Anouleth Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Granted, outside of the lords, Athos and Canas, pretty much the whole cast is irrelevant against the dragon, but Lyn just can't hold a candle to the other four in terms of damaging it... Eliwood does slightly less damage than Hector, only he can't double. So really, Lyn's doubling and dealing 10x2 damage with a significant chance to crit sounds better than Eliwood hitting once for 23 damage, especially when you consider that Lyn gets more mileage out of Filla's Might. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Eliwood does slightly less damage than Hector, only he can't double. So really, Lyn's doubling and dealing 10x2 damage with a significant chance to crit sounds better than Eliwood hitting once for 23 damage, especially when you consider that Lyn gets more mileage out of Filla's Might. Still, I see that as taking a good deal of stuff just to keep her from being, to be blunt, worthless against the dragon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Just give the Sol Katti 10-15 more crit make it weigh 10 lbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Just give the Sol Katti 10-15 more crit make it weigh 10 lbs I think more str would do more for it than extra crit, seeing that it has a paltry 12 mt, and Sonic says that's NO GOOD. Edited December 7, 2011 by Metal King Slime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I think more str would do more for it than extra crit, seeing that it has a paltry 12 mt, and Sonic says that's NO GOOD. Not necessarily 14+5= 19 crit when Lyn has max skl and S swords Add the 25 she gets from the Sol Katti she has 44 crit Add the 15 she gets from the Florina Support thats 59 crit If we were to add a theoretical 15 crit to the Sol Katti thats 74 crit now factoring in the Dragon's Luck that is 50 crit on the Dragon That isnt that bad imo considering you can get her like +10 atk from filla's might Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Not necessarily 14+5= 19 crit when Lyn has max skl and S swords Add the 25 she gets from the Sol Katti she has 44 crit Add the 15 she gets from the Florina Support thats 59 crit If we were to add a theoretical 15 crit to the Sol Katti thats 74 crit now factoring in the Dragon's Luck that is 50 crit on the Dragon That isnt that bad imo considering you can get her like +10 atk from filla's might Considering the paltry 12 mt it has, I can't help but consider it, and, by extension, Lyn, useless against the dragon, because I'm not exactly fond of having to pray for critical hit luck just to get anything that ain't scratch damage against the thing. And that's aside from the fact that extra crit is needless overkill. Edited December 7, 2011 by Metal King Slime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I personally think Lyn is fine. If her HHM self joined at a higher level (maybe level 6 equivalent), she wouldn't have horrid problems. I can envision uses for Lyn even in LTC playstyles. But Eliwood, on the other hand, needs more treatment than just a lazy +1 to all of his bases and subtle growth changes. He'd still be bad - it doesn't solve any of his problems. Mount him without changing any of his bases or growths. Or give him +4/+4 to his HP/str bases. Or give him +4 HP and give the Rapier 10 MT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anouleth Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Still, I see that as taking a good deal of stuff just to keep her from being, to be blunt, worthless against the dragon. Yeah, it's such a hassle to build the single fastest support in the game with a unit that's pretty good! In addition, the Florina/Lyn support helps them elsewhere as well by buffering their offense. It doesn't "just" help them against the dragon, and neither does the LM Drop. It's not like RFoF builds her entire team around killing the Fire Dragon. And Lyn ends up a little bit better than "non-worthless". She's clearly better than Canas and Eliwood, for a start, even if she's not quite as good as Hector and Athos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadow Mir Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Yeah, it's such a hassle to build the single fastest support in the game with a unit that's pretty good! In addition, the Florina/Lyn support helps them elsewhere as well by buffering their offense. It doesn't "just" help them against the dragon, and neither does the LM Drop. It's not like RFoF builds her entire team around killing the Fire Dragon. And Lyn ends up a little bit better than "non-worthless". She's clearly better than Canas and Eliwood, for a start, even if she's not quite as good as Hector and Athos. Well, Lyn/Florina is reasonable, but I think Red Fox went a little far with her other propositions... And that's ignoring the fact that I'm *very* unforgiving on subpar weapons. Edited December 7, 2011 by Metal King Slime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Florete Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Oh, I forgot the S rank crit bonus in my earlier calculations. So she should actually have 35% displayed crit if I didn't miss anything else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whase Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Lyn: really, she's fine up to the dragon. giving the sol katti some less WT and either some more MT or effectiveness would solve her dragon problems. Eliwood: overall very average. his bases are good enough, but his growths should be higher. 5% to everything would be great. lords really should be more usable is FE games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I thought Eli's growths aren't terrible, but his bases are kinda sorta really crap. :/ Durandal's issues are worse than Mani-Katti's, anyway, as Eliwood can potentially get doubled by the dragon if his speed gets screwed by a little, since he needs to be 20/10 just to not get doubled on average. At least Lyn's personal speed is high enough to take the -7AS from Sol Katti and still do okay. He can't do shit in Hector Hard Mode without Rapier, and even Rapier can't do shit sometimes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titamon Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Lyn: really, she's fine up to the dragon. giving the sol katti some less WT and either some more MT or effectiveness would solve her dragon problems. Eliwood: overall very average. his bases are good enough, but his growths should be higher. 