nice bases (for a level 5) and great growths, a 13/-- is about statistically equal to a 20/-- Erk (average level for the more preferred units on a S rank HM run generally is about 20/1 - 20/3), which is probably the closest comparison I'm going to draw, since Erk has fairly "average" growth rates for a character and is the same class as Nino.

What? 20/-- Erk beats 13/-- Nino in every stat but luk, and wins by a huge margin in HP.

I said Nino tends to be close to the average party level (around 20/-- to 20/1) by the end of Cogs of Destiny -- and you'd want to feed kills to her for the experience rank, the same reason you'd want to "share the love" concerning experience throughout the whole game.

Why the fuck would you want to deploy Nino in chapter 29? This is the same chapter in which Nino:

- Does not ORKO any unpromoted enemy unit (she needs to be 17/-- in order to even ORKO enemy shamans with Elfire)

- Does not damage promoted enemy magic units unless she uses Elfire

- Gets doubled by enemy valkyries until 15/-- if she has Fire equipped (and of course, does no damage in return)

- Gets silenced by the enemy 26 mag druid and does not provide a Restore use in return

Even if its unranked HM, you're giving up a couple levels on Erk to raise Nino from 13/-- to 20/1, who is, at 13/--, probably only slightly worse off stat wise and who will end up better than him as a 20/1 sage than Erk would as a 20/4 sage.

No! This is wrong, wrong, wrong! 20/1 Nino wins mag by 0.7 and spd by 2, but loses 2 con (negating any spd advantage) and a whopping 5 HP. And in unranked HHM, neither Erk nor Nino are reaching 20/-- in the first place before promotion.

3) 7 turns for Night of Farewells is pretty stupid, mainly because it makes it almost impossible to not screw over your funds rank (and for sure, your experience rank). Not everything should be viewed in the lens of pure efficiency,

When someone asks a question in the absence of context, you don't suggest an answer assuming that 2 other arbitrary ranks are important. But anyway, the original quote of yours that I responded to is that a player doesn't "even have to sacrifice turn count to really train her" in chapter 28x, and I think I've very adequately shown the converse. You can definitely clear this map in 7 turns (likely fewer, even), and you just cannot get Nino from 5/-- to 13/-- in 7 turns.

(and probably worst when S ranking, since you'll very rarely need the extra funds with intelligent stealing and item use).

You'll very rarely need to use Nino with intelligent unit rotation either; what's your point?

Edited November 18, 2011 by dondon151

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Uh, there's something Nino has called terrible Con and it makes her unable to use the stronger tomes without massive AS loss. Nino doesn't get 26 AS btw until like 20/10 which is impossible and her taking an Elfire reduces her AS from 26 to 20. At 20/1, it drops it from 20 (her average) to 14. She also only has 15 magic (23 attack) with Elfire. Base Pent has 26 attack with Elfire and 15 AS and didn't need extreme training and a guiding ring to get up to that point. Promoted Nino loses AS from any tome but Fire. That's pathetic.

Also it's physically impossible for anyone to double Uhai and Lloyd and impossible for Nino to ever double Jerme and Ursula as well. So she's not good at fighting such bosses.

Technically, a speed capped assassin can reliably double Uhai (27 AS) in all but HHM, and possibly in HHM, since 27 speed is only the average and HHM bonuses do fluctuate, IIRC. But I'm splitting hairs here. However, even in the case of Uhai, Nino can get to the point in a reasonable HM S rank run (20/7) where Uhai will not double her, while Pent will always be doubled.

Ursula has 18 AS with her tome, so Nino can double her by 20/4, while Pent has to be 20/18.

Jerme has 22 AS with his Lightbrand, so Nino can double him by 20/11 (a bit in the high range, but possible if she walks into the level @ 20/10), while Pent will never double and gets doubled unless 20/8 on average (easy enough to do).

Darin, probably the biggie here and with 16 AS, is doubled by a 20/-- Nino (no joke), while Pent has to be 20/13 (with enough physic/warp use, he could reach it).

Lloyd, with 29 AS, will double Nino until 20/9 and always double Pent. So Nino MAY not be doubled depending on the run, but Pent is basically screwed.

Linus, with 20 AS, is doubled by a 20/7 Nino but never by Pent.

Kenneth, with 13 AS, is doubled by a 15/-- Nino and a base Pent.

Brendan, with 18 AS, is the same as Ursula; Nino doubles by 20/4, Pent has to be 20/18.

So, looking at a 20/7 Nino and a 20/11 Pent by Final (that's 20/7 Nino from my EHM S rank run and a 20/11 Pent from General_Horace's HHM S rank run, who basically used a full prepromote team after he reached his experience rank):

Nino doubles Ursula, Darin, Linus, Kenneth, and Brendan, and is only doubled by Lloyd. She loses doubling Linus on average on Thunder tome, but that's it.

