Rewjeo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 [stuff] So first you say that gameplay is the only thing that matters and then say that it doesn't matter if it doesn't affect gameplay and the different magic types just have to exist? That's all that matters? I feel like I'm arguing with a creationist. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sakusa Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 First off, fusing axes/lances/swords doesn't make sense. Besides that, axe-only fighters are much more different from sword-only myrmidons than dark magic users typically are from light magic users. Irrelevant. I think this point is quite relevant. Can you honestly see a Fighter and a Myrmidon being treated as fundamentally the same class? Fighters have high base HP and STR, specialize in axes, can use bows on promotion, and have specialty weapons that can hit from 1-2 range and target defense. Myrmidons, for the most part, have lower STR than Fighters, but make up for it in SKL, SPD and higher critical rates. However, they're almost completely locked to melee range unless you get special 1-2 range swords that typically target RES. FE10 makes a bit of an exception for this, though. You can't expect Warriors to have the same sky-high critical rates as Swordmasters without a killer weapon and supports. Now look at the magic classes. Typically, most classes that specialize in tomes also get staves when they promote. While base and class stats are different, they're inherently the same. Unless IS gives each part of the triangle a significant advantage over the other, I don't see why each branch completely deserves their own special weapon rank. If you give Thunder Mages a class-wide crit bonus and Fire Mages a massive defense boost, or whatever makes the class more unique than "I say words that can kill people and target RES, and I can have Staves upon promotion, so it's okay!" then maybe that justifies a weapon split. Using Rewjeo's example: Shamans specialize in Dark and gain Staves on promotion. Monks specialize in Light and gain Staves upon promotion. There is no significant deciding factor on how they're used, because they both target RES and have low DEF on average, so they should be kept out of melee range in general, and they have Staff utility on promotion. You can try to argue that you can use the Druid on the front lines, but that's just not practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Arguing something is reasonable even if you don't like the way I do it, insulting people is wrong, stupid and against the rules. I win. You're yelling at people and insisting on a standpoint while giving no evidence to support the standpoint, contributing absolutely nothing to the discussion except insults. And you mention the rules? Do not make one-line posts, unless it adds something new or interesting to a discussion. In other words, do not spam. While I'm not sure why post length would be relevant, your posts are failing to add anything new or interesting to the discussion, and some of them are indeed one line. So how about you stop clogging up the actual discussion with your rants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 No, you don't win. You've been insulting people as well. With how STUPID you are. That's not an insult, the things you're saying are. And yes, arguing is something reasonable. Not the way you argue. You argue like a fucking 4 year old whose toy was taken away. I already took care of that, Arguing something is reasonable even if you don't like the way I do it How I do it is irrelevant. I think this point is quite relevant. Can you honestly see a Fighter and a Myrmidon being treated as fundamentally the same class? No, that's why merging weapon types is bad and shouldn't be done to Anima. Now look at the magic classes. Typically, most classes that specialize in tomes also get staves when they promote. While base and class stats are different, they're inherently the same. Unless IS gives each part of the triangle a significant advantage over the other, I don't see why each branch completely deserves their own special weapon rank. If you give Thunder Mages a class-wide crit bonus and Fire Mages a massive defense boost, or whatever makes the class more unique than "I say words that can kill people and target RES, and I can have Staves upon promotion, so it's okay!" then maybe that justifies a weapon split. Then they should do that instead of merging the weapon types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerine Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Arguing something is reasonable even if you don't like the way I do it, insulting people is wrong, stupid and against the rules. I win. You called eachother tools like 4 times there man, practice what you preach. And use a dictionary if you have to! This is a pretty pointless discussion, not even taking into account that it has devolved into an elementary school mud-slinging contest. The developers are going to do whatever they feel is a good idea, getting angry and turning on your caps lock isn't going to do anyone much good (or change their decision). Drop it and get back on topic. And by back on topic I don't mean start frothing about magic types again. Edited March 16, 2012 by Tangerine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanami Touko Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 That's not an insult, the things you're saying are. Hmm. IT'S FUCKING OBVIOUS! Don't ask stupid questions like that! Again with the idiotic questions... YOU CAN'T DO THAT!! IT DOESN'T FUCKING WORK!! That's stupid! It's an abysmal way to do it! And the lore is irrelevant, this is a gameplay mechanics issue, only gameplay mechanics are relevant. Cut out the rest of this part because it's using stupid lore logic instead of the relevant gameplay stuff. That would suck horribly Irrelevant. I cut out "all" your reasoning because it was very bad reasoning, merging or splitting Anima is an entirely gameplay based thing so only gameplay logic can be argued with it, lore needs to be cast to the wind. Also irrelevant. Right. Drop it and get back on topic. And by back on topic I don't mean start frothing about magic types again. I'd like to know why Liz's eyes turn massively anime in any of the CG cutscenes, when they're not that big on her portrait o 3 o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrashGordon94 Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Fine, I guess I'll just have to take it to GameFAQs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I read through all the pages,and I think Crash should just man up and deal with it. No point in crying over spilt milk, as they say. I liked how Magic was portrayed in the GBA titles, and I did not like how magic was portrayed through 9 to 11. Simplicity is how it should roll, I reckon. All the better if FE13 is going back to the GBA roots in terms of how it is portraying its magic. Just add more tomes for variation; maybe some tomes will have effects on certain unit types. