Rate the Unit, Day 3: Alan and Lance

[Duff Ostrich]

extremely mediocre in HM, 6 for both

@Duff: they have trouble gaining exp at a rate that will let them actually good when you're playing for low turn counts. they are outclassed at every point in the game: early on by marcus, then zealot, then miledy, then percival. even a noah that sprints to promotion has better short term utility (and will likely reach L10 before either allen or lance), and their long term potential is arguably not sufficient to warrant consideration of the knight crest over noah.

granted there are a fair number of merits for both, and their ability varies greatly based on playstyle, which is why they're not bad. but lately they have been dropping in the HM tier lists.

also they are arguably the least effective when used together in LTC play. it is very likely that they will not even be able to make 1 gained level per chapter.

How many of the enemies are not getting killed? I assume that's what would have to happen for the cavs to not get kills (and to get the absolute lowest turns). Even then they have more move than Dieck and Rutger, and better combat than Lot, Roy, and most other folks. And Zealot and beyond don't show up for a very long time. I've also seen people talk about a 10/1 Thany. How is she getting ten levels if they cannot? It's certainly not due to superior combat, and though she has terrain immunity they have the same move otherwise. I can understand that an unleveled Lance and Alan are going to be trounced by Miledy and other people with great bases and quick promotions, but I have trouble imagining a scenario where they're not getting kills in the earlygame, unless no one else (aside from Marcus) is either. Is that true?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm asking with regards to chapters 1-6.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Duff Ostrich

[dondon151]

This pretty much. Especially since Alan has trouble doubling earlygame and Lance doubles faster but has low damage output. They never impressed me on HM much, tbh. They were still good, but not great. On NM they're fucking awesome and both would get 10s were this NM, but NM is not the premise of what we're rating here.

The problem with the cavs on NM is that Marcus is too good.

[dondon151]

How many of the enemies are not getting killed? I assume that's what would have to happen for the cavs to not get kills (and to get the absolute lowest turns). Even then they have more move than Dieck and Rutger, and better combat than Lot, Roy, and most other folks. And Zealot and beyond don't show up for a very long time. I've also seen people talk about a 10/1 Thany. How is she getting ten levels if they cannot? It's certainly not due to superior combat, and though she has terrain immunity they have the same move otherwise. I can understand that an unleveled Lance and Alan are going to be trounced by Miledy and other people with great bases and quick promotions, but I have trouble imagining a scenario where they're not getting kills in the earlygame, unless no one else (aside from Marcus) is either. Is that true?

Actually, not many enemies are not getting killed. It's partially because rescuing takes priority for the cavs, which diverts away kills obtained on player phases. But also, keep in mind that for efficient play, you can't afford to have bad enemy phase combat, and the cavs have some pretty bad enemy phase combat - they have weak weapon types, underwhelming str, and not enough AS to double. They gain little EXP from enemy phase combat, and because they can't keep up, the player is further discouraged from using them in combat in the future.

The easy enemies can be pretty handily ORKO'd by even Marcus (soldiers). The more difficult enemies are more easily dispatched by units with higher damage output per hit (fighters, cavaliers, mercenaries). Allen and Lance don't really fit in here.

10/1 Thany is kind of a joke and is something that I never really consider. It's hard enough getting her to 10/1 in NM.

[Thor Odinson]

The problem with the cavs on NM is that Marcus is too good.

Marcus is pretty damn hax on NM, but considering that due to NM's lack of difficulty, some people don't want Marcus to just rape everything ever (similar to Sethless runs, even though Marcus isn't /as/ gamebreaking as Seth), so it's pretty fair to give the Cavs a higher score there as Marcus won't always be in play. But since this rating thread doesn't consider NM it doesn't really matter anyway.

vs. HM where it's like shooting yourself in the foot when you don't use Marcus.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Luminescent Blade

[Loki Laufeyson]

Those Two Guys in this installment of Fire Emblem.

Im sure the one i used was actually Lance...

Pros:

Both have horsies.

Both have pretty decent growths.

Lance has ok base speed. (for that point in the game.)

Lance also has the better speed growth.

Support with each other and with some other ok units. (and can help Roy not suck as hard.)

Weapon triangle upon promotion.

Cons:

9 times out of ten yer only gonna be using one of them after a while. (i cant remember how many Knight Crests are in this game.)

Early game shenanigans are gonna be stomped on by Marcus a lot of the time.

Really, these two has nearly identical growths give or take 5% in various stats. Allen is likely to gain more strength while Lance will gain more speed. These guys are a lot like Sain and Kent only more balanced between the two of them. Either way, its likely at least one of these guys is being used throughout the game. They are useful.

8/10. 9/10 bias for Lance cuz he really saved my ass when i tried playing this game.

[OrangeCrush980]

Oh great, I thought that FE6's abundance of shitty prepromotes would give the unpromoted units a chance to shine. But apparently even top tier units are only worth a 6/10 because why use them when Marcus and Zealot pwninate earlygame? Ugh, this is gonna be a long series.