Pent doubles Kenneth, and is doubled by Jerme and Lloyd.

20/11 Pent has a 2 MAG gain on 20/7 Nino, so Nino has to be doubling for like 6 damage with her Fire tome for Pent to tie her with a thunder tome. I'm pretty sure Nino wins in the combat department. However, as I'll state a second time, Pent has A rank staff, which makes him more flexible (however, I can and have literally fielded like a 15/-- Priscilla and have her heal sufficiently with a physic staff, and watch as she gets double the experience as Pent per use, or field Serra, who can also use staves and gets a bonus to combat experience; when trying to meet an experience rank, both are important). I'd give the edge to Nino on a S rank run, which heavily encourages her training and Serra's/Prissy's fielding (either from double staff XP or increased combat XP in second tier), but Pent the edge on unranked.

As for Elfire...how often do you honestly use Elfire, since it happens to be heavy enough to prevent Nino, Erk, AND Pent from reliably doubling. It's uses are rather rare compared to Fire/Thunder, and Nino only loses 1 AS form Thunder as a sage.

I don't really give a shit if Nino has good bases for her level and Erk has "average" growth rates for a character. If Nino is unable to help me kill enemies and gets like, OHKO'd in return, she is hindering the completion of the map while Erk is not.

How about I put it this way -- Nino is so much better statistically that she ties a 20/-- Erk in as few as 8-10 kills on Night of Farewells. You make it sound like it's hard to raise her, but really, a 13/-- to 15/-- Nino is roughly as strong as a 20/-- Erk...not to mention she literally does gain like 80-100 experience sniping a promoted unit kill and about half that for unpromoted units (which I think she ends up ORKO'ing by 13/--). Oh, and to sweeten the deal, I believe she's free in NoF...doesn't cost a deployment slot.

Even in a Ranked Run, Nino's still better benched since I have other shitheads who can contribute to EXP with better durability and offense. In an efficiency run, I don't really need an extra combat unit that requires all that effort and still doesn't come out better than anyone else on my team.

Not sure what to say...she's pretty much self-sustainable by turn 10-12 of HM NoF and turn 6-ish in NM NoF. And she has 1-2 range to prevent counters. She's not hard to raise. At all.

Funds rank is hard to screw up and going fast on Night of Farewells is not going to hurt it. Simply don't promote Dart, don't recruit Farina, and don't be an idiot when you buy things with the Silver Card.

I actually mis-typed on that. I meant to say Funds rank isn't that huge of a huge deal with smart use of the silver card and stealing, which means you can usually end up promoting like 8 or so units whilst still recruiting Farina and meeting the 5* Funds ranking. A big advantage of prepromos is that you don't need a promotion item, but since I'm going to 5* funds either way really, why not use them?

Prepromotes are awesome in a ranked run. They always contribute to Funds, they usually contribute to Combat, and they almost always contribute to Tactics. Pent can also contribute to Experience since he uses staves and thus can gain experience without needing to take away a kill from another unit.

Yeah, you're right, I always fail to 5* combat, and 5* funds is SO hard... Also, as I mentioned earlier, Pent gains half the XP from using staves as an unpromoted healer and doesn't benefit from the combat XP bonus like your promoted healers. And, if you're only using him for staves to prevent him from trashing the experience rank, Serra tends to do that well enough that Pent is a little bit overkill.

Tbh, I think I'd be more inclined to replace Serra in an unranked run with Pent, since at 20/20, she never beats him in MAG, slightly beats him in SPD, beats him in RES (but it starts to get a little bit ridiculous past 20 RES), and loses terribly in DEF (which probably matters more). She, at best, ties with him at 20/20, and that's only because of her better growths. He's realistically hands down better every level before then, and can use every staff in the game. Seriously, if we're going this route, field Nino AND Pent, treating Pent as a healer w/ benefits and dumping Serra ASAP.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[eclipse]

I understand perfectly, but the thing with Nino (the late-game growth character that your refer to) is that she can catch up to the rest of the team level-wise by the end Cogs of Destiny and close-ish stat-wise by the end of Night of Farewells, as long as you're playing HM. HM, at least in FE7's XP calcs, SEVERELY punishes your XP growth if you are even slightly overleveled and puts a real soft cap on the level any unit can have at any time. It's not unusual for many units to be 20/5 to 20/10 max going into Light, even if you've been using them all game, while Nino can get up to 20/2 by turn 10 of CoD.

I believe you're doing a log of ranked HHM run right now? DO WHAT'S BOLDED.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I believe you're doing a log of ranked HHM run right now? DO WHAT'S BOLDED.

Fine, challenge accepted. She was 20/2 on my EHM run, and I'm pretty sure I can reasonably get her to around that in HHM. We'll see, maybe I'm wrong.

