I'm pissed off.

[Zanarkin]

I agree with seph. If people don't like using other animals for testing why don't they volunteer for testing?

[Nanami Touko]

Not really what I meant but w/e ;/

[Freohr Datia]

XD

Yeah he was saying there's a good reason we use animals~

There's just no other test subjects, no other way to find out how the meds will work...

Unless we just refuse to use any meds at all and just let ourselves die off.

[Nanami Touko]

Yeah he was saying there's a good reason we use animals~

What

No, I was being serious about using people. There's 7 billion of us. Why do the monkeys deserve to be tested on over us?

Use people. A few of us missing for testing won't really matter.

[Aleph]

Dying is for diers.

[Sakusa]

We have used humans for testing in the past when we went around colonizing people and we've even used our own soldiers, but now these human rights people are making a huge fuss about it, so no more human testing!

[Nanami Touko]

We should go half and half, use animals for some, humans for others. Fair trade.

[Freohr Datia]

What

No, I was being serious about using people. There's 7 billion of us. Why do the monkeys deserve to be tested on over us?

Use people. A few of us missing for testing won't really matter.

Oh so you were XD

Well I wouldn't really support that at all =D I just doubt I could give very good arguments at all for why I don't support it...

I mean, I just don't really like using either humans or animals for testing. But sadly there's no way at all around using a living being...

[Aleph]

I volunteer you.

[Rehab]

Though I'm not in any way supporting killing animals, Elie makes a good point. If we didn't have animal testing, we would have to give humans new medicine first hand. If the medicine is messed up like in your case, then we'd be talking about your university killing humans, which is also a pretty bad thing. Monkeys also have similar DNA codes to humans, so it makes (some) sense to use them as subjects.

Nonetheless, I love animals and am disappointed in the failure of the experiment. I wish there was a way where we didn't need to have any deaths but that's not reality. If your school manages to find a cure to Parkinson's though, at least your money spent won't go completely in vain, right?

To be fair, while that wouldn't always succeed, that was what part of what actually happened with penicillin, which was a jaw-dropping success and saw the birth of anti-biotics.

The thing is, people being used by imperialists or Nazis or secretly being exposed to radiation is worth raising a huge stink over because it's non-consensual. So is this, and animal testing really (non-consensual, at least). If those people volunteered for testing, knowing what they were getting into, there's less of an argument that could be made against it.

And people do volunteer for tests somewhat similar to that, but more for things that they think will actually have a shot at working, like said penicillin example or stem cell therapy being tested now. That is, I haven't heard of anybody volunteering to get shot up with Parkinson's or possibly corrosive cosmetics or AIDS or whatever just because SCIENCE!

That person would deserve a special place in heaven though

Edited March 13, 2012 by Rehab

[Raven]

Test new shit on people who are on death row.

[Death']

Without animal testing, how much longer will it take to find cures for deadly viruses that continue to kill humans and other animals alike? How many more lives will have to die from painful and fatal diseases because you disagree that we need to get our hands dirty to take a huge leap forward instead of a small step?

Did you not read my reply at all? Maybe you're still young, so I'll excuse it, but things in this world aren't black and white. Just because someone is called a scientist doesn't automatically make their work good. yes there are benefits in animal research. But, listen. These people, they forced diseases on animals that were otherwise healthy and killed them. There are many other experiments similar to this where these deaths are ignored and scientists receive no consequences for their actions. I'm not against research. I'm against this complete lack of compassion for other animals. And if you still really really do feel like those monkeys deserved the torture and death because it could (but didn't) potentially find a cure for us, then you're the perfect example of how selfish we have become as a species. :/

If your school manages to find a cure to Parkinson's though, at least your money spent won't go completely in vain, right?

haha yeah, hopefully. Maybe I'd forgive them then xD

So use people. There's too much of us anyway, we could spare a few instead of the monkeys :V

They should totally use people who already have parkinsons or something. Or at least monkeys who have it, if they even develop it naturally, that is.