Anyway, Alan and Lance have great stats, a great class, and great availability. Their only flaw is that their bases could be a bit higher.

Alan - 9/10

Lance - 9.5/10

[Espinosa]

I'm kinda surprised how high the scores of these two are compared to Roy. You need to slow down a bit in order to train them to a good enough level, and at that same pace you might as well keep Roy near and have the three of them build supports or something.

[Thor Odinson]

Oh great, I thought that FE6's abundance of shitty prepromotes would give the unpromoted units a chance to shine. But apparently even top tier units are only worth a 6/10 because why use them when Marcus and Zealot pwninate earlygame? Ugh, this is gonna be a long series.

Growths weren't that high in FE6 overall even for growth units and the enemies don't suck in HM. Having good bases is still very important as getting kills is pretty hard when your damage output just isn't all that great.

[Mekkah]

I'll take a break from ultra low turn count land to give Lance and Alan credit for their incredible utility in slower runs in this game. Their support bonuses are just so broken.

9/10 for both.

[Raven]

I'm kinda surprised how high the scores of these two are compared to Roy. You need to slow down a bit in order to train them to a good enough level, and at that same pace you might as well keep Roy near and have the three of them build supports or something.

I'll second that. I think people are giving these two cavaliers praise that they don't deserve. It's basically all down to how well a unit can cope in the HM environment, and these two don't make the cut and certainly don't deserve those scores of anything between 8 and 10. Maybe some people should actually try using them in HM then come back and give their score.

[dondon151]

Oh great, I thought that FE6's abundance of shitty prepromotes would give the unpromoted units a chance to shine. But apparently even top tier units are only worth a 6/10 because why use them when Marcus and Zealot pwninate earlygame? Ugh, this is gonna be a long series.

Allen and Lance are not top tier units. Furthermore, there are a lot of really shitty unpromoted units as well. I'd wager that FE6 prepromotes are, relative to the unpromoted units in the game, among the best prepromotes in the series.

[Espinosa]

I'll second that. I think people are giving these two cavaliers praise that they don't deserve. It's basically all down to how well a unit can cope in the HM environment, and these two don't make the cut and certainly don't deserve those scores of anything between 8 and 10. Maybe some people should actually try using them in HM then come back and give their score.

Isn't HM what most people choose to play the game in? I personally can't even consider NM when I compare the stats with and without the hard mode bonuses for say, Rutger or Percival, even if I know I'm in for a treat that may be a little extreme for my playstyle. I've always found it really hard to get all the items and characters in 11A, for example.

[Onmi]

We're talking Hard Mode, so Alan starts off slightly tougher than Lance because of his strength, by the time they get their levels up (not at all hard being the second highest move units you have, two weapon types to handle anything the game throws at you, and their double support. Which is easy to get up. and since Marcus is carrying Roy, neither of them are weighed down)

So 10/10 for Alan, who starts off with slightly better damage output, and 9.5/10 for Lance, who gets a Javelin to pass around, but has less strength and not enough speed to double on HM.

[Raven]

Isn't HM what most people choose to play the game in? I personally can't even consider NM when I compare the stats with and without the hard mode bonuses for say, Rutger or Percival, even if I know I'm in for a treat that may be a little extreme for my playstyle. I've always found it really hard to get all the items and characters in 11A, for example.

I know of some people who play the Normal and Easy modes of FE games because they can't hack the Hard modes, but as for this community, I'd say the majority play Hard modes most of the time.

We're talking Hard Mode, so Alan starts off slightly tougher than Lance because of his strength, by the time they get their levels up (not at all hard being the second highest move units you have, two weapon types to handle anything the game throws at you, and their double support. Which is easy to get up. and since Marcus is carrying Roy, neither of them are weighed down)

So 10/10 for Alan, who starts off with slightly better damage output, and 9.5/10 for Lance, who gets a Javelin to pass around, but has less strength and not enough speed to double on HM.

We're talking Hard mode, but you are are clearly not. The supports are useful, but assuming you are talking about Roy in the "double support" thing you mentioned, then that is totally contradictory to the fact you said Marcus is carrying Roy. How can you build supports between Roy, Alan and Lance if Roy's only around to seize the throne? And why would you make Marcus carry Roy? You need his doubling ability to deal with earlygame enemy units effectively. Given once Zealot comes along, he can take Marcus' role, but why put Marcus to the duty of carrying Roy when he can keep fighting alongside Zealot and proceed to help rape chapters up to the point you retire him (around the time when you recruit Percival I suppose). If anyone should be carrying Roy, it's Thany or the two cavaliers.

And how exactly does the inability to double enemies warrant a 9.5? You say Lance can't double - he doubles a number of slower enemies, and he has 2 more base speed over Alan, so is certainly doubling more than Alan is off the bat, and as a result his damage output is in fact more than Alan's because he can at least double some enemies. Neither are one-rounding anyone. Alan might be in lategame, but that's about it.

