Golden Sun Mafia

[eclipse]

I am disappointed that the game didn't end with the entire thing being canceled. That was a horrible game, and you should both be ashamed for not even trying to balance it.

[Bluedoom]

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

So Impy redirected the kill to eclipse?

Also, I should've shut my mouth on C1. >.<

[Grace]

lolwut

how even did that happen.

I'm going to assume that Tiny's djinn was ready to use this phase, which means town wins. Wow.

And Blitzy, nice third party playoff in your hidden message to me. Also, screw you. You prevented me from reviving Prims. No wonder I couldn't be told why my action failed on C2. GRR

[Percivalé]

hey manix i used my djinn on you the night you were poisoned c:

[Grace]

I am disappointed that the game didn't end with the entire thing being canceled. That was a horrible game, and you should both be ashamed for not even trying to balance it.

Nyeh? My mind isn't working right now, explain why it wasn't balanced? If I could think it through, I'd probably figure it out...

[Iris]

lolwut

how even did that happen.

I'm going to assume that Tiny's djinn was ready to use this phase, which means town wins. Wow.

And Blitzy, nice third party playoff in your hidden message to me. Also, screw you. You prevented me from reviving Prims. No wonder I couldn't be told why my action failed on C2. GRR

well, Blitz got modkilled, Tiny used her djinn on Eclipse (Good Tiny~! :D) --- and so Eclipse would get lynched over her / tie.

[Grace]

hey manix i used my djinn on you the night you were poisoned c:

ohhhhhhh

That's why Snike died. I see.

[Kriemhild]

Impy's ability and Djinn were both available. Blitzy's early phase end freed her from the restrictions. She chose to use her Djinn, which took Clipsey! down.

Also, we DID try to balance it, and even now, I don't really see how it was unbalanced. I'm not claiming that it was balanced, there were a lot of crazy abilities, but I can't just see any side having an advantage over the others.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Luster Purge

[Grace]

So let me ask something: What were the abilities Blitzy got when each lighthouse was lit? Just curious. (So, he got a investigative part, a early phase end (?) and other stuff)

[eclipse]

Right. Because having four mislynches and two revivals is balanced.

[Paperblade]

Impy's ability and Djinn were both available. Blitzy's early phase end freed her from the restrictions. She chose to use her Djinn, which took Clipsey! down.

Also, we DID try to balance it, and even now, I don't really see how it was unbalanced. I'm not claiming that it was balanced, there were a lot of crazy abilities, but I can't just see any side having an advantage over the others.

I'll try to list things constructively from what I noticed for the ~cycle of play and what I read

1. Hidden players suck and I have never seen them work out

2. Mafia was overly reliant on Marth's role which was probably as powerful as the rest of our roles combined (discounting djinn but eclipse/Ether's djinn were awful) meant it was problematic if he died early (like he did).

3. Hidden players suck

4. I don't entirely know how the Djinn pool worked but they also had a huge disparity in power which could further skew things

5. Hidden players suck

6. Blitz knowing there was no alliance cop/inspect of any kind (?) combined with the fact that there was a miller/godfather gave him a huge advantage with fakeclaiming because he could make shit up and even people who are used to no-cop games (such as Prims) would likely believe him at least for one cycle

7. Hidden players shouldn't exist

[Paperblade]

btw did I mention that I don't like hidden players

[Percivalé]

[12:52:39 AM] Brad: posted

[12:53:41 AM] Brad: I should write like

[12:53:45 AM] Brad: an essay

[12:53:48 AM] Brad: on why hidden players suck

[12:53:51 AM] Brad: But then

[12:53:56 AM] Brad: people who aren't dumb

[12:54:01 AM] Brad: know not to make hidden players

[12:54:20 AM] Levity: write a five-page essay

[12:54:22 AM] Levity: MLA-style

[12:54:24 AM] Iris: do it

[12:54:25 AM] Levity: with citations

[12:54:30 AM] Brad: lol

[12:54:46 AM] Iris: [12:54 AM] Levity:

<<< with citations

very important

[12:54:48 AM] Brad: "as you can see in this game, even when people are made aware of hidden players, they are still bullshit because you don't know who is hidden and thus you have people effectively having actions randomly fail"

[12:54:51 AM] Iris: maybe even a research paper if you get ambitious

[Paperblade]

[10:54:43 PM] Kaoz: why does the town win?

[10:54:49 PM] Brad: because Shinori's djinn

[10:54:51 PM] Brad: siphons votes

[10:55:06 PM] Kaoz: so? no lynch this cycle according to the rules

[10:55:20 PM] Brad: oh shit

[10:55:33 PM] Kaoz: what?

[10:55:44 PM] Brad: wait which rule

[10:55:45 PM] Brad: is that

[10:55:55 PM] Brad: er wait wrong thread

[10:56:00 PM] Kaoz: rule 7 or something says that when there's a modkill, there is no lynch

[10:56:22 PM] Kaoz: it also says though that the cycle doesn't automatically end with a modkill, hence our killing action is still valid

[10:56:43 PM] Brad: If a person is modkilled, all votes for that phase are completely null and void. There will be no lynch in that phase.

[10:56:50 PM] Kaoz: yes

[10:56:59 PM] Kaoz: it says nothing about phase end time though

edit: hidden players still suck

Edited April 27, 2012 by Paperblade

[Kaoz]

Learn to apply your own rules guys, it's not a hard concept.

The winner of this game is us.

[Prims]

eclipse was kinda obvious for not having any concrete stances until like... day 3 or so. This is why prodding lurkers on D1 is bad, scum can do it for a free pass without actually scumhunting. Not sure I would've caught Paperblade without him claiming scum to me after I died. Marth was lol and Ether's posts just oozed sliminess to the extent that I would've been surprised if he didn't flip scum even though it was just a gut read. Kaoz was a good replacement though.