[Death']

"The abnormalities caused by the MPTP result in considerable disability for the monkeys. The monkeys are not able to move normally, have problems with balance and coordination, cannot feed themselves properly, have tremors and periods of rigidity of their bodies and loss of ability to perform normal gestures that are forms of communication between individuals. Although we cannot be certain what is going through the minds of these monkeys as they lose their ability to control their bodies, it has to be extremely frightening for them. The disability caused by the poisoning was so severe in four of the monkeys that these individuals had to be killed right after the PET scanning. The fate of the others has not been made known."

[NICKT™]

It's sad, but it's also part of life. Not every aspect of life is going to shit rainbows all over your face, sometimes you have to kinda just stand there and take it.

Not justifying it, by any means, just saying at some point we have to force ourselves to accept the fact it's a part of modern life.

[Helios]

Test new shit on people who are on death row.

That would probably be bad idea, because then governments would start throwing out death penalties a lot more often. Why deal with human rights activists, laws, and - most importantly - spend large sums of cash when you can just test on people on death row for free? It's so economical! Not like we have morals anyway.

Did you not read my reply at all? Maybe you're still young, so I'll excuse it, but things in this world aren't black and white. Just because someone is called a scientist doesn't automatically make their work good. yes there are benefits in animal research. But, listen. These people, they forced diseases on animals that were otherwise healthy and killed them. There are many other experiments similar to this where these deaths are ignored and scientists receive no consequences for their actions. I'm not against research. I'm against this complete lack of compassion for other animals. And if you still really really do feel like those monkeys deserved the torture and death because it could (but didn't) potentially find a cure for us, then you're the perfect example of how selfish we have become as a species. :/

Hahaha I think Elie is older than you Death .

They should totally use people who already have parkinsons or something. Or at least monkeys who have it, if they even develop it naturally, that is.

People do volunteer for this stuff (which I believe someone stated already) so it's not just being forced on monkeys and other animals but animals can't sign terms of agreement forms. At the hospital in my city they had volunteers to try this new drug to fight cancer and some kids did it. I also volunteered for something in my stay there, but it's kinda different relative to what this discussion is about lol.

[Death']

That is pretty eugh, yeah, but if my psych intro class is to be believed, all animals used for testing are likely to meet the same end, including however many mice and such, even those that wouldn't be killed by the experiment itself. Speaking for myself, that's troubling if true, and placing human life completely above all others seems a bit callous to me, and I'm not always of the mind that the ends justify the means, but I can't say I can firmly take a stand against all animal experimentation without second thoughts.

This is an interesting subject, actually. I could stand to read up on it.

Yeah I totally agree. man, like it's so hard to be definite about stuff like this. Each case really has to be evaluated individually or something.

and I'm a psych major too haha. One of my profs lesions and burns rat's brains and purposely induce depression and social defeat in them then make them addicted to cocaine. Did you guys get to learn about the Harlow's monkey study? that shit is messed up.

[Elieson]

Did you not read my reply at all? Maybe you're still young, so I'll excuse it, but things in this world aren't black and white. Just because someone is called a scientist doesn't automatically make their work good. yes there are benefits in animal research. But, listen. These people, they forced diseases on animals that were otherwise healthy and killed them. There are many other experiments similar to this where these deaths are ignored and scientists receive no consequences for their actions. I'm not against research. I'm against this complete lack of compassion for other animals. And if you still really really do feel like those monkeys deserved the torture and death because it could (but didn't) potentially find a cure for us, then you're the perfect example of how selfish we have become as a species. :/

They should totally use people who already have parkinsons or something. Or at least monkeys who have it, if they even develop it naturally, that is.

First off, I'm only 24, so I obviously have 0 life experience, probably similar to you.

Second, you are right, the world isn't black and white. Unfortunately, sunshine and lollipops either. Obviously, if we were compassionate, we wouldn't raise cattle and swine to be mercelessly slaughtered and ground up into discs, freeze them, bake them, and served with a side of french fries and a large diet soda made with synthetically process sugar and preservatives that make Egyptian embalming fluids look like the basics in a Wal-Mart chemistry set.

