Regarding recent decisions and the community's attitude.

[Onmi]

Yeah, but if it's the only thing a contributor is gonna get, why should he contribute in the first place?

Even random removal of sentences or ones that had their meaning completely changed? Sure let's go with that.

For people who wants to delve the legal issues: I'll post these links Balcerzak has shared with me.

http://www.bokorlang...33copyright.htm

http://librarycopyri...pic.php?id=1466

http://www.cblesius....anslations.html

Jyosua just brushed them off with a "I'm right and these are wrong", but they could prove to be interesting.

You could also argue that the translation fall into fair use since it's a derivative work that is non-commercial and isn't affecting Nintendo's market in any way.

Of course, that's under American law so it doesn't really mattter if you consider FireLizard's script a Japanese work.

As said though, this isn't the point, and since I don't have much knowledge about this, I will leave it at that. If you want to go on with this. Feel free. I don't mind.

Yeah, fansubbers (and some groups working on video game translations too) will even usually take down their work without being asked when an anime (video game) is licensed because it's how they show their support and just basic manners really. Things some people here completely lack.

"You all lack basic manners, so let me backhandedly insult the entire community" You realize how much of a hypocrite you look like right?

[Tangerine]

That is a bit uncalled for, I mean the thread has been relatively void of the trolling/insults I expected :P. Couldn't hurt to keep the attitude out of it!

Edited April 23, 2012 by Tangerine

[Marthur]

Things some people here completely lack.

"You all lack basic manners, so let me backhandedly insult the entire community" You realize how much of a hypocrite you look like right?

No. Not really.

There are people here who do respect them and I do find that great.

[Onmi]

No. Not really.

There are people here who do respect them and I do find that great.

My mistake "I'll backhandedly insult most of the community" The difference is staggering of course.

[Lux Aeterna]

My mistake "I'll backhandedly insult most of the community" The difference is staggering of course.

"I always twist other people's words."

My mistake "I nearly always twist other people's words." The difference is staggering, of course.

Most =/= Some, if you haven't noticed.

[eclipse]

The takedown of Marthur's works don't affect me. Do what you will.

[Onmi]

"I always twist other people's words."

My mistake "I nearly always twist other people's words." The difference is staggering, of course.

Most =/= Some, if you haven't noticed.

If it was the actions of a few, she wouldn't have posted an entire topic about how, and I quote.

I refuse to do any more work for a community that's simply greedy and disrespectful towards one's work.

Now she's saying she respects a few members of the community, now you're trying to say she's only upset with a few, well a FEW isn't the community, no matter their position. Yet she makes a topic calling out, and again I quote

the community's attitude.

Tell me Nox, how am I supposed to take that?

[TheEnd]

Tell me Nox, how am I supposed to take that?

Personally.

[Onmi]

Personally.

Thank you, that was rhetorical.

[Laureola]

Personally.

This is my policy about things on the Internet.

[Esau of Isaac]

Yeah, but if it's the only thing a contributor is gonna get, why should he contribute in the first place?

Even random removal of sentences or ones that had their meaning completely changed? Sure let's go with that.

For people who wants to delve the legal issues: I'll post these links Balcerzak has shared with me.

http://www.bokorlang.com/journal/33copyright.htm

http://librarycopyright.net/wordpress/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=1466

http://www.cblesius.co.uk/articles/CopyrightAndTheTranslator-WhoOwnsYourTranslations.html

Jyosua just brushed them off with a "I'm right and these are wrong", but they could prove to be interesting.

You could also argue that the translation fall into fair use since it's a derivative work that is non-commercial and isn't affecting Nintendo's market in any way.

Of course, that's under American law so it doesn't really mattter if you consider FireLizard's script a Japanese work.

As said though, this isn't the point, and since I don't have much knowledge about this, I will leave it at that. If you want to go on with this. Feel free. I don't mind.