[Life]

I honest to god have no idea where this "Nino sucks" idea comes from. She a damn godsend in a ranked run, especially if you're playing EHM and decide not to abuse the ever living hell out of FFO arena. You really don't even have to sacrifice turn count to really train her in Night of Farewells, even on NM (and especially no on HM, because there is so much crap thrown at you you're going to be moving slow and have TONS of opportunities for Nino to finish off enemies).

Hate to break it to you but Nino is less of a godsend in the Exp department than... let's look at the list.

Eliwood

Lowen

Rebecca

Dorcas (when not trained via Lyn Mode)

Bartre

Hector

Serra (same as Dorcas)

Matthew (same as Dorcas)

Guy

Priscilla

Lyn (same as Dorcas)

Wil (same as Dorcas)

Sain (same...)

Kent (same...)

Florina (same...)

Raven

Lucius (same...)

So essentially half of the earlygame characters have the same effect as Nino on the Exp rank. Less depending on who gets levels in Lyn Mode.

As for Nino in Ranking runs, I've tried. She's... well, she has to eat up a lot of kills and you have to be patient with her and by the time CoD rolls around... yeah, Erk's still better than her, never mind Pent. I didn't have to worry about draining Exp and protecting them very carefully for the majority of the game.

And Erk is never better than Pent. So what if Erk may statically match Pent at 20/20. Are you Snowy's new alt or something? Pent's got freaking A Staves. End of argument.

[eclipse]

Fine, challenge accepted. She was 20/2 on my EHM run, and I'm pretty sure I can reasonably get her to around that in HHM. We'll see, maybe I'm wrong.

Awesome!

(yes, I'm still reading your log)

[I.M. Gei]

Oh, these recent GFAQs transplants are something else...

[General Horace]

You won't be able to get Nino to 20/2 by the end of Cog because she's 100% useless against the enemies there. The reason Pent is there is because of his staff rank.

And mind you Life did his logs quite while back, where new tricks and such have made things easier since then.

Edited November 18, 2011 by General Horace

[Life]

Awesome!

(yes, I'm still reading your log)

I can't wait for this kid to realize that Cog o' Destiny in HHM is all magic based. And to realize how fucked his argument is.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Hate to break it to you but Nino is less of a godsend in the Exp department than... let's look at the list.

Eliwood

Lowen

Rebecca

Dorcas (when not trained via Lyn Mode)

Bartre

Hector

Serra (same as Dorcas)

Matthew (same as Dorcas)

Guy

Priscilla

Lyn (same as Dorcas)

Wil (same as Dorcas)

Sain (same...)

Kent (same...)

Florina (same...)

Raven

Lucius (same...)

So essentially half of the earlygame characters have the same effect as Nino on the Exp rank. Less depending on who gets levels in Lyn Mode.

As for Nino in Ranking runs, I've tried. She's... well, she has to eat up a lot of kills and you have to be patient with her and by the time CoD rolls around... yeah, Erk's still better than her, never mind Pent. I didn't have to worry about draining Exp and protecting them very carefully for the majority of the game.

I mean, you've done EHM (and maybe HHM?) S rank, you know what I mean when you really have to spread experience amongst characters. A couple months ago, when I was getting back into FE7 S ranking, I was looking at your old logs for reference, and I know you were getting almost everybody to 10/--, closer to 15/--, trying to desparately make the EHM 5* XP rank (which I technically never found out if you did since you never posted the final results). Nino essentially gains the experience of a level 5, with the base stats closer to a level 8, and she gains roughly 1.3 levels worth of stats per level (as compared to like Erk or Lucius or...).

I know Nino on EHM S rank wasn't OHKO'd by most non-promoted units as early as 8/--, and her avoid gets pretty high pretty fast. During CoD (assuming she got to 13/-- in NoF, which isn't hard), she essentially gains noticeably more experience while being on par combat-wise with your 19/-- to 20/1 units after gaining a couple levels on the knights (again, not very hard...high avoid, mediocre hit, not OHKO'd even with a silver lance IIRC). And when the generals leak out? Ninis' Grace (1 or 2 uses, max) + forest tile does the trick.

And Erk is never better than Pent. So what if Erk may statically match Pent at 20/20. Are you Snowy's new alt or something? Pent's got freaking A Staves. End of argument.

No, no, I'm hardly disagreeing with this. While I truly wish Erk surpassed Pent, he's at best equal at 20/20 to Pent and just ends up to be more work for less reward. His only advantage is better availability, and tbh I never even find THAT too useful besides maybe in Living Legend, where I scrounge up every caster/flier I have.

P.S. As I've said, I haven't done HHM in a good 5 years. I honestly can't recall CoD's unit placement. If it's way different than I remember (i.e. It's the only mode without the knights/generals), then I'm wrong about Nino's ease of training, period. (EDIT: Yep, it is TOTALLY different. How the hell did I not remember this? I'm going to withdraw my argument, although I will honor eclipse's challenge).