But this is life. You clearly suffer from the delusion that if one wants hard enough, it just becomes better. I don't like animal abuse any more than you do. But I don't run into the wild and stop owls from stacking healthy mice, with 2 dozen healthy babies in their home, into their stomachs. Maybe you haven't watched The Lion King lately, but just once line in it mentions that "we eat the antelope, the antelope eat the grass, and when we die, we become the grass." Well, real life is like that. It operates in a circle that builds upon itself. If it wasn't working, then explain the surplus of human life.

I don't need to complain about animal cruelty and murder any more than the next person, and I certainly don't like it, but it's real. Shit happens. I've accepted it. I'm not going to protest McDonald's for breeding animals to a state of superhealth simply for feeding a more-than-massive quantity of humans. I'm not going to protest taking animals born into medical labs for testing medicine on them either.

This leads me to my next point, one that I'm sure you will agree on. Pulling animals from their natural habitat to test on is wrong. They have life to live, whatever it may include, and it's already been established. But would you rather we grow animals, or better yet, humans, in test tubes and work science on them? Isn't that fitting into.this whole " Abortion is wrong! Killing a fetus is wrong. It's a living being, it deserves to live a full life, no matter how spoiled or horrible it might be forced into" argument. Or do you have some other sort of idea as to how to test medicine that doesn't get PETA and Human Rights extremists out of bed?

Go ahead, this is fun. And I'm serious. This is a debate I have been raised around as long as I can remember. I could debate this all night (if I don't fall asleep first, no offense).

Edited March 13, 2012 by Elieson

[Death']

Not sure why I read the whole thing, I'm pretty confused honestly.

First off, I'm only 24, so I obviously have 0 life experience, probably similar to you.

Okay, in that case I take that part back.

Second, you are right, the world isn't black and white. Unfortunately, sunshine and lollipops either. Obviously, if we were compassionate, we wouldn't raise cattle and swine to be mercelessly slaughtered and ground up into discs, freeze them, bake them, and served with a side of french fries and a large diet soda made with synthetically process sugar and preservatives that make Egyptian embalming fluids look like the basics in a Wal-Mart chemistry set.

Um. no, we wouldn't. I don't think that is compassionate either? I've been a vegetarian for 7 years if that means anything? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make lol.

You clearly suffer from the delusion that if one wants hard enough, it just becomes better.

reply with one quote that is remotely evidence for that.

I don't like animal abuse any more than you do. But I don't run into the wild and stop owls from stacking healthy mice, with 2 dozen healthy babies in their home, into their stomachs.

I don't either?

Maybe you haven't watched The Lion King lately, but just once line in it mentions that "we eat the antelope, the antelope eat the grass, and when we die, we become the grass." Well, real life is like that. It operates in a circle that builds upon itself. If it wasn't working, then explain the surplus of human life.

Pretty sure injecting neurotoxins (in this example) to induce artifical parkinsons is nowhere near natural. And the surplus of human life is kind of the exact opposite of the circle of life?

I don't need to complain about animal cruelty and murder any more than the next person, and I certainly don't like it, but it's real. Shit happens. I've accepted it. I'm not going to protest McDonald's for breeding animals to a state of superhealth simply for feeding a more-than-massive quantity of humans. I'm not going to protest taking animals born into medical labs for testing medicine on them either.

this is like the only thing you've said that semi makes sense. However I'm not sure why you think that it is a good idea todo nothing about something you think is wrong. Things can and do change, i.e. civil rights, women rights.

This leads me to my next point, one that I'm sure you will agree on. Pulling animals from their natural habitat to test on is wrong. They have life to live, whatever it may include, and it's already been established. But would you rather we grow animals, or better yet, humans, in test tubes and work science on them? Isn't that fitting into.this whole " Abortion is wrong! Killing a fetus is wrong. It's a living being, it deserves to live a full life, no matter how spoiled or horrible it might be forced into" argument. Or do you have some other sort of idea as to how to test medicine that doesn't get PETA and Human Rights extremists out of bed?

