Banzai's Archetypes

[Anouleth]

Dorcas and Natalie pretty obviously love each other except when he's a bad guy. He goes through pretty big lengths to ensure her welfare, and from what little we see of Natalie, she's constantly worrying about his welfare as well. I'm pretty sure they love each other.

You say that, but...

[CT075]

Zealot physically cannot live with Juno, because it's somewhat difficult to settle down, raise a family and be a sword-for-hire simultaneously, don't you think? It's not a question of not living with her because he doesn't really care about her, it's a question of how he can physically maintain their livelihood and still be the "caring, ever-present husband".

[General Banzai]

I've hinted at why Zealot married Juno before, but I guess I'll say it again.

Thany: Zealot!

Zealot: ...You won't let me go, will you?

Thany: But I'm family to you. I want to know about my relatives...

Zealot: Hm... All right, I suppose. ...We first met in battle in Etruria. Yuno's pegasus squad was hired by our enemy side.

Thany: Whoa...

Zealot: I attempted to settle things peacefully through discussion. Yuno was a beautiful and caring woman, so things went well. And then, things just progressed after that.

Thany: What were your proposal words?

Zealot: Y-You want me to tell you that much?

Thany: Yes. I'm your family...aren't I?

Zealot: Er...

Thany: Did you propose first? Or was it Yuno?

Zealot: Well...

As I pointed out earlier, Zealot and Juno met on the battlefield--their entire relationship is based around an act of diplomacy, with Zealot and Juno, tellingly, on two different sides. I've stated before that Zealot (and the Ogma archetype as a whole) is able to form attachments in a battlefield setting with their comrades-in-arms. They find fraternity with their fellow mercenaries, and their trust and relationships grow as they fight together. Hence, Zealot was once able to love Juno--on the battlefield.

But Juno then removes herself from the battlefield, while Zealot cannot. Hence Zealot's hesitation, his detachment from Juno. Even while she fights, the child anchors her into a realm of domesticity. Zealot can no longer see her in the battlefield setting although she returns to it to fight beside him. He tells her to return to their child. She's her mother, after all. Mother of course being the emblem of domesticity. For Zealot, Juno no longer exists as an entity on the battlefield, and thus he has grown detached from her.

It's not that he never loved her. It's not that he's gay. It's that for Zealot, life begins and ends on the battlefield. He cannot settle down, he cannot become domesticated. Battle calls to him, as he tells Noah--he will not die peacefully, in bed. People have pointed out the "Haha, that's Juno" line in the Tate support. Let's look at that again:

Thito: General Zealot, I'm sure you know already, but my mission has been accomplished. Still, I wish to remain in this army.

Zealot: All right. You know, fate can work in strange ways. We were hired by the Lycia Alliance Army, and you were hired by the Etrurian Army... I never would have thought that we would meet.

Thito: Yes. Although Etruria didn't seem to view us very highly, General Klein was caring.

Zealot: I see... Yuno was pretty worried about you and Thany. Knowing you, I would think you'd be all right. But you know Yuno, she's a worrier.

Thito: Yes, I understand. Our sister was often too soft on Thany and me. The day we left was a hectic one indeed. Yuno was constantly fretting over us, worrying about our meals, our clothes...

Zealot: Haha, that's Yuno.

What does Zealot identify Juno with? What is the prompter that makes him say his now-infamous "Haha, that's Juno" line? Why, it's an evocation of the domestic. Juno worrying over meals, clothes--domestic, motherly attributes. That is how he sees her. Look at the B support, this theme goes even further:

Zealot: I was wondering... Yuno's...your parents... What were they like?

Thito: Haven't you heard from Yuno?

Zealot: No. All I know is that they were soldiers.

Thito: Yes, our mother was a Pegasus Knight. Our parents were killed together on the same battlefield when we were still young.

Zealot: ......

Thito: We had no other relatives to depend on... Yuno became our mother, when she was only a teenager...

Zealot: I see.

Thito: While an ordinary girl of her age would be concerning herself with romance, Yuno had to be our mother. But she never complained... She always looked after us with a smile on her face. That's why... That's why I always wanted Yuno to find happiness.

Yes, he asks about Juno's parents. But note that he does so with the knowledge that they were soldiers. Again, what interests Zealot is not the domestic but the battlefield. When he learns of Juno's parents's death on the battlefield, he is wordless. People have said "How sweet, Zealot asks about Juno's parents, that means he cares" but again we must think of the full circumstances around his question. Remember, he married Juno the soldier, not Juno the mother. What he asks Tate here is about a soldierly past, a past on the battlefield. "All I know is that they were soldiers" indicates that what he has spoken to Juno before about her parents has SOLELY involved them being soldiers. He knows nothing else about them. And that's entirely my point--soldiers and battle is all Zealot can know.

Summary: Zealot is NOT gay, Zealot ONCE loved Juno, but only in the context of the battlefield; now that she has become Mother-Juno rather than Soldier-Juno he has grown detached from her. Zealot's character prevents him from settling down, prevents him from living a life of peace. The battlefield calls to him, and for him must be his end.