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shun One Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I'm a bit indifferent as to how magic is handled. I will say that having Wind/Fire/Thunder mages did make it a bit more difficult to find a decent mage character to stick with. I usually choose a single mage to add to my final roster, so it's usually always the best one. It's more convenient for me if they can use all types of magic (Go Ewan GO!!!), but I can deal with them not being capable of such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Using Rewjeo's example: Shamans specialize in Dark and gain Staves on promotion. Monks specialize in Light and gain Staves upon promotion. There is no significant deciding factor on how they're used, because they both target RES and have low DEF on average, so they should be kept out of melee range in general, and they have Staff utility on promotion. You can try to argue that you can use the Druid on the front lines, but that's just not practical. See, this is an example of the games not doing enough to differentiate the magic users. There are solutions. To use Berwick Saga's magic users as an example: Irene: Uses Holy magic, mostly healing but can use a defensive combat spell. Has the Blessing skill, for small passive healing to nearby allies. Can promote early, and gains a personal healing spell after promoting. Aegina: Uses Fire magic for single heavy hits or Wind magic for repeated, weaker hits. Has a personal Wind spell, Pallas Rhiannon, able to hit as many as four times, but tends to not be accurate enough to hit with all of them. Passively charges her Focus skill, which can then be unleashed on command for a slight power bonus and a substantial accuracy bonus to ensure all hits. Pallas Rhiannon, like all ultimate spells, has limited durability but recovers some every few maps, allowing it to be used occasionally throughout the game. Sapphire: Uses Holy magic, mainly as a healer like Irene. Has to wait for an event late in the game to promote, but after doing so, learns multiple skills to protect against enemy magic and gains a personal attacking Holy spell with high power. Owen: Primarily functions as a higher-level healer, but can use Fire/Wind/Thunder magic as well for offense. However, he lacks the proficiency with any of them to use them effectively. After an event late in the game, he can use Dark magic as well, but his access is too limited to do much with it. Enide: Starts out with access to just swords, but gains Fire and Thunder magic after promotion, as well as a ridiculously powerful personal Fire spell, Pallas Leia. She's even more powerful and accurate with Fire magic than Aegina, and can hit at an increased distance with Thunder magic. Pallas Leia is her most notable characteristic, allowing her to blast through even some of the toughest enemies with its insane 32 Mt, especially if she uses Focus for the power boost. Like Aegina with Pallas Rhiannon, she can use it occasionally, but not constantly. Percival: Uses Wind and Thunder magic, with a preference for Thunder magic. His Mag stat is higher than Aegina's, giving him a substantial damage bonus with Wind's multi-hit spells, but he has less skill with the weapon type, giving him less accuracy with it and less chance of landing all of the hits. He has a few useful combat skills, including Dodge Arrows, allowing him to fight enemy archers to great effect with Thunder magic's increased range. Paramythia: Has swords, Holy magic, and a horse, as the game's only mounted healer. She joins late in the game, but from the start, she's fantastic both in combat and with healing. She's also the only playable character with access to Maces, but they're rare enough that it's unlikely to matter much. Can be nice if you get any extra Dark Maces, though. Lynette: Has swords, bows, and Thunder magic. She's only available in the final chapter, giving her the opportunity to pretty much continuously use her two personal weapons, Selenia Bow and Pallas Selenia, during that time: both have increased range and high power. She also has multiple skills, giving substantial bonuses to the rest of your team just by being near them, most notably setting Reese's critical hit rate to 100% while next to him. It's worth noting that while many of these abilities are extreme, none of them are overpowered: you just have to do that sort of crazy stuff in order to make it through the game, and they all offer different ways of going about it, resulting in differences between characters and their weapons that actually matter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rewjeo Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I would like magic to be more diverse/important in general. Instead of having eight physical units, a healer, and one offensive magic user at most, I would like to see it be more 50/50 and require units to be used together more rather than each basically doing the same thing. I think the problem goes deeper than just having multiple weapon types- I feel like FE could use more unit diversity in general. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I would like magic to be more diverse/important in general. Instead of having eight physical units, a healer, and one offensive magic user at most, I would like to see it be more 50/50 and require units to be used together more rather than each basically doing the same thing. I think the problem goes deeper than just having multiple weapon types- I feel like FE could use more unit diversity in general. Indeed, these are my feelings. It's the main thing I've been trying to demonstrate with the Berwick Saga examples, as ways it can happen. Ways characters can truly play in different ways from each other. More diversity of magic types and even weapon types can play a huge role in that, but only if the groups are actually used by different characters and just as importantly, actually play substantially different rather than having tiny Mt/Hit/Wt differences. Edited March 16, 2012 by Othin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiff Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 