Rate the Unit, Day 34: Louise

[whase]

she's not too bad, it's just...every other sniper is better than her. and every other class is better than snipers.

next to that, I'm not giving her extra points for hotness, like most people do.

4/10

[Lord Raven]

10/4 is a bit low unless you're talking pure efficiency. Obviously which level you assume depends on what perspective you grade the units on; my assumption of level for your average unit in an S-rank run is around 20/1 by Vaida's chapter, or very close to that (since that tends to be AROUND what units hit here). S-rank isn't casual, but rather focuses on different criteria while being more lenient on turn counts.

so we have 20/1 by Vaida's chapter

except we don't because every single S-rank run you'll see on this board doesnt have any of Wil/Rebecca at 20/1. in which case, Louise is superfluous for her combat and merely good for her EXP rank if you have a shitload of units at 20/1 at that point (which is lol because why would you waste 20K to promote them) -_- They slow you down pretty greatly.

When I compare a prepromote to growth units, I assume that such growth units have been trained to a REASONABLE level by that point of the game and then compare the prepromo's bases to the average stats of that growth unit; this doesn't take into account whether you WANT to raise the growth unit personally. I did it with Isadora by comparing to Kent or Sainadin and with Geitz by comparing to Bartre (or Wil, since Geitz really does a great job at replacing even a trained Wil and doing it better).

10/4 is fairly reasonable (or actually an over estimation). of course 20/4 rath/wil/rebecca beat louise, but thats not the point. rath/wil/rebecca dont come at 10/4, and the only one of those units reasonable getting the levels and an orion's bolt is rath, because he only needs 1 level to promote and 3 more to hit 10/4. in which case, he's not 10/4 but he's still losing to Louise even after a couple of levels in defense, when both have Silver bows to kill things.

Now we go into wil/rebecca, who start out shit and remain pretty shit because they're 6 move and bow locked. and thats assumign you promote them, otherwise they have 5 move and bow lock. 6 base spd doesn't helpt heir case very much, and Wil's case is especially hurt by the fact that 4/0 rebecca way surpasses base Wil (who is level 4 himself). and 4/0 rebecca is shit (7.8 AS and 5.2 Str + an Iron Bow = lol) and pretty tough to obtain in standard efficiency or S-rank where you're trying to beat these levels early for a more relaxed tactics rank later on. or if you're trying to milk a lot of EXP, you have a bunch of level 1 shit enemies that you barely gain much EXP from. I don't see where Rebecca's getting use, and I don't see where you have the slots to spare one to wil early on. especially because a 15/1 Wil is going to have +2 levels on 10/4 Wil, which is 12.5 Str with 12.4 AS on average. and he's still losing heavily to Louise in the defense department. 20/1 has far worse resistance than Louise at base, but he's impractical as fuck.

and of course rebecca/rath are always failing in comparison to louse in the defenses, and 20/1 is still irrational for that point in time.

If we assume efficiency or a untrained growth unit, then obviously all prepromotes look way better in comparison.

no shit

P.S.: I just want to clarify my rating. I compare Louise to your trained units and say she's slightly worse than them stat-wise IF you trained one of them. But then I say that you don't have to go through the painful process to train her AND she comes with A ranking. I'm not saying that she's not a good prepromo.

but she's never slightly worse stat wise because the only way to get wil/rebecca there is through excessive preferential treatment (Stuff that's actually a bit large even for S rank) and Rath only has like 3-4 chapters or something to get there. there is no such thing as a wil/rebecca there in any sort of playthrough worth any sort of merit. Edited January 23, 2012 by Mercenary Raven

[Baldrick]

Louise is the good part of snipers without the bad. Her mere existence makes an excellent

unit better. Prepromoted means she's economical. Her base stats, though not spectacular, are good enough for FE7. She is also ridiculously hot.

Bow-locked is irrevelant because Pent protects her from melee attackers.

9 plus 1 for looks

10/10

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

so we have 20/1 by Vaida's chapter

except we don't because every single S-rank run you'll see on this board doesnt have any of Wil/Rebecca at 20/1. in which case, Louise is superfluous for her combat and merely good for her EXP rank if you have a shitload of units at 20/1 at that point (which is lol because why would you waste 20K to promote them) -_- They slow you down pretty greatly.