Edited November 18, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[General Horace]

The point Life was trying to make with all the earlygame characters is that they all have a lower or equal base level compared to Nino, so they will contribute just as much or more to the exp rank over the course of the game. When people say "Nino is great for the exp rank" it's kind of an overstatement, as she contributes just the same as anyone else. And Nino has issues getting these kills (since she needs to be babied to get them) whilst the earlygame characters have no such trouble for a long portion of the game.

[Dark Sage]

20/11 Pent has a 2 MAG gain on 20/7 Nino, so Nino has to be doubling for like 6 damage with her Fire tome for Pent to tie her with a thunder tome. I'm pretty sure Nino wins in the combat department. However, as I'll state a second time, Pent has A rank staff, which makes him more flexible (however, I can and have literally fielded like a 15/-- Priscilla and have her heal sufficiently with a physic staff, and watch as she gets double the experience as Pent per use, or field Serra, who can also use staves and gets a bonus to combat experience; when trying to meet an experience rank, both are important). I'd give the edge to Nino on a S rank run, which heavily encourages her training and Serra's/Prissy's fielding (either from double staff XP or increased combat XP in second tier), but Pent the edge on unranked.

20/7 Nino: HP 32.45, Mag 18.5, Skl 19.55, Spd 23.6, Luk 19.45, Def 10.15, Res 20.5, Con 4

w/Fire: 23 Atk, Hit 147, AS 23, Avoid 65, Crit 9

w/ Thunder: 24 Atk, 137 Hit, 22 AS, 63 Avoid, 14 Crit

w/Elfire: 26 Atk, 142 Hit, 17 AS, 53 Avoid, 9 Crit

w/Fimbulvetr: 31 Atk, 147 Hit, 14 AS, 47 Avoid, 9 Crit

20/11 Pent: HP 35.5, Mag 19.5, Skl 22, Spd 19, Luk 16, Def 12.5 (15.5), Res 17.75, Con 8, A Louise

w/Fire: 25 Atk, 165 Hit, 19 AS, Avoid 61, Crit 18

w/Thunder: 26 Atk, 155 hit, 19 AS, 61 Avoid, 23 Crit

w/Elfire: 28 Atk, 160 Hit, 17 AS, 57 Avoid, 18 Crit

w/Fimbulvetr: 33 Atk, 165 Hit, 15 AS, 53 Avoid, 18 Crit

Against Uhai, both are ORKO'd when wielding anything. Offensively, Pent clearly has the advantage with crit and might. Both of them tink Kenneth. Against Brendan, both are OHKO'd against his 52 Attack, though Pent can take a Robe to turn that into a 2HKO. With Thunder, Nino 5RKO's Brendan. If Pent takes Fimbulvetr, he 4RKO's Brendan. Jerme has a Runesword, sporting 20 AS and 30 attack. Nino is 4HKO'd while Pent is 3HKO'd, so Nino wins there. With Elfire, Pent 5HKOs him while Nino 7HKOs him and Jerme can just heal back all the damage. Both tink Ursula so lol. Both are ORKO'd by Lloyd and Brave Sword Linus, but as usual, Pent has the offensive advantage. And thanks to his sexy A in staves, he can Berserk Lloyd or Linus to kill each other. Nino has nothing on that.

Pent kicking Nino's ass is apparently the same as Nino being better at combat apparently.

As for Elfire...how often do you honestly use Elfire, since it happens to be heavy enough to prevent Nino, Erk, AND Pent from reliably doubling. It's uses are rather rare compared to Fire/Thunder, and Nino only loses 1 AS form Thunder as a sage.

Unfortunately I don't have Chapter 30, 31, or 32 enemy stats with me, but --/11 Pent can have 17 AS with Elfire, which is sufficient to double. Otherwise, he can take Thunder and have some schmexy crit on everything.

How about I put it this way -- Nino is so much better statistically that she ties a 20/-- Erk in as few as 8-10 kills on Night of Farewells.

20 Erk: HP 29.35, Mag 12.6, Skl 13.6, Spd 16.5, Luck 8.7, Def 5.8, Res 11.6

13 Nino: HP 23, Mag 11, Skl 12.4, Spd 15.8, Luck 13.6, Def 5.2, Res 14.45

I didn't even factor in a support for Erk. If he got one, he'd be kicking Nino's ass harder than he already is.

You make it sound like it's hard to raise her, but really, a 13/-- to 15/-- Nino is roughly as strong as a 20/-- Erk...not to mention she literally does gain like 80-100 experience sniping a promoted unit kill and about half that for unpromoted units (which I think she ends up ORKO'ing by 13/--). Oh, and to sweeten the deal, I believe she's free in NoF...doesn't cost a deployment slot.