[deranger]

So Zealot has a fetish for Women in arms?

And you're aware the battlefield calls to him because without it, he, Yuno, and their baby starve right?

Edited March 5, 2012 by deranger

[Swordsalmon]

You say that, but...

That's why I said "except when he's a bad guy". ;)

Also, Ilians have no way to make money aside from mercenary work. It's not like Zealot can put down his sword and become a Wal-Mart manager any time he wants.

[Anouleth]

As I pointed out earlier, Zealot and Juno met on the battlefield--their entire relationship is based around an act of diplomacy, with Zealot and Juno, tellingly, on two different sides. I've stated before that Zealot (and the Ogma archetype as a whole) is able to form attachments in a battlefield setting with their comrades-in-arms. They find fraternity with their fellow mercenaries, and their trust and relationships grow as they fight together. Hence, Zealot was once able to love Juno--on the battlefield.

But Juno then removes herself from the battlefield, while Zealot cannot. Hence Zealot's hesitation, his detachment from Juno. Even while she fights, the child anchors her into a realm of domesticity. Zealot can no longer see her in the battlefield setting although she returns to it to fight beside him. He tells her to return to their child. She's her mother, after all. Mother of course being the emblem of domesticity. For Zealot, Juno no longer exists as an entity on the battlefield, and thus he has grown detached from her.

What evidence do you have for this theory? We haven't seen what Yuno was like when she was younger. We don't know that Yuno has changed. All this is conjecture. If Yuno had been a very different person when she was younger, wouldn't that be mentioned like... ever?

While Zealot technically met her on the battlefield, he's never actually fought her. We don't even know if he's seen her in battle. After all, there /wasn't/ a battle and Zealot went out of his way to negotiate a truce. And surely, if Zealot was really in love with Yuno the Soldier rather than Yuno the Mother, wouldn't he be really emotive and ecstatic when he sees her again in the flightleader uniform and fighting alongside him? Unless, of course, you're reading too much into this, and that's just his personality.

It's not that he never loved her. It's not that he's gay. It's that for Zealot, life begins and ends on the battlefield. He cannot settle down, he cannot become domesticated. Battle calls to him, as he tells Noah--he will not die peacefully, in bed. People have pointed out the "Haha, that's Juno" line in the Tate support. Let's look at that again:

Except that battle doesn't "call" to him. He's pretty clear about why he fights, for MONEY. He's not Karel or Ashnard, and him making an offhand comment about dying on the battlefield doesn't change that.

And if he's some some bloodthirsty battle-fiend, why would he negotiate a truce?

What does Zealot identify Juno with? What is the prompter that makes him say his now-infamous "Haha, that's Juno" line? Why, it's an evocation of the domestic. Juno worrying over meals, clothes--domestic, motherly attributes. That is how he sees her. Look at the B support, this theme goes even further:

And he says "haha, that's Yuno". There is no Mother-Yuno and Soldier-Yuno. He's used to her acting in that way, and clearly he loves her for it, or he wouldn't be smiling or laughing.

Yes, he asks about Juno's parents. But note that he does so with the knowledge that they were soldiers. Again, what interests Zealot is not the domestic but the battlefield. When he learns of Juno's parents's death on the battlefield, he is wordless.

30 minutes later, Zealot thinks of a really funny joke he could have told. "Curses... I have let down the honour of the Ilian Mercenary Knights!"

Treck:

"Huh?"

Zealot:

"Go back to sleep, Treck..."

People have said "How sweet, Zealot asks about Juno's parents, that means he cares" but again we must think of the full circumstances around his question. Remember, he married Juno the soldier, not Juno the mother. What he asks Tate here is about a soldierly past, a past on the battlefield. "All I know is that they were soldiers" indicates that what he has spoken to Juno before about her parents has SOLELY involved them being soldiers. He knows nothing else about them. And that's entirely my point--soldiers and battle is all Zealot can know.

You know, that's supposed to be a metaphor, unless you're suggesting that Zealot has some sort of learning disability where he can literally only learn facts that pertain to war.

Summary: Zealot is NOT gay, Zealot ONCE loved Juno, but only in the context of the battlefield; now that she has become Mother-Juno rather than Soldier-Juno he has grown detached from her. Zealot's character prevents him from settling down, prevents him from living a life of peace. The battlefield calls to him, and for him must be his end.

Summary: You don't have any evidence at all to back yourself up. We don't know that Zealot doesn't love Yuno, or that he used to if he doesn't now, or that the reason for the change was the change in Yuno's personality, or that Yuno's personality changed at all. Clearly, Zealot's character does not prevent him from settling down, since we know that he does return to Ilia, rebuilds it and becomes it's first King, and that Yuno lives Happily Ever After with him (the implication being that she lived her natural lifespan with Zealot).