I basically say that Wil/Rebecca, if they're close to the average level of your more used units in most S-rank logs, will be better statistically. I then say, "But how likely is it that Wil/Rebecca will be used in place of Louise?", which I basically say is rather unlikely, and so her prepromote "pick up and go" status is more highly valued. I think you're just getting caught up in the first step and missing the fact I'm doing the second step as well before rating her. I probably could have been more clear with my logic here (mostly since I casually mention her ease of use in the last sentence, simply since it's an obvious given and requires no logic/persuasion to conclude).

Seriously, do we even disagree on anything here (other than the degree of archer suckitude before promotion)? We even end up giving her the same rating.

10/4 is fairly reasonable (or actually an over estimation). of course 20/4 rath/wil/rebecca beat louise, but thats not the point. rath/wil/rebecca dont come at 10/4, and the only one of those units reasonable getting the levels and an orion's bolt is rath, because he only needs 1 level to promote and 3 more to hit 10/4. in which case, he's not 10/4 but he's still losing to Louise even after a couple of levels in defense, when both have Silver bows to kill things.

I don't assume growth units aren't used at the beginning. Again:

Step 1: Assume growth unit is trained; compare growth unit to prepromote.

Step 2: How likely is it growth unit will be trained? If Step 1 is in favor (esp. notably) of growth unit, does possible potential outweigh prepromote conveniences?

Do you find any problem with this method? I would always like to refine it as much as possible.

no shit

I just wanted to point out that I was NOT assuming efficiency in that 20/1. As long as we're clear.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[Lord Raven]

I dont get why i was arguing with you considering you made a point about a situation that never occurs in a playthrough that holds any degree of validity and you change your stance not long into said argument. -_-;

[Kngt_Of_Titania]

I dont get why i was arguing with you considering you made a point about a situation that never occurs in a playthrough that holds any degree of validity and you change your stance not long into said argument. -_-;

Come on. I never changed my position; you just misunderstood it. In my rating, I picked what I thought was a reasonable level for a trained unit at that time of the game, applied it to the archers, and compared stats. Then I went on to say Louise had A support and easy access, which made up for that. It's all RIGHT THERE, in my first post (the actual rating), which was last edited several hours ago.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Kngt_Of_Titania

[arvilino]

Her biggest comparison would be she's the the FE7 Innes or Klein who came quite a bit later. She's a nice Bow User, 12 strength is a little iffy but auto Silver Bows and good base speed makes that workable, plus the difficulty in raising the other bow users makes her a decent choice if you want to field a Bow user. A support with Pent also helps a little bit.

5/10

+2 for hotness

[Aran613]

Stuck with bows, however in a game where the other two archers aren't the greatest. Could be useful if you didn't train an archer, and has a nice A support with Pent upon entrance.

5/10

[Ether]

Ah, Louise. A support with Pent, monopoly on bows, with access to every single one aside from the Reinfleche off the bat, usable out of the box.

Louise gets a 7/10 from me.

[Fei Mao]

7/10

[OrangeCrush980]

Come on, I thought you guys hated bow users. Of course she's better than Wil and Rebecca, but they're shit. And its not like there's a shortage of prepromotes that are actually good. 12 str + bow-locked does not deserve a 7/10 or even a 5/10 really.

[Wen Yang]

She has several redeeming Factors:

1. HHM is choke-full of fliers (and on some chapters, Mages). She ORKOs both with ease. 12 Str is a non-issue when you start with A-bows and CARRY ONE FROM THE START.

2. As a bonus against mages, she has WTF Res in comparison to other bow-users.

3. She gives one of the best units in the game a kickass durability boost by EXISTING.

4. She also gets said boost.

5. She's smokin' HOT.

[Raven]

Far too generous. I still stand by the 20% I gave earlier.

[eclipse]

And I'm standing by my 5.5, because her existing on a map means that her husband is all the better. Unlike most of you, I don't think she's hot. Rath's the best-looking bow dude.

[Balcerzak]

Come on, I thought you guys hated bow users. Of course she's better than Wil and Rebecca, but they're shit. And its not like there's a shortage of prepromotes that are actually good. 12 str + bow-locked does not deserve a 7/10 or even a 5/10 really.

I don't hate bow users. I routinely defend Dorothy, after all, and maintain that giving them enemy phase exposure is not as difficult as it would initially seem. Also, even in games with nerfed effective weaponry (e.g. FE9, NA FE7) they are still useful for putting huge dents in wyverns, and blasting pegs. Occasional longbow use is also worthwhile, although to be fair, Geitz is a much better longbowman than Louise due to his strength.

[Junkhead]

I think she is beautiful, not hot.

