Lord Raven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Also in a debate, someone doesn't ignore most of the points brought up by focusing on a select few points. In a dispute, people always think their side is ironclad truth [08:47:57] <Raven> i sincerely think/hope that a man who made a child and married a woman and remains married to this woman while being insecure about whether or not his sister in law likes him [08:48:02] <Raven> this man loves his wife [08:48:11] <Raven> otherwise everything i know is a lie Edited March 5, 2012 by Mercenary Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narga_Rocks Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Also in a debate, someone doesn't ignore most of the points brought up by focusing on a select few points. I think you should specify "good debate", as there are tons of debates on this very site in which that is exactly what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Honestly, Banzai isn't really convincing me on his stance for Zealot. I try to be open-minded in debates, but ... I feel like he's making too big of an issue on things that I think may actually apply to men in general. For example, the wedding being a gift thing. Don't all husbands want to "give" their wife a beautiful and elegant wedding? During the time, age, and setting that FE6 is supposed to take place in, don't all men think that if both he and his wife were out fighting and they had a newborn daughter, the wife should be the one to go home and take care of her ... especially if their country is as poor as Ilia is so one of them has to stay on the battlefield? I can't really see any instances where Zealot views his marriage to Juno as ... well, what Banzai describes it to be. ._. Edited March 5, 2012 by Boron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 [08:47:57] <Raven> i sincerely think/hope that a man who made a child and married a woman and remains married to this woman while being insecure about whether or not his sister in law likes him [08:48:02] <Raven> this man loves his wife [08:48:11] <Raven> otherwise everything i know is a lie You're talking about this in chat? *Sniff* I'm getting all teary-eyed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Not in IP.Chat, but the overwhelming amount of evidence against you at this point is pretty much a testament to your stubbornness. That's what I'm getting at. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 How many pages did you guys spend arguing about Zealot, again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Not in IP.Chat, but the overwhelming amount of evidence against you at this point is pretty much a testament to your stubbornness. That's what I'm getting at. Overwhelming-ness of evidence is in the eye of the evidence-holder. It astounds me that you think it's so strange when people don't appreciate your arguments as much as you do, regardless of whether you're right or wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Also, "looking into it too deeply" is not an actual response. This is a forum where people prattle on and on debating stats and specific turncount based strategies. This is looking at the game no more deeply than, say, an LTC run is looking at the game. Bullshit. I know you can get away with this in your English classes, but you're simply seeing things that aren't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Are we done arguing about Zealot? Because I don't think it's going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 It astounds me that you think it's so strange when people don't appreciate your arguments as much as you do, regardless of whether you're right or wrong.I'm not making any proper arguments, by the way, I'm just calling it as I see it. As of right now, many people are more or less stating what is wrong with Banzai's arguments, and he's shrugging them off with the same argument each time. I know so many couples in real life that barely ever say "I love you" to one another but their relationship is generally strong. Zealot seems a little old and so does Yuno, so they probably don't even need to say it to get the point across, at least as they feel; there's nothing for him to admit since she obviously knows, and there's a war going on anyway.I hesitate to say a lot of things on my mind, but that means nothing on how I actually feel about it. Maybe he's just not emotional -_- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I know so many couples in real life that barely ever say "I love you" to one another but their relationship is generally strong. Agreed. Besides, I'm sure there are a lot of FE7 and FE8 couples who never say "I love you" in their supports either. ... In fact, the only ones I can think of at the moment who ever say the words "I love you" are Eliwood and Jaffar, to Ninian and Nino. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Yeah, I guess real life isn't well-written, and everyone's secretly like 25-50% bisexual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 "I love you" are really hard words to say, as simple as they may be. Heck, I can't remember if I've ever said the words "I love you" to anyone at all ... or at least since I was old enough to develop my personality and all. And I'm female at that, too. But that doesn't mean I don't love anyone. It just means that admitting my feelings is awkward, even for me. So ... I think Zealot is a loyal husband and father and that he loves his wife, although he sounds distant from her in their supports. Not every couple is like the lovey-dovey Pent and Louise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 Even if Zealot said "I love you" it would all depend on the context behind it in order to determine whether he truly meant it. What I'm looking at here is not "Oh Zealot never comes right out and says it" but rather "Oh look at all these textual clues that indicate his hesitation and detachment". You say I'M the one shrugging off arguments but you guys are the ones saying "It's just an ellipses, doesn't mean anything" or "You're looking to hard at it." Meanwhile, instead of actually looking at the text, you come around and say "Based on what I've seen in real life" or "In my experience" etc etc etc. You're specifically moving AWAY from the test and instead coming up with your own explanations for what is going on in the world, despite the fact that the FE world is meant to be a world divorced from reality; it's not even indicative of an actual historical past, let alone an actual present. We're looking at a series fraught with backstabbing or false lovers, of arranged marriages, of strained relationships--and yet you are trying to prove your points by little more than "In my experience." Dondon actual came out and really dug into the text, and I definitely appreciate that. But the rest of you can't come out and say "Oh there's overwhelming evidence against you" without even LOOKING at the text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dondon151 Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 brb writing fire emblem 6: the hentai to prove banzai wrong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Raven Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) You're bitching and moaning that "you're looking too much into ellipses" is an invalid argument, then saying that "FE is fiction, fuck real life" is invalid has got to be some degree of hypocritical. EDIT: Yuri and Alice in Shadow Hearts 1. Alice never says "I love you" except that one part towards the end of the sequel. And Yuri is stuttery and hesitant when he falls in love with her, but doesn't even say he loves her throughout SH1. But the entire plot of the second game pretty much deals with how he's coping with losing his lover- does that mean they weren't lovers? -_- Edited March 5, 2012 by Mercenary Raven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 You say I'M the one shrugging off arguments but you guys are the ones saying "It's just an ellipses, doesn't mean anything" or "You're looking to hard at it." Yes, but I'm pretty sure some of the others then followed up on their arguments after the "it's just an ellipse" part, if not in the same post in then in the following posts. I've been mostly watching this debate and just chipping in every once in a while, but I'm pretty sure the others also used the text to present their arguments as well. And the real life thing ... it is somewhat relevant to the arguments, if you ask me. It's because you're analyzing Zealot's personality using the text, and not even considering other possibilities. You know just as well as I do that you can't take everything at face value. So maybe Zealot seems distant in the text and you think that means he's distant from his wife. But perhaps it's just in his personality. Pointing out that there are people in real life who are like that in real life is to show that our analysis of Zealot's character is just as relevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Sage Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Even if Zealot said "I love you" it would all depend on the context behind it in order to determine whether he truly meant it. What I'm looking at here is not "Oh Zealot never comes right out and says it" but rather "Oh look at all these textual clues that indicate his hesitation and detachment". You say I'M the one shrugging off arguments but you guys are the ones saying "It's just an ellipses, doesn't mean anything" or "You're looking to hard at it." Meanwhile, instead of actually looking at the text, you come around and say "Based on what I've seen in real life" or "In my experience" etc etc etc. You're specifically moving AWAY from the test and instead coming up with your own explanations for what is going on in the world, despite the fact that the FE world is meant to be a world divorced from reality; it's not even indicative of an actual historical past, let alone an actual present. We're looking at a series fraught with backstabbing or false lovers, of arranged marriages, of strained relationships--and yet you are trying to prove your points by little more than "In my experience." Dondon actual came out and really dug into the text, and I definitely appreciate that. But the rest of you can't come out and say "Oh there's overwhelming evidence against you" without even LOOKING at the text. I asked you WHY if you think Zealot doesn't love Juno why he married her and you completely ignored me. Not only that you ignored it makes no sense for Zealot to marry Juno if he doesn't love her in the first place. Instead, you're bitching about how we're just brushing off arguments and ignoring the text. I guess you would think real life relationships wouldn't have any place in this discussion because you haven't actually been in one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I guess you would think real life relationships wouldn't have any place in this discussion because you haven't actually been in one. I've never been in a relationship (nor do I want to be in one anytime soon), but I've seen enough of them when my friends were in them to know about them. :\ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is like an English class in an alternate universe where General Banzai is the teacher and