[-Cynthia-]

Except that he does "settle down and become domesticated" in the ending. Juno lived the rest of her life with Zealot (which means Zealot lived the rest of his life with Juno). Zealot becomes King of Ilia (keep in mind that Zealot and Juno's endings don't contradict at all here). The only way Zealot actually dies on the battlefield is if he dies during the story. If Zealot actually felt the need to spend the rest of his life on the battlefield, you think he would do so in his ending. The character you've invented for Zealot doesn't seem to be what IS had in mind.

Edited March 5, 2012 by -Cynthia-

[Sunwoo]

As I pointed out earlier, Zealot and Juno met on the battlefield--their entire relationship is based around an act of diplomacy, with Zealot and Juno, tellingly, on two different sides. I've stated before that Zealot (and the Ogma archetype as a whole) is able to form attachments in a battlefield setting with their comrades-in-arms. They find fraternity with their fellow mercenaries, and their trust and relationships grow as they fight together. Hence, Zealot was once able to love Juno--on the battlefield.

But Juno then removes herself from the battlefield, while Zealot cannot. Hence Zealot's hesitation, his detachment from Juno. Even while she fights, the child anchors her into a realm of domesticity. Zealot can no longer see her in the battlefield setting although she returns to it to fight beside him. He tells her to return to their child. She's her mother, after all. Mother of course being the emblem of domesticity. For Zealot, Juno no longer exists as an entity on the battlefield, and thus he has grown detached from her.

I can't see this the way you are telling us that it "is". Zealot met Juno on the battlefield, but I don't feel as if your interpretation of him falling in love with "Juno the soldier" and becoming distant from "Juno the mother" is convincing to me. Yes, he tells her to return to their child. Wouldn't you do the same thing, though, if you were in Zealot's place? You and your wife are fighting in a war that will surely claim many lives before it is over. Your child is possibly only a year old. You're worried. What if you AND your wife don't make it out? But you've pledged yourself to this army. Your wife, on the other hand, hasn't exactly pledged herself the same way you had. Your army rescued her when she was held prisoner, and she chose to join you.

IN THE TIME AND AGE THAT FE6 TAKES PLACE IN: a man like Zealot would probably consider himself a coward if he ran away from the battlefield. Even if he weren't from poor-as-dirt Ilia, even though he and his wife have a very young daughter, a man would consider it cowardly if he left the battlefield, if he were not ordered to do so. Juno is a woman, one who has just recently had a child, and I don't think society would consider her a coward if she listened to her husband's pleas to "return home to their child". It's not a "Zealot" thing. It's a society thing. Zealot tells Juno to leave the battlefield, BECAUSE HE IS A MAN AND SHE IS A WOMAN. A man (regardless of whether they are from Ilia or Lycia or Sacae) cannot run from battle unless he was ordered directly to do so by his commander without being seen as a coward. A woman would not be viewed as one if she left because her husband asked her to return to their child.

Yes, he asks about Juno's parents. But note that he does so with the knowledge that they were soldiers. Again, what interests Zealot is not the domestic but the battlefield. When he learns of Juno's parents's death on the battlefield, he is wordless. People have said "How sweet, Zealot asks about Juno's parents, that means he cares" but again we must think of the full circumstances around his question. Remember, he married Juno the soldier, not Juno the mother. What he asks Tate here is about a soldierly past, a past on the battlefield. "All I know is that they were soldiers" indicates that what he has spoken to Juno before about her parents has SOLELY involved them being soldiers. He knows nothing else about them. And that's entirely my point--soldiers and battle is all Zealot can know.

I think Zealot is just genuinely curious in Juno's past. Clearly, he would have met Juno after she lost her parents so therefore he never would have met them or heard any word of her parents wanting to meet him. If he ever asked, she probably simply replied, "My parents were soldiers" without any other detail, because she doesn't want to talk about how they died. Zealot asking Tate about their parents is probably his way of learning more about Juno and her background, because Juno herself doesn't want to talk about it. Perhaps he would have better luck finding out about her parents from her sister? If he starts off a conversation with "all I know is that they are soldiers", he is just telling Tate that is the extent of his knowledge.

Put yourself in Zealot's shoes again. Let's say that you are asking the much younger sister of your wife about their parents, because the only thing your wife would tell you is that they worked for law enforcement. You ask your sister-in-law: "__, could you tell me about your parents?" She responds: "Oh, __ never told you about them?" And you respond, "No. All I know is that they were in law enforcement." Does that mean that all you care is about the parents' jobs? Of course not (or at least, I hope not). Zealot is just establishing to Tate that the extent of what he knows about Juno's parents is that they were soldiers. I don't think his pointing it out is anything significant.

Summary: Zealot is NOT gay, Zealot ONCE loved Juno, but only in the context of the battlefield; now that she has become Mother-Juno rather than Soldier-Juno he has grown detached from her. Zealot's character prevents him from settling down, prevents him from living a life of peace. The battlefield calls to him, and for him must be his end.