Can you honestly see a Fighter and a Myrmidon being treated as fundamentally the same class? In FE5 they weren't really that different at all. And I kind of liked how FE5 handled axe-users more than the other games do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Banzai Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 There may still be a different weapon rank for Light and Dark tomes, so why are we complaining? I always thought the Wind/Thunder/Fire triangle was pointless and overly complicated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Tarrasque Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) In FE5 they weren't really that different at all. And I kind of liked how FE5 handled axe-users more than the other games do. Yeah, the bulky "Fighter" we've all come to know was pretty much the "Mountain Thief" class that promotes to Warrior in FE5. Axe/Sword Fighter looked pretty similar, they were sort of the same thing with a different weapon lock and promotion possibilities. SwordFighter would go on to be SwordMaster which would make you assume that this is the "Myrmidon" of FE except you have Machua, a Female SwordFighter that promotes to Hero while at the same time Mareeta existed with the same class and promoted to SwordMaster. The 2 AxeFighters were stuck to just Hero promotion though they could've been given Warrior or Berserker, who knows. Personally I'd like to see some promotions be character specific like Machua/Mareeta or Asvel/Miranda's situation. Edited March 16, 2012 by Sirius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Lord Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 For reals, you guys are still arguing about magic ? you know no matter what you say and see is better it will not change the game magic system....this is like the most pointless argument I ever seen.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caladbolg Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 In FE5 they weren't really that different at all. And I kind of liked how FE5 handled axe-users more than the other games do. There are eight generations between FE5 and FE13, you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Lord Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Yeah, the bulky "Fighter" we've all come to know was pretty much the "Mountain Thief" class that promotes to Warrior in FE5. Axe/Sword Fighter looked pretty similar, they were sort of the same thing with a different weapon lock and promotion possibilities. SwordFighter would go on to be SwordMaster which would make you assume that this is the "Myrmidon" of FE except you have Machua, a Female SwordFighter that promotes to Hero while at the same time Mareeta existed with the same class and promoted to SwordMaster. The 2 AxeFighters were stuck to just Hero promotion though they could've been given Warrior or Berserker, who knows. Personally I'd like to see some promotions be character specific like Machua/Mareeta or Asvel/Miranda's situation. I think we all can agree the promotion system present in Fire Emblem 8 is the best system....although it wasn't perfect but it was great.....specially the Ranger class it was a relief for all the archers tbh :).... Indeed, these are my feelings. It's the main thing I've been trying to demonstrate with the Berwick Saga examples, as ways it can happen. Ways characters can truly play in different ways from each other. More diversity of magic types and even weapon types can play a huge role in that, but only if the groups are actually used by different characters and just as importantly, actually play substantially different rather than having tiny Mt/Hit/Wt differences. I know how great the Berwick Saga is but (this a prescriptive of some who didn't play the and just saw it on youtube) the game seems to be slowpaced and dull compared to Fire Emblem still the gameplay seems way better :). Edited March 16, 2012 by Brave Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I know how great the Berwick Saga is but (this a prescriptive of some who didn't play the and just saw it on youtube) the game seems to be slowpaced and dull compared to Fire Emblem still the gameplay seems way better :). Please elaborate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Lord Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) Please elaborate. as I said I didn't play it, it's just the videos I watched so what ever I'm spewing might not be existing at all...but when I saw the gameplay it seemed boring...although it seems way more tactic-dependent than Fire Emblem. Edited March 16, 2012 by Brave Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Emblem Lugh Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 I told I didn't play it it's just I saw videos so what ever I'm might not be existing at all...but when I saw the gameplay it seemed boring...although it seems way more tactic-dependent than Fire Emblem. What strategy RPG isn't boring to watch? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Lord Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 What strategy RPG isn't boring to watch? Lol, spot on xD but I get bored more when watching Brewick saga.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Othin Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 as I said I didn't play it, it's just the videos I watched so what ever I'm spewing might not be existing at all...but when I saw the gameplay it seemed boring...although it seems way more tactic-dependent than Fire Emblem. I'm just curious if you can think of any particular reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raven Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 For reals, you guys are still arguing about magic ? you know no matter what you say and see is better it will not change the game magic system....this is like the most pointless argument I ever seen.... I dunno man, I was just stating my opinion. No arguments coming from this corner, hah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Lord Posted March 16, 2012 Share Posted March 16, 2012 (edited) I dunno man, I was just stating my opinion. No arguments coming from this corner, hah. Raven you are awesome for just liking Raven :)...I will be pissed if this game didn't have a Merc or a badass Hero that's so broken he can solo the game xD. Edit: Guys what do you think if the Plot special promotion of Krom = Hero King where his sister will leave the throne or die and he will become a King ? Edited March 16, 2012 by Brave Lord Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.