10x Wyvern Rider lvl 14 (Steel Lance)

HP 34-35, Atk 25-26, AS 7-8, Hit 88-90, Avo 14-16, Def 12, Res 3, Crit 4-5 , Ddg 0

1x Wyvern Lord lvl 8 (Steel Lance)

HP 46, Atk 30, AS 12, Hit 98, Avo 24, Def 16, Res 6, Crit 7, Ddg 0

1x Wyvern Lord lvl 8 (Silver Lance)

HP 51, Atk 35, AS 13, Hit 103, Avo 26, Def 16, Res 6, Crit 7, Ddg 0

3x Shaman lvl 14 (Nosferatu)

HP 24-25, Atk 21-22, AS 0-2, Hit 82-84, Avo 0-4, Def 3-5, Res 9-10, Crit 3, Ddg 0

1x Druid lvl 8 (Luna/Sleep)

HP 33, Atk 23, AS 7, Hit 119, Avo 14, Def 6, Res 17, Crit 26, Ddg 0

Staff Accuracy: 157 Hit

1x Pirate lvl 14 (Devil Axe)

HP 31, Atk 32, AS 3, Hit 73, Avo 6, Def 5, Res 1, Crit 4, Ddg 0

1x Pirate lvl 14 (Poison Axe)

HP 33, Atk 18, AS 10, Hit 76, Avo 20, Def 4, Res 3, Crit 4, Ddg 0

1x Pirate lvl 14 (Swordslayer)

HP 31, Atk 24, AS 7, Hit 98, Avo 14, Def 5, Res 2, Crit 9, Ddg 0

1x Pirate lvl 14 (Hand Axe)

HP 32, Atk 21, AS 9, Hit 76, Avo 18, Def 4, Res 3, Crit 4, Ddg 0

1x Pirate lvl 14 (Swordreaver)

HP 32, Atk 23, AS 8, Hit 83, Avo 16, Def 5, Res 3, Crit 9, Ddg 0

3x General lvl 6 (Silver Lance)

HP 41-43, Atk 30-31, AS 5-7, Hit 93-97, Avo 10-14, Def 20, Res 9-11, Crit 4-5, Ddg 0

3x Mage lvl 6 (Bolting/Elfire)

HP 20-23, Atk 18-19/16-17, AS 0/2-3, Hit 72-74/97-99, Avo 0/4-6, Def 3-4, Res 5-6, Crit 3, Ddg 0

1x Sage lvl 14 (Elfire/Silence)

HP 35, Atk 32, AS 10, Hit 115, Avo 20, Def 10, Res 19, Crit 7, Ddg 0

Staff Accuracy: 155 Hit

4x Archer lvl 14 (Steel Bow)

HP 30-32, Atk 19-20, AS 5-7, Hit 90-92, Avo 10-14, Def 5-6, Res 2-3, Crit 5, Ddg 0

2x Archer lvl 14 (Longbow)

HP 30, Atk 15, AS 6, Hit 83-85, Avo 12, Def 5-6, Res 1-3, Crit 4-5, Ddg 0

1x Sniper lvl 8 (Silver Bow)

HP 42, Atk 29, AS 11, Hit 105, Avo 22, Def 10, Res 7, Crit 7, Ddg 0

1x Sniper lvl 5 (Steel Bow)

HP 39, Atk 25, AS 10, Hit 98, Avo 20, Def 9, Res 8, Crit 7, Ddg 0

2x Bishop (Divine/1 has Sleep, 1 has Berserk and stealable Angelic Robe)

HP 34-35, Atk 24, AS 6-7, Hit 109, Avo 12-14, Def 5-6, Res 20-21, Crit 16, Ddg 0

Staff Accuracy: 122 Hit

4x Peg Knight lvl 14 (Javelin)

HP 25-27, Atk 15-17, AS 5-7, Hit 87-91, Avo 10-14, Def 4-6, Res 8-9, Crit 5-6 Ddg 0

1x Falcoknight lvl 8 (Steel Lance)

HP 37, Atk 25, AS 8, Hit 104, Avo 16, Def 8, Res 13, Crit 8, Ddg 0

1x Cavalier lvl 14 (Poison Lance/stealable Antitoxin)

HP 34, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 85, Avo 22, Def 9, Res 3, Crit 5, Ddg 0

1x Paladin lvl 8 (Silver Lance)

HP 43, Atk 30, AS 12, Hit 103, Avo 24, Def 12, Res 9, Crit 7, Ddg 0

3x Mercenary lvl 14 (Poison Sword)

HP 31-33, Atk 13-15, AS 13-14, Hit 100-102, Avo 26-28, Def 7, Res 3-4, Ddg 0

1x Hero lvl 6 (Light Brand/stealable Blue Gem)

HP 43, Atk 23, AS 16, Hit 108, Avo 32, Def 14, Res 9, Crit 9, Ddg 0

Turn 3:

2x Wyvern Rider lvl 13 (Steel Lance)

HP 34-35, Atk 24-25, AS 7, Hit 86-88, Avo 14, Def 12, Res 3, Crit 4, Ddg 0

1x Cavalier lvl 13 (Poison Sword)

HP 33, Atk 15, AS 9, Hit 88, Avo 18, Def 9, Res 3, Crit 4, Ddg 0

1x Nomad lvl 13 (Poison Bow)

HP 26, Atk 14, AS 13, Hit 87, Avo 26, Def 6, Res 2, Crit 5, Ddg 0

OHKO'd by everything but the Poison weapon enemies. Mercenaries double and 2RKO, and everything else OHKOs. Not to mention I have to work at weakening an enemy so Nino can go kill it, then I have to wall her so she doesn't get destroyed on the EP. It's much less work just to kill something outright.