As repeated by several other people before: THE BATTLEFIELD CALLS TO HIM BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY WAY THEY CAN SURVIVE. If he is more detached from Juno now that she has become a mother, it's because he has a child to support as well. It is not just him and Juno that they must provide for. He has a child. Whom he must provide for. And one of them has to stay with the child. It makes sense (in the time and age of FE6) for the MOTHER to stay at home with the child, while the FATHER works. The battlefield does not call to Zealot because he has a thrill for it. It calls to him because THEY MUST SURVIVE.

[General Banzai]

What evidence do you have for this theory? We haven't seen what Yuno was like when she was younger. We don't know that Yuno has changed. All this is conjecture. If Yuno had been a very different person when she was younger, wouldn't that be mentioned like... ever?

When she was younger, she didn't have a child. That is the change.

While Zealot technically met her on the battlefield, he's never actually fought her. We don't even know if he's seen her in battle. After all, there /wasn't/ a battle and Zealot went out of his way to negotiate a truce. And surely, if Zealot was really in love with Yuno the Soldier rather than Yuno the Mother, wouldn't he be really emotive and ecstatic when he sees her again in the flightleader uniform and fighting alongside him? Unless, of course, you're reading too much into this, and that's just his personality.

I explained this already. One can't simply go back from "being a mother". Juno is in a fighter's uniform but she's still got a child. That cannot change.

Except that battle doesn't "call" to him. He's pretty clear about why he fights, for MONEY. He's not Karel or Ashnard, and him making an offhand comment about dying on the battlefield doesn't change that.

Noah: Nobles from other nations say that Ilia sells death for a living. They say that we are vultures attracted to blood and decaying meat.

Zealot: That doesn't bother me. It's a fact that Ilia couldn't survive without war. We are giving our own blood as well to survive.

It's not just money. It's survival. Zealot claims he gives his own blood to survive--and at the same time, he is not worried by this at all. He is complacent; it doesn't bother him. Furthermore, he constantly claims that he fights for ILIA'S survival, rather than personal survival or the survival of his family. Not only do we see this in the Juno support I previously brought up in which, while Juno uses a personal "we" to describe the family, Zealot talks of the same concepts with a universal "we" to describe Ilia as a nation.

Zealot: We are members of the proud Ilian Mercenary Knights. This is a battle that will determine the world's fate... And to us, that isn't all. The reputation of the Ilian Mercenary Knights will be determined by our actions and how we fight in this battle. That shall have a great impact on the future of Ilia, and thus...

Zealot's longest line in the entire game, and what is it about? "The reputation of the Ilian Mercenary Knights." "The future of Ilia." Zealot only finds the words to speak when he talks of these loftier concepts. Even look in his Juno support. When speaking about his daughter he can only bring himself to utter short, six-or-seven word statements. But when he starts talking about THE FUTURE OF ILIA and THE MERCENARY KNIGHTS he lapses into long sentences, extended speeches. In the Thany support, what is his longest line? When he describes the battlefield negotiations with Juno. When Thany asks Zealot about his proposal words, about the specific romantic elements of his marriage, he freezes up, can't come up with any answers, begins to "er" and "um". Zealot can only speak at length about battle, fighting, and Ilia--all the while he shies away from his marriage and his child.

He is detached from Juno.

And if he's some some bloodthirsty battle-fiend, why would he negotiate a truce?

I didn't say bloodthirsty. I simply said that he can only exist in the realm of the soldier, not in the realm of domesticity.

Summary: You don't have any evidence at all to back yourself up. We don't know that Zealot doesn't love Yuno, or that he used to if he doesn't now, or that the reason for the change was the change in Yuno's personality, or that Yuno's personality changed at all. Clearly, Zealot's character does not prevent him from settling down, since we know that he does return to Ilia, rebuilds it and becomes it's first King, and that Yuno lives Happily Ever After with him (the implication being that she lived her natural lifespan with Zealot).

That's incorrect, though, because I have demonstrated multiple times and with a wide breadth of evidence that Zealot is detached from Juno and at the same time magnetized towards the battlefield, towards lofty topics such as "The Good of Ilia." Furthermore, nowhere in the endings do we learn that Juno lived Happily Ever After with Zealot. All Zealot's ending mentions is that he became King of Ilia., and for a man so obsessed with his nation's welfare, I guess that's not such a stretch. And don't say "Olol gameplay restrictions no paired endings" because Zealot's ending doesn't even mention his daughter, either, who could be there regardless of whether Juno died or not.

His ending even acts as added evidence to my claim. For Zealot it is Ilia, Ilia, Ilia, no room at all for his family.

[deranger]

When she was younger, she didn't have a child. That is the change.

...really?

[Sunwoo]

When she was younger, she didn't have a child. That is the change.

I explained this already. One can't simply go back from "being a mother". Juno is in a fighter's uniform but she's still got a child. That cannot change.

It takes two people to make a child, as I am sure you are well aware. Juno is the mother. Zealot is the father. Or are you trying to argue that Zealot is a deadbeat dad/sperm doner running away from his parental responsibility? If Zealot seems detached from his daughter and wife, it is because he is unable to be at home because he is trying to SUPPORT THEM.