I know this is an opinion thread but some of the stuff people are posting is so ignorant to the facts.

[Agro]

I use Alan and Lance in all my HM runs (I've only two two but shhh) and for me I've found that they're mainly only useful in the middle of the game - in the earlygame they are ridiculous because you have to baby them so badly and lategame they might be useful if they turned out good enough. I've never tried a run without them, though, so I have no idea how integral they are to the team.

[Anouleth]

dondon is perfectly happy to rig Rutger critting Erik twice and then Marcus hitting to ensure a 7 turn completion of Chapter 4 (not to mention Erik proccing 11 speed instead of 12 speed), but somehow training Alan and Lance is beyond his talents.

Alan: 10/10

Lance: 10/10

[MacLovin]

10/10

I don't need to explain, they come early, have dibs on the 2 pre-Etruria crests, and have an awesome support list, move, and wtc control

[Raven]

dondon is perfectly happy to rig Rutger critting Erik twice and then Marcus hitting to ensure a 7 turn completion of Chapter 4 (not to mention Erik proccing 11 speed instead of 12 speed), but somehow training Alan and Lance is beyond his talents.

Alan: 10/10

Lance: 10/10

I dunno, but if I was OP I'd have everyone justify their scores to a degree deemed to be reasonable. Because I don't think that's reasonable. Dafuq Anouleth. Just dafuq.

Edit: I am leaving this thread.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Raven

[Baldrick]

I'd like to justify 4/10 for both of them, but I don't think I could make it work. I'll bump them down to 7/10 using my bias point instead.

[Integrity]

I might actually start making everybody give reasoning rather than the sorta-roundabout thing I have going on now. People seem to be better about it here, whether that's a consequence of FE6 rather than FE8 forum or what have you.

[Sunwoo]

Actual justification for ratings sounds good to me (although, mind you, I can't vote in good conscience because I've never played FE6). But I would like to point out that two people could feel the exact same way about a character, and yet give them different unbiased scores due to their own personal mental rating system.

[Renall]

Well the only thing that's assumed is HM, not LTC or whatever. If a character simply cannot exist on HM without being a gigantic liability (hello, Wendy), that's one thing, but the notion that you somehow "can't" train freaking Alan and Lance is a bit ridiculous.

[Balcerzak]

8.0 for Lance, due to speed lead. 7.5 for Allan.

FE6 HM is a game of choices, and you really have to decide on a tight and efficient team. I personally always invest effort into the early flier, because having a competent rescue-drop that ignores terrain is sweet. This by necessity meansthe field of kills for everyone else is a little reduced. Add in that you need to be flexing a good deal of Marcus muscle, and the fact that the early game HM boosts are (relative to the rest of the game) the highest, Alan and Lance join in probably the worst situation for themselves. If you focus on training one to the exclusion of the other, there's a lot easier time propelling them to competence. If you can get a support with Marcus or Roy going, that will help out.

If you try to use both of them at the same time, they probably drop half a point each, due to loss of XP and their support bonus not quite cancelling out.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Balcerzak

[dondon151]

dondon is perfectly happy to rig Rutger critting Erik twice and then Marcus hitting to ensure a 7 turn completion of Chapter 4 (not to mention Erik proccing 11 speed instead of 12 speed), but somehow training Alan and Lance is beyond his talents.

I never rely on Erik getting 11 spd. Erik always has 12 spd if you start the map from a chapter save and skip the entirety of the pre-battle cutscene. He also loses at least 1 AS from either of his weapons. The only thing that will throw a wrench into my plans is if Rutger procs 14 spd, but that rarely happens.

Also, if Rutger double crits, Erik's dead, and there's no need for the Marcus manipulation. Starting the map as I've described above will always generate a 9 def Erik, which is 6HKO'd by Rutger @ Killing Edge. You only need to rig Marcus hitting Erik if Rutger gets crit + hit (the dude has 63 hit, 32 crit, so Rutger gets a crit and hits twice 28.6% of the time), and if Rutger doesn't get a crit, then you still have opportunities to try again. Oh no! An 8 turn clear! That's not fundamentally different from a 7 turn clear if you still recruit Rutger as early as possible and get him to attack Erik on turn 7.

[Culpa]

Alan and Lance are both some of the better units you can use in hard mode. They need to be babied to get going but the only units that can hold their own at start from chapter 8 and before are Rutger, Dieck, Marcus, and Zealot. Marcus also tends to leave people near death and with their 7 move they are able to clean up after him nicely to get levels. unless your going for LTC they tend to catch up with Marcus stat wise at about chapter 8. At this point they are almost as good for anything that doesn't need a silver lance or two. From chapter 9 on out they are just going to start surpassing Marcus and Zealot in stats except for weapon levels. Once you get to mid game they have become some of your best units not to mention the high move that gets there were you need them.

Overall they get an 8/10 for a becoming solid enough to hold their own fairly quick and only improving from there.