How is Nino getting to 13/0 by the end of Night of Farewells? I am baffled by this proposition.

Not sure what to say...she's pretty much self-sustainable by turn 10-12 of HM NoF and turn 6-ish in NM NoF. And she has 1-2 range to prevent counters. She's not hard to raise. At all.

Nino is not self sustainable by turn 10-12 of NoF. I'm making an assertation too, but I at least provided numbers to show how badly Nino is owned there.

I actually mis-typed on that. I meant to say Funds rank isn't that huge of a huge deal with smart use of the silver card and stealing, which means you can usually end up promoting like 8 or so units whilst still recruiting Farina and meeting the 5* Funds ranking. A big advantage of prepromos is that you don't need a promotion item, but since I'm going to 5* funds either way really, why not use them?

Because if you use too many of them, you can have a lack of liquid funds, making it more difficult to 5* rank funds.

Yeah, you're right, I always fail to 5* combat, and 5* funds is SO hard...

When you make posts like this, you have no right to complain about us being assholes.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, Pent gains half the XP from using staves as an unpromoted healer and doesn't benefit from the combat XP bonus like your promoted healers. And, if you're only using him for staves to prevent him from trashing the experience rank, Serra tends to do that well enough that Pent is a little bit overkill.

When did I say that I'm using Pent only for staves? I'm using him for a mix of his combat and staves, which is potent. Also I seriously doubt he's hurting you experience rank too badly. Less than how Nino is hurting your Tactics rank.

Tbh, I think I'd be more inclined to replace Serra in an unranked run with Pent, since at 20/20, she never beats him in MAG, slightly beats him in SPD, beats him in RES (but it starts to get a little bit ridiculous past 20 RES), and loses terribly in DEF (which probably matters more). She, at best, ties with him at 20/20, and that's only because of her better growths. He's realistically hands down better every level before then, and can use every staff in the game. Seriously, if we're going this route, field Nino AND Pent, treating Pent as a healer w/ benefits and dumping Serra ASAP.

LOL! You're willing to use Nino over Serra and that the latter shouldn't be used because Pent's better than her when he joins. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

The point Life was trying to make with all the earlygame characters is that they all have a lower or equal base level compared to Nino, so they will contribute just as much or more to the exp rank over the course of the game. When people say "Nino is great for the exp rank" it's kind of an overstatement, as she contributes just the same as anyone else. And Nino has issues getting these kills (since she needs to be babied to get them) whilst the earlygame characters have no such trouble for a long portion of the game.

Oh no, I get the point Life (Kefka) was making.

I'm trying to make the counterpoint that Nino will get more experience per kill than pretty much any other unit you're going to be fielding AT THAT POINT OF THE GAME, with bases/growths that allow her to have the combat of a unit a few levels higher (she's more like many 8/-- units at 5/--, and like 17/-- or 18/-- units at 13/--). Having her kill unpromotes early on and promotes at mid-first tier, you're realistically going to look at an extra 800-1k experience from training versus feeding the experience to a 20/1 unit (or around that level), which, at the very worst, allows you to shave your turn count off a S rank EHM run by forcing you to farm the FFO arena less (and I doubt having Nino snipe kills when she's free deployment in NoF is going to cost that many turns).

I'm not saying Nino will make or break your experience rank (although it can if you don't use FFO arena that much in S rank EHM and it comes down to the wire), but you're certainly rewarded in a S rank game for training her. You may slightly lose in combat rank, but that rank is way too easy in FE7 that any effects from that usually matter anyways.

It's not hard for Nino to get to the level (statistically, not like actual level) of Erk relatively quickly, and with better growths, I'm just going to field her instead of him. I mean, I can't argue that Pent is pretty awesome, especially for a prepromote, but Nino's "Est" status means she can beat him in combat by Final and be close to him once she promotes. I'd sooner drop Serra/Prissy/Erk for Pent than Nino, if I were going to do it.

[dondon151]

Technically, a speed capped assassin can reliably double Uhai (27 AS) in all but HHM, and possibly in HHM, since 27 speed is only the average and HHM bonuses do fluctuate, IIRC. But I'm splitting hairs here. However, even in the case of Uhai, Nino can get to the point in a reasonable HM S rank run (20/7) where Uhai will not double her, while Pent will always be doubled.