[Loki Laufeyson]

To be fair I am VERY pissed at Eliwood for sucking so badly in my last run that I was literally unable to get him to level 15 to get Geitz no matter how much I tried slowing down for him. And then I'm stuck hoping Wallace doesn't off himself accidentally.

I understand. My last run, Eliwood was having serious RNG problems. But since Eliwood is around much longer and has no bow lock, yeah. ;) <3

If i want a bow user, i use Rath. Its like, my thing. So Louise doesnt get a lot of use outside her joining chapter.

[Titamon]

All these high ratings surprise me

That being said, i'm going to give her a 5/10, I really, really like using her, and she has some nice niche chapters like Cog, but she's still bowlocked.

I read that as "nice nipples"

[Thor Odinson]

I understand. My last run, Eliwood was having serious RNG problems. But since Eliwood is around much longer and has no bow lock, yeah. ;) <3

Eliwood sucks at bringing anything to the team in general, though. He struggles to double, and doesn't have enough strength to back up swordlock either. If he wasn't a lord and thus one of the requirements for Geitz and promoting him makes him running away from flying things of death easier, I wouldn't even bother with him. Raven or Guy or Lyn does a much better job at swordlock before promotion (or even after promotion in Guy's case) since they can at least double, and swords suck nearly as much as bows in FE7 since they're facing constant WTD. He takes away precious deployment slots too just so he can get trained, whereas Louise can have at least a few chapters where she wouldn't drag anyone down (plus her join chapter is full of fliers which she can ORKO, and like Clipsey said, help out on Cog of Destiny) and doesn't need to be fed exp through taking set up kills (because with Eliwood's stats, he ain't onerounding anything any time soon) or just drag down the team significantly unless he gets seriously blessed. I just feel that Louise bring more to the team in her short existence than Eliwood ever will.

Edit: Just checked averages: My Eliwood wasn't even that screwed beyond 2 points of strength. Even an average Eliwood can't do much. He literally requires to be very blessed to actually contribute positively other than maybe stab a bandit once in a while (and takes way too long to kill one) and being a ferrybot which happens at the earliest, Louise's join chapter.

Edited January 23, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Shadow Mir]

Man, I'm actually getting rather curious how Louise does against promoted enemies in CoD. Too bad we don't have any stats for that chapter...

[Balcerzak]

Man, I'm actually getting rather curious how Louise does against promoted enemies in CoD. Too bad we don't have any stats for that chapter...

gallery of screenshots

She will only be doubled by level 14 Valks, of which there are only 2 and one only has staves in her inventory.

She has the potential to get OHKO by max Magic Luna Druids, probably doesn't want to fight them.

Lv 8 Valks, depending on equipment, look to generally sport 23-25 attack. Against 15 base RES (Pent support), that would 3-4 HKO, so getting swarmed by Valks isn't ideal. But then again, for whom is it really?

She can take a shot from both a Purge Bishop and the Bolting Sage and still live to tell the tale, albeit something like 1-3 HP to her name at that point.

She would probably benefit from Barrier/Pure Water, just like everyone else, to be honest. But when you consider some people need a pure water to hit her base magic durability...

Edited January 23, 2012 by Balcerzak

[-Cynthia-]

Actually Louise isn't too bad against the Luna Druids...with a Longbow. I've had her ORKO them before, one of the safer ways to deal with them.

[Shadow Mir]

gallery of screenshots

She will only be doubled by level 14 Valks, of which there are only 2 and one only has staves in her inventory.

She has the potential to get OHKO by max Magic Luna Druids, probably doesn't want to fight them.

Lv 8 Valks, depending on equipment, look to generally sport 23-25 attack. Against 15 base RES (Pent support), that would 3-4 HKO, so getting swarmed by Valks isn't ideal. But then again, for whom is it really?

She can take a shot from both a Purge Bishop and the Bolting Sage and still live to tell the tale, albeit something like 1-3 HP to her name at that point.

She would probably benefit from Barrier/Pure Water, just like everyone else, to be honest. But when you consider some people need a pure water to hit her base magic durability...

It's just as I figured... With Pent support and Pure Water, only Luna Druids really scare her. Then again, Luna Druids scare everyone.

Edited January 24, 2012 by Metal King Slime

[Loki Laufeyson]

To be fair, Lumi, i think i rated Eliwood only slightly above Louise. ;) Like half a point or some junk.

[Thor Odinson]

And I gave Eliwood a 4.7 so it's not like I rated Louise that much higher anyway.