instead of the students just nodding their heads and playing along with the teacher reading too much into something or shit that's not even there for a grade, they're arguing with him. I wonder if there'll be an archetype for the sadistic bosses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Banzai is..... Not worthy of the title of general. Not even loldier or jester. Zealot is gay... Wtf are you smoking. He would have had to love Juno to be willing to marry her. And please don't try to make personal archtypes and expect everyone to believe you and agree all the time. Ima going to get me some popcorn, while they rip you to shreds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Meanwhile, instead of actually looking at the text, you come around and say "Based on what I've seen in real life" or "In my experience" etc etc etc. You're specifically moving AWAY from the test and instead coming up with your own explanations for what is going on in the world, despite the fact that the FE world is meant to be a world divorced from reality; it's not even indicative of an actual historical past, let alone an actual present. We're looking at a series fraught with backstabbing or false lovers, of arranged marriages, of strained relationships--and yet you are trying to prove your points by little more than "In my experience." Humoring this post For any person in any context to make a life long commitment to anything in the world, there would have to be reason. There are many explanations for many individuals to get married outside of love, but that does not mean that Zealot married Juno for any other reason. Can you provide a single reason as to why he would marry Juno if he did not love her? Because there is not a single reason even hinted at from anything within the game, unless I've just completely missed it and you've been hiding it from us the whole time, as to why he would marry her if he did not love her. It is clear from Zealot's supports that he wants to make her happy, and that he thinks of her well-being and tries to make her life better. These are three things that, while not necessarily indicators that he does love her, Zealot would most certainly do if he did love her. These are the only three hints we get as to his motivations behind marrying Juno, in fact, and they do not point to a loveless marriage. Simply a difficult one. (Note that these two points are the ones every one else has brought up, and are more important than my personal opinion of his motivations, because, well, it's not just my opinion.) The fact that he often times refers to things in a 'roundabout' way say more about his personality and his circumstance than his feelings for his wife. If he wanted to live with Juno and his daughter, but knew that he could not, wouldn't he attempt to distance himself? I won't pretend to be an expert on emotions or psychology, but it seems to me that distancing yourself from something is a way to lessen the pain of not having it. Or, in a less wordy way of phrasing it, Zealot does not talk about how he longs to live at home with Juno because he knows that he cannot. He even says in his A support with Juno that he does not think he can stay with her. He says that he must lead the mercenary knights until they have enough money to support themselves. Most people would not want to be mercenaries and risk their lives for faceless nobles and causes that are not theirs. And if Zealot were the type to simply live for fighting, I feel that aspect of him would be expressed more often. Instead, I believe, he feels obligated to helping his family the only way he knows how, being a mercenary. If we're going to go into the specifics of which words he chooses to say, he does in fact say he "must" lead the mercenaries. Must, not want, is important. Obviously, I am not the writer, so I don't know the specific intent for Zealot's character as fact. I also don't feel like my opinion of him is a very strong one, and one I'd be perfectly willing to change, given the right evidence. My opinion is based off a few short lines of dialogue, and specific ways I interpret them. However, my interpretations do explain Zealot as a character. He loves his wife so he marries her. He leaves his wife to provide for her. He is distant from her because he feels he will never have the life with her that he wishes he could have. There are other reasons he could do these things. But unless there is evidence that does not conflict with what he does, I don't see any reason to think that your assessment of him is right. I understand that you think he is distant because he does not love her. That is a perfectly rational reason to be distant from some one, sure. But that conflicts with getting married to her. This would also be fine, if you could provide another reason for him to marry her. There is literally no benefit that we are aware of for marrying a random pegasus knight you don't love. There may be a reason, but you haven't provided it. Edited March 5, 2012 by Aethereal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MacLovin Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Arranged marriages. I don't think one exists in FE. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Arranged marriages. I don't think one exists in FE. Nyna and Hardin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aethereal Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Arranged marriages. I don't think one exists in FE. We have no reason to think Juno and Zealot are in an arranged marriage though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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