Yes I agree. I don't know about the test tubes because it hasn't happened yet. I don't think abortion is wrong. No I don't study medicine but I don't believe that the only way to conduct research is through torturing others? Again I don't know what point you are trying to make.

[Tangerine]

All animals are selfish. In the end our very basic, most primal instinct is the preservation of the human race, and we'll do anything to make sure it survives.

[Ein]

All animals are selfish. In the end our very basic, most primal instinct is the preservation of the human race, and we'll do anything to make sure it survives.

[Defeatist Elitist]

I'd be upset if they did it to apes, or if it was stupid pointless shit, but I can't really bring myself to be fussed over this. I mean, to put things in perspective, a large number of animals used for testing things in science are put down simply so they can be examined via autopsy. It is sort of selfish for us to kill other animals for our own benefit, but it's really just a matter of where you draw the line, and there is generally too little evidence of sentience and complex thought in monkeys for me to draw the line before them.

Let me put it this way. If this had led to a cure for Parkinson's, would you find it objectionable? Would you argue that we were better off with four more monkeys and no cure for Parkinson's? I mean, obviously there is no objectively correct answer to that, but still.

[Elieson]

Um. no, we wouldn't. I don't think that is compassionate either? I've been a vegetarian for 7 years if that means anything? I'm not sure what point you're trying to make lol.

--You got me there. I didn't know you were a vegetarian. My son is (yes, he is 10. Vegetarian for 4 years. Tough to work with based on our income, but we support him fully because it was his choice). So I can empathize. Sort of, anyway.--

reply with one quote that is remotely evidence for that.

I'm against this complete lack of compassion for other animals.

And if you still really really do feel like those monkeys deserved the torture and death because it could (but didn't) potentially find a cure for us, then you're the perfect example of how selfish we have become as a species. :/

Hmm...where to begin. Ok, tbh, I probably haven't said it clearly yet, but I feel bad for the monkeys. I wish they didn't have to die for medical study.

But we don't have a cure for Parkinson's, and 4 monkeys died. My assumption is that whatever they did will go down in scientific journals, never to be repeated again in future research. Hard to swallow? Yes. But, something was learned from it. Unless they forgot to take notes on it or something. Then it could easily be argued as murder.

We are a selfish species. We live to procreate and preserve ourselves. How you can possibly think otherwise is a bit strange to me. I mean, theoretically, if humankind devoted itself to their preservation of other species before its own, wouldn't humankind eventually die out, out dwindle down to the absolute best at survival?

haha yeah, hopefully. Maybe I'd forgive them then xD

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I interpret that as "even if they do find a cure, they killed animals in the process, so they are still wrong". I think it was the face at the end, or the "maybe" at the start...I'm not sure. That quote seems to support my statement, and I doubt I'm the only person who read it and thinks the way I do.

Pretty sure injecting neurotoxins (in this example) to induce artifical parkinsons is nowhere near natural. And the surplus of human life is kind of the exact opposite of the circle of life?

It isn't natural by thought, but look, we did it, and we can do it again. Couldn't you say that if it weren't natural, we wouldn't ever be able to emulate it? I mean look, we control life of other species of animals. We create new hybrids of life. I would assume that playing God isn't natural, but in a sense, we are pretty good at it, don't you think?

this is like the only thing you've said that semi makes sense. However I'm not sure why you think that it is a good idea todo nothing about something you think is wrong. Things can and do change, i.e. civil rights, women rights.

I'm not saying I think we should do nothing about it. Do you have the end all solution though? I know I don't. And until we find a way to magically assure that all medicine works all the time, what with evolving DNA, I'm not sure we will anytime soon. What do you suggest? Stop testing outright? I think I addressed that earlier. Test volunteers? I doubt that there will be a huge line at the doctors offices with willing participants to try out Aids and Parkinson's. Test those on death row? They are still people too, aren't they?

Yes I agree. I don't know about the test tubes because it hasn't happened yet. I don't think abortion is wrong. No I don't study medicine but I don't believe that the only way to conduct research is through torturing others? Again I don't know what point you are trying to make.

The point I was trying to make there was that right now there isn't anything better to do that everyone can agree on.