5% to everything would be great. lords really should be more usable is FE games but +5% to Eliwood's growths only adds about +1 to his averages, and Eliwood's biggest issue is his start Edited December 7, 2011 by Mage Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) anyone think that giving Lyn a 15% critical hit to her Lord or Blade Lord class would help her out? also it seems like Eliwood needs a bigger buff, from what i gathered an plus 1 to movement, plus 1 to every base stat, as well as increasing his growths by...10 or 15% would help him? EDIT: since noone has read this yet, i suppose an CON boost would help Eliwood out, like by 1 or 2? also noted on the weapon attributes, gonna fix the weight issues. Edited December 7, 2011 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) but +5% to Eliwood's growths only adds about +1 to his averages, and Eliwood's biggest issue is his start ...and the fact that he never really gets anywhere even after he gets past his start, and the fact that he STILL has con problems after promotion, and the fact that he can't carry Hector... A 5% increase means, on average, an extra .05 per stat, per level. Compounded over 40 levels (I'm probably fucking up some math here but give me some slack), that makes for +2 in every stat. This does nothing to get him out of his shitty bases, but it's better than nothing. I'd personally rather give Eliwood +4 HP and +10 might to the Rapier along with the 5% growth boost all around. I'd also give him +1 move and +2 con, but that's just me. Edited December 7, 2011 by Kam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Extra growths still do almost nothing, though. This is speaking from... personal experience. Haha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CT075 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 well we also need to keep in mind that the average player will not give a shit about taking more than 10 turns on most maps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Refa Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) I thought it was obvious what Eliwood needed to get buffed. Lances as his primary weapon. Yes yes, the Japanese subtitle would need to be changed to Fire Emblem Frost Lance or something significantly less titely, but gameplay wise it makes perfect sense. Eliwood's stats seem more like a lance user than a traditional myrmidon/mercenary (well, this is subjective, but you can't deny that it really help him out), and with a little more CON, it'd be perfect. Also 1-2 range. Although 6 move would be nice. lords really should be more usable is FE games Most of them are. There's what, Eliwood? Roy is OK, Marth is good, Lyn isn't really a main lord just she's fine too, everyone else is amazing (well...who are the Lords in FE10? I know nothing about that game). Edited December 7, 2011 by Refa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Micaiah isn't terrible and Ike's pretty good. Now, Sigurd, THAT is amazing lord. Roy is utter shit, IMO. His only saving grace is that OP'd Sword of Seals, but it doesn't make up for 20+chapters of utter fail. Edited December 7, 2011 by Luminescent Blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zahlman Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Durandal's issues are worse than Mani-Katti's, anyway, as Eliwood can potentially get doubled by the dragon if his speed gets screwed by a little, since he needs to be 20/10 just to not get doubled on average. FWIW in the EHM draft I just did, Eliwood ended up as 13/4. Horace's was 15/4, and delivered the final blow to the dragon (and, FWIW, would have just barely failed to survive a counter even if not doubled). In HHM it's probably harder for him to get exp (whereas Hector could hardly avoid making 20/X if he wanted to). @dondon lol, PEMN-tastic. Speaking of which, I find that Lyn is awesome for dealing with Zoldam (high chance to OHKO with crit + low chance to get crit on EP, and even Marcus won't survive a crit without a few HP procs anyway) and Uhai (she can actually hit that annoying bugger, plus effective weapon) and maybe Cameron (although he's kind of a pushover anyway), and then pretty much fades into obscurity again until VoD, where in HNM/HHM she actually has enemy phase with a bow at one point if you put her in the corridor just below the north bridge. Of course, for LTC she has to be ferried to Zoldam and Uhai, which is kind of a burden on Marcus... Edited December 7, 2011 by zahlman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 (edited) Yeah, for a finisher, Eliwood can do that, but if you want him to do anything but finish, then he'll need 19 speed before Durandal deductions, which is 20/10 average. I think I just promoted him at 10/- in HHM because he sucked so bad. Lyn at least had LHM to her name, which since I didn't Sainskip she was of a respectable level and did well. Hector's Hector. Eliwood... well... Edited December 7, 2011 by Luminescent Blade Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 FWIW in the EHM draft I just did, Eliwood ended up as 13/4. Horace's was 15/4, and delivered the final blow to the dragon (and, FWIW, would have just barely failed to survive a counter even if not doubled). In HHM it's probably harder for him to get exp (whereas Hector could hardly avoid making 20/X if he wanted to). who the hell is Horace? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thor Odinson Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 General_Horace, probably one of the best draft players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 General_Horace, probably one of the best draft players. stupid me, i thought it was a mispelt character name. either way, so not changing Eliwood Growths, but his base stats including Con and Movement, would make him balanced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chococoke Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 My Eliwood from my EHM draft run ended up as complete crap, more or less, and could really only take out axe users reliably. This was with him chugging stat boosters like it was his job, too. As far as I know, his stats were slightly above average, too. His bases and growths are just too crappy to use. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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