Assassins cap spd at 30.

Ursula has 18 AS with her tome, so Nino can double her by 20/4, while Pent has to be 20/18.

Utterly pointless because Ursula has 27 res. Nino will not even be able to damage her with Elfire.

Jerme has 22 AS with his Lightbrand, so Nino can double him by 20/11 (a bit in the high range, but possible if she walks into the level @ 20/10), while Pent will never double and gets doubled unless 20/8 on average (easy enough to do).

It's a Runesword, and he still has 20 AS, 17 res. At 20/8, Nino does 6 x2 HP damage with Fire.

Darin, probably the biggie here and with 16 AS, is doubled by a 20/-- Nino (no joke), while Pent has to be 20/13 (with enough physic/warp use, he could reach it).

Nope, once again, you are dead wrong, because there is no tome that unpromoted Nino can wield that will not cause her to lose AS.

Lloyd, with 29 AS, will double Nino until 20/9 and always double Pent. So Nino MAY not be doubled depending on the run, but Pent is basically screwed.

Linus, with 20 AS, is doubled by a 20/7 Nino but never by Pent.

Once again, this is assuming that Nino is using Fire against 23 and 20 res, respectively. At 20/8, she does 1 HP damage and 4 x2 HP damage, respectively.

Kenneth, with 13 AS, is doubled by a 15/-- Nino and a base Pent.

Kenneth has 30 res.

Brendan, with 18 AS, is the same as Ursula; Nino doubles by 20/4, Pent has to be 20/18.

Nino doubles with Fire against 69 HP, 18 res. This is 4 x2 HP damage and she requires 9 rounds of combat to KO.

So, looking at a 20/7 Nino and a 20/11 Pent by Final (that's 20/7 Nino from my EHM S rank run and a 20/11 Pent from General_Horace's HHM S rank run, who basically used a full prepromote team after he reached his experience rank):

Nino doubles Ursula, Darin, Linus, Kenneth, and Brendan, and is only doubled by Lloyd. She loses doubling Linus on average on Thunder tome, but that's it.

Pent doubles Kenneth, and is doubled by Jerme and Lloyd.

No. Stop. This analysis is completely wrong. All we've learned from your misinformed blathering is that Nino and Pent perform terribly combat-wise against final chapter bosses. But there is something that Pent does that Nino can't do: he can warp Athos into a room and watch him wreck things. Then he can rescue Athos across from half of the map and watch him wreck things again.

It was honestly quite hilarious watching you try to argue that Nino is better than Pent in final while you inadvertently admitted that Nino practically cannot damage any of the bosses. It's like watching Sarah Palin make a speech.

Edited November 18, 2011 by dondon151

[Lord Raven]

base(d) pent kills things from the moment he joins till the chapter before the final chapter. nino kills things...

...

... never

[Life]

I mean, you've done EHM (and maybe HHM?) S rank, you know what I mean when you really have to spread experience amongst characters. A couple months ago, when I was getting back into FE7 S ranking, I was looking at your old logs for reference, and I know you were getting almost everybody to 10/--, closer to 15/--, trying to desparately make the EHM 5* XP rank (which I technically never found out if you did since you never posted the final results). Nino essentially gains the experience of a level 5, with the base stats closer to a level 8, and she gains roughly 1.3 levels worth of stats per level (as compared to like Erk or Lucius or...).

I know Nino on EHM S rank wasn't OHKO'd by most non-promoted units as early as 8/--, and her avoid gets pretty high pretty fast. During CoD (assuming she got to 13/-- in NoF, which isn't hard), she essentially gains noticeably more experience while being on par combat-wise with your 19/-- to 20/1 units after gaining a couple levels on the knights (again, not very hard...high avoid, mediocre hit, not OHKO'd even with a silver lance IIRC). And when the generals leak out? Ninis' Grace (1 or 2 uses, max) + forest tile does the trick.

General Horace explained my point perfectly. Nino just seems like she's great for the Exp rank because her getting to about 16/0 in a couple of chapters is more pronounced than Raven doing the same thing over 3x as many chapters. But both affect the Exp rank equally since both start at level 5. The difference is that Raven has been useful all throughout the game so by the time Nino appears at 5/0, Raven's at 20/6 and murdering everything in his path on top of doing the same job as Nino for the Exp rank.

Ninis' Grace was the only thing that let Nino tank promoted units prior to her hitting 17/0. Sure, she can dodge Silver Sword Heroes while on trees... but her Avo wasn't great (they had on the lower side of 50 Hit) and a hit basically brought her down to "sneeze on her and she dies" mode.

And I failed Exp, in case you wanted to know. I was trying to squeeze it out of my units without promoting many when I should have bit a bullet in Funds and just promoted another 2 more units (can't remember if I promoted Prissy in that run).