It's not just money. It's survival. Zealot claims he gives his own blood to survive--and at the same time, he is not worried by this at all. He is complacent; it doesn't bother him. Furthermore, he constantly claims that he fights for ILIA'S survival, rather than personal survival or the survival of his family. Not only do we see this in the Juno support I previously brought up in which, while Juno uses a personal "we" to describe the family, Zealot talks of the same concepts with a universal "we" to describe Ilia as a nation.

Fiora, Farina, Noah, Treck, and Tate seem to be the same way. It doesn't bother them. They know that it is the way Ilia works as well. Fiora fights for Ilia's survival as well. Duty is everything to Fiora. Her default says that she continued to be a pegasus knight and that her donations saved many poor families from destitution. And yet, we are not having this argument about Fiora or anyone else. We are having it about Zealot. So why is Zealot is different from the rest of Ilia's mercenaries?

Zealot's longest line in the entire game, and what is it about? "The reputation of the Ilian Mercenary Knights." "The future of Ilia." Zealot only finds the words to speak when he talks of these loftier concepts. Even look in his Juno support. When speaking about his daughter he can only bring himself to utter short, six-or-seven word statements. But when he starts talking about THE FUTURE OF ILIA and THE MERCENARY KNIGHTS he lapses into long sentences, extended speeches. In the Thany support, what is his longest line? When he describes the battlefield negotiations with Juno. When Thany asks Zealot about his proposal words, about the specific romantic elements of his marriage, he freezes up, can't come up with any answers, begins to "er" and "um". Zealot can only speak at length about battle, fighting, and Ilia--all the while he shies away from his marriage and his child.

You do know that speaking about your marriage (especially to your silly little sister-in-law who's always cheerful) and feelings is enough to make a lot of people stutter? Women as well as men? Zealot seems to be a charismatic guy who is a loyal patriot to his country. His country's honor means everything to him. It is easy for him to be a patriot. But speaking of his marriage and his child does not come easily to him ... why? Because one's patriotic duty to your country is different than your own personal feelings. He has difficulty expressing the things that are important to HIM. It is easy for Zealot to speak of what is best for Ilia. And that's not unusual at all. There are plenty of people who get all worked up about their patriotic duty to their country, and yet they get tongue-tied when someone asks them about their personal life. SPEAKING OF PATRIOTIC DUTY IN A SPEECH IS DIFFERENT THAN TALKING ABOUT INTIMATE, PERSONAL DETAILS ABOUT YOURSELF. I can understand where Zealot is coming from.

That's incorrect, though, because I have demonstrated multiple times and with a wide breadth of evidence that Zealot is detached from Juno and at the same time magnetized towards the battlefield, towards lofty topics such as "The Good of Ilia." Furthermore, nowhere in the endings do we learn that Juno lived Happily Ever After with Zealot. All Zealot's ending mentions is that he became King of Ilia., and for a man so obsessed with his nation's welfare, I guess that's not such a stretch. And don't say "Olol gameplay restrictions no paired endings" because Zealot's ending doesn't even mention his daughter, either, who could be there regardless of whether Juno died or not.

His ending even acts as added evidence to my claim. For Zealot it is Ilia, Ilia, Ilia, no room at all for his family.

Juno doesn't exist 50% of the time. If you went to Sacae, and if this is your first time playing the game, how would you know (if you never looked it up via Internet or asked anyone) that Zealot's wife whom he talks about with Tate and Thany is a playable character? Juno's ending doesn't mention their child, either. And in FE7, there are some paired endings that talk more about one person than the other. Take Hector's for example. The most lines that his wife ever gets in their paired ending is, "His beloved ___ gave him comfort and helped him become an enlightened leader." In other words, Hector's paired ending with his wife is about HECTOR. His wife is only mentioned as being a figure of comfort. Just because Zealot's ending does not mention Juno, it does not mean that he did not live with her. Juno's ending mentions that she lived happily with Zealot. This doesn't conflict with Zealot's ending. Zealot can be king of Ilia. Juno can live her life happily with Zealot. End of discussion.

[Anouleth]

When she was younger, she didn't have a child. That is the change.

I explained this already. One can't simply go back from "being a mother". Juno is in a fighter's uniform but she's still got a child. That cannot change.

Are we really supposed to believe that merely having a child (that he's never even seen) is enough for Zealot to stop loving someone? Is this how anyone acts?

Noah: Nobles from other nations say that Ilia sells death for a living. They say that we are vultures attracted to blood and decaying meat.

Zealot: That doesn't bother me. It's a fact that Ilia couldn't survive without war. We are giving our own blood as well to survive.

It's not just money. It's survival. Zealot claims he gives his own blood to survive--and at the same time, he is not worried by this at all. He is complacent; it doesn't bother him.