That said, Kay is probably town MVP. TOO BAD SHE FORGOT TO REFRESH BEFORE UNVOTING AND NOBODY LISTENED TO HER

A lot of the roles were pretty interesting but invisible SK is fucking awful.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Prims

[eclipse]

My apologies for finding FE12 more interesting. This IS SF, and drafting's more fun than a game where I have to wonder what the hell Proto was thinking making me mayor.

[eclipse]

Also:

If a person is modkilled, all votes for that phase are completely null and void. There will be no lynch in that phase.

Read your own damn rules.

[Grace]

That seems to be an inconsistency: When BBM was modkilled, someone was still lynched that cycle (C4). That precedent, if is the case, is fine for this situation, but yet it clearly goes against the rules as stated (#7, for reference). Why the inconsistency with the rules, hmm?

I didn't think of that possibly being the case. huh

Edited April 27, 2012 by Manix

[Kriemhild]

Kaoz and Clipsey!, you brought that up in the PM already. If there was to be a No Lynch, you wouldn't be able to bypass the Nexus. One-on-one, Impy would have won, regardless of whether the lynch was allowed or cancelled.

But in all honesty, I don't care one bit about who won. This is a game, and winning in a game that I helped design is completely meaningless. I believe the purpose of any game is to entertain the players and let them enjoy it. The last thing I care about is who won or who deserved to win. If you guys enjoyed it, even if it was unbalanced or whatever, then to me, this game has fulfilled its purpose. If you guys didn't enjoy it for whatever reason, then I apologize for being so terrible at hosting games.

Oh, and it was also very experimental. I wanted to see how these abilities work, and I got nice results for most of them (I kinda wish Strawman and BBM were able to use their Djinn, since I felt they had real potential).

EDIT: Manix, BBM's lynch was different. I'm pretty sure there was a rule where I said that the way modkills are handled are to reduce the total damage that arises from it. If I ended the cycle without a lynch, but allowed the Mafia to kill, that seems like hurting the Town even more after they just lost their Watcher without getting ANY benefit from it. I informed the Mafia beforehand and they were okay with it.

Edited April 27, 2012 by Luster Purge

[Paperblade]

However, at the same time, games should not be so imbalanced that people feel like they didn't stand a chance, because it makes them bitter. Also, when games are imbalanced, it encourages people to not try because they have less control over the outcome of a game, which overall decreases their involvement/enjoyment.

[eclipse]

No, I do not enjoy games which are both unbalanced AND where I have to remind the hosts about rule enforcement. Therefore, your game did not do its job, in my eyes.

[Strawman]

Oh, and it was also very experimental. I wanted to see how these abilities work, and I got nice results for most of them (I kinda wish Strawman and BBM were able to use their Djinn, since I felt they had real potential).

I would have but I knew if I did use it it would be the freakin one time someone actually freakin targeted me in this game lol. So I didn't want to mess up the potential of my actual role. Also, what is up with t=whenever I get a role that has something to do with when people target me, literally only 1 person targets me. So lame. /rant

[Kaoz]

Kaoz and Clipsey!, you brought that up in the PM already. If there was to be a No Lynch, you wouldn't be able to bypass the Nexus. One-on-one, Impy would have won, regardless of whether the lynch was allowed or cancelled.

I hate to be an asshole here, but that's not true. For once, she would have needed to input her action (did she?), secondly the Nexus redirects actions, however your wording in our PM shows that kills by themselves aren't actions, hence they don't trigger it.

[Kriemhild]

However, at the same time, games should not be so imbalanced that people feel like they didn't stand a chance, because it makes them bitter. Also, when games are imbalanced, it encourages people to not try because they have less control over the outcome of a game, which overall decreases their involvement/enjoyment.

I don't recall any player ever saying they felt they didn't stand a chance. Also, if you're claiming the game is unbalanced, are you implying that it was Town-sided? Because that wasn't obvious to me at all, when the Mafia had a Djinnblocker to put Djinn on Standby, a Mayor to use those Djinn and others on Standby, and a Softener to further amplify all those votes. And someone who could save their allies from lynches and gets to act as a Ninja, Hitman, or Janitor. At the start of the game, I certainly did not think it was Town-sided. If it turned out Town-sided afterwards, it's a result of player decisions, not from game design.

No, I do not enjoy games which are both unbalanced AND where I have to remind the hosts about rule enforcement. Therefore, your game did not do its job, in my eyes.

...I still don't see how it's unbalanced. Rule enforcement? I was too busy yesterday to modkill Blitz, not to mention I wanted to see who Impy would vote for. Blitz being modkilled would have been a guaranteed Town victory, and I wanted to see if the Mafia had any chance of winning if Blitzy didn't do that.

I would have but I knew if I did use it it would be the freakin one time someone actually freakin targeted me in this game lol. So I didn't want to mess up the potential of my actual role. Also, what is up with t=whenever I get a role that has something to do with when people target me, literally only 1 person targets me. So lame. /rant

Reinfleche brought that up as well. Roles like that somehow end up with you, who few people visit.

I hate to be an asshole here, but that's not true. For once, she would have needed to input her action (did she?), secondly the Nexus redirects actions, however your wording in our PM shows that kills by themselves aren't actions, hence they don't trigger it.

"Once in every cycle, you may choose to send any Guardian to kill another player. This will be treated as an addition to the killer's current action, and is not involved with the actions/Djinn restrictions."

It mentions that they're not involved with the actions/Djinn restrictions. As in, you can kill and use a Djinn at the same time, or that Blues could use Guard/Refresh Ball and kill at the same time, etc. Never did I see a game where kills aren't treated as actions and don't get redirected (unless the redirection specifically doesn't apply to kills).