Yeah, fansubbers (and some groups working on video game translations too) will even usually take down their work without being asked when an anime (video game) is licensed because it's how they show their support and just basic manners really. Things some people here completely lack.

Let's leave legality out of this since I'm fairly sure nothing could possibly come of it either way: Why does it seriously matter that someone's content is being modified, with or without their permission, for a non-commercial product? Why do you honestly care if someone fucks up your hard work when it is in no way affecting your hard work?

Like, Christ, if all of this is complaining regarding people using a Japanese translation when someone won't even answer, then hey, I'm willing to help pitch in and make another one that everyone can use. This whole situation is silly and should not be a problem

[Lux Aeterna]

If it was the actions of a few, she wouldn't have posted an entire topic about how, and I quote.

Now she's saying she respects a few members of the community, now you're trying to say she's only upset with a few, well a FEW isn't the community, no matter their position. Yet she makes a topic calling out, and again I quote

Tell me Nox, how am I supposed to take that?

Foiled again by pedantry! Now I must go and reflect upon the fact that I have been bested by someone who knows the antonym of my username!

... Except, once again, Few =/= Some.

And the way you're using "most" makes it sound like he's insulting 95% of the community. "Most" could mean 51%. Or 50.9%. Or 50.000001%. That's stil most, right? Well, no. That's the majority. "Most" signifies a /large/ majority. In fact, Marthur doesn't even have to target the majority in order to make this topic. Admittedly, "the community" signifies majority, but it's also possible he wasn't splitting hairs. It's still a big issue if 40% is taking work without his permission, or 30%, or even 20%.

You don't see the majority of the community doing that, but to him, enough of the community was doing it that he decided to stop, regardless of the numbers.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Lux Aeterna

[Popo]

... Except, once again, Few =/= Some.

Are you still arguing about this?

I think the point here might be that at least some of us are feeling slightly offended. I know I am. If Marthur's entire point was not to bring up a legal issue but a moral one, then I'm a little annoyed that there's an assumption that those of us making edits are out to do dishonest or malicious acts. We aren't, and if that still isn't what Marthur is on about, then I give up because I'm totally lost. If you want to remove your stuff, great. No loss to me, though that's too bad if other people enjoyed using your stuff/looking at your art/etc. I think it's petty and I doubt you're going to get the resolution you want out of Josh.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Popo

[Onmi]

Foiled again by pedantry! Now I must go and reflect upon the fact that I have been bested by someone who knows the antonym of my username!

... Except, once again, Few =/= Some.

And the way you're using "most" makes it sound like he's insulting 95% of the community. "Most" could mean 51%. Or 50.9%. Or 50.000001%. That's stil most, right? Well, no. That's the majority. "Most" signifies a /large/ majority. In fact, Marthur doesn't even have to target the majority in order to make this topic. Admittedly, "the community" signifies majority, but it's also possible he wasn't splitting hairs. It's still a big issue if 40% is taking work without his permission, or 30%, or even 20%.

You don't see the majority of the community doing that, but to him, enough of the community was doing it that he decided to stop, regardless of the numbers.

Her. Marthur is a her.

Also TECHNICALLY? No ones taken anyones work yet. So this is much ado about nothing, like that play 'Much adieu about Nothing' only instead of Nothing being a play on words to refer to vagina's since that was the slang at the time, thus the play meaning 'Much adieu about Vaginas' what I mean is Much adieu about Nothing, meaning there's a whole lot of bitching about something that hasn't technically happened yet.

It's Schrodinger bitch.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Onmi

[Ar-Wing Pilot]

So, quick question, if I understand this whole problem correctly:

What would be the problem with sending messages to Fire Lizard, mentioning that we intend to use his scripts for translations, and that if he wanted them removed, we would be able take them down? That way, if he does not want us using his scripts, then he would have the right to force people to use others, but if he simply didn't care (and let's face it, if he doesn't respond, he probably doesn't care all that much), people here would have no problem.

Everyone wins, yes?