He has been doing it a long time... You would kind of get accustomed to the life of the mercenary. And he'd get used to people talking shit about him, saying that he's a vulture, that he doesn't love his wife, that he's obsessed with battle...

Furthermore, he constantly claims that he fights for ILIA'S survival, rather than personal survival or the survival of his family. Not only do we see this in the Juno support I previously brought up in which, while Juno uses a personal "we" to describe the family, Zealot talks of the same concepts with a universal "we" to describe Ilia as a nation.

Zealot: But I have faith that there will come a time when [ilia] will have good harvests in Ilia as well.

Nope, doesn't make sense, sorry.

Zealot: We are members of the proud Ilian Mercenary Knights. This is a battle that will determine the world's fate... And to us, that isn't all. The reputation of the Ilian Mercenary Knights will be determined by our actions and how we fight in this battle. That shall have a great impact on the future of Ilia, and thus...

Zealot's longest line in the entire game, and what is it about? "The reputation of the Ilian Mercenary Knights." "The future of Ilia." Zealot only finds the words to speak when he talks of these loftier concepts. Even look in his Juno support. When speaking about his daughter he can only bring himself to utter short, six-or-seven word statements. But when he starts talking about THE FUTURE OF ILIA and THE MERCENARY KNIGHTS he lapses into long sentences, extended speeches.

If you read the entire support, the whole point of that long speech is to set up a gag wherein Treck humorously fails to give a shit. Not every line of dialogue is about Resolving the Masculine Conflict of Father and Soldier Roles or whatever English majors write papers on. Sometimes it's just to set up an unfunny joke. Next, you'll be attempting to dissect Treck/Gonzales for something meaningful.

In the Thany support, what is his longest line? When he describes the battlefield negotiations with Juno.

"I attempted to settle things peacefully through discussion. Yuno was a beautiful and caring woman, so things went well. And then, things just progressed after that."

I'd have liked to have seen THOSE negotiations, if you know what I mean, nudge nudge, I'll bet Zealot gave her a load of his Silver Lance, oy oy!

But seriously, how can you possibly interpret "Yuno was a beautiful and caring woman" as a sign of Zealot's obsession with being Sir Soldier?

When Thany asks Zealot about his proposal words, about the specific romantic elements of his marriage, he freezes up, can't come up with any answers, begins to "er" and "um". Zealot can only speak at length about battle, fighting, and Ilia--all the while he shies away from his marriage and his child.

Obviously, because it's personal and private: and he wasn't expecting her to ask such a personal, private question instead of respond to his statement. And besides, it's perfectly natural to keep such stuff private. Thany keeps her own feelings private, after all.

I didn't say bloodthirsty. I simply said that he can only exist in the realm of the soldier, not in the realm of domesticity.

Right. Evidence for this interpretation?

That's incorrect, though, because I have demonstrated multiple times and with a wide breadth of evidence that Zealot is detached from Juno

And I don't accept it. For every line in which Zealot is supposedly detached, there's another where he shows concern for her. In two of the three of their supports, Zealot is the one who approaches Yuno, and in both cases to talk about their family. Zealot frequently goes out of his way to talk about Yuno with Tate (note that he always initiates these conversations). Certainly, Zealot talks far more about Yuno than Yuno ever does about Zealot. And Zealot even shows concern for Thany, too. Would Sir Soldier go around asking little pegasus boys if they have any crushes?

and at the same time magnetized towards the battlefield, towards lofty topics such as "The Good of Ilia."

And while he's clearly quite the patriotic man, that doesn't mean he can't also love his wife and daughter.

Furthermore, nowhere in the endings do we learn that Juno lived Happily Ever After with Zealot.

Uh....

"After returning to Edessa, Yuno worked to reunite the divided Pegasus Knights of Ilia. Later, she was asked to lead the newly united Pegasus Knights, but she refused and led the rest of her life happily with Zealot."

All Zealot's ending mentions is that he became King of Ilia., and for a man so obsessed with his nation's welfare, I guess that's not such a stretch.

I thought he was obsessed with war and battle?

And don't say "Olol gameplay restrictions no paired endings" because Zealot's ending doesn't even mention his daughter, either, who could be there regardless of whether Juno died or not.

Nor does Roy's ending mention his father.

His ending even acts as added evidence to my claim. For Zealot it is Ilia, Ilia, Ilia, no room at all for his family.

I could say the same thing for Fir and Noah. Or Roy and any of his harem.

[Sunwoo]

Next, you'll be attempting to dissect Treck/Gonzales for something meaningful.

I would actually love to see that.

But you bring up a good point in your last paragraph. Since no one but Roy has paired endings, the other characters' endings don't ... ever really reference each other. Let's look at Sue and Dayan's endings in a nutshell as an example. Sue's says that she returned to Sacae and lived in the plains. Dayan's says that he reformed the Kutolah. But Sue is Dayan's granddaughter. Does Sue's ending imply that she just ... lived on her own, in a void, and that because her ending and Dayan's endings do not reference each other, they never crossed paths again? I'd certainly hope that people don't interpret it as such. In the same token, just because Zealot's ending does not reference Juno, it doesn't mean that they didn't live together or that they weren't happy together. And Juno's ending pretty clearly states that they lived together.