Also, all of this was posted from my phone. I apologize for any difficult to understand sentences

Edited March 13, 2012 by Elieson

[Aleph]

All animals are selfish. In the end our very basic, most primal instinct is the preservation of the human race, and we'll do anything to make sure it survives.

I thought you were a fruit?

I will consume you.

[uguu]

animals torture and kill other species of animal (and sometimes those of their own species!!)

humans are a species of animal

therefore, humans torture and kill other species of animal (and sometimes those of their own species!!)

[Death']

We are a selfish species. We live to procreate and preserve ourselves. How you can possibly think otherwise is a bit strange to me. I mean, theoretically, if humankind devoted itself to their preservation of other species before its own, wouldn't humankind eventually die out, out dwindle down to the absolute best at survival?

I think maybe we could still manage to survive without torturing others. I guess you're right, and it'd be unfortunate if it takes us longer to find cures for diseases... but in a way we're only dying from stuff like that because we live too long already. idk. And I don't know, extending our lives is awesome and all of course, but I'm kind of concerned that most people are so comfortable that it was at the cost of many other lives and general wellbeing, you know what I'm saying?

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but I interpret that as "even if they do find a cure, they killed animals in the process, so they are still wrong". I think it was the face at the end, or the "maybe" at the start...I'm not sure. That quote seems to support my statement, and I doubt I'm the only person who read it and thinks the way I do.

You're wrong. I forgive you.

It isn't natural by thought, but look, we did it, and we can do it again. Couldn't you say that if it weren't natural, we wouldn't ever be able to emulate it? I mean look, we control life of other species of animals. We create new hybrids of life. I would assume that playing God isn't natural, but in a sense, we are pretty good at it, don't you think?

no. maybe.

I'm not saying I think we should do nothing about it. Do you have the end all solution though? I know I don't. And until we find a way to magically assure that all medicine works all the time, what with evolving DNA, I'm not sure we will anytime soon. What do you suggest? Stop testing outright? I think I addressed that earlier. Test volunteers? I doubt that there will be a huge line at the doctors offices with willing participants to try out Aids and Parkinson's. Test those on death row? They are still people too, aren't they?

maybe we could just actually have some regulations on what you can and cannot do to animals. And have actual consequences when you kill them, so scientists are less likely to treat animals like objects and discard them whenever they want. And maybe even have like habitats for them so when they're not being experimented on they could socialize and hang out with their own species and whatnot. That'd be cool.

Well either way I'm glad you have at least some empathy for them.

also, you had a kid at age 14?

animals torture and kill other species of animal (and sometimes those of their own species!!)

humans are a species of animal

therefore, humans torture and kill other species of animal (and sometimes those of their own species!!)

wow I fucking hate that argument.

it's like when people only use religion when it works to their advantage.

Under your logic, humans should still have predators. We should be dying when we do not hunt or gather food like the rest of the animals.

Clearly that is incorrect. we have houses, television, abstract ideas about laws and money. We have higher executive functioning and are capable of feeling empathy and compassion. We are generally not really all that instinct based or nature-like. And when I hear stuff like this I feel like you're pushing all personal responsibility aside and blaming it on some really really generalized idea of "human nature".

Basically, that is a bullshit reason and I am disgusted that people actually think like that. I mean scientific research and potentially curing diseases I understand - that's the reason why I thought it was cool that we were debating about this. But wow "humans torture and kill because other animals do it!!!" is so fucking stupid you can't possibly genuinely believe it to be a solid argument (especially since other animals are nowhere near the extent we are at)?

Anyway. fuck. haha. I'm so tense. I am on a completely different wavelength than the rest of you so this is prob gonna be my last post here. I'm sorry, I can't help it, I somehow managed to be able to view other species as individuals that aren't that different from me, so I empathize with them and get really worked up when others think it's alright to abuse them.

If anyone even cares about the welfare of the remaining disabled monkeys >_> someone filed in a report and the scientists are currently under investigation. hopefully the monkeys will be seized and taken to a better environment to enjoy the rest of their lives.