Her. Marthur is a her.

Protip: He's not, actually.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Sinistar

[Popo]

So, quick question, if I understand this whole problem correctly:

What would be the problem with sending messages to Fire Lizard, mentioning that we intend to use his scripts for translations, and that if he wanted them removed, we would be able take them down? That way, if he does not want us using his scripts, then he would have the right to force people to use others, but if he simply didn't care (and let's face it, if he doesn't respond, he probably doesn't care all that much), people here would have no problem.

Everyone wins, yes?

Because I've done that twice and both messages failed to reach his inbox. No one else has provided us with good information we can follow up on.

[James Bond]

Protip: He's not, actually.

oh you...

[Ar-Wing Pilot]

Because I've done that twice and both messages failed to reach his inbox. No one else has provided us with good information we can follow up on.

I get the feeling that if he found out about all of this, he would wonder why there's so much adieu about this.

[Onmi]

So, quick question, if I understand this whole problem correctly:

What would be the problem with sending messages to Fire Lizard, mentioning that we intend to use his scripts for translations, and that if he wanted them removed, we would be able take them down? That way, if he does not want us using his scripts, then he would have the right to force people to use others, but if he simply didn't care (and let's face it, if he doesn't respond, he probably doesn't care all that much), people here would have no problem.

Everyone wins, yes?

Protip: He's not, actually.

Oh Joy. An It. screw it I'll just save myself the pronoun trouble and refer to it with slurs.

[Popo]

I get the feeling that if he found out about all of this, he would wonder why there's so much adieu about this.

I would agree with you, especially since he seemed pretty okay with people using his stuff a few years ago. :/

[Death']

Her. Marthur is a her.

lolololololol

[Lux Aeterna]

Are you still arguing about this?

I think the point here might be that at least some of us are feeling slightly offended. I know I am. If Marthur's entire point was not to bring up a legal issue but a moral one, then I'm a little annoyed that there's an assumption that those of us making edits are out to do dishonest or malicious acts. We aren't, and if that still isn't what Marthur is on about, then I give up because I'm totally lost. If you want to remove your stuff, great. No loss to me, though that's too bad if other people enjoyed using your stuff/looking at your art/etc. I think it's petty and I doubt you're going to get the resolution you want out of Josh.

I think you're misunderstanding me. I am not claiming that you all take works and changed them in an attempt to be, erm, dastardly. Rather, I'm saying, one should respect the author's wishes, regardless of what that one person may or may not believe. That's the "morality" I'm talking about.

It doesn't matter what you think, or what the artist thinks. It's what the artist wants. Like, Nintenlord is fine with his work being used and changed, but Marthur isn't. So, rather than arguing over what you think is right and what he thinks is right, why not just respect his wishes?

[Mikethfc]

Her. Marthur is a her.

Protip: He's not, actually.

Since when did Schrodinger start doing sex-change ops?

[Jyosua]

Because I've done that twice and both messages failed to reach his inbox. No one else has provided us with good information we can follow up on.

I sent a message like that over LJ, in case he ever returns there. That way, at least I know it was delivered.

Also, for clarification:

Marthur twisted my words a bit in that first post.

Here's what I said, word for word:

Regardless, that's not the issue here. There's a difference. Were Firelizard active in the past 5 years, had it been possible to contact him, and had he requested that we remove these modification threads, we would.

We will respect the wishes of the authors of particular works if they are around to voice their opinions. That means, if you can contact the author, you are required to do so. But if people wish to restrict the use of their works, they need to actively do so. If there's no longer any way to contact the author, well... too bad. If they come back later we'll do damage control.

It's funny how blatantly infringing someone else's copyright (by say, translating it) is A-ok, but as soon as someone uses your own work in some way everyone is up in arms.

Anyhow, as far as your own works, you can remove them if you'd like, and I really don't care one way or another. But as long as you're around, we will not allow people to copy or modify them without your permission. But protecting the rights of your work is mostly your job, we'll just enforce it.