[General Banzai]

I've already explained that Juno living happily with Zealot =/= Zealot living happily with Juno. I explained it much more thoroughly than I am now because I've already explained it before. This has only forced me to realize that we are merely cycling through the same points over and over with no actual progress being made. Time to write up the Navarre.

[Sunwoo]

Then I guess we'll all have to agree to disagree on this. This doesn't mean you're right, and it doesn't mean that we're right either. We all have our own opinions on Zealot, supported by what we know from the text and our own personal interpretations. So that doesn't make everyone else wrong just because they don't disagree with you.

[General Banzai]

The Navarre

Pensive, brooding swordsman of few words. A renowned killer, often with his own nickname. His reputation proceeds him; the player often hears whispers of the Navarre before he ever appears onscreen.

Despite his cold-blooded exterior, a hidden honor dictates the Navarre's actions. Oftentimes a dark secret in his past is what keeps him from betraying any high emotion. He acts as a foil to the Ogma; in many instances the Navarre and the Ogma will have a conversation in which the Navarre's lockdown of emotion butts heads with the Ogma's sociability towards his comrades-in-arms. Even after the Navarre joins the team he often acts as a "lone wolf," keeping himself away from the rest of the army and actively pursuing solitude. While previously we have noted a relationship between the Navarre, the Julian, and the Lena, this relationship seems only tenuously related to the archetype. Later games in the series seem to subvert or bend the relationships between the three archetypes until they no longer exist or only partially exist. When the Navarre/Julian/Lena triangle is in use, however, it typically stems from the Navarre seeing in the Lena a sense of salvation which attracts him to her. A Navarre with a relationship with the Lena often seeks repentance for his killing; a Navarre without a relationship with the Lena is often just the opposite, uncaring and apathetic to his crimes.

Frequently at the end of the war, the Navarre disappears without a trace.

FE1: Navarre (Lena: Lena)

FE4: Aless (Lena: Leen)

FE5: Shiva (Lena: Safi)

FE6: Rutger (No Lena)

FE7: Karel (No Lena), Jaffar (Lena: Nino), Raven (Lena: Priscilla)

FE8: —

FE9: Volke (No Lena)

FE10: Volke (No Lena)

Possible Issues: Obviously, many. The first is the question of whether or not a Lena is essential to a Navarre. Is a Navarre without a Lena (as I have described it) even a Navarre at all, or rather a different archetype altogether? Doing so would eliminate two of what I feel are the most controversial members of this list (Volke and Karel), but also someone who is commonly considered one of the clearest examples of the archetype (Rutger).

Which brings me to my second point. Many are probably of course saying "But Rutger does have a Lena! It's Clarine," to which I staunchly disagree. Rutger fights because of his hatred towards Bern, a fact which he states multiple times. He does not seek salvation or redemption. He frees Clarine because he believes it will do ill against Bern; he joins Roy only after Clarine explains that the Lycian League is fighting Bern as well. In his supports with Karel, Rutger explains that his sword was made for killing, placing himself in contrast to Karel.

Karel: Why? Am I not a worthy opponent for you?


Rutger: Your sword isn't used to kill... It doesn't agree with the path I pursue.

Now although Rutger doesn't have a Lena, he fits every other element of the Navarre. He is a renowned swordsman (Erik in Chapter 4: Hmph, not the friendliest of people. Well, he's supposed to be one of the best swordsmen in the land), brooding and quiet, haunted by a dark past, set as a foil to the Ogma (Deke), and vanishes without a trace at the war's end.

Next is Karel. No Lena, doesn't start as an enemy unit, seemingly no honor, hidden or not (at least until FE6), and also does not vanish at the end of either game he's in. Still, his fame as a killer swordsman, his terseness, and his moniker have earned him a spot on this list. I assume others will have something else to say.

Jaffar is not normally seen as a Navarre but I feel he fits the archetype almost exactly. The only problem is that his Lena, Nino, isn't really a Lena at all—but she plays the role of one as far as Jaffar is concerned. To Jaffar, she is the innocence that he must save, and is prepared to die so that she may live. He's a dangerous killer, has his own nickname, renowned across the world, speaks few words, seemingly soulless but has a hidden honor, disappears at the end of the war. All in all, a perfect fit for the archetype.

I've discussed Raven before, noting how he is a strange hybrid of the Navarre and the Ogma. Many people had problems with that distinction and I'll be more willing to argue them here.

That brings us to Volke. Again, other than missing a Lena, he fits the archetype almost exactly. While not a "swordsman" per se, he is definitely a renowned killer. He is quiet, speaks little, disappears at the end of the story. Does he have a troubled past? Impossible to know, but I feel he fits enough of the requirements of the Navarre that an ambiguous past rather than a clearly troubled one doesn't work too much against him.