EDIT: In case anyone is wondering why KoT is claiming that Nino can go from 5/0 to 20/2 by the end of CoD... it's because I did it back in my EHM run. 13/0 by the end of Night of Farewells but I did also mention that I putzed around a lot in that chapter simply for the Exp.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Kefka

[Elieson]

Has been thoroughly entertained.

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

Assassins cap spd at 30.

Uhai has 25 SPD (or 26, I can't remember) on everything but HHM. Assassins double him on those modes, which was what I was referring to. As for his 27 SPD on HHM, all numbers are averages and IIRC there's a chance Uhai can have 26 SPD depending on HHM bonuses, which means a capped assassin will double. Again, this is a silly point, hence the "splitting hairs" comment. 99.9% of the time he won't be doubled. Looking back, it was probably a dick comment to bring up.

Utterly pointless because Ursula has 27 res. Nino will not even be able to damage her with Elfire.

Noted.

It's a Runesword, and he still has 20 AS, 17 res. At 20/8, Nino does 6 x2 HP damage with Fire.

Crap, mixed the names up. Forgive me. I was looking more at WT and thus effective AS rather than anything else.

Nope, once again, you are dead wrong, because there is no tome that unpromoted Nino can wield that will not cause her to lose AS.

Fine, I forgot the 1 AS loss from fire pre-promotion. Make it 20/1 then...either way, it's not like she's not going to hit it if you use her.

Once again, this is assuming that Nino is using Fire against 23 and 20 res, respectively. At 20/8, she does 1 HP damage and 4 x2 HP damage, respectively.

Fine, change it to thunder and add roughly 2-3 levels to each of those values.

Kenneth has 30 res.

Again, noted. I only did a pure AS analysis, I was too lazy to check RES.

Nino doubles with Fire against 69 HP, 18 res. This is 4 x2 HP damage and she requires 9 rounds of combat to KO.

At 20/7, I believe she'll double him with thunder too, for 9x2 damage. I merely listed the bare minimum that she'd double at.

No. Stop. This analysis is completely wrong. All we've learned from your misinformed blathering is that Nino and Pent perform terribly combat-wise against final chapter bosses. But there is something that Pent does that Nino can't do: he can warp Athos into a room and watch him wreck things. Then he can rescue Athos across from half of the map and watch him wreck things again.

It was honestly quite hilarious watching you try to argue that Nino is better than Pent in final while you inadvertently admitted that Nino practically cannot damage any of the bosses. It's like watching Sarah Palin make a speech.

Alright, let's be completely honest here. Everything in the last level falls flat in the face of Athos + Body Ring + Luna; IS, while beefing the crap out of the morphs to provide a challenge, forgot that Luna existed. We could use this logic to argue here that Nils/Priscilla/Serra could be god tier units in this chapter (basically any combination that allows you to rescue + second action + warp Athos). Pent may be able to warp/rescue (as can your healers), but Nino does double Darin (which Pent usually will not), which at least makes her a great candidate to clear that room so Athos doesn't have to. And she's better at chipping, assuming it ever applies.

With that being said, I concede.

Edited November 18, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[General Horace]

EDIT: In case anyone is wondering why KoT is claiming that Nino can go from 5/0 to 20/2 by the end of CoD... it's because I did it back in my EHM run. 13/0 by the end of Night of Farewells but I did also mention that I putzed around a lot in that chapter simply for the Exp.

In EHM, I would actually say 13/0 is a reasonable number, I got her to 17.83, so 20/2 isn't outrageous. HHM, she doesn't stand a chance though, since she only has 28x to get exp, and she's OHKO'd by everything, so she won't get as much. IIRC I had her coming out at 13/0 there with the main intent being feeding her and Bartre kills.

And comparing Nino to Pent in final is pretty useless, since they both can't kill anything, so Pent autowins because staff rank (although he autowins anyhow).

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

In EHM, I would actually say 13/0 is a reasonable number, I got her to 17.83, so 20/2 isn't outrageous. HHM, she doesn't stand a chance though, since she only has 28x to get exp, and she's OHKO'd by everything, so she won't get as much. IIRC I had her coming out at 13/0 there with the main intent being feeding her and Bartre kills.

And comparing Nino to Pent in final is pretty useless, since they both can't kill anything, so Pent autowins because staff rank (although he autowins anyhow).

I wouldn't say I putzed around NoF on my S rank EHM.

@ Elieson: I'm too stubborn for my own good, I know. How in the world do these silly arguments start up, anyways?

Edited November 18, 2011 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

KoT you remind me of myself, your a pretty good FE player but your opinions are very different from several professionals and sometimes end up with one sided debates that are normally not in your/our favor.

the only differences is that i stopped trying to pretend like i know it all when i talk to a person that does know it all

[Elieson]

Beats me. My true opinion? I still think Geitz.

[Elieson]

Beats me. My true opinion? I still think Geitz.

[Elieson]

Beats me. My true opinion? I still think Geitz.