Not that when I say "as long as you're around" it really means "as long as you have valid contact information and have been active in relatively recent times". You don't have to be a member of this community for use to defend the rights to your work. You DO have to make an effort enough to keep your contact information updated.

We are not giving free reign to plagiarize or blatantly steal. We never will. However, in this specific case, Firelizard has allowed the use of his work with the translation patch that Eaichu, Tiltyu, and several other including myself, helped to make. Popo is simply modifying and improving that work, and given that she has the permission of the creators of that patch (protip: she does) there really is no issue with her using his translation.

Firelizard has absolutely no means of contacting him. Something that is highly important if one wants to keep track of where there work is used is keeping a current method of contact at all times. His email address has been deactivated, his LJ is no longer active, and he never logs on AIM anymore. He has allowed the use of his translations in the past for patches, so it's not like he would be adamantly opposed although as you mention he was sometimes wary at first. Everyone has been trying to contact him; I have tried to contact him myself, but also to no avail. As long as he is outright credited, given the circumstances I'm allowing it. Tangerine has said she was going to overturn it as well, but I got there first.

On the subject of copyrights, see my response here:

Additionally, on the subject of translations, they are often (ESPECIALLY in the US) not viewed as original enough to qualify as derivative works unless it's something like the Poetic Edda or the Iliad where the work is public domain and you can translate from the original text. Because of this, the translated work (even if you are PAID to translate it!) is still viewed as the property of the original work's author, to the point where they don't even have to credit the translator! This has been an issue translators have been fighting for years, but copyright and patent reform is something that is slow moving, and may not occur anytime soon.

This is the end of this discussion. This issue is a very rare exception to the norm and my authority is not to be questioned on this. If you wish to be childish and remove your work in retaliation, that is your prerogative, but you're not hurting me - just the others on this forum or part of the FE community.

That's pretty much my views on the issue. I'm pretty well-aware of copyright law, but the underlying issue here is that FireLizard could be dead for all we know. If he comes back and expresses that he does not approve of his work being used in this manner, I'll first yell at him for not keeping an active email listed and we'll remove any traces of it.

But as far as legal issues, translations in general can not be copyrighted unless you're translating a public-domain work from an original text. Copyright law is fucking dumb, I know.

[Marthur]

Let's leave legality out of this since I'm fairly sure nothing could possibly come of it either way: Why does it seriously matter that someone's content is being modified, with or without their permission, for a non-commercial product? Why do you honestly care if someone fucks up your hard work when it is in no way affecting your hard work?

Because people usually want to retain some control over their work. And that's probably the reason for FireLizard's disclaimer.

Does the sole reason that "he's gone" allow you to take hold of his work? I personnally don't think so.

And it could affect me. With Jyosua's decision, it's okay to change AceNoctali or Summerwolf's script without permission in the ending generator for instance, on the simple reason that "they have been gone for a while and aren't contactable" (And I know I've had trouble contacting Ace, but he has managed to reappear several times) and I don't wish to facilitate that (especially since I'm pretty sure that, at least the former wouldn't want his work to be tampered with.) I've also done some translation work in my days, so...

Are you still arguing about this?

I think the point here might be that at least some of us are feeling slightly offended. I know I am. If Marthur's entire point was not to bring up a legal issue but a moral one, then I'm a little annoyed that there's an assumption that those of us making edits are out to do dishonest or malicious acts. We aren't, and if that still isn't what Marthur is on about, then I give up because I'm totally lost.

I've already told you I don't mind about your project since you have Eaichu's blessing.

No loss to me.

None to me either.

I like how you're saying I twisted your words when you had to make this justification:

Not that when I say "as long as you're around" it really means "as long as you have valid contact information and have been active in relatively recent times". You don't have to be a member of this community for use to defend the rights to your work. You DO have to make an effort enough to keep your contact information updated.

But okay.

Edited April 23, 2012 by Marthur