EDIT: It seems I completely forgot about Joshua. At first he seems to fit the bill, even having an apparent Lena and everything, but on closer look he misses the mark on multiple counts. First off, he is not a renowned killer or mercenary. Generic soldiers are bossing him around in his joining chapter, and he can't even win at the arena. Secondly he is neither quiet nor pensive. Thirdly his past isn't exactly troubled, although he runs from it all the same. Fourthly while he seeks redemption for running away from home, he doesn't seek it through Natasha, making her a false Lena anyways. Fifthly, rather than disappearing at the end of the story, he takes the highly public post of King of Jehanna. He doesn't even have his own nickname, either.

Edited March 6, 2012 by General Banzai

[The_Purple_Knight]

What kind of debate is this ? I thought this disscusion was about archetypes in all the fire emblem games . Not 7 fucking pages about if a single through away character has homo eroitc or homosocial tendencies. How come every literal debate ends up being completely about the home eroticism clearly demonstrated by this character or that character . My god i haven't read this much bullshit since ap English back in high school .

[Elieson]

Obviously, you can't tell that this is all being written by an English major looking to put a spin on Serene Forest's heavily-math based analysis of Fire Emblem games.

[Sunwoo]

I'm not an English major, but I have been told by my English professor and teachers that I'm good at analysis and whatnot. And even I think that Banzai is going a bit overboard in his analysis of Zealot and Juno's marriage.

[-Cynthia-]

I'd say Lucius acts as a secondary Lena for Raven.

Hmm, I would say that Karla acts as Karel's Lena. Their support seems indicate that she's the catalyst for Karel's change at least.

Karla: Cut me down, Brother. I simply wanted to hear your voice before I died. Now I have. I am satisfied.

Karel: ......

Karla: ......

Karel: Karla... You haven’t changed. But I have. I must have. When I am with you, I remember the past.

Karla: Brother...

Karel: Go where you will. I will not fight you.

Rutgar doesn't really have a Lena, but he also seems to want to change, at least at the end of his Karel A support.

Karel: I was born in Sacae as well. I grew up under the protection of Father Sky and Mother Earth. They are all that are in my sword.

Rutgar: I'm not a pure Sacaean... I wouldn't be able to sense them like you can...

Karel: Was that true when you were young?

Rutgar: !!

Karel: You were able to hear the sky and the earth once. Although, now it seems that your hate is covering your ears.

Rutgar: ...Do you think I'll be able to hear them again once this war ends?

Karel: Of course you will. The breeze that runs through the plains... It never forgets those that it loves.

Basically, Rutgar wants to get rid of his hatred for Bern and thinks he will be able to once the war ends.

If "change" is considered an essential part of the Navarre archetype, the only one who doesn't seem to fit is Volke.

[Sunwoo]

I really can't see anyone in Tellius as a Navarre, to tell you the truth. (Outside of Zihark from a gameplay perspective.)

[Onmi]

Obviously, you can't tell that this is all being written by an English major looking to put a spin on Serene Forest's heavily-math based analysis of Fire Emblem games.

And I'm a Professional Writing major with a focus in creative writing and a second major in Multimedia. What's your point?

Anyway, the Navarre seems fine to me, although my question is, is it the Lena who's tied into the Navarre? from my own memory (admittedly bad since I hate Shadow Dragon) from my own memory he never really interacts with her. Again just from memory, isn't he more tied to Feena from New Mystery? After all Sheeda is the one who recruits him in Shadow Dragon. Again I fully admit to being wrong if I am.

[Sunwoo]

Anyway, the Navarre seems fine to me, although my question is, is it the Lena who's tied into the Navarre? from my own memory (admittedly bad since I hate Shadow Dragon) from my own memory he never really interacts with her. Again just from memory, isn't he more tied to Feena from New Mystery? After all Sheeda is the one who recruits him in Shadow Dragon. Again I fully admit to being wrong if I am.

Isn't the "Julian archetype" more tied to the "Lena" in the original game, though? But then again, in the original game, the Julian and Lena ran away together, and the Navarre was fighting for the bandits hunting them down before Caeda recruited him.

[Ϲharlie]

Navarre never interacts with Lena in FE1/3, and he doesn't get any sort of support bonus from her either. He also doesn't seem to have any interest in salvation or redemption considering he goes right back to working with bandits after the first war. The one thing that really stands out about him is that he refuses to harm women or children.

[The_Purple_Knight]

Obviously, you can't tell that this is all being written by an English major looking to put a spin on Serene Forest's heavily-math based analysis of Fire Emblem games.

You better be being sarcastic .how could I not know point is only thing he really has been talking about is whether or not zealot is gay or not and that isn't the title of topic . I understand literal analysis Ive had to write quite a few essay and read an utter load of various literary criticisms and analyses and I can safely say this just retard . The only thing I agree with him on is how the placement of commas effects the meaning anyone who's even taken any college level English course should know the effect syntax can have on